Why Sikhi failed to spread

[Guest]

This is excellent thread. However, we want to ensure this thread does not get lost in shuffle in many post replies. Can we ask everyone to give their closing statement just quick summary of thread, key points and closing statement so its readable to our viewers so once we are done with this thread. I will move all closing statements all the way at the end so its easily readable. 

Sometimes i wonder why sri akaal takth jathedar along jathedars of takths sahib don't have online representation where we can fwd interesting ideas from sangat for their next gurmatta meeting? speaking of that..when was last gurmatta ever held in the panth after bluestar? 

[namdhari55]

i think it also has to do with the fact that there were so many holocausts to exterminate the Sikhs by so many different groups.  

For instance ahmad shah abdali in 1762 annihilated over 60% of the Sikh population  These kind of holocausts happened many times to the Sikhs.

 

the better question would be how did the Sikhs survive during all these wars and still manage to exist till today

Even during the time of the British, they wrote that Sikhi wouldnt exist in a few decade and its a dying religion but today Sikhs are all across the world.

Edited July 14, 2015 by namdhari55

[kdsingh80]

This is excellent thread. However, we want to ensure this thread does not get lost in shuffle in many post replies. Can we ask everyone to give their closing statement just quick summary of thread, key points and closing statement so its readable to our viewers so once we are done with this thread. I will move all closing statements all the way at the end so its easily readable. 

Sometimes i wonder why sri akaal takth jathedar along jathedars of takths sahib don't have online representation where we can fwd interesting ideas from sangat for their next gurmatta meeting? speaking of that..when was last gurmatta ever held in the panth after bluestar? 

​Crazy online debaters will engage them 24 into 7 .We now have so many opposite views in sikhism  that it is difficult to engage in discussions. 

[paapiman]

 

On the contrary.... many scientists and anthropologists agree that humans only evolved beyond animal consciousness level by eating meat.  

And yes you can very much compare the two!  Either way the animal dies.  It's not about mind / body for us. It's about compassion for the animal.  

You can continue to wear animal flesh if you want... but then you can't speak out against eating meat because you would be a hypocrite.  And you condone wasting of the rest of the animal for use of only its skin. At least if the whole animal is used for food it sustains people.  Animal products that do not kill the animal like dairy and eggs are ok (as long as you practice good treatment of the animals in your ward) because they don't result in the animal giving its life.  

And that shabad is not directly saying go ahead and eat meat.  that wasnt what I was trying to say.  I was trying to show you the hyprocisy and also the futility of debating about meat (and blind rules) when you aren't evolved enough spiritually.

We will discuss this, in a new topic. Let's not go off-topic.

Bhuk chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

 

We will discuss this, in a new topic. Let's not go off-topic.

Bhuk chuk maaf

I am not really interested in discussing anything with you because you have a one track mind and you ignore Gurbani.

[kdsingh80]

 

On the contrary.... many scientists and anthropologists agree that humans only evolved beyond animal consciousness level by eating meat.  

And yes you can very much compare the two!  Either way the animal dies.  It's not about mind / body for us. It's about compassion for the animal.  

You can continue to wear animal flesh if you want... but then you can't speak out against eating meat because you would be a hypocrite.  And you condone wasting of the rest of the animal for use of only its skin. At least if the whole animal is used for food it sustains people. Animal products that do not kill the animal like dairy and eggs are ok (as long as you practice good treatment of the animals in your ward) because they don't result in the animal giving its life.  

And that shabad is not directly saying go ahead and eat meat.  that wasnt what I was trying to say.  I was trying to show you the hyprocisy and also the futility of debating about meat (and blind rules) when you aren't evolved enough spiritually.

Eggs and milk are also not killing free male chicks and calves are systematically eliminated , old hens and cows are also killed. In india old cows roam on street ,illegally slaughtered or sometime milkmen give money to people to take their old cows.This is where cows is considered as mother. If you use animal for your benefit then you have to kill it once its purpose is over

[CdnSikhGirl]

 

Eggs and milk are also not killing free male chicks and calves are systematically eliminated , old hens and cows are also killed. In india old cows roam on street ,illegally slaughtered or sometime milkmen give money to people to take their old cows.This is where cows is considered as mother. If you use animal for your benefit then you have to kill it once its purpose is over

Depends... here in North America, the eggs are never fertilized.  Female chickens will always lay eggs no matter what.  You can just let the males run free (but not have access to the females) and then problem solved.  You dont need to kill the male chickens. They are actually great pets!  I am more for the small operation farms.  Where they don't ever fertilize the chickens so the eggs can never be "alive".  You could have 10-12 chickens... even half and half... and the 6 females will still lay eggs even without the males having access to them.  And the males can just be pets frooroaming the property.  They can actually be quite social too!

