Guru Nanak Is God - How?

[paapiman]

If Guru Nanak Dev Ji IS incarnation of God can u please explain:

1. Why Mool Mantra says God does not take birth or death (formless) and that all forms occur within God?

2. Why did Guru Nanak Dev Ji disappear for three days at the river where he was said to be in 'presence of' that divine and had the revelation revealed to him about reality... Of Which he wrote down as Mool Mantra?

3. Why he would claim that he is but a servant of God?

I thought Sikhi does not believe God takes direct incarnation / avatars.... That we believe in the One timeless formless Akal Purakh??

I think I posted the concept of Nirgun Sargun in another thread... But suffice to say that if ALL forms occur within the One then no one form could ever be the sum of that One.

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur, 15 April 2015 - 04:45 AM.

The above, are three really good questions asked by a member. The following are the answers, to the first and the third question.

1. Regarding the birth of Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj, Maharaaj did not stay in the womb, as we normal humans do. God asked maya to create a physical body for Satguru jee, which was done inside Mata Tripta jee. Then, when Satguru jee's body came out; at that point, God's almighty power infused into it. This event cannot be clasiified as a birth, but rather as a 'Prakash'.

Therefore, in conclusion, Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj is the incarnation of the Almighty God and he is Ajunee (free from birth and death).

2. The reason, Satguru jee refers to himself as a servant of God, is because Gurbani is meant for us to recite. If Satguru jee had recited lines such as "I am Almighty" or "I am perfect" or "I am the best", we would have recited them and it would have resulted in an augmentation of our ego, not it's destruction. Also, Satguru jee refers to himself as a keera (insect), kiram (worm), neech (low), dog, etc. This has been done to teach us humility. Secondly, these terms show us the utmost humility shown by Satguru jee, which is not seen in any other religion as Sikhism is the only religion, which was started directly by God himself..

Therefore, in conclusion, Satguru jee refers to himself as a servant of God, insect, worm, etc to teach us humility, so that we can overpower the powerful demon of ego.

Edited April 20, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

Your answer to 1. seems just your thoughts on the subject. Please provide actual references where you got that theory...

Just as a side note, from a neurologist friend of mine, consciousness does not form in any infant until the 6th week. Prior to that time everything is autonomic anyway and there is no capacity for memory. So in that way we are no different as we too are essentially 'not present' in the baby body until six weeks after the birth has happened. So while the body took birth, we weren't there in any meaningful capacity until six weeks later. (This has actually created a stir among pro life activists because of the implications). But anyway it means that no human is really born going by your definition. We all enter later...

Gurbani repeatedly refers to God as 'Formless' so aside from the Mool Manar stating God is beyond birth and death, we are told unequivocally, that God has no form. If God is formless (in addition to being beyond birth and death), then how can God have (only one) form? It's easy to understand how ALL forms are God because we are told EVERYTHING happens WITHIN this formless God. But not if ALL of God were suddenly WITHIN God in only ONE form - then how could all other forms still exist? What would they then be existing within? Since everything happens only within God, there would be nothing left 'outside' of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, in order to sustain everything else.

Your answer to number 3. doesn't address question 2. If Guru Nanak were already ALL of God incarnated, then why would he need to disappear for 3 days at the river and be brought into Divine presence and revealed the truth about reality and God which he later wrote as Mool Mantar? If he was ALL of God would he not have known the nature of God already?

Again please provide references where your explanations can be found in Gurbani. You can easily find the references for what I have wrote above...

If I become fully conscious within my dreams at night... even remembering who I am as the dreamer, it's still not ALL of me within the dream. I can be conscious that I am the dreamer, but I am still really existing outside of the dream. (This is called lucid dreaming btw and its possible to experience!) The characters within the dream (aside from the character I am fully conscious within) are still going about their lives unaware that I am really fully conscious of being the dreamer. But... it's a moot point anyway! Because even though the rest of the characters are seemingly unaware of who is the dreamer, and are seemingly acting independently, they are still all me! It's MY mind who is creating all of them! NONE of them were really born and none of them really die. Sure, the characters are gone when I (the dreamer) awaken in the morning. But they were never a separate entity from me anyway. So my take on birth and death are that they are both illusion. They are moot... certainly from within the dream they are real, but there is really only ONE dreamer and ONE dream all along.

This is why I quote Ang 736 so much. It puts it into terms so easily understood. But gurbani mentions this world is a dream many times over. It also uses other metaphors like "He is the chessman and he is also the board" (He is also the player) He is the Director of the play AND ALL of the characters, and the play itself! We are told straight out that there "IS NO OTHER" at all. So Ego is just attachment to this false dream character we are playing right now...

Edited April 21, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[paapiman]

Your answer to 1. seems just your thoughts on the subject. Please provide actual references where you got that theory...

This is the explanation (more or less), I heard from a scholar.

Gurbani repeatedly refers to God as 'Formless' so aside from the Mool Manar stating God is beyond birth and death, we are told unequivocally, that God has no form. If God is formless (in addition to being beyond birth and death), then how can God have (only one) form? It's easy to understand how ALL forms are God because we are told EVERYTHING happens WITHIN this formless God. But not if ALL of God were suddenly WITHIN God in only ONE form - then how could all other forms still exist? What would they then be existing within? Since everything happens only within God, there would be nothing left 'outside' of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, in order to sustain everything else.

There is a sakhi regarding tenth master, when he was at Nanded. Master became formless before going to Sachkhand. Sikhs were able to see the feet of Satguru jee, but were not able to touch them. This sakhi is more than enough to prove that Satguru jee could become formless, at will.

Your answer to number 3. doesn't address question 2. If Guru Nanak were already ALL of God incarnated, then why would he need to disappear for 3 days at the river and be brought into Divine presence and revealed the truth about reality and God which he later wrote as Mool Mantar? If he was ALL of God would he not have known the nature of God already?

I never said that I have answered number 2. I don't know the answer to that question, but I will try to find out the answer.

The above, are three really good questions asked by a member. The following are the answers, to the first and the third question.

Again please provide references where your explanations can be found in Gurbani. You can easily find the references for what I have wrote above...

More than enough Gurbani tuks have been provided in the link below, to prove that Satguru jee is God himself. Please check the link below.

The following gurbani tuk by tenth master himself, should be more than enough for proof.

waheguru sri guru Nanak dhar ke moorat hai jag ayo

Sri Guru Nanak or Waheguru has formed an image and has come to this world

If you are still not satisfied, then you will have to talk to a great scholar such as Gyani Inderjit Singh jee Raqbe wale, Gyani Mohan Singh jee Bhindrawale, etc.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited April 21, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

There are also many gurbani Turks which say we are all God as well. There is only ONE in existence... God.

[Harjots8963]

Bani Says Gur Parmeshar Ekho Jaan...!

Guru Nanak Dev Ji is God!!

This notion that Guru Nanak Dev ji WAS and not IS,

Is false...

[paapiman]

There is only ONE in existence... God.

That is the avastha of a Brahamgyani. I don't think, there are many Brahamgyanis on this forum.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited April 21, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

That is the avastha of a Brahamgyani. I don't think, there are many Brahamgyanis on this forum.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

I am not talking about any state of any of us... I am talking about what gurbani says is reality.... that there is only ONE in existence. ALL of us are merely characters being played by that same ONE actor. Brahamgyanis have just realized this fact and experienced it.

I have had a small glimpse... through out of body state, I have experienced the spiritual nature of reality and a feeling of connectedness of everything. These experiences happened to me without my trying at all (so it wasn't something I did) at age 8 it just happened for the first time. I had no idea what it was... but I view it as a gift, a glimpse beyond the veil of this reality.

[BhagatSingh]

I'll keep it brief.

Gurbani says Gurus are avtaars of God.

Start with this post -

-----
Done reading?

These are good questions -

1. Why Mool Mantra says God does not take birth or death (formless) and that all forms occur within God?

Ajuni means not limited to birth and death. He is not bound to Joon, any life form. He is beyond birth and death meaning He transcends life forms!

Bhagat Namdev ji says

ਧਨਿ ਧਨਿ ਤੂ ਮਾਤਾ ਦੇਵਕੀ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਰਮਈਆ ਕਵਲਾਪਤੀ ॥੨॥
Blessed are you (Krishan ji's) Mother Devaki, in your home the all-pervading Lord of Maya was born.

He still takes avtaars. He is not the physical shell of the Avtaar, He is the Avtaar Himself.

The Bhatts say
ਸਦ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਅਮੋਲੁ ਆਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
Guru Arjun you are All Life-forms, yet you trancend life forms (Ajuni), you are invaluable and self-existent.

(The Ajuni takes birth? Most sikhs gona have a heartattack at this point lol)

2. Why did Guru Nanak Dev Ji disappear for three days at the river where he was said to be in 'presence of' that divine and had the revelation revealed to him about reality... Of Which he wrote down as Mool Mantra?

Well the brain has to learn at some point for what purpose it was created. Even Ram Chandar ji learned he was God through a guru. The guru had to remind Him!

(That's why gurbani places so much stress on listening to the guru!)

3. Why he would claim that he is but a servant of God?

He said it

1. because he wants you to say it! Sikhs sing his shabads and repeat his words. Guru sahib wants to embed his teachings inside you.

2. because at that time, perhaps due to Muslim presence, it would have been problematic to say "I am God".

Saying "I am god" was largely misunderstood by most. People take it as a sign of hankar, rather than pure humility. So Guru Sahibs and other saints avoided that route.

Back then Krishan ji was able to tell Arjun that because Arjun was receptive to that idea. Arjun didn't misunderstand it and he was enlightened thereafter, when Krishan ji shows him what He looks like.

Edited April 21, 2015 by BhagatSingh

[Lucky]

Guru Nanak ji was born a guru.

Remember that gu-ru is going from darkness to light and having that guide,ustad, teacher to guide you.

So, the sargun manifestation of God that is already the complete and purest form of that light of God,... in sargun roop,... for our low intellects...is Guru Nanak ji.

Not long ago, a gurmukh was saying that the Guru Nanak ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji were a little different from the other 8 gurus in that they were already born as pure manifestations of Waheguru jyot. Whereas the other gurus learned, devoted and spent time in meditation whilst having a guru(previous guru) guide them and were thus passed on the gurgaddi to continue. ...Guru Nanak ji was Guru Angad ji's guru and passed on guruship and so on....(I know this leads to more debates because of technicalities, but the gurmukh who made this statement does have a point worth contemplating)

Someone made the point that we all have God in us and we are all part of God,, so how can we say only Guru Nanak ji was a form of God ?

Well, we are born as per karma, destiny, our lekhe. We are all manukh and have to make the transformation from Manukh to Gurmukh (as i mentioned in the other thread)

Gurbani says

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥
Bẖa▫ī parāpaṯ mānukẖ ḏehurī▫ā.
This human body has been given to you.

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥
Gobinḏ milaṇ kī ih ṯerī barī▫ā.
This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.

Whereas Guru Nanak ji was already fully immersed in Gobind. Him and God were 'Ik-mikh' -(one and the same)

We too can become 'Ik-mikh' or brahmgyaan, but we have to really work at and transform from dark to light as per gu-ru

[BhagatSingh]

Lucky
Well thanks for opening that can of worms. Lol

gurmukh who made this statement does have a point worth contemplating

No he just lacks knowledge of what actually happened in our history.

Once upon a time, Bibi Bhani ji after doing a grat deal of seva of Guru Amar Das ji, asked for a vow that every Guru after him should belong to the family. That gurgaddi be only passed down within the family. Previously Gurgaddi was based on merit not relation. Guru Nanak Dev ji and Guru Angad Dev ji were not related. Guru Angad Dev ji and Guru Amar Das ji were not related. However the 7 Gurus that came after that were all related, and they passed down the Gurgaddi down to their family members. This is also why Guru Gobind Singh ji didn't pass down the Gurgaddi to another man because his whole family was destroyed. Guru Gobind Singh ji did however pass leadership of sikhs to Banda Singh ji Bahadur (who was already an enlightened, influencial guru in the dakhani region, make of that what you will.)

Whereas the other gurus learned, devoted and spent time in meditation whilst having a guru(previous guru) guide them and were thus passed on the gurgaddi to continue.

He doesn't know the basics. Many of our Gurus did not do this.

Guru Arjun Dev ji was 18 when Guru Ram Das ji passed away.
Guru Hari Gobind ji was 11 when Guru Arjun Dev ji was tortured to death.

Guru Hari Rai ji was 14 when Guru Hari Gobind ji passed away.
Guru Hari Krishan ji was 5 years old when Guru Hari Rai ji passed away.
Compare that to -
Guru Gobind Singh ji was 9 when Guru Tegh Bahadur ji was beheaded.

What time spent?
They were so young when their fathers were killed or passed away. What time did they spend with them?

Reality is - They were the only ones who were in the family, and they were trying to keep the lineage going and indeed they were successful when Guru Tegh Bahadur ji came. Guru Tegh Bahadur ji had done a lot of bhagti. He did not really want to be a Guru, he was kinda hiding and meditating in some old house, locked away, completely detached. When he was found, sikhs absolutely rejoiced!! They were so excited to have found someone within the family to lead them, to continue the Guru lineage. AND to continue to write Shabads! After Guru Arjun Dev ji the Gurus had stopped writing poetry for whatever reasons. Guru Tegh Bahadur, being the only one left of his family, realized his responsibility and he recharged the sikhs with mindblowing shabads. He was so influencial, no wonder kashmiri pandits came to him.

And is he trying to say Guru Nanak Dev ji didn't meditate? Oh I assure you he did. He had been meditating prior to leaving on his mission. He had been gaining influence through his shabads prior to spreading that influence. Why is he doing "tera, tera" in the modi khana? Your friend doesn't think that is meditating?

Edited April 21, 2015 by BhagatSingh

[CdnSikhGirl]

Guru Nanak ji was born a guru.

Someone made the point that we all have God in us and we are all part of God,, so how can we say only Guru Nanak ji was a form of God ?

Well, we are born as per karma, destiny, our lekhe. We are all manukh and have to make the transformation from Manukh to Gurmukh (as i mentioned in the other thread)

Gurbani says

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥
Bẖa▫ī parāpaṯ mānukẖ ḏehurī▫ā.
This human body has been given to you.

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥
Gobinḏ milaṇ kī ih ṯerī barī▫ā.
This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.

Whereas Guru Nanak ji was already fully immersed in Gobind. Him and God were 'Ik-mikh' -(one and the same)

We too can become 'Ik-mikh' or brahmgyaan, but we have to really work at and transform from dark to light as per gu-ru

Exactly! That same light is within us... Just like them we too are not the physical shell... the physical shell was 'given to us' in order to interact with the physical world so we can realize God. So our true nature is also not human, but spiritual. It's like we are all living immersed within this illusion and we forgot that it's actually an illusion. We forgot who we really are.

But in reality, there is only ONE anyway and all else (separate identities) are illusion.

[Singh123456777]

Satkiran understand that guru Nanak dev Ji is pure god from the beginning right when he was born... In his childhood when he went to the schools to learn he spent a few days in the school and the teacher told guru Ji's father that I cannot teach him cause he already knows everything... In the schools when the teacher was telling the student to write the alphabet guru Ji instead wrote ੴ and told the teacher to follow this... If he was not god and not enlightened why would or how would he know about ੴ? He was only six years of age or something like that and when he got lost for three days he was much older...

