What Defines A Cult?

[Guest]

Since there has been lot of talk surrounding these term 'cult', allow me to open up this new thread- what defines a cult?

Here is my view:

Q. What organization defines a cult?

- It's not so much organization itself which is defined as cult but rather cultish perception of individual paying cultish allegiance to its organization, define as cult. So in broader context, any group can fall into cult due to cultish perception of its followers.

Organization is as good its followers, its actually followers define the organization not the other way around.

I will clarify more later on.

[ramgharia]

i the other therd papiman ji said that namdharis are cult can he explane me why. if they follow gurubani how they are cult?

[Guest]

Here are my thoughts that i posted few years ago on forum:

 

 

First thing first, I am not against any jatha or samparda nor i m against any sant mahapursh/bhai sahib/prof/dr/gursikhs/senior gurmukhs who put panth at first. But with that being said, i am vehemently against any idea which promotes cultish tendacies/individual cultish perception (be it from youths, grown ups) which super imposes itself on the panth. I am sure humkire sahib ji can contribute on to this thread as this something i can agree with him totally.

 

Personally speaking, I used to be quite cultish 5-6 years ago, i used to box the khalsa panth into a tunnel, made my own little idea/world of khalsa panth in my specific case was nanaksar and anything outside of nanaksar didn't pay any attention for eg- anything outside of teaching of baba nand singh ji maharaj regarding gurbani. My yard stick to measure an authenticity of gurbani regarding sri dasam granth and sri sarbloh granth was soley based on to see if baba nand singh maharaj quoted it and if he did - accept it fully while didn't pay attention to other compositions. There wasn't or isn't anything wrong with nanaksar or baba nand singh ji maharaj or samparda or jatha itself but everything was wrong with "my cultish perception" which boxed khalsa panth into tunnel vision seeing khalsa panth via nanaksar/googles of nanaksar.

 

Then I looked into amish/mormon/ jevoh witness type of followers and studied them, as jevoh witness came to our house few times to do their parchar and everytime they would come- i would be quite pissed at them but reality sanked in- i was shocked that despite of jevoh witness different belief system than us. Jevoh Witness followers and I have very similar things in common which was "cultish perception". But as they say, even oppositions can give people reality checks and i am living example of it..!!, things start changing slowly where i opened up my horizon slightly- smell more beauty of diversity flowers around me. Now thanks to maharaj, i consider myself quite lucky my cultish perception was destroyed by maharaj himself and i could see panth at times from 360 degree angle specially when i am contemplating/self reflecting on things.

 

Surely jatha and samparda's in the panth- be it akj, taksal, nirmale, udasi, sevapanthis, nihangs, soho rd- niskham seva jatha, 3ho dodra are all essential and its there to help to motivate someone in khalsa panth, they are all needed. We cannot do rejection or favor one over another but we need to be extremely careful when jatha/samparda's becomes driving force in one's individual sikhi rather than gurbani- kirtan, katha, patt, simran/meditation and seva.

 

I too also need to be careful in parchar regarding jatha and samparda so that i don't villify their followers as reverse villify them is just as bad (another extreme) but i do think perception is everything- one could be still in jatha or taksal is still be quite open minded in diversity and vice versa.

 

Nothing needs to changed in the jatha, samparda or maryada or anything in khalsa panth but only individual's perception of looking at things, perceiving things.

 

I will end by very shocking quote i got from facebook which lead me honestly start this topic. Again not villifying any specific jatha or samparda's- cultish taksalis are just as bad where bhramgyani baba thakur singh ji barsi program overshadow inadvertently sahibzadais' shahedi divas instead of striking a right balance, cultish mentality is human problem cannot be tied to specific group or jatha.

 

Anyway here is quote from an individual which lead me to open this new topic:

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Ironically enough, i had a same perception as this individual 5-6 years ago but by maharaj kirpa things have changed for me, this is classic example what we need to refrain from, i don't want people to make same mistakes like i did wasted years of my life..!!

 

 

 

 

 

[sukrit kaur]

Beautiful veer ji!!!

Same I think so!!

We are ignoring Gurbani and main /true purpose of our life.

Dhan Guru Ramdass Patsah!!

Aap hi mehar karn...

WJKKWJKF!!

[paapiman]

Quote

Personally speaking, I used to be quite cultish 5-6 years ago

Unquote

Bro, you were not cultish. Nanaksar is a Sikh sect, which traces its roots back to the tenth master. It is not a cult.