As for milk.  Same thing.  I hate factory farming practices.  If you own a cow, or buy milk from a small time farmer, then baby cow can be fed and there will still be enough milk for the family (or to sell some).  No need to kill the baby cow.  Males can pull carts etc.

But I agree... that factory farming is very wrong and if you support it, you are still supporting animal killing, which I don't.

Entirely cutting out eggs and dairy though makes coming up with some variety in diet virtually impossible... no cakes, cookies, buscuits, most breads etc.  (the eggless ones are dense and dont taste right with the substitute options and some recipes etc just don't work with substitutes).  Anyway I agree Sikhi does not force vegetarianism... and I agree those who do try to suggest so, are likely hypocrites. Paapiman for example, thinks milk is ok... and states that the reason for vegetarianism has nothing to do with compassion for the animal, but that meat is bad for the health and mind... however he'd likely be surprised to know that adult humans were never meant to ingest milk at all!  Hence the very high amount of people on the planet who are lactose intolerant!

   

It is very easy to talk like a Brahangyani, but very hard to walk the talk.

Bhul chuk maaf

Well you can walk where you want to if you don't understand concepts that are EASY to understand from Gurbani (If you actually read it at all.. I get the impression ALL of your reading is propaganda from one group)

I know which way I am walking and dont need you to tell me.

Do you underdstand this:

ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਜਲੁ ਮੀਨਾ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਆਪਿ ਜਾਲੁ ॥
Ŧūʼn āpe jal mīnā hai āpe āpe hī āp jāl.
You Yourself are the water, You Yourself are the fish, and You Yourself are the net. 
ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਲੁ ਵਤਾਇਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਸੇਬਾਲੁ ॥
Ŧūʼn āpe jāl vaṯā▫iḏā āpe vicẖ sebāl.
You Yourself cast the net, and You Yourself are the bait.

I don't know why you think someone has to be a Brahamgyani to understand this concept of everything being the ONE.

Here read this article if you still can't comprehend it:
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/05/01/scientific-study-shows-meditators-collapsing-quantum-systems-at-a-distance/
and this one:
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/03/08/10-scientific-studies-that-prove-consciousness-can-alter-our-physical-material-world/

Anyway has nothing to do with why Sikhi didn't spread...

My closing statement:
Sikhi CAN spread, but not if we don't do more parchar.  And that parchar has to be free of associations to any specific Jatha or we will just confuse people. You can't say Sikhi has equality (equal treatment) of everyone and then teach certain taksals views and restrictions on women for example. Simnilarly with sarbloh bibek, meat eating, ragmala, keski, etc. So maybe just do parchar on the basics only.  For example, 10 Gurus, SGGSJ, Golden Temple, Concept of Seva, simran etc. And don't get into topics that have differences in different jathas etc.
Places to start?  Most cities have a day a year for World Religion Day... have a booth etc.  How about turban days? They have gone over very well especially when married with national holidays like Canada Day (the students tied red and white turbans on people and gave them basic info on Sikhi at the same time on Canada Day), Multicultural Festivals in your city, etc. Those are starting places!  I joined the Defence Visible Minority Advisory Group in the Canadian Navy here locally and trying to spread it that way.  There are many ways to do it without trying to suggestively convert people.  You'll always get some people who are so interested they go home and look it up on their own and decide to follow Sikhi

[Ragmaala]

I just wanted to say something about the Parchar.  It should be inspiring. It should give people a reason to follow Sikhi. More focus should be placed on the spiritual aspect of the Sikhi such as Bhagti, Japa, Meditation and inner experiences. Parcharaks who want to do parchar should atleast do a 3.6 million Jaap of Moolmantar or more to attain a spiritual experience before preaching others. These days everyone is a parcharak, without any kamai or bhagti. Or they have just read books or believe in something which they themselves don't know.

There are some great parcharaks that I really liked whose audio were available, there examples should be followed : Baba Ishar Singh Ji Kaleran, Sant Ishar Singh Ji Rara, Sant Waryam Singh Ji Rara, Santren Daya Singh Ji, Giani Thakur Singh because he made personal experiences of sadhaks available to commoners, Swami Rama Himalayan and Sadhguru from Isha Foundation. If someone wants to make a difference, they themselves have to achieve that level, have their 3rd eye opened and explain things to people clearly.

Rest Sikhi has not failed to spread, maybe this is the will of God to play it in such a way :)

[CdnSikhGirl]

What's your thoughts on Basics of Sikhi? Jagraj Singh Ji he has done a lot for spreading Sikhi I think! 

