Sargun Upashna Vs. Idol Worship

[namdhari555]

Sargun Upashna, using a statue of a devi devta or guru to focus and still the mind, then moving to the next stage. But what i want to know is what is the difference between sargun worship and idol worship, because gurbani contemns idol worship. Maybe im misunderstanding something.

ਬੁਤ ਪੂਜਿ ਪੂਜਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਏ ਤੁਰਕ ਮੂਏ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਾਈ ॥

Worshipping their idols, the Hindus die; the Muslims die bowing their heads.

ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless.

ਜੇ ਏਹ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਹੈ ਤਉ ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ ਖਾਉ ॥੩॥
If this stone god was true, it would devour the sculptor for this!

ਪਾਹਨ ਬੋਰੀ ਪਿਰਥਮੀ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪਾੜੀ ਬਾਟ ॥੧੩੭॥
The stone idols have drowned the world, and the Pandits, the religious scholars, have plundered it on the way.

Edited January 15, 2014 by namdhari555

[namdhari555]

Bump

[Lazy Sewadar]

Nowadays in hindu temples throughout India all one finds is idol-worship, pure and simple. As quoted above, this is merely drowning people in thoughtless, spiritual impotence and subservience to Pandits that steal their time and finances.

However when a murti pran pratishtha is performed, the idea is to invite Parabrahm's energy (in the form of the deity invoked) into the physical item that is the focus of the ceremony (i.e. the murti). The idea is not to imprison God in a small pot, as is so often unfortunately the case, but rather create a doorway to His mercy (i.e. a Haridwar/Gurudwar). When Guruji says

Dehraa maseet soee poojaa ai nivaaj oee, maanas sabai ek pai anek ko bhramaao hai

The temple and the mosque are the same, there is no difference between Hindu worship and Muslim prayer; all human beings are really the same; their differences are illusory.

some legitimacy is given (by an unquestionable source) to worship performed before a murti vis-a-vis worship performed without one.

It is undoubtedly a bit of a conundrum, which could not fail to produce difference of opinion. The best that anyone could hope for is that people be sincere to what Guruji tells them in their meditation, and that other people in turn then respect that we are all on an individual and personal spiritual journey as directed by SatGuruji.

[Genie Singh]

sargun worship like bhagat dhanna who tried to feed his thakur (idol) and god came to him in the form of a child to eat food since he wouldn't eat before his takhur/lord (idol) ate?

Edited February 4, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[jaikaara]

Now this is my personal opinion, i might be wrong Saadh Sangat ji please correct me .

I personally feel Sikhi is based on the transition of Sargun Nirgun to Nirankaar

If i were to take the Jaap Sahib baani it has sargun description like Aaajan bahu (one with long arms like Raaja Ramchander ji is described as aajan bahu which nearly touched their knees )

Nirgun would be - alaikh hain, abhaikh hain, anam hain, akam hain.

Nirankaar would be : Oankaar Aad kathani anaad .

Idol worship on the other side is worshipping the very form of the Being ..the worshippers of various Devi and Devte are limiting their vision of Parmatma to the form of their being .

I was born Hindu and as i have mentioned before am still to be a keshdhaari and take amrit. I always had this confusion of Shivji was Parmatma then whom was he meditating on . If Raaja Ramchander ji was Parmatma then how come he also saw death and experienced the same feelings as a human does .

[Guest]

From gurmat theological perspective- sargun upasana and nirgun upsana should not be looked at two separate different things or two different margs/paths, but rather stages in one spiritual development. In Gurmat, sarguna upasana its accepted as stage of spiritual seeker leading towards nirgun upasna spontaneously and naturally.

Sarguna worship is not idol worship since idol worship is rigid non receptive mindset which confines akaal purkh into idol or object. Sarguna worship is natural way (linked with begineer mind as begineer mind is very much sargun perceiving things sarguna), its used as techinque to have mind steady and its also form of devotion towards satguru who appears sargun to devotee based on devotee state of mind, sargun upasana where one is receptive not rigid of confining akaal purkh into idol or object, being receptive but at the same time maintaining non stop one pointed meditation with full love and devotion naturally progressing into next stage.

[harsharan000]

An idol, is something made of one of the elements, of which the whole creation is made of. We all know they are: earth, air, water, fire, ether...and all are inert by themselves, are "jarr", and as such, do not carry or contain any consciousenss.

On the other side, when, those elements, are made a temporary residence, by the divine Ray of Light(soul), that container becomes alive, we say it has life...may it be in any level of consciousness....such as plant kingdom, insects, birds, cuadruped mammals or even as human beings in this gross creation..... in the astral or causal planes, souls have different coverings from those, as in this our present condition and level in this world.

