SikhKhoj Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) It might sound a stupid question to some, but what are the main differences you see in Sikhi (psyche/soch, rehat, etc) that changed post Guru Gobind Singh administering Khandi Di Pahul.I am asking this because the more I delve into history (and oral sources) the more I notice that Khandi Di Pahul was not a complete u-turn from earlier traditions and Gurus. Some authors have 'criticized' Guru Gobind Singh ji for making Sikhi more militant and what not, but they forget that the first militant were Guru Nanak Dev himself. There are so many traditions we link to post Khalsa Sikhi that were actually in vogue prior to the Pahul ceremony too.A very important point came into my mind; perhaps this is why near contemponary sources do not lay that much stress on the first Khande Di Pahul ceremony as we wish to see? It is mentioned quite casually in some early Granths and it is only later that it is made into more details with added hoo haa.PS. I respect the Amrit Sanchaar ceremony and Guru Gobind Singh as much as all Gurus because they were all Nanak Jot so don't even try to get there.Dal, neo, amardeep, singh123.., chatanga, paapiman - give your opinions. Edited June 24, 2015 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 There is this theory that 'perhaps because the Khalsa event just happened and it was fresh in peoples minds the authors did not deem it necessary to include details about the ceremony in the (near) contemponary sources'. It is not really a convincing theory, you could say that about most contemponary things the authors wrote, weren't those fresh in peoples minds too?Perhaps, it was simply because the divide in pre 1699 Sikhi to post was not deemed as big as we perceive it to be now? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 The foundations of Khalsa were laid down by sahib Sri guru Nanak dev Ji. Sikhs after Sri guru hargobind sahib Ji usually kept shastar cause the guru used to ask for shastars etc. The first guru told to keep hair, do sat sang and wake up at amrit vela all these are fundamental things in Amrit sanchar. A lot of the Sikhs were already martial by the time 1699 rolled by. The only thing that in my opinion changed is the ceremony. Sikhs before 1699 most likely refrained from doing the 4 kruheits cause the previous gurus most likely told them. The same jot that is in the first guru is the same jot in the tenth guru so it's not like the tenth guru would do a u turn completely. Just my two cents. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 The previous gurus used to have kasharey karas and Kangas as well and many of them did have Sri sahibs as well. If you go to patiala there is a Sri sahib of the ninth guru. So the tenth guru made the kakaars mandatory. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I agree. Gokul Chand Narang put it beautifully when he said:"The seed, which blossomed in the time of Guru Govind Singh, had been sown by (Guru) Nanak and watered by his successors. The sword which carved the Khalsa's way to the glory was undoubtedly, forged by Guru Govind [Singh] , but the steel had been provided by Guru Nanak"I am aware of Guru Hargobinds Kachehra, Guru Tegh Bahadurs Kara. What else do you know of? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I agree. Gokul Chand Narang put it beautifully when he said:"The seed, which blossomed in the time of Guru Govind Singh, had been sown by (Guru) Nanak and watered by his successors. The sword which carved the Khalsa's way to the glory was undoubtedly, forged by Guru Govind [Singh] , but the steel had been provided by Guru Nanak"I am aware of Guru Hargobinds Kachehra, Guru Tegh Bahadurs Kara. What else do you know of?The 9th gurus kanga and 11-20 inch Sri sahib. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Is the Kangha also in Patna or elsewhere? The Kirpan is at which Gurdwara in Patiala? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Who with hair wouldn't have a kangha? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Can also have a kanghi lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) And some say Gurus prior to Guru Gobind Singh did not have long hair or turbans. Edited June 25, 2015 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I guess main difference would be treh murda vs panj kakars..nihang life style or maryada of having shastars in dastar rather than kirpan with gatra overtly all the time..how puratan is gatra not sure? Also another main differences seem amrtidhari nirmale and sevapanthis exempt from five kakars (with exception of kesh off course) as they are given different bana, maryada..nirmale maryada (its listed in shudaran granth)..puratan maryada seems quite diverse compare to what we see now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Can you elaborate on the difference between Trai Mudra and Panj Kakkaar? I know the Mudra is the Kach Kes Kirpan found in puratan Granths (as opposed to 'Kakkaar' which is found in more recent works). But what do you mean by 'difference' in regards to that? Shudaran Granth? Or Suddharm Granth by Bhup Singh? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Sikhs 11 years after creation of Khalsa became serious problem for mughals as many non sikh historians has to write about Banda. On the other hand after martydom of Guru tegh Bahadur in 1675 , there was hardly any minor revolt , this clearly shows that there was difference between post 1699 and pre 1699 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Sikhs 11 years after creation of Khalsa became serious problem for mughals as many non sikh historians has to write about Banda. On the other hand after martydom of Guru tegh Bahadur in 1675 , there was hardly any minor revolt , this clearly shows that there was difference between post 1699 and pre 1699Bro, don't forget the four battles fought by the sixth master with the Mughals. He had crushed them in those four battles, with mostly unseasoned soldiers.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Bro, don't forget the four battles fought by the sixth master with the Mughals. He had crushed them in those four battles, with mostly unseasoned soldiers.Bhul chuk maafIn military terms, those conflicts would be deemed minor skirmishes. And even our own traditions say that a lot of mercenaries where employed at that stage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 In military terms, those conflicts would be deemed minor skirmishes. And even our own traditions say that a lot of mercenaries where employed at that stage. Bro, in one of the battles, more than 50,000 men were involved. I don't think that will be classified as a minor skirmish. The Mughal government was also involved, in some of those battles.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Bro, in one of the battles, more than 50,000 men were involved. I don't think that will be classified as a minor skirmish. The Mughal government was also involved, in some of those battles.Bhul chuk maaf I'm talking about the early battles with chevin patshah. In terms of serious numbers, I'd say those kind of battles started with Banda Singh Bahadur. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I'm talking about the early battles with chevin patshah. In terms of serious numbers, I'd say those kind of battles started with Banda Singh Bahadur.The second last post, was regarding the battles of the sixth master.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) The second last post, was regarding the battles of the sixth master.Are you saying 50,000 people were involved in these battles? I'm not clear. Also, continuing with the evidence of Sri Gursobha. Panj hathiar get mentioned a number of times - not panj kakkar. Edited June 25, 2015 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Are you saying 50,000 people were involved in these battles? I'm not clear.In one of the battles fought by sixth master, more than 50,000 people were involved. It cannot be classified as a minor skirmish.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Bro, don't forget the four battles fought by the sixth master with the Mughals. He had crushed them in those four battles, with mostly unseasoned soldiers.Bhul chuk maafHow do non sikh sources view those battles , Mughal, muslims , Hindu , Europeans etc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anandpuria Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Piara Singh Padam in his book Rahitname says at page 35 that noRahetnma lists the five items or Kakars together. Still none of these items can be ignored. Anywhere else word Kakar is not found till after arrival of the Britsh. After the British disarmed and disbanded the Sikh army keeping arms was prohibited. Baba Ram Singh Namdhari was forced to advise his sikhs newly administered Khande Di Pahul in 1857 April to keep a Sota or thick bamboo staff instead of a Sri Sahib. Other Sikhs too resorted keeping atiny replica about two or three inches long in their turban. Ultimately in early 20th century after the Kirpan morcha British Govt. agreed only to allow a nine incches long 'Karad' that we now call a Kirpan. The actual Kirpan ordained by tenth Guru ji after Khande the Pahul was around two and a half feet minimum. So, except for a few Jathedar or Nihangs most Singhs are wearing including this writer the version of 'Kirpan' not specified by tenth Guru ji but by the British authorities. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 In one of the battles fought by sixth master, more than 50,000 people were involved. It cannot be classified as a minor skirmish.Bhul chuk maaf Where did you get this information from? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I have'nt been able to find any Mughal source that mentions the battles with Guru Hargobind Sahib's army. Please do provide if there are any. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I betcha it will be along the lines of 'some brahmgyani told me'... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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