[paapiman]

 

ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਜਲੁ ਮੀਨਾ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਆਪਿ ਜਾਲੁ ॥
Ŧūʼn āpe jal mīnā hai āpe āpe hī āp jāl.
You Yourself are the water, You Yourself are the fish, and You Yourself are the net. 
ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਲੁ ਵਤਾਇਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਸੇਬਾਲੁ ॥
Ŧūʼn āpe jāl vaṯā▫iḏā āpe vicẖ sebāl.
You Yourself cast the net, and You Yourself are the bait.

Amazing state of a Brahamgyani.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

I don't know why you think someone has to be a Brahamgyani to understand this concept of everything being the ONE.
 

There is a difference in understanding the concept of oneness, and actually being able to see all as one, using Braham drishti.

Even, an idiot like me knows that everything is one.

Bhul chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

  

There is a difference in understanding the concept of oneness, and actually being able to see all as one, using Braham drishti.

Even, an idiot like me knows that everything is one.

Bhul chuk maaf

If you know it then put your Ego aside for bit and actually TRY to see it like this! It's not that difficult! Live as if everything and everyone are the same, then you will start to see it.  Forget about man made status, hierarchies etc.  treat everything and everyone the same and then you will start to see it.

[paapiman]

 

If you know it then put your Ego aside for bit and actually TRY to see it like this! It's not that difficult! Live as if everything and everyone are the same, then you will start to see it.  Forget about man made status, hierarchies etc.  treat everything and everyone the same and then you will start to see it. 

Let's stay on-topic.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 17, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

Back on topic... Basics of Sikhi started with just Jagraj Singh Ji and spread to a bunch of parcharaks in the UK. And they are doing (I think) great work in spreading Sikhi to the general public. They also run a youtube channel with tons of information on Sikhi.  Particularly interesting was the video where they were speaking and an older gentleman came up, and started making on about their kirpans.  (If I remember correctly Police were even there at the time, not because of this incident but because they were the ones BOS were talking to to begin with).  After they explained why Sikhs carry a kirpan, and explained to him what Sikhs stand for, by the end of the video his attitude completely changed.  So parchar DOES work and this is a good example.  Not saying this elder gentleman will go out and convert now, but I bet he will at least tell one person about his encounter!

Turban days work too! It's a good chance to strike up conversation while you tie a turban on a member of the public!  They will then tell everyone they encounter that day for as long as they keep it on, since they will likely be asked about it by others - and then the knowledge spreads... I know some people are against tying turbans on non-Sikhs as they are religious item, and should be treated with respect. But usually when you tell people that, they won't do anything to willfully disrespect it.  I've asked a few people who had it done before, and they kept them as a mememto and placed them into a drawer or somewhere for safe keeping.

Also check in your area when there are World Religion Day events, multicultural festivals etc. also military displays (like airshows etc) where a table can be set up with information on Sikh contrubitions in the world wars, in the militaries etc, include photos of Sikhs in uniform etc.  and that opens the door for discussion on the religious beliefs. 

I just gave about half a dozen ideas for ways to spread Sikhi without being seen as 'showving it down anyone's throats' as the saying goes.

[amardeep]

Satkirin Kaur: Basics of Sikhi is an amazing project. They do loads of good Work to bring people into Sikhi.

[chatanga1]

However, even in Punjab right now today there is a systematic program to convert all Mazhabi and Ravidassia Sikhs of today into tomorrow's Hindutva votebank by way of Balmiki and Dera Ballan Mandir franchises.

I dont know about Mazhabis, traditionally they have always voted between Akalis and Congress, but the Ravidassias or chamars do not return themselves as Sikhs, They have a separate classification called  "ad dharm" which is recognised as a religion. So the official number of Sikhs would not decrease because of the chamars being alienated from the Sikhs.

From my own interaction with them, they are happy to be classed as Sikhs even though they run religious services along Sikh lines.

Believe me, alot more than 2%.

I can't see this being feasible.

Even the muslims with their wanton genocides against the hindus and forceful conversion tactics only resulted in 25% of indias population after 800 years.

 

Another reason is that the Udasis and Nirmale samprdayes never had the numbers of the Dal Panth, so their parchar was achieving what? Compare that to the Dal Panth activities whereby they were repleting the Dal each and every year but also growing stronger, eventually to rule sizeable tracts of land.

If there were a good number of Sikhs in the other states, wouldn't they have been inclined to take control in their respective states following the example of the Dal? Or even come to Panjab to join the Misls?

There was a Whole category of terms used for non-ethnically Punjabi converts. Multani Singhs (Multan was part of Sindh back then), Kabul Singhs for the Afghans, Sayeed Singhs for the Muslim descendants of the prophet, Sheikh Singhs for what I think were the Muslim scholars that converted, Mughali Singhs, Baluchi Singhs was also a category from what I remember.