Knowledge, wisdom, bliss, can be more or less in each being,depending on it´s conscious level, but never ever in lifeless things or objects.

The Supreme being, is the highest level of consciuosness....that same One, when it manifests itself at our level, in the form of Sant Janas or Gurmukhs.

That Aad Guru, Shabad or Nam, then makes itself known to us, in our own understable terms, because otherwise it is Nirankar, Alakh, Agam, Beant ....there is no way to see or realize it, unless He Himself, wants us to know Him, and utters the pure Bani, such as Gurmat, by our Guru Sahibans .

But never ever that Supreme Being is going to stay for a temporal time or permanently in lifeless things, lifless objects....it is our moorakhta, our agyanta, if we search and look for Him, in these "jarr" things, it just shows that we have not understood Gurmat at all...the purpose of Gurmukhs is to take us out of all these useless outer activities, and attach it with the only truth, the only reality, which is Nam, which is Shabad, through the technique of Nam Simran.

That is why the Bani says: Har Simran meh, Prabh aap Nirankara. The formless Lord, is to be found through His simran, in His simran.

If ever any doubts, we should always refer to the Bani and see its applications, surley we will find answers.

But , not that this or that person said so and so, so many years ago....bla bla bla ...... Bani is the highest truth, if at all anything is doubtful, it should be contrasted within the parameters of the Bani ... if it goes in accordance, very good carry on ; if not, it should be discarded totally ...otherwise we would be incurring in "maanmat".

And individual or collective "maanmat" , leads nowhere, but to the dark pitch of the cycle of births and deaths ...

It is only by following Gurmat, one gets salvation.

Why?

Because it is vey simply and clearly stated: Jin Har japiya, se Har hoeeya.

Edited February 5, 2014 by harsharan000

[Singh123456777]

I know what your getting at sherro boy.

No a book(Granth) is not an idol.

[BhagatSingh]

There is no difference. The problem is that people do rituals without true feeling. When doing any ritual there has to be clarity of thought and clarity of intent (in other words, love). If that Malini, that is the central character of Sant Kabir's shalok, had any understanding, she would also see Parmatma in the branches, leaves and flowers of the tree. But she does not. When she cannot see Parmatma in all those places He resides then it follows that she is not really seeing Him in her beloved idol. So her idol is just a stone.Therefore, she only has love for a stone, and not a idol. Notice how the word pahan (stone) is used, and not Murti (idol).

[Lazy Sewadar]

How do you define an idol and also idol worship?

Apologies ji, i should have been a bit more careful about terminology..... where you were quoting from i was using the English term "idol worship" in the pejorative- i.e. insincere and superstitious worship of a form devoid of any real connection to God.

That was supposed to be taken in contrast to Sargun bhakti puja/sadhana, which is focusing on attributes or form (be it physical or mental) as a tool/doorway to receive Hari Darshan.

[Lazy Sewadar]

Next question which comes to my mind, can a book be an idol?

How about the pictures of "greatly loved or admired person/s"?

I personally would think so.

It's no great secret that one can observe such an attitude in the behaviour of certain people in the Gurdwara who come, prostrate before Maharaj, present some small offering, and then depart. Such activity undoubtedly is identical to that which could be observed everyday before an idol/murti in Varanasi, Vrindavan, or any rural Indian town.

Interestingly, one great soul recently asked me: "if you had a science exam to prepare for would you bring your science book home, place it on a palki with reverence and then bow to it, and thereby think that you are sure of passing the exam? Bhakti and pyar are not devoid of value, but external bhakti alone is very definately incomplete."

[Genie Singh]

Raaja Ramchander ji was Parmatma then how come he also saw death and experienced the same feelings as a human does .

How did Ram die (what sort of death did ramchander the mortal have)?

Edited February 6, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[Genie Singh]

I remember seeing this in a Sikh text book which was quoting gurbani but I can't seem to find the reference number for this but here it is:

The message and the teachings of Kabir can be easily gathered from his 'Dohas1, which criticise rituals and superstitions. Kabir said : "If by worshipping stones one can find God, I shall worship a mountain."