Regarding when he left for three days the sargun saroop of akaal purkh did the Darshan of nirgun saroop of akaal purkh... Guru nanak is the sargun saroop of akaal purkh... For example the second guru who is sargun saroop one time just sat on his throne for 9 days without any food water etc... They had their eyes closed and had Darshan of nirgun saroop of akaal purkh and sachkhand etc... Same thing happened with guru tegh bahadur Ji who is sargun saroop did Darshan of nirgun saroop of akaal purkh... When guru hargobind sahib Ji who is sargun saroop made akal takht guru Ji's the nirgun saroop of akaal purkh said I will sit in the throne later as the form of the shastar.. Right now where guru Ji used to sit is where the shastar nirgun saroop are placed... Guru gobind Singh Ji maharaj spent 11 months without giving Darshan to anybody cause they the sargun saroop of akaal purkh had Darshan of nirgun saroop of akaal purkh and wanted the nirgun saroop of akaal purkh to give the go ahead to create Khalsa.... It's really confusing as hell lol

In Sri sarbloh Granth guru gobind Singh Ji maharaj wrote that guru Nanak dev Ji is akaal purkh.. How can I doubt my guru?

Regarding you saying that we all are god... Well that is partially correct..In my opinion we are riddled with lust, anger, greed, attachment and ego and until these go fully away we can never become one with god... The gurus were flawless from the start cause they were god.. We on the other hand have many flaws and with immense Bhagti and guru di Kirpa can we rid ourselves of these flaws...

Hopefully I sorta explained something lol...

[Singh123456777]

We are not sargun saroop of akaal purkh or nirgun saroop of akaal purkh... Our goal is to merge ourselves to become one with nirgun saroop of akaal purkh..

[Guest]

This should clarify on what we are really are- According to sri guru gobind singh ji

Also bachan by sri guru gobind singh ji in sri dasam granth sahib- gyan parbodh:

ਚਰਿਓ ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਸੰਗ ॥ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਭੰਗ ॥

उचरिओ आतमा परातमा संग ॥ उतभुज सरूप अबिगत अभंग ॥

The soul said to the Higher Soul; the Germinating Entity, Unmanifested and Invincible;

ਇਹ ਕਉਨ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜ ਅਤਿਭੂਤਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ ॥੨॥੧੨੭॥

इह कउन आहि आतमा सरूप ॥ जिह अमित तेज अतिभूति बिभूति ॥२॥१२७॥

What is this Soul Entity? Which hath indelible glory and which is of queer substance."2.127.

ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਬਾਚ ॥

परातमा बाच ॥

The Higher Soul said:

ਯਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜਿ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਕਾਮ ॥

यहि ब्रहम आहि आतमा राम ॥ जिह अमित तेजि अबिगत अकाम ॥

This Soul is itself Brahman;" Who is of Everlasting Glory and is Unmanisfested and Desireless.

ਜਿਹ ਭੇਦ ਭਰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਮ ਕਾਲ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਰਬਾ ਦਿਆਲ ॥੩॥੧੨੮॥

जिह भेद भरम नहीं करम काल ॥ जिह सत्र मित्र सरबा दिआल ॥३॥१२८॥

Who is indiscriminate, actionless and deathless; Who hath no enemy and friend and is Merciful towards all.3.1228.

[CdnSikhGirl]

We are not sargun saroop of akaal purkh or nirgun saroop of akaal purkh... Our goal is to merge ourselves to become one with nirgun saroop of akaal purkh..

This would suggest Creatorion is separate from Creator... same as Christianity, Islam etc teaches. However I have not found one single tuk in Gurbani which suggests Creation and Creator are separate.

And yes our job is to merge back with Creator... however... we are not separate so merging is not a good word to use really. We only have the illusion of being separate. Hence, it's not actual merging we need to do... what we need to do is lift the veil of the illusion so we realize we were never separate to begin with. It's the realiztion of that connection that we have lost... not the connection itself.