I have heard of Kabuli Sikh but never Singhs or mughali or baluchi singhs. where did you read this?

[chatanga1]

No it does not unless you deliberately misquote it, which the veggie brigade are quite adept at.

Here is one of the verses, which clearly prohibits meat eating and consuming intoxicants.

Thanks for proving me right Bhaji.

[paapiman]

 

Thanks for proving me right Bhaji.

We will discuss this, in a separate topic.

Bhul chuk maaf

[mrsingh]

I dont know about Mazhabis, traditionally they have always voted between Akalis and Congress,

Mr = Yes Paji sadly it's true. The so-called SC demographic is now the largest demographic in Punjab at around 32% of the east Punjab population, even larger than the Jat Sikh percentage which comprises 25% of the east Punjab population and hence why the Hindutva opponents of the Sikh Panth have systematically stepped up the proliferation of these Balmiki and Dera Ballan Mandirs in village after village in order to decimate the Sikh Panth demographically and culturally.

but the Ravidassias or chamars do not return themselves as Sikhs, They have a separate classification called  "ad dharm" which is recognised as a religion.

Mr = Paji whilst that may be true specifically in Doaba it should be remembered that the majority of Punjabi's from the leatherworking ancestry actually confirm themselves as Sikhs currently. So the ad dharmi component from Doaba was still a minority within the said demographic when Majha, Malwa and Doaba are considered collectively. However, since Vienna, dera Ballan Mandirs have proliferated in a pre-planned programme not just in Doaba but in Majha and unthinkably even in Malwa (where previously the overwhelmingly majority from a leatherworking ancestry returned themselves as Sikhs - where the ad dharmi percentage was negligible).

Mr = The obvious consequence of if all current Mazhabi and Ravidassia Sikhs of today return themselves as Balmiki (Hindu's) and Dera Ballan followers in the 2021 east Punjab census would be that the Sikh percentage in Punjab would fall below 50% conclusively ending any aspirations alluded to in the slogans we hear year after year.

So the official number of Sikhs would not decrease because of the chamars being alienated from the Sikhs.

Mr = the ad dharmi Congress pimps were already estranged from Sikhs. The more pressing matter is the attempted systematic and cultural re-classification of about 6million current Punjabi speaking Sikhs into tomorrow's Hindutva votebank by way of the Balmiki and Dera Ballan franchises being set up in every village. We have 6years to stop the rot and end biraderi discrimination and matrimonial apartheid because there will be no point us complaining when Sikhs potentially become a minority in Punjab by 2021.

I have heard of Kabuli Sikh but never Singhs or mughali or baluchi singhs. where did you read this?

Mr = Yes I can confirm what Amardeep Ji is saying as all major Muslim caste communities from the Rajputs, Jatts, Gujjars, Baluchi's, Syeds, Mughals all do have a minority percentage of Sikh adherents as can be seen from even the existence of bonafide Pathan Sikhs today such as even Afridi tribe Pathan Sikhs in Amardeep Ji's post with the link from a Pakistani newspaper.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1193942

 

Edited July 17, 2015 by mrsingh

[chatanga1]

Mrsingh are you the guptsingh1699 or the uklondon poster from sikh sangat?

Edited July 23, 2015 by chatanga1

[Crystal]

Mrsingh are you the guptsingh1699 or the uklondon poster from sikh sangat?

guptsingh1699 - admin cut

Crystal

[chatanga1]

no way. i always wondered where he went.

[Crystal]

no way. i always wondered where he went.

His avtar was a picture of guru granth sahib maharaj right? If its a picture of maharaj then pakka its sunny B Singh, if not then I've got the wrong end of the salotar singha. 

 

Crystal

Edited July 23, 2015 by Crystal
I hate auto correct

[SikhKhoj]

Chatanga, I asked mrsingh the same question in the other topic. His style with replying in several colours and using ' = ' is quite recognizable. He definitely has the same style as UKLondonSikh. The other poster on SS was isingh1699 with the Amrit Sanchaar DP, I think that was the previous account of UKLondonSikh.
The guy has good intentions but sometimes gives out wrong information.

Edited July 24, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[Guest]

Chatanga bro there's a group of them there infesting SikhSangat check posts by SinghSabha1699, DTF, UklondonSikh, isingh1699, ocelot and it's the same continual bs about drugs, caste, abortion time after time with nothing spiritual. Not surprising since they don't even consider the charitars as Gurbani

[Guest quality]

Sikhi is about quality not quantity. Sant ji said Hindu+Muslims should be good Hindu's and Muslims