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir_panth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narada

http://www.kamakoti.org/kamakoti/details/skandapurana18.html?PHPSESSID=70aeed497c6dfa4d2c6b0203621275ff

http://hinduonline.co/Scriptures/Puranas/NaradaPurana.html

"O virtuous one! Those who develop gardens and parks also receive same virtues. Those who preserve them receive more virtues than the developers. One who plants a basil sapling salves his crores of ancestors. Similarly, those who bathe the Lord’s idol with milk on Dwadashi and Poornamaasi salve millions of their ancestors. Those who bathe Lord’s idol with Panchamrit on Ekadashi receive everlasting joy and salvation. Similarly, those who bathe Lord’s idol with coconut milk, sugarcane juice, and water containing flowers or filtered water get free from all their sins. Similarly, those who bathe Lord Vishnu’s idol during eclipses or on auspicious dates and conjugations receive the virtue of all the Yagyas. Those who bathe Lord Vishnu’s and Shiva’s idols with coconut milk, ghee, honey and sesame oil on auspicious dates assume respective appearances of these gods." - Narad Puran

We all know nothing is found by worshipping mountains, hence nothing can be found by worshipping idols either.

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
First Mehl:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥
हिंदू मूले भूले अखुटी जांही ॥
The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

ਨਾਰਦਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਂਹੀ ॥
नारदि कहिआ सि पूज करांही ॥
As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols.

ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥
अंधे गुंगे अंध अंधारु ॥
They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥
पाथरु ले पूजहि मुगध गवार ॥
The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
ओहि जा आपि डुबे तुम कहा तरणहारु ॥२॥
But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2| ^[

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 556

the king of kings, O Aurangzeb ! you are far from righteousness and justice.94..
ਮਨਮ ਕੁਸ਼ਤਹਅਮ ਕੋਹਿਯਾਂ ਪੁਰਫਿਤਨ ॥ ਕਿ ਆਂ ਬੁਤ ਪਰਸਤੰਦੁ ਮਨ ਬੁਤਸ਼ਿਕਨ ॥੯੫॥.
I vanquished the vicious hill chiefs, they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker.95..
(Zafarnama, Dasam Granth Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh)

Akaal Ustati

ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਪਾਹਨ ਪੂਜ ਧਰਯੋ ਸਿਰ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਲਿੰਗ ਗਰੇ ਲਟਕਾਇਓ ॥
Someone worshipped stone and placed it on his head. Someone hung the phallus (lingam) from his neck.
ਕਾਹੂ ਲਖਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਅਵਾਚੀ ਦਿਸਾ ਮਹਿ ਕਾਹੂ ਪਛਾਹ ਕੋ ਸੀਸੁ ਨਿਵਾਇਓ ॥
Someone visualized God in the South and someone bowed his head towards the West.
ਕੋਉ ਬੁਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਕੋਉ ਮ੍ਰਿਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਨ ਧਾਇਓ ॥
Some fool worships the idols and someone goes to worship the dead.
ਕੂਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਉਰਿਝਓ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਜਗ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ॥੧੦॥੩੦॥
The whole world is entangled in false rituals and has not known the secret of Lord-God 10.30.
(Akaal Ustat, Dasam Granth Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh)

Bachitar Natak

ਤਾਹਿ ਪਛਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਨ ਮਹਾ ਪਸੁ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਤਿਹੂੰ ਪੁਰ ਮਾਹੀ ॥.
O foolish beast! Thou doth not recognize Him, Whose Glory hath spread over all the three worlds..
ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੇ ਪਰਸੈ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਪਰਾਹੀ ॥.
Thou worshippest those as God, by whose touch thou shalt be driven far away from the next world..
ਪਾਪ ਕਰੋ ਪਰਮਾਰਥ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਪਾਪਨ ਤੇ ਅਤਿ ਪਾਪ ਲਜਾਹੀ ॥.
Thou art committing such sins in th name of parmarath (the subtle truth) that by committing them the Great sins may feel shy..
ਪਾਇ ਪਰੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕੇ ਜੜ ਪਾਹਨ ਮੈਂ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਨਾਹੀ ॥੯੯॥.
O fool! Fall at the feet of Lord-God, the Lord is not within the stone-idols.99..
(Bachitar Natak, Dasam Granth Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh)

ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਜਲ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਧਾਨਾ ॥
Several them considered God as stone and several others bathed considering the Lordship of Water.
ਕੇਤਕ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਡਰਪਾਨਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਧਰਮ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੧੧॥
Considering Dharmaraja as the Supreme representative of Dharma, several bore fear of him in their actions. 11.
ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥
All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme.
ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਸਰ ਜਾਤੀ ਭੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਪਰਤ ਸੋਭ ਭੀ ॥੧੨॥
They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12
(Bachitar Natak, Dasam Granth Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh)

ਪਖਾਣ ਪੂਜ ਹੋਂ ਨਹੀਂ ॥ ਨ ਭੇਖ ਭੀਜ ਹੋ ਕਹੀਂ ॥
I do not worship stones, nor I have any liking for a particular guise. ਅਨੰਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥੩੫॥
I sing infinite Names (of the Lord), and meet the Supreme Purusha.35.
(Bachitar Natak, Dasam Granth Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh)

