paapiman Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) Amrit (Khanday wale) ceremony was revolutionary, especially when it came to eliminating caste/racial differences.QuoteThen he made them partake food from the same steel bowl,In order to eliminate all distinction of caste and race.Unquote [1][1] - Sri Gur Panth PrakashI think, this was new, if we compare it to the previous nine gurus. Now, Brahmins and Khatris, had to drink Amrit from the same bowl, as that of a Shudar.Bhul chuk maaf Edited June 25, 2015 by paapiman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Amrit (Khanday wale) ceremony was revolutionary, especially when it came to eliminating caste/racial differences.QuoteThen he made them partake food from the same steel bowl,In order to eliminate all distinction of caste and race.Unquote [1][1] - Sri Gur Panth PrakashI think, this was new, if we compare it to the previous nine gurus. Now, Brahmins and Khatris, had to drink Amrit from the same bowl, as that of a Shudar.Bhul chuk maafThat's what people don't like to face up to. The Khande Amrit ceremony was the most overt attempt to level a disgustingly caste ridden society hinged on inequality. THAT is what differentiates us from other Indian movements. It's a shame that phudhoos today have totally negated that by bringing in jaat/paat/tribal gundh into Sikh social order. Shame on them. And the number one culprit right now is the jatt phudhoo club that is the SGPC/Akali Dal. That's how far we've gone from our moorings. On another angle: we've got phudhoos inside our community who are more concerned with trying to help with outsider issues (like Palestine, or the west's war on oil rich Arab lands), then trying to straighten out our own backwards society.... What a bunch of dicks. Edited June 26, 2015 by dalsingh101 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 ^^^Wow strong language bro 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Can you elaborate on the difference between Trai Mudra and Panj Kakkaar? I know the Mudra is the Kach Kes Kirpan found in puratan Granths (as opposed to 'Kakkaar' which is found in more recent works). But what do you mean by 'difference' in regards to that? Shudaran Granth? Or Suddharm Granth by Bhup Singh? Where does the term kirpan come from?, Treh mudra is kesh kachera & kard. Crystal Edited June 26, 2015 by Crystal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Santokh Singh gives Karad in Trai Mudra while Sarabloh Granth and Naveen Panth Parkash give Kirpaan. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 ^^^Wow strong language broAnd rightly so bro. We've proper gone astray. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaikaara Posted June 27, 2015 Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 Where does the term kirpan come from?, Treh mudra is kesh kachera & kard. Crystal'Kirpan' comes from 'Krpaan' a sanskrit term for sword...i came across this word in Saptshati Chandi Paath of Rishi Markandey 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) 1. It would be wrong to call Guru Hargobinds battles mere 'skirmishes'. Skirmish is what happened during Guru Har Rais time. Some of 6th Patshahs battles involved more than just a few hundred soldiers. Commanders of the opponent side were killed and important Sikhs at our side were martyred too.2. I agree that Khande di Pahul was intended to eliminate the bhed-bhav (caste discrimination etc) but didn't the Sangat Pangat did that before too? If the Gurus could ask emperors and high officials to first partake in langar sitting with the common people before seeing them, queens to remove their purdah etc then I doubt any other step were left to 'remove' discrimination. And Charan Pahul, the preceding form of Khande Di Pahul, was distributed to all regardless of caste too.Anyways seems like there was no major change post 1699 (or whatever year the ceremony happened) and Khande Di Pahul ceremony didn't happen out of nowhere but was a gradual event and thus not as important, path breaking as we deem it to be. Thats why Granths like Gur Sobha mention it so casually, some Granths even say Guru simply selected 5 people (Panth Parkash, Das Gur Katha etc) and 'created' the Khalsa. Edited June 27, 2015 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 27, 2015 Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 It would be wrong to call Guru Hargobinds battles mere 'skirmishes'. I'm talking about it from a comparative military history perspective - with other large scale battles taking place around that time. Whatever the numbers, I'm aware of the deep significance of the conflicts, whether they involved two groups bumping into each other whilst out hunting or otherwise. They were the first overt physical challenge by Sikhs to one of the most powerful empires of the time. To me the importance doesn't lie in the scale, but the act that some Sikhs (led by their Guru no less), had the audacity to challenge the power structures of the time (especially in the context of Guru Arjan Dev ji's shaheedi having took place as an assertion of that authority not long ago). In terms of messages, the one from the Moghuls to the Sikhs (and their Guru) was along the lines of 'know your place'; the response to this overt and brutally put message in the form of Guru Hargobind's challenge to Moghul authority is of major importance in terms of a precedent of physical resistance, which culminated in the Khalsa. However many people were involved, it was the act of open defiance in the face of a real and exercised violent threat that matters. I can imagine Jahangir thinking: 'I just had this guy's father executed and he's challenging me like this now. These people haven't learnt their lesson.' 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) Could you elaborate on the 'comparative military history perspective' thing?On what basis did you term them 'skirmishes'? Edited June 28, 2015 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Khandey bata da Amrit was ground breaking still because it started making swallows into hawks. It have the strength and broke all boundaries of caste. There is still caste even today but the idea of caste hierarchy is what guru Ji wanted to destroy and he did. A jatt was still gonna do the job of jatt and a tarkhan or mistri is still gonna do their trade. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 That's what people don't like to face up to. The Khande Amrit ceremony was the most overt attempt to level a disgustingly caste ridden society hinged on inequality. THAT is what differentiates us from other Indian movements.Lol no. Charan pahul was no different. It's how the previous gurus and gurus of other Indian movements initiated people from different castes.The gurus feet were washed and all new initiates drank from the same bowl irrespective of caste.I think only Gurus 1, 2,3, 4, 5 and 9 initiated through charan pahul, 6, 7,8, 10 did not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Why didn't the other Gurus initiate through Charan Pahul? How did they initiate new Sikhs then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 I think only Gurus 1, 2,3, 4, 5 and 9 initiated through charan pahul, 6, 7,8, 10 did not.Any historical writings to back this up? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) 2. I agree that Khande di Pahul was intended to eliminate the bhed-bhav (caste discrimination etc) but didn't the Sangat Pangat did that before too? If the Gurus could ask emperors and high officials to first partake in langar sitting with the common people before seeing them, queens to remove their purdah etc then I doubt any other step were left to 'remove' discrimination. All other measures introduced by 9 masters were great, but khanday wala amrit was the pinnacle. Sitting with a so-called low caste is more comfortable that drinking from the same bowl, in which so-called low caste people are drinking.And Charan Pahul, the preceding form of Khande Di Pahul, was distributed to all regardless of caste too.Lol no. Charan pahul was no different. It's how the previous gurus and gurus of other Indian movements initiated people from different castes.The gurus feet were washed and all new initiates drank from the same bowl irrespective of caste.Was Charan pahul amrit given in a similar manner as khanday wala amrit? Can someone please elaborate? Was the same bowl given to all the people, to drink amrit?Bhul chuk maaf Edited June 29, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 All other measures introduced by 9 masters were great, but khanday wala amrit was the pinnacle. Sitting with a so-called low caste is more comfortable that drinking from the same bowl, in which so-called people are drinking.Was Charan pahul amrit given in a similar manner as khanday wala amrit? Can someone please elaborate? Was the same bowl given to all the people, to drink amrit?Bhul chuk maaf 1. In langar you eat food made from same cauldron and drink water from the same pitcher too. So invalid argument.2. Yes ofcourse? Do you think the Gurus gave charan pahul differently to people of different backgrounds? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 1. In langar you eat food made from same cauldron and drink water from the same pitcher too. So invalid argument.2. Yes ofcourse? Do you think the Gurus gave charan pahul differently to people of different backgrounds?1. The langar in the cauldron and water in the pitcher is sucha. The bowl which goes around in the amrit sanchar ceremony is jhoota (according to some) as multiple people are drinking from it.2. The same charan pahul was given, but was the same bowl used?Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 1. Multiple people drink from langar pitcher too, I don't get your logic?2. Yes same bowl as written in manuscripts which talk of Guru Nanak giving Charan Pahul. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) 1. Multiple people drink from langar pitcher too, I don't get your logic?2. Yes same bowl as written in manuscripts which talk of Guru Nanak giving Charan Pahul.Multiple people do drink, but the pitcher which is used to give water is kept sucha. In amrit sanchar, people are drinking (placing their lips) from the same bowl, when it goes around, towards the end of the ceremony.Bhul chuk maaf Edited June 29, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 In that sense, yes.We could also argue that langar is cooked from the hands of both brahmins and shudras (all castes), and all castes consume it equally? It is a very weak argument imho. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Multiple people do drink, but the pitcher which is used to give water is kept sucha. In amrit sanchar, people are drinking (placing their lips) from the same bowl, when it goes around, towards the end of the ceremony.Bhul chuk maafIs it hearsay I have heard that budha dal amrit for mazabis was a separate batta? Anyone confirm this or tell me its false? Bhulchak marfmarf Crystal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Its true, used to happen. Don't know about now. But thats not Sikhi. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) In that sense, yes.We could also argue that langar is cooked from the hands of both brahmins and shudras (all castes), and all castes consume it equally? It is a very weak argument imho. Ideally, plenty of sucham must be maintained while preparing and distributing langar. Therefore, no one is eating any one's jhoot (according to some), unlike drinking from the same Khanday wala amrit bowl.I am not exactly sure, how amrit sanchar was done before khanday wala amrit. If someone can provide details, that would be great.Btw, I think, Naamdharis give amrit in separate bowls. Can someone please confirm this?Bhul chuk maaf Edited June 30, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Is it hearsay I have heard that budha dal amrit for mazabis was a separate batta? Anyone confirm this or tell me its false? Bhulchak marfmarf CrystalIt has happened in the past, in Taksaal too. Strictly speaking, it is against Sikh principles, but there could be valid reasons for doing it.Bhul chuk maaf. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 It has happened in the past, in Taksaal too. Strictly speaking, it is against Sikh principles, but there could be valid reasons for doing it.Bhul chuk maaf.Valid reasons such as? Crystal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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