Having said that, tunnel vision is not that great, in the realm of spirituality.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited May 23, 2015 by paapiman

[Guest]

Quote

Personally speaking, I used to be quite cultish 5-6 years ago

Unquote

Bro, you were not cultish. Nanaksar is a Sikh sect, which traces its roots back to the tenth master. It is not a cult.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

You are not getting my point, nanaksar being sect/order or not has nothing to do with it, its cultish perception-excessive attachment/over obsessiveness to particular sect/order constitutes a cultish mentality is an hindrance to one's spirituality not the sect itself.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Paapiman just because one sect might not trace same roots back doesn't make them a cult. You didn't understand what he is saying.

Viewing one sect as the be all end all and dismissing any groups that disagree with you ... That is cultish behaviour while the group itself might not be a cult.

You keep dismissing any sect for treating women as equal and will only look at how DDT looks at women. You refuse to accept anyone else's view and call them a cult for treating women as equals. You follow only DDT views which would have women as inferior and beneath men and have women bowing to men out of inferiority. That behaviour can be seen as cultish... Even though DDT themselves are not a cult. Groups that treat women as equal are following Gurbani... They are not disregarding it. You keep calling them cults though. Which is why I was trying to show you that your idea of what a cult is was flawed.

[paapiman]

You are not getting my point, nanaksar being sect/order or not has nothing to do with it, its cultish perception-excessive attachment/over obsessiveness to particular sect/order constitutes a cultish mentality is an hindrance to one's spirituality not the sect itself.

Your point is right, in a sense.

Cult is associated with falsehood. That is why, the above post was made.

Edited May 23, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

i the other therd papiman ji said that namdharis are cult can he explane me why. if they follow gurubani how they are cult?

Bro, the answer is very simple.

Simple definition of a cult:

Quote

a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

Unquote [1]

[1] - http://dictionary.re...browse/cult?s=t

Namdharis believe in the false theory that tenth master passed on the gurgaddi to Baba Balak Singh jee and not to SSGGSJ. This one point is more than enough, to prove that Namdhari group is a cult.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[CdnSikhGirl]

Your point is right, in a sense.

Cult is associated with falsehood. That is why, the above post was made.

Right and Gurbani says over and over that same light of God is in both genders and that neither one is above the other and that we are to see ALL with single eye of equality.

Then doing things the way that so called 'orthodox' sects how they see women as inferior, and make them acknowledge that inferiority by bowing to men, and disallow women from full participation in all seva... those actions are FALSE. Therefore do you think they fall under the definition of a 'cult'???

You said anyone who disregards ANY part of Gurbani is false and hence is a cult... so please answer the above. And I can back my point with Gurbani... Gurbani that is IN CONTEXT.

Page 599, Line 2

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥

Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||

As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||

Look upon ALL with single eye of equality. So DDT have women look upon husband as God. But do not tell husband to look at his wife the same way. DDT are creating perceived inequality. That goes against the above tuk and many others. The above tuk is IN CONEXT in the shabad its in without having to twist it and remove from the shabad to use by itself alone. So they are spreading FALSE teaching!

want more??

Page 446, Line 12

ਸਭ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਮਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਸਭੁ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਨ ਜੀਉ ॥

Sabẖ ek ḏarisat samaṯ kar ḏekẖai sabẖ āṯam rām pacẖẖān jī▫o.

They look upon all with equality, and recognize the Supreme Soul, the Lord, pervading among all.

Again this one is also IN CONTEXT of the shabad its in! Without having to twist anything and remove it from the shabad as a stand alone tuk!

More??

Page 833, Line 16

ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਭ ਸਮ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਵੈ ਸਭੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਸਰਈਆ ॥੭॥

Ėk ḏarisat sabẖ sam kar jāṇai naḏrī āvai sabẖ barahm pasra▫ī▫ā. ||7||

With a single, impartial eye, look upon all alike, and see God pervading all. ||7||

I could post MANY more just the same! ALL throughout SGGSJ! You are saying that anyone who disregards or doubts ANY part of Gurbani are a 'cult' yet so called 'orthodox' sects seem to forget these MANY MANY tuks on equality, and treat women as inferior to men. You didn't even dispute this fact when shown in another thread. You just quoted 'rehet maryada' as reason. Yet you just said on this thread that ANYONE who doubts or disregards ANY PART of Gurbani are a 'cult'

So .... according to your own description of what a cult is... the so called 'orthodox' sects fall into 'YOUR' description of a cult!! Because they disregard Gurbani on equality! Remember the above are only a few of the MANY MANY places Gurbani makes this statement and ALL OF THEM are IN CONTEXT in their shabads and are not removed as a single tuk and twisted the words backwards to fit an agenda!