Sabad

ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦॥
RAGA DEVGANDHARI OF THE THENTH KING
ਇਕ ਬਿਨ ਦੂਸਰ ਸੋ ਨ ਚਿਨਾਰ ॥
Do not recognize anyone except ONE;
ਭੰਜਨ ਗੜ੍ਹਨ ਸਮਰਥ ਸਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
He is always the Destroyer, the Creator and the Almighty; he the Creator is Omniscient.....Pause.
ਕਹਾ ਭਇਓ ਜੋ ਅਤਿ ਹਿਤ ਚਿਤ ਕਰ ਬਹੁਬਿਧਿ ਸਿਲਾ ਪੁਜਾਈ ॥
Of what use is the worship of the stones with devotion and sincerity in various ways?
ਪਾਨ ਥਕੇ ਪਾਹਿਨ ਕੱਹ ਪਰਸਤ ਕਛੁ ਕਰ ਸਿੱਧ ਨ ਆਈ ॥੧॥
The hand became tired of touching the stones, because no spiritual powr accrued.1.
ਅੱਛਤ ਧੂਪ ਦੀਪ ਅਰਪਤ ਹੈ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਖੈ ਹੈ ॥
Rice, incense and lamps are offered, but the stones do not eat anything,
ਤਾ ਮੈ ਕਹਾਂ ਸਿੱਧ ਹੈ ਰੇ ਜੜ ਤੋਹਿ ਕਛੂ ਬਰ ਦੈ ਹੈ ॥੨॥
O fool ! where is the spiritual power in them, so that they may bless you with some boon.2.
ਜੌ ਜਿਯ ਹੋਤ ਦੇਤ ਕਛੁ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਰ ਮਨ ਬਚ ਕਰਮ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥
Ponder in mind, speech and action; if they had any life they could have given you something,
ਕੇਵਲ ਏਕ ਸ਼ਰਣਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਬਿਨ ਯੌ ਨਹਿ ਕਤਹਿ ਉਧਾਰ ॥੩॥੧॥
None can get salvation in any way without taking refuge in one Lord.3.1.
(Raag Devgandhari Patshahi 10, Dasam Granth Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh)

33 Svaiyey

ਕਹੂੰ ਲੈ ਠੋਕ ਬਧੇ ਉਰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੌ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਕਹਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਸੀਤ ਕੈ ਬੀਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥.
Someone has tied the stone-idol around his neck and someone has accepted Shiva as the Lord; someone considers the Lord within the temple or the mosque;.
ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੨॥.
Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator.12..
(33 Swaeeyey, Dasam Granth Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh)

ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਪੂਜਤ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਮੈ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਪੂਜ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੀ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਮਿਟਾਹੀ ॥
Why do you worship stones ?, because the Lord-God is not within those stones; you may only worship Him, whose adoration destroys clusters of sins;
ਆਧਿ ਬਿਆਧਿ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਜੇਤਕ ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਲੇਤ ਸਭੈ ਛੁਟਿ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨੁ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨ ਸਦਾ ਇਨ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਕਰੇ ਫਲੁ ਨਾਹੀ ॥੨੦॥
With the remembrance on the Name of the Lord, the ties of all suffering are removed; ever mediate on that Lord because the hollow religious will not bear any fruit.20.
ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਭਯੋ ਫਲ ਹੀਨ ਜੁ ਪੂਜ ਸਿਲਾ ਜੁਗਿ ਕੋਟ ਗਵਾਈ ॥ ਸਿੱਧ ਕਹਾ ਸਿਲ ਕੇ ਪਰਸੇ ਬਲ ਬ੍ਰਿੱਧ ਘਟੀ ਨਵਨਿੱਧ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
The hollow religion became fruitless and O being ! you have lost crores of years by worshipping the stones; you will not get power with the worship of stones; the strength and glory will only decrease;
ਆਜੁ ਹੀ ਆਜੁ ਸਮੋ ਜੁ ਬਿਤਯੋ ਨਹਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਰਯੋ ਕਛੁ ਲਾਜ ਨ ਆਈ ॥ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਜਯੋ ਨ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਐਸੇ ਹੀ ਐਸ ਸੁ ਬੈਸ ਗਵਾਈ ॥੨੧॥
In this way, the time was lost uselessly and nothing was achieved and you were not ashamed; O foolish intellect ! you have not remembered the Lord and have wasted your life in vain.21.
(33 Svaeeyey, Dasam Granth Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh)

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਪੜੇ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਦਿਨ ਭੇਦ ਕਛੂ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਨਹਿ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਪੂਜਤ ਠੌਰ ਅਨੇਕ ਫਿਰਯੋ ਪਰ ਏਕ ਕਬੈ ਹਿਯ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਸਾਯੋ ॥
You have studied Vedas and Katebs for a very long time, but still you could not comprehend His Mystery; you had been wandering at many places worshipping Him, but you never adopted that One Lord;
ਪਾਹਨ ਕੋ ਅਸਥਾਲਯ ਕੋ ਸਿਰ ਨਯਾਇ ਫਿਰਯੋ ਕਛੁ ਹਾਥ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਮੂੜ ਅਗੂੜ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਤਜਿ ਆਪਨ ਹੂੜ ਕਹਾ ਉਰਝਾਯੋ ॥੨੬॥
You had been wandering with bowed head in the temples of stones, hut you realized nothing; O foolish mind ! you were only entangled in your bad intellect abandoning that Effulgent Lord.26.
(33 Svaeeyey, Dasam Granth Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh)

Charitropakhyan

ਤਾਕੌ ਕਰਿ ਪਾਹਨ ਅਨੁਮਾਨਤ ॥ ਮਹਾਂ ਮੂੜ੍ਹ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਜਾਨਤ ॥
The fool considers Him a stone, but the great fool does not know any secret;
ਮਹਾਂਦੇਵ ਕੌ ਕਹਤ ਸਦਾ ਸ਼ਿਵ ॥ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਕਾ ਚੀਨਤ ਨਹਿ ਭਿਵ ॥੩੯੨॥
He calls Shiva "The Eternal Lord, "but he does not know the secret of the Formless Lord.392.
(Charitropakhyan, Dasam Granth Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh)

ਕਬੀਰ ਪਾਹਨੁ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
कबीर पाहनु परमेसुरु कीआ पूजै सभु संसारु ॥
Kabeer, someone sets up a stone idol and all the world worships it as the Lord.
ਇਸ ਭਰਵਾਸੇ ਜੋ ਰਹੇ ਬੂਡੇ ਕਾਲੀ ਧਾਰ ॥੧੩੬॥
इस भरवासे जो रहे बूडे काली धार ॥१३६॥
Those who hold to this belief will be drowned in the river of darkness. ||136||

Bhagat Kabir ਪੰਨਾ 1371, ਸਤਰ 14, Devotee Kabeer, Guru Granth Sahib

Edited February 6, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[Singh123456777]

Hey sher do you only know that one bhagat kabir Ji tuk?You use it everywhere.

[Jonny101]

Hey sher do you only know that one bhagat kabir Ji tuk?You use it everywhere.

he likes to take Gurbani Tukhs out of context

[das]

I still do not understand after around a month that what "Sher" and other memebers (in his same group and his anti-group) want to prove? "There definition of God or their understanding of God is correct while others is not?".

Let me point out certain points: First of all I respect ALL religions and their respective granths.

* Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a book that you can call it book. Here's why: It is written by the Gurus and Bhagats themselves and NOT claimed to the written by someone after their physical life is over on this earth. Secondly, the words written in it in are special Sound codes that comes directly from the one True God. Read Guru Nanak Dev Ji's bani......."Jesse Aave Kasam ke Bani, Teesa Kar.....". But if someone doesn't pay attention to this but just come bow and go, then it is NOT going to help as one needs to follow the Sound to reach the place from where it was generated.

* Veda are created by the Kaal (so called God by many people; but it is a actually a power created by God). Vedas do describe the One God but that one God is the Kaal himself which has hidden himself. Kaal's only work is to bound people to lower creation. All the areas: Suun (exclusively where Kaal resides), Casual, Mental, Astral, and Physical are under Kaal's supervision. It is the reason that great secrets of the universe is hidden inside the Veda as it is based upon the area behind Casual plane. Using this knowledge many scientists have done many inventions. But keep in mind that the life's journey is not to unwind the secret of universe but unwind the secret of self.

That being said, it does NOT mean that persons reading Vedas are lower and person reading Guru Granth Sahib Ji are higher. But the book/granth/person who helps you to get near to God is the farishta.

And at last, Idol is everything, we all love our moms, dads, wifes, children, houses, money, business etc. and therefore we're doing Murti/Idol puja. Idol puja is bad when you think that particular Idol is God and you refuse to accept that God has no roop.

Now, if you still want to pursue the worthless discussion of who is greater or if any Granth is equal to Idol, then no one is going to stop you from doing suicide. Enjoy it!