Yes, Bhagat Singh JI, we are plagued and riddled with Ego, born of the five evils... these things exist because we are immersed in this illusion and forgot who we are. This identity we have of 'I' is not real. We are only experiencing the 'I' because we are cut off from experiencing the 'ALL' as ONE. The 'I' is merely a character... all of the precepts of this reality that this 'I' has built in this lifetime, which shaped who the 'I' is... this is all false. Behind these precepts of reality which were defined through life experience as the 'I', there exists the actual 'Experiencer' - the ONE doing the observing, the 'Doer'. This is the true identity. It exists even after all of the precepts, personality, that the 'I' had built in it's lifetime, have been completely removed. It has always existed, and will always exist. Remove all of the notions that define you as who you are in this lifetime... there still exists a consciousness who is the one who is experiencing. That is the real you. And it's the same Doer or Experiencer in ALL of us, who is subjectively experiencing itself through many many of these characters who call themselves 'I'. The problem is that we have gotten so caught up in playing the acracter, we have forgotten we were only acting in our own play.

[paapiman]

This would suggest Creatorion is separate from Creator... same as Christianity, Islam etc teaches. However I have not found one single tuk in Gurbani which suggests Creation and Creator are separate.

And yes our job is to merge back with Creator... however... we are not separate so merging is not a good word to use really. We only have the illusion of being separate. Hence, it's not actual merging we need to do... what we need to do is lift the veil of the illusion so we realize we were never separate to begin with. It's the realiztion of that connection that we have lost... not the connection itself.

Yes, Bhagat Singh JI, we are plagued and riddled with Ego, born of the five evils... these things exist because we are immersed in this illusion and forgot who we are. This identity we have of 'I' is not real. We are only experiencing the 'I' because we are cut off from experiencing the 'ALL' as ONE. The 'I' is merely a character... all of the precepts of this reality that this 'I' has built in this lifetime, which shaped who the 'I' is... this is all false. Behind these precepts of reality which were defined through life experience as the 'I', there exists the actual 'Experiencer' - the ONE doing the observing, the 'Doer'. This is the true identity. It exists even after all of the precepts, personality, that the 'I' had built in it's lifetime, have been completely removed. It has always existed, and will always exist. Remove all of the notions that define you as who you are in this lifetime... there still exists a consciousness who is the one who is experiencing. That is the real you. And it's the same Doer or Experiencer in ALL of us, who is subjectively experiencing itself through many many of these characters who call themselves 'I'. The problem is that we have gotten so caught up in playing the acracter, we have forgotten we were only acting in our own play.

In your opinion, who is Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj? Can you please explain?

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[Koi]

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

Gur Naanak Naanak Har Soe ||4||7||9||

गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥

Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

36795 ਗੋਂਡ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੬੪ ਪੰ. ੧੯

Raag Gond Guru Arjan Dev

[Guest]

Please see this thread on real meaning of nanak from japji sahib teeka by sant gyani gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale:

[CdnSikhGirl]

ChzS1ngh said it perfectly in a different post...

[Singh123456777]

"Satguru Nanak Aap Parmeswar - Avtaar Lie Shubh Bans Pardhana".

Sri sarbloh Granth

What do you think guru gobind Singh Ji is talking about with this tuk?

PS: The punjabi version is in the tarna dal gutka... I tried finding it online but couldn't...

[BhagatSingh]

Yes, Bhagat Singh JI, we are plagued and riddled with Ego, born of the five evils... these things exist because we are immersed in this illusion and forgot who we are. This identity we have of 'I' is not real. We are only experiencing the 'I' because we are cut off from experiencing the 'ALL' as ONE. The 'I' is merely a character... all of the precepts of this reality that this 'I' has built in this lifetime, which shaped who the 'I' is... this is all false. Behind these precepts of reality which were defined through life experience as the 'I', there exists the actual 'Experiencer' - the ONE doing the observing, the 'Doer'. This is the true identity. It exists even after all of the precepts, personality, that the 'I' had built in it's lifetime, have been completely removed. It has always existed, and will always exist. Remove all of the notions that define you as who you are in this lifetime... there still exists a consciousness who is the one who is experiencing. That is the real you. And it's the same Doer or Experiencer in ALL of us, who is subjectively experiencing itself through many many of these characters who call themselves 'I'. The problem is that we have gotten so caught up in playing the acracter, we have forgotten we were only acting in our own play.