Gurbani even tells us to avoid the 'different schools of philosophy' who wrongly teach that some are above others... and instead encourages us to see everyone equally!!! This counts whether we are looking at different sects as beneath our own sect, or also gender. ALL humans are equal! ALL humans have the same potential. ALL humans deserve the same opportunities and none should be forced to see themselves as inferior and bow to other humans who are equal to them.

Page 1103, Line 18

ਦਰਸਨੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਭਏ ਸਮਦਰਸੀ ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵਹਿਗੇ ॥੨॥

Ḏarsan cẖẖod bẖa▫e samaḏrasī eko nām ḏẖi▫āvhige. ||2||

Giving up the different schools of philosophy, I look upon all equally; I meditate only on the One Name. ||2||

Edited May 23, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Ragmaala]

Can someone give me the punjabi/hindi/sanskrit version of the word Cult ?

Thanks.

[Singh123456777]

Satkiran this is not a DDT bashing thread so stop

[Guest]

Satkiran this is not a DDT bashing thread so stop

I agree we can talk about cultish mentality lets not bring any sect or order into the picture lets just focus on cultish perception of individual because thats what makes the organization 'cultish'.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Its also not an AKJ or Naamdharis (and others) other bashing thread so why nobody jump on Paapiman when he said so??

My point was not to bash DDT. My point was to show Paapiman that his very own description of a cult actually works against the sects he holds dear, which are the so called 'orthodox' sects because he describes any sect as not following ALL of Gurbani or doubting any of it as a cult. So I was trying to show how his definition of a cult is flawed.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[mahanpaapi]

most times limitless love and devotion of a path or realized individual is perceived as cultish by rational minds, because love and devotion, if all, can be understood only by those who have intensity of similar feelings, there are numerous examples of the same in the realm of worldly and divine love.

[Singh123456777]

Its also not an AKJ or Naamdharis (and others) other bashing thread so why nobody jump on Paapiman when he said so??

My point was not to bash DDT. My point was to show Paapiman that his very own description of a cult actually works against the sects he holds dear, which are the so called 'orthodox' sects because he describes any sect as not following ALL of Gurbani or doubting any of it as a cult. So I was trying to show how his definition of a cult is flawed.

Just stop.

[harsharan000]

Cult or sect, can be called to all those who personaly or collectively do not worship Wahiguru Akal Purukh, the highest Power, or Supreme Consciousness, sole Reality.

There can be no greater "durmat", to not be blessed to worship and adore Him.

To influence and pollute others with hatred, and violence, which leads to fanatism, thus spiritual ignorance, is also cult, howsoever they may appear religiously inclined.

Being religious is not synonymous to become spiritually enlightened.

Either one loves Wahiguru, and one has Him as his/her goal, or not, that´s it in short.

Now how to love, worship and adore Him, is another topic, but basically, under the term cult, comes everyone who does not have Wahiguru as his/her, Aadhaar.

As the Bani says: Santa kee tek toon, bhakta kee oat toon, Sachaa sirjan haar ....

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited May 24, 2015 by harsharan000

[CdnSikhGirl]

Just stop.

How is my point invalid... and why have you not told him to stop?

[ramgharia]

nirankaris are cult.

[ramgharia]

group or movement may be a cult if it acts in ways that are illegal or otherwise unacceptable in a civilized society.

Silly example: a restaurant that serves a perfectly acceptable, genuine tomato soup by pouring it into your lap is sociologically a cult restaurant.

An Example from religion

Christian theologians consider the Mormon Church to be theologically a cult of Christianity.

That is true because compared with historic, Bible-based Christianity, the Mormon Church rejects, changes or adds to the essential doctrines of the Christian faith to such an extend that Mormonism must be regarded as having separated itself from the faith it claims to represent, and instead having established a new religion that is not compatible with historic, Bible-based Christianity.

Yet the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) the official name of the Mormon Church claims to be not only a) Christian in nature, but also the only true expression of historical Christianity. Mormonism in reality has usurped and plagiarized Christian terminology and scriptures, creating a new religion.

Not a sect or denomination That means the Mormon Church can also not be considered a Christian denomination nor a sect of Christianity

The term sect is often used to indicate a group or movement that while still part of the faith it identifies with has doctrines or practices not in line with those of historical Christianity, but usually not to such an extend that it must be considered a different religion altogether.

From a Christian perspective that religion fits meaning #2 in the dictionary definition quoted above, since it is a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious.