[Singh123456777]

he likes to take Gurbani Tukhs out of context

Yup

Hey have you noticed on Sikh Sangat forum they banned me.Whats the reason?Did you think in any of my posts I said anything Anti Sikhi etc?

Could you do me a favor and raise this question on that forum for me?I would have done it myself but I can't speak on SS.

[Genie Singh]

I dont think there is one line in Gurbani which asks for the books to be treated like idols. Stone idol would sink so would the book idol. if God can be found by worshiping a book, i would prostrate everyday in front of the Bathinda Library.

Bani also says:

Page 1365, Line 16

ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥

भावै लांबे केस करु भावै घररि मुडाइ ॥२५॥

Bẖāvai lāʼnbe kes kar bẖāvai gẖarar mudā▫e. ||25||

You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||

Devotee Kabir

But I guess Khalsa rituals are worthier than the 'Hindu' (idol-worshiping species) ones. Keeping a bodi by a Hindu is laughable but it would be blasphemous/human rights violation/beadbi/scandalous if someone laughs on a Sikh's gooti. Right?

Gurbani says straight away:

ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥

बाणी गुरू गुरू है बाणी विचि बाणी अम्रितु सारे ॥

Baṇī gurū gurū hai baṇī vicẖ baṇī amriṯ sāre.

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

ਗੁਰੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹੈ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥੫॥

गुरु बाणी कहै सेवकु जनु मानै परतखि गुरू निसतारे ॥५॥

Gur baṇī kahai sevak jan mānai parṯakẖ gurū nisṯāre. ||5||

If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. ||5||

SGGS 982

bhan mathhuraa kashh bhaedh nehee gur arajun parathakhy har ||7||19||

So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||

SGGS 1409

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੁ ॥

गुरु परमेसरु एको जाणु ॥

Gur parmesar eko jāṇ.

Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One.

SGGS 864

If shabad is Guru and the spirit of what is embodied into the manuscript of Guru Granth Sahib and that Guru is to be recognised as God, then if you are not going to bow before God who are you going to bow before? Phallus shaped black stones, that you waste ghee, yoghurt and milk on which could go to other practical means such as feeding the poor?

Shiva deva himself in Hindu manuscripts has said in the Guru Gita:

शिवे रुष्टे गुरुस्त्राता गुरौ रुष्टे न कश्चन |

लब्ध्वा कुलगुरुं सम्यग्गुरुमेव समाश्रयेत् ||

Śivē ruṣṭē gurustrātā gurau ruṣṭē na kaścana |

Labdhvā kulaguruṁ samyaggurumēva samāśrayēt ||

If Shiva is angry, the Guru saves you; but if the Guru is angry, even Shiva cannot save you. Therefore, with every effort, take refuge in the Guru. (44)

http://hariomgroup.org/hariombooks/satsang/English/SriGuruGita.htm

Which tells you the Guru is more powerful then Shiva is, Shiva is weaker than the guru, he is limited to the Guru which is nirankar

Edited February 7, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[Genie Singh]

I dont think there is one line in Gurbani which asks for the books to be treated like idols. Stone idol would sink so would the book idol. if God can be found by worshiping a book, i would prostrate everyday in front of the Bathinda Library.

Bani also says:

Page 1365, Line 16

ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥

भावै लांबे केस करु भावै घररि मुडाइ ॥२५॥

Bẖāvai lāʼnbe kes kar bẖāvai gẖarar mudā▫e. ||25||

You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||

Devotee Kabir

But I guess Khalsa rituals are worthier than the 'Hindu' (idol-worshiping species) ones. Keeping a bodi by a Hindu is laughable but it would be blasphemous/human rights violation/beadbi/scandalous if someone laughs on a Sikh's gooti. Right?

Sure you can have a bald head, you can have piercings, have tattoos and all but is it ideal to? Is it gurmat? Just because you can do something it doesn't mean it's context is in line with the discipline of gurmat it's contextualisation can mean you as a human being can do so you have that freedom as a human to mutilate your body. You can keep a bodi if you want- I never said it was funny but it sure does seem unusual, perhaps just like how the dastar and kesh are unusual for other people nor am I against the human right for someone to keep the bodi it's their right and if I pull it off and cut it off I've done the besti/bedbi of the brahmin faith just like when the RSS took a Sikhs turban off during Rajoana protest and set it on fire and the punjab police sat by doing nothing. Yet if someone was to do set fire to a bodhi the police would arrest them on Indian blasphemy charges. It seems like someone took the origins of the Gooti that the devas kept and started trimming around it till they got to the main part, then some cut that off other kept it, talk about your troublesome split ends.

Edited February 6, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[harsharan000]

It would be advisable, if due respect is given to each and every respectable member who participate and give their opinions through their posts in a civilized manner.

We should never try to make mockery or laugh at someone, so that his/her feelings are not hurt. You see, each and everyone, has not got the same level of consciousness, outwardly, we may look same, with the same two eyes, hands, feet, nose, etc, but spiritually we are not same.

What some see something clearly, others may need time to reach there and see it by themselves... so better not to laugh or provoke even unintentionally anybody.

In the end, everybody is playing a role asigned to him by Nature according to complicated karmic interactions beyond our comprehension .... and if the creation has to go on, there are going to be people who will carry on with rituals, rites, rules, regulations, idol worship...and an endless list of outer activities... so let us respect each and everybody how he is, there is beauty in respect...

Does not the Bani many a times mention the word "wadbhagee"? What does that mean? Only those few handful, understand and practice the Bani, on whom, He has glanced His dhrishtee, His Daya Meher has been showered...

Bani is crystal clear cut, but many prefer to take care of the Jewel Box and remain paupper, than paying attention to the jewels contained in that jewel box, by making use of them, and becoming rich(spiritually).

Why sholud someone get annoyed, or disheartened... we are all here, to walk shoulder with shoulder, nobody is perfect, neither superior...

Christ said, I am giving you only two rules to follow:

1) Love the Lord above evrything

and

2) Love thy neighbour as thyself.

Though it is desirable, that all sholud know and work on the teachings gifted to us by our Guru Sahibans...that would be the ideal...

But we should also keep in mind, that each and everyone has his destiny chalked for him... we can not, and should not, force anything on anybody, though the intentions maybe good, but the effects are then the contrary....

So, if we have anything to share, let us do it in a gentle manner, giving our best, and then leave it .... if anything has to come, it will come out naturally and the impressions will then be healthier...

Please forgive me, if anybody in any way, has ever been hurt by my way of expressing and seeing things .... there is nothing personal, as for me, all of us are the children of the same Father, Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

Edited February 6, 2014 by harsharan000

[Jonny101]

Yup

Hey have you noticed on Sikh Sangat forum they banned me.Whats the reason?Did you think in any of my posts I said anything Anti Sikhi etc?

Could you do me a favor and raise this question on that forum for me?I would have done it myself but I can't speak on SS.

They banned you? why? you're one of the most Panthic type of members of that forum. If anything we need more people like you there.

[Singh123456777]

They banned you? why? you're one of the most Panthic type of members of that forum. If anything we need more people like you there.

I don't know why they banned me but they did.I tried posting in the gupt section to ask why I'm banned but they are not letting my gupt posts go through.So I was wondering if you or somebody would post this question on my behalf.It they take it down just put the same post back up and demand an answer.I don't like when unjust things happen and this is very unjust.I remember I was debating with the member hsingh68 about Amrit,kesh,rehat etc and he was saying bad things about amrit and I got angry at him cause he was putting it all down and then the mods or admins put me on qc for no reason.

An admin or mod don't like me on sikh Sangat I think.

[Singh123456777]

They banned you? why? you're one of the most Panthic type of members of that forum. If anything we need more people like you there.

Have you noticed that fellow named Rana jodh Singh?He seems like a few guys we know here with their rss plot.

[BhagatSingh]

Jathedar

I appreciate you for bringing up all those shabads. This gives us plenty of material to work with when contemplating this issue. Those that really do want to know more will be the ones who will contemplate such things.

"O virtuous one! Those who develop gardens and parks also receive same virtues. Those who preserve them receive more virtues than the developers. One who plants a basil sapling salves his crores of ancestors. Similarly, those who bathe the Lord’s idol with milk on Dwadashi and Poornamaasi salve millions of their ancestors. Those who bathe Lord’s idol with Panchamrit on Ekadashi receive everlasting joy and salvation. Similarly, those who bathe Lord’s idol with coconut milk, sugarcane juice, and water containing flowers or filtered water get free from all their sins. Similarly, those who bathe Lord Vishnu’s idol during eclipses or on auspicious dates and conjugations receive the virtue of all the Yagyas. Those who bathe Lord Vishnu’s and Shiva’s idols with coconut milk, ghee, honey and sesame oil on auspicious dates assume respective appearances of these gods." - Narad Puran

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
First Mehl:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥
हिंदू मूले भूले अखुटी जांही ॥
The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

ਨਾਰਦਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਂਹੀ ॥
नारदि कहिआ सि पूज करांही ॥
As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols.

ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥
अंधे गुंगे अंध अंधारु ॥
They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥
पाथरु ले पूजहि मुगध गवार ॥
The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
ओहि जा आपि डुबे तुम कहा तरणहारु ॥२॥
But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2| ^[

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 556

While it's great that you quoted the Narad puran, I feel like it might create the wrong impression in readers who are not familiar with Narad and his work. Narad was a great individual who taught everyone how to do Bhagti. He was one of the very first bhagats, a very devoted and enlightened individual, he was the first one to do Bhagti. It was him who taught individuals like Dhruv and Prehlaad how to do Bhagti; Narad was their Guru!

Sant Kabir says

ਰਾਮ ਜਪਉ ਜੀਅ ਐਸੇ ਐਸੇ ॥ ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦ ਜਪਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ॥੧॥
Chant Ram the way Dhruv and Prehlaad chanted it.

Guru Amardas ji says

ਬਾਬਾਣੀਆ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਪੁਤ ਸਪੁਤ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥

Good sons read the works of their babas, the great men. (Who are these Babas, the great men?)

ਜਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁ ਮੰਨਿ ਲੈਨਿ ਸੇਈ ਕਰਮ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥

They do what is pleasing to the satguru.

ਜਾਇ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਤ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬਿਆਸ ਸੁਕ ਨਾਰਦ ਬਰਨ ਸੁਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟ ਕਰੇਨ।

Go and consult the Smritis, Shastars, Vyas's works, Sukdev's and those of Narad, who all preached to the world (ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟ).

(Answer: These great men are men like Vyas, Sukdev, Narad and those who wrote Smritis and Shatars. Why are they great?)

ਸਚੈ ਲਾਏ ਸਚਿ ਲਗੇ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਮਾਲੇਨਿ ॥

Their preaching attaches one to the truth because they themselves are attached to the truth and those who are affected by them are forever merged with the truth.

(Answer: Because they attach people to the truth.)

ਨਾਨਕ ਆਏ ਸੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਭਏ ਜਿ ਸਗਲੇ ਕੁਲ ਤਾਰੇਨਿ ॥੧॥

Guru Amardas ji says those are approved are those who (through bhagti) carry not only themselves but their lineage!

So we know that Narad is teaching a good path. Then how shall we make sense of this shabad:

Guru Nanak Dev ji says:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥

Hindus have forgotten (ਭੂਲੇ) the essential message (ਮੂਲੇ) and have entered the wrong path. (What have they forgotten?)

ਨਾਰਦਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਂਹੀ ॥

Narad told them to do pooja of Parmatma. (His puran is all about how to worship Parmatma.)

(Answer: The Hindus have forgotten the essential message of Narad, that is to worship Parmatma, and they are too engrossed in the act of worshiping and do not worship Parmatma as Narad suggested through the rituals outlined in the Puran.)

ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥

They are blind, mute, engrossed in darkness, in ignorance.

ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥

They worship the stone (without worshipping Parmatma), they are fools.

(They are not following Narad at all. Only when they immerse their minds in the thoughts about Parmatma can they follow the teachings of of Narad correctly.)

ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥

The stone will sink, how will it keep you afloat. (What keeps you afloat? Worshipping Parmatma)

Let's contemplate on this today. I will share more when time allows.

Edited February 7, 2014 by BhagatSingh

[Genie Singh]

I don't know why they banned me but they did.I tried posting in the gupt section to ask why I'm banned but they are not letting my gupt posts go through.So I was wondering if you or somebody would post this question on my behalf.It they take it down just put the same post back up and demand an answer.I don't like when unjust things happen and this is very unjust.I remember I was debating with the member hsingh68 about Amrit,kesh,rehat etc and he was saying bad things about amrit and I got angry at him cause he was putting it all down and then the mods or admins put me on qc for no reason.

An admin or mod don't like me on sikh Sangat I think.

Don't worry they banned me aswell, about 3 times now. I can't be bothered to return to them they don't even have any interesting topics anymore. They won't tolerate any meat debates, any muslim comments that they themselves don't make- it's dominated by akj's and taksali. You can get away with any anti Hindu remark on it any day of the week. They don't tolerate anyone who questions AKJ or taksal. They won't tolerate anyone who doesn't agree with bhindranwale or questions the creation of khalistan. It seems the only posts they are interested is the ones where they can give dawah and convert coconut sikhs from. The banned Sher and Ekomkar pretty much everyone from here apart from N3O has been banned. I heard one of the admin's name on SS is Vicky Singh Randhawa AKJ from California. You could like everyone else just make another account go back on the forum and be more careful or like sher make 2 accounts be more controversial on one and use the other as a backup.

Edited February 7, 2014 by JatherdarSahib