Yes this can't be turned into a belief. That's not good enough. It has to be experienced. It has to be something you come to know.

This would suggest Creatorion is separate from Creator... same as Christianity, Islam etc teaches. However I have not found one single tuk in Gurbani which suggests Creation and Creator are separate.

And yes our job is to merge back with Creator... however... we are not separate so merging is not a good word to use really.

Well that's the word that Guru Sahibs love.

Creation and creator are separate because that is how He created us.

Sanjog (merging) Vijog (separting) duay kaar chalavai (He operates them both)

It is a reality that we are separate from HIm but we can merge with him.

You are making an error in that you think Gurus are pure advaitists, they are not. They are vishisht-advaitists, thus "Merging back" is the perfect phrase.

[BhagatSingh]

ChzS1ngh said it perfectly in a different post...

There you go.

[Guest]

Acccording to my understanding, In order to understand such deep subject, relative and absolute truth/realities are given in gnosis of all religions:

Absolute Truth(Nirgun-Pure Divine Knowledge-Bhramgyan) and Relative Truth(Sargun-Devotional):

From Absolute truth perspective (Nirgun)- Nanak parbhram is not form or dual being or dual icon, its

-unchanged non dual(Advai purkh) state of absolute truth experienced in meditation (full never ending spontaneous abidance in it its liberation-bhramgyan)-

-its absolute truth- its all pervading god, god in all, all in God which Gurbani call various names- Vahiguru/Ikongkar/Nirankar/Parbhram/Niranjan/Advait- Ekankar/

Zeman Zaman bhikie Ek Jot hai- (Supreme soul) which is everyone and everything,

-its pure unconditioned awareness- its unchanged state of absolute supreme state (Sehaj Nirvakalp Non transcendental ) ALIVE JOT(Pure knowledge) which is already present in one in all, all in one- which is described in Jaap sahib by sri guru gobind singh ji-

Achal Morat Anubhav Parkash Amitooj Khiijaie || (Achal Morat -Pure unconditioned thoughtless awareness -Anubhav Parkash - Intuitive spontaneous infinite ocean of divine knowledge- Bhramgyan Amitoj Khijaie - All effulgence, non-descript Ocean)

From Relative truth perspective (Sargun)- Nanak parbhram which appeared in 1469 in form which is pure perfection expression of divine came in this earth to provide calmness to lava burning earth of five vices, taking people across from worldly ocean to absolute truth.

Before we box above two things into conceptual mind, it has to relate to one experience, which reality resonates more with one individually thats individual feeling, some will be naturally drawn to sargun devotional saroop of nanak- iconic/figure/being but some will be naturally drawn to gyan saroop of nanak which is all prevading god, god in all, all in god which also means you are that absolute reality as well equally.

Satguru nanak ultimate saroop is nirgun saroop which is undivided one non dual god (all in one, one in all) as thats the source- its seed bij- thats seed form appeared from seed and disappeared back into seed.

[paapiman]

"Satguru Nanak Aap Parmeswar - Avtaar Lie Shubh Bans Pardhana".

Sri sarbloh Granth

What do you think guru gobind Singh Ji is talking about with this tuk?

PS: The punjabi version is in the tarna dal gutka... I tried finding it online but couldn't...

Good one bro.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[truthseeker546]

Sorry I've been occupied with a few things of late, this couldn't come on this forum. I asked some questioned regarding this topic in my post "Gods and Gurus" .. I will continue to write on this topic on that thread.

Some of the answers to Gurus being God cause more problems then solutions, "we are all part of God" - then whom are we worshipping? How can (Humans) be part of God himself, then reincarnate as lesser being, etc etc... and so on.