In its turn, the Mormon Church likewise does its best to distinguish itself from groups that it considers to be separate religious movements even while those movement claim to represent historical Mormonism. [important: note that the term sect itself is also ambiguous, and to make things even more confusing is often used instead of the term cult.]

Yet those who deal primarily with the sociological characteristics of groups and movements usually find little to nothing in Mormonism and the Mormon Church that would cause them to apply the term cult because their evaluation is based largely on how the group or movement acts, rather than what it beliefs.

Confusion

When people use the term cult without qualifying what they mean by that word, their statements tend to cause confusion.

The term should be placed in context: XYZ is a cult in the theological sense, because. 123 is a cult in the sociological sense, because

Cult Experts

Cult experts come from a variety of backgrounds and perspectives.

While some experts who approach cults from a sociological view generally do not address theological issues, those who deal with cults from a theological perspective often also address sociological issues.

The latter is a better approach, since peoples actions are informed by their beliefs.

Cults both theologically and

sociologically

A prime example of a cult of Christianity (as defined theologically) that developed into a full-blown cult (as defined sociologically) is the Children of God, now called The Family International.

Another example of a cult of Christianity (as defined theologically) that developed into a cult (as defined sociologically) is the International Churches of Christ a notorious example of an abusive church.

The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, whose members are referred to as Jehovahs Witnesses, theologically is a cult of Christianity, and sociologically has countless cult-like elements as well.

Cults in other religions

Cults as defined theologically also exist in other religions. The definition holds, as long as a certain group claims to be part of, or representative of, a religion while at the same time violating that religions essential doctrines.

Essential doctrines are those doctrines that define a given religions basic essence. Much the same way, say, a tuna salad must include tuna, religions have basic, essential ingredients (doctrines).

Variety of Cults

Groups said to be cults are not necessarily religious.

Such is the case with, for instance, political cults (e.g. Lyndon LaRouche), psycho-spiritual or self-improvement workshops (LGAT, Large Group Awareness Training), and hate groups (e.g. Ku Klux Klan, White Supremacists)

[paapiman]

nirankaris are cult.

Bro, not all Nirankaris are cultists. There are two factions of Nirankaris. Sant Nirankari mission is a cult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sant_Nirankari_Mission

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[paapiman]

Can someone give me the punjabi/hindi/sanskrit version of the word Cult ?

Thanks.

According to a Hindi dictionary:

Cult - Panth, mat, etc -- http://www.shabdkosh.com/hi/translate?e=sect&l=hi

Sect - Panth, mat, etc -- http://www.shabdkosh.com/hi/translate?e=sect&l=hi

It seems that they are synonyms in Hindi, but I think there is a difference between them in English.

If someone can find the right word in Punjabi/Hindi/Sanskrit for a deviant group, that would be great.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited May 24, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

so the mainstream Sikhi follows Akal Takht and Sikh Rehet Maryada.

The fact that DDT and Nihang etc reject mainstream Sikhi and use their own Rehet Maryada, even after Panthic decision, changing some core doctrine regarding equality of gender, and ignoring / disregarding / doubting Gurbani stand on equality Of gender, then DDT and Nihang are "theologically" cults of Sikhi. AKJ would be too because of their different stance on keski, etc.

The only non cultists of Sikhi in a theological sense (using the article above) would be those who do not belong to any sect at all, follow Sikh Rehet Maryada and acknowledge Akal Takht as authority... Which statistically are in the majority anyway.

.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[paapiman]

Hopefully, one day, Sikhs will have one basic Rehat Maryada and Sri Akal Takht sahib will be free, from any outside influence(s).

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee fateh

Edited May 24, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

Hopefully, one day, Sikhs will have one basic Rehat Maryada and Sri Akal Takht sahib will be free, from any outside influence(s).

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee fateh

I am perfectly ok with that! As long as they keep the equality taught in SGGSJ, allow women to do all seva (look at 'all' with single eye of equality), and do not discriminate against women (or include lines that hint at female inferiority). I pray for that day actually!

Raagmala is only a small issue for me... all it seems to be is instruction how to sing /read gurbani in classical raag. It's describing the way that SGGSJ is laid out in musical notation... So I don't see how people are so upset about it on either side?? It seems like such a petty issue...

And the banis in the morning issue... 3 or 5 doesn't matter to me. Though I already have to listen to them on MP3 as I get ready for work because I am already up at ridiculously early hours to go to work (such is life of shift worker in military).

Edited May 24, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur