Bhangra/Gidha Vs Sikhism

[paapiman]

You are making it sound one dances on only dirty sounds, you surely you have one dimensional view of this world. 

Bro, Daas never said that. Most likely, people do dance on good ethical songs too.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited October 18, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

In the clip below, Gyani jee narrates an encounter with a woman regarding the Punjabi folk dance, Bhangra.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[ipledgeblue]

what about those who do dance-style gatka instead of puraatan shastar vidiya?

[paapiman]

6 hours ago, londondajatt said:

what about those who do dance-style gatka instead of puraatan shastar vidiya?

Still better than Bhangra/Gidha.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

From Sri Aasaa kee Sahib jee

ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਹਸਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਸੇ ਰੋਇ ॥ (465-13)

Those who dance and dance and laugh, shall weep on their ultimate departure.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Lucky]

On 8/21/2017 at 12:17 PM, paapiman said:

In the clip below, Gyani jee narrates an encounter with a woman regarding the Punjabi folk dance, Bhangra.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

In my humble, but confident opinion,   . this pangtee is explained  out of context from the original verse.  :

The verse can be discussed and deciphered further if anyone wishes to do so. I'd be happy to add further., (although i won't be back on forum for a while)

 

Just reminding myself with the older responses from 2015 (page 1)

On 10/17/2015 at 10:04 PM, Lucky said:

There's nothing wrong with dancing

Dancing can be a form of worship......... It's about what your mind is focused on.

The few of you that may understand true bhangra, will actually know what the moves represent.

You can dance whilst you are doing sift salah of Waheguru, but again it's about your mind-atma connection.

Try it!

 

On 10/17/2015 at 10:34 PM, Lucky said:

Don't get mixed up............You have to realise that it is ''displays'' of worship that are not gurmat. ..and this means any kind of display, not just dancing.

Check my post again,, it's about your Mind-atma connection and what you have focused it on.

You have to realise what 'worship' really means.

A gurmukh is meant to get to stage of 24/7 saas saas and rom rom..........If you get there, then that means that any thing you do during that 24/7 can become acts of worship..because your mind will be tied like a knot with satguru.

 

 

On 10/17/2015 at 10:51 PM, Lucky said:

that's a poor excuse again.

You are saying that gurbani is only for brahmgyanee, ... a limited view is not going to help anyone get to that level.

and NO, the above is not a stage for brahmgyanee because if we make the effort then we can all get there. Brahmgyan comes when the person completely merges in with Brahm., when yoa and brahm become completely ik-mikh.... he becomes you and you become him....................You need to understand this..  as person doing 24./ saas saas doesn't have to be brahmgyaan.. that step comes after.......the complete merging of the mann......

Bro, you have to stop thinking inside the box and stop using only a brahmgyan can do this or do that. You are talking inside the box of your own panj chor and not seeing the truth of gurbani. Gurbani is not about translating it correctly to understand it...it's about ''feeling'' it and getting underneath the surface towards the SACH that it comes from. ......If you have no idea what I am talking about, then you haven't even attempted to see it's Truth

I see gurbani being played about too much on this forum as a tool for battling egos....I urge you all to please not do this and stop using it from it's surface levels. This makes you no better than the missionaries, who do exactly the same.

 

Below is the verse, .. and it's worth looking at it carefully (very carefully) and pondering over a few questions that I raised and asked myself. (at the end-below)

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ 
Mėhlā 1. 
First Mehl: 

ਵਾਇਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਨਚਨਿ ਗੁਰ ॥ 
vā▫in cẖele nacẖan gur. 
The disciples play the music, and the gurus dance. 

ਪੈਰ ਹਲਾਇਨਿ ਫੇਰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਸਿਰ ॥ 
Pair halā▫in ferniĥ sir. 
They move their feet and roll their heads. 

ਉਡਿ ਉਡਿ ਰਾਵਾ ਝਾਟੈ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
Ud ud rāvā jẖātai pā▫e. 
The dust flies and falls upon their hair. 

ਵੇਖੈ ਲੋਕੁ ਹਸੈ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
vekẖai lok hasai gẖar jā▫e. 
Beholding them, the people laugh, and then go home. 

ਰੋਟੀਆ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਤਾਲ ॥ 
Rotī▫ā kāraṇ pūrėh ṯāl. 
They beat the drums for the sake of bread. 

ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾੜਹਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ 
Āp pacẖẖāṛėh ḏẖarṯī nāl. 
They throw themselves upon the ground. 

ਗਾਵਨਿ ਗੋਪੀਆ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ॥ 
Gāvan gopī▫ā gāvan kānĥ. 
They sing of the milk-maids, they sing of the Krishnas. 

ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੀਤਾ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
Gāvan sīṯā rāje rām. 
They sing of Sitas, and Ramas and kings. 

ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ॥ 
Nirbẖa▫o nirankār sacẖ nām. 
The Lord is fearless and formless; His Name is True. 

ਜਾ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਗਲ ਜਹਾਨੁ ॥ 
Jā kā kī▫ā sagal jahān. 
The entire universe is His Creation. 

ਸੇਵਕ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਕਰਮਿ ਚੜਾਉ ॥ 
Sevak sevėh karam cẖaṛā▫o. 
Those servants, whose destiny is awakened, serve the Lord. 

ਭਿੰਨੀ ਰੈਣਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ॥ 
Bẖinnī raiṇ jinĥā man cẖā▫o. 
The night of their lives is cool with dew; their minds are filled with love for the Lord. 

ਸਿਖੀ ਸਿਖਿਆ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ 
Sikẖī sikẖi▫ā gur vīcẖār. 
Contemplating the Guru, I have been taught these teachings; 

ਨਦਰੀ ਕਰਮਿ ਲਘਾਏ ਪਾਰਿ ॥ 
Naḏrī karam lagẖā▫e pār. 
granting His Grace, He carries His servants across. 

ਕੋਲੂ ਚਰਖਾ ਚਕੀ ਚਕੁ ॥ 
Kolū cẖarkẖā cẖakī cẖak. 
The oil-press, the spinning wheel, the grinding stones, the potter's wheel, 

ਥਲ ਵਾਰੋਲੇ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਨੰਤੁ ॥ 
Thal vārole bahuṯ ananṯ. 
the numerous, countless whirlwinds in the desert, 

ਲਾਟੂ ਮਾਧਾਣੀਆ ਅਨਗਾਹ ॥ 
Lātū māḏẖāṇī▫ā angāh. 
the spinning tops, the churning sticks, the threshers, 

ਪੰਖੀ ਭਉਦੀਆ ਲੈਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਹ ॥ 
Pankẖī bẖa▫uḏī▫ā lain na sāh. 
the breathless tumblings of the birds, 

ਸੂਐ ਚਾੜਿ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ਜੰਤ ॥ 
Sū▫ai cẖāṛ bẖavā▫ī▫ah janṯ. 
and the men moving round and round on spindles - 

ਨਾਨਕ ਭਉਦਿਆ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਅੰਤ ॥ 
Nānak bẖa▫uḏi▫ā gaṇaṯ na anṯ. 
O Nanak, the tumblers are countless and endless. 

ਬੰਧਨ ਬੰਧਿ ਭਵਾਏ ਸੋਇ ॥ 
Banḏẖan banḏẖ bẖavā▫e so▫e. 
The Lord binds us in bondage - so do we spin around. 

ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਨਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
Pa▫i▫ai kiraṯ nacẖai sabẖ ko▫e. 
According to their actions, so do all people dance. 

ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਹਸਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਸੇ ਰੋਇ ॥ 
Nacẖ nacẖ hasėh cẖalėh se ro▫e. 
Those who dance and dance and laugh, shall weep on their ultimate departure. 

ਉਡਿ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ਸਿਧ ਨ ਹੋਹਿ ॥ 
Ud na jāhī siḏẖ na hohi. 
They do not fly to the heavens, nor do they become Siddhas. 

ਨਚਣੁ ਕੁਦਣੁ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥ 
Nacẖaṇ kuḏaṇ man kā cẖā▫o. 
They dance and jump around on the urgings of their minds. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮਨਿ ਭਉ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਉ ॥੨॥ 
Nānak jinĥ man bẖa▫o ṯinĥā man bẖā▫o. ||2|| 
O Nanak, those whose minds are filled with the Fear of God, have the love of God in their minds as well. ||2|| 
 

 

QUESTIONS

1)   For what reasons and what "Intentions" is the dancing referring to?  It describes a group of people that have a name.    However, are these group of people imitating another bunch of people? ...maybe a a group that does something similar with different intention and as an act of serving / praising the lord?

2) Are they serving the lord with their dancing or are they serving their own maya hunger? " (clue is "Rotī▫ā kāraṇ pūrėh ṯāl.")

3)  The shabad continues to describe how other people dance with the daily sounds of grinding stones, the potter's wheel,  oil-press..etc..  This is referring to people that are doing the work of karams as per hukam, but it's not their physical body that is dancing. They ARE dancing in harmony whilst doing Kirat. REMEMBER- DANCING is expression combined with repetition, to the tempo of repeating beat or rhythm.  I

4) Can we see that there 2 groups of people described as dancing. One's dancing in display for intentions and fulfillment of maya hunger and the other's dancing internally whilst doing bhog of daily karams....  These karams are as per hukam and help contribute to the kirat.

ਬੰਧਨ ਬੰਧਿ ਭਵਾਏ ਸੋਇ ॥ 
Banḏẖan banḏẖ bẖavā▫e so▫e. 
The Lord binds us in bondage - so do we spin around. 

ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਨਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
Pa▫i▫ai kiraṯ nacẖai sabẖ ko▫e. 
According to their actions, so do all people dance.

The above  describes how we all dance, but it's the "how" and as per "kirat"  that's important here.   Kirat karna, Vand shakna and naam japna  CAN ALL be done simultaneously in the form of dance(Yes, they can!)   The real significance of bhangra moves have a lot of meanings to them; They are about activities whilst doing  kirat (working in farms/fields) , there are  moves that mimic animals of the pastures,  the gadda(tractor),  preparing soil, sowing seeds... reaping the grain..cutting the corn....and many more  You need to think of these bhangra moves and music, minus the polluting lyrics that have infiltrated this traditional folk dance. 

The bani above says" ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਨਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ  "According to their actions, so do all people dance.  and the lines preceding gave details of the different intentions.   Those who ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਹਸਹਿ, (Nacẖ nacẖ hasėh) and will be ਚਲਹਿ ਸੇ ਰੋਇ  are the one's that danced for the physical dehi's intentions. The shabad addresses a few main points directly  that characterize different dancing, ...The "What or Who is dancing? and also the Who is one dancing to?  Is it to EGO of maya, or is it to the Truth of the Niranankar. This all depends on where you consciousness is attached and what your intentions are.

 It indirectly addresses EGO, since the shabad never mentions haumai or ahankar, but EGO is the reason of why One's body dances for intentions of maya, whereas, the other's inner soul dances in harmony whilst doing bhog of it's karams whilst doing sift salah of Satguru (HUKAM) ememeber what Naamdev told Trilochan about printing designs on the sheets whilst he was internally attached to the Lord. ...........

ਹਾਥ ਪਾਉ ਕਰਿ ਕਾਮੁ ਸਭੁ ਚੀਤੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੨੧੩॥ 
Hāth pā▫o kar kām sabẖ cẖīṯ niranjan nāl. ||213|| 
With your hands and feet, do all your work, but let your consciousness remain with the Immaculate Lord. ||213|| 

Then, why would dancing be a problem if consciousness is NOT on 5 chor, but on Niranjan.   We've been foolishly misled to associate all dancing with nowadays connections to kaam, lust and sexual innuendos. This is because of the lyrics and motives they use to market the dances and songs.

 

Sacred dancing has existed in almost every ancient civilization. The different variants and forms of worship have to be appreciated from all these cultures to understand the meanings of unison and harmony. The arti itself is a representation of the divine cosmic dance that has existed since the beginning and that will continue to do so. 

[amardeep]

I agree with Lucky, the verse does not have anything to do with Bhangra dancing

[paapiman]

On 4/3/2018 at 11:32 PM, paapiman said:

From Sri Aasaa kee Sahib jee

ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਹਸਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਸੇ ਰੋਇ ॥ (465-13)

Those who dance and dance and laugh, shall weep on their ultimate departure.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Gurbani cannot be bound by any context*, like it cannot be bound to any rules of grammar. It is a limitless ocean of treasures. This verse is part of a Shabad, which talks about raasdhariye. In that sense one can say that it is not directly talking about Bhangra or other forms of dancing, but Shabads have a universal message associated with them too.

This particular Shabad can be discussed in great details within its context, along with its esoteric/deeper meanings, but we would go off-topic if we do so.

IMHO, Bhangra/Gidha are worse than Raasan. At least one can learn something from a raas, from a spiritual standpoint. This was especially true in olden times, when lower castes did not have the right to attain religious education. Those people could see a raas on the avtaars, learn some basics of history and then maybe walk on the spiritual pathway. On the contrary, Bhangra/Gidha has minimal to none spiritual benefit and can make the mind fickle. Therefore Sikhs should definitely desist from indulging in these activities.

* - Having said the above, we need to remember that context, uthanka, grammar, etc are very valuable tools in understanding Gurbani.

Note: - Raas is play (or a skit) where actors play roles of historical figures.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਹਸਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਸੇ ਰੋਇ ॥
First they dance and laugh (celebrate) and then when it comes time to leave, they cry.

They are not crying because they are dancing but because they have not attached their consciousness to Hari.

 

 

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Gurmukh sings, gumukh dances, he attaches his consciousness to Hari.

 

A Gurmukh dances and has Hari on his mind, and so the dancing attaches his consciousness to Hari ji.


The most natural thing to do in the presence of Hari ji is to dance because the meeting with Hari is such a blissful experience.

Those who feel it deeply will find themselves dancing.

ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥
Your servant dances and sings your praises.


 

On 4/11/2018 at 8:25 AM, paapiman said:

On the contrary, Bhangra/Gidha has minimal to none spiritual benefit

Bhangra/Gidha may have minimal to none spiritual benefit especially how it is popularly done but it is much better than arguing on forums, which has negative effects on spirituality.

You can connect to Hari much faster through physical movement than through using the intellect.

Using the intellect, you are strengthening only that which impedes your capability to see the undivided, non-Dual Awareness.

To see the non-dual awareness, you must calm your intellect and enter your body and flow with the vibration.

 

By speaking and speaking nothing will come of it.

By flowing with the vibration the Lord of the Universe is discovered.

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

Bhangra/Gidha may have minimal to none spiritual benefit especially how it is popularly done but it is much better than arguing on forums, which has negative effects on spirituality.

Excessive arguments might have a negative effect on one's spirituality, but intellectual discussions/Gurmat Veechars (which often take place on this forum) are a 1000 times better than Bhangra/Gidha.

 

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

You can connect to Hari much faster through physical movement than through using the intellect.

That is why we have Shastar Vidya, Gatka, Physical seva (in Gurudwaras), Yoga, etc, within Sikhism. Again, they are a 1000 times better than Bhangra/Gidha.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

2 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Excessive arguments might have a negative effect on one's spirituality, but intellectual discussions/Gurmat Veechars (which often take place on this forum) are a 1000 times better than Bhangra/Gidha.

That is why we have Shastar Vidya, Gatka, Physical seva (in Gurudwaras), Yoga, etc within Sikhism. Again, they are a 1000 times better than Bhangra/Gidha.

I respect your opinion and preference however you are using gurbani to prove something that it is not saying.

Excessive discussion whether about Gurmati or otherwise is not good for you. Guru Granth Sahib ji makes this clear.

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥
Your servant dances and sings your praises.

ਨਿਰਤਿ - This word has multiple meanings. Two of which are endless love and decision making process

Therefore, a more appropriate translation of the verse would be

ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥

Your Servant has endless love for you and sings your praises

Or

Your servant involves himself in decision making process (indictating Gurmat veechar) and sings your prasies

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

They are not crying because they are dancing but because they have not attached their consciousness to Hari.

So, if a Sikh drinks alcohol to calm his nerves and then attaches (or tries to attach) his consciousness via meditation to Waheguru jee, will that be acceptable to Sri Satguru jee?

You are not looking at that verse from a broad perspective and thereby limiting its scope. Definitively attaching consciousness to Waheguru jee is a part of that shabad, but that does not mean that it is not condemning dancing along with it.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

7 minutes ago, paapiman said:

ਨਿਰਤਿ - This word has multiple meanings. Two of which are endless love and decision making process

Therefore, a more appropriate translation of the verse would be

ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥

Your Servant has endless love for you and sings your praises

Or

Your servant involves himself in decision making process (indictating Gurmat veechar) and sings your prasies

ਨਿਰਤਿ has multiple meanings but ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ only has one meaning and that is to dance.

There is a difference between Nirt  and Nritye. Nirt is not something you do, but something you have. Nritye (dance) is something you do.

Here it is ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ - Nritye kare - meaning your servant dances and ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ sings your praise.

If it was ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ - then it would mean - your servant sings your praises with love.

So you must keep in mind Gurmukhi grammar when translating.

 

[BhagatSingh]

6 minutes ago, paapiman said:

So, if a Sikh drinks alcohol to calm his nerves and then attaches (or tries to attach) his consciousness via meditation to Waheguru jee, will that be acceptable to Sri Satguru jee?

Alcohol doesn't calm your nerves. It inhibits your consciousness.

So it would have the opposite effect for a sikh who is trying to raise his consciousness.

That said, alcohol in small doses can  be medicinal for someone who has raised their awareness beyond control.

8 minutes ago, paapiman said:

You are not looking at that verse from a broad perspective

I am looking at it from a much broader perspective than what you are giving credit for.

Because I am essentially saying that there are many ways of getting closer to God and dancing is one of them.

It would be a narrower perspective to say that spiritual practices other than my own (naam simaran) cannot bring you closer to Waheguru ji.

That is what you are saying.

So its not me who needs to broaden my scope. It is you who needs to see that there are many approaches to realization of God.

[paapiman]

30 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

So you must keep in mind Gurmukhi grammar when translating.

Daas has mentioned this before on the forum. Gurbani cannot be bound by any rules of Grammar. 

 

37 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

There is a difference between Nirt  and Nritye. Nirt is not something you do, but something you have. Nritye (dance) is something you do.

Please see Mahan Kosh (the seventh meaning).

https://www.searchgurbani.com/mahan-kosh/view

 

2 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥
Your servant dances and sings your praises.

Please listen to the katha of this verse by Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale. Baba jee also clearly mentions that Nachna Thapna is prohibited in Sikhism.

Please start listening at 10:30 min:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Gurbachan_Singh_(Bhindran_wale)/Guru_Granth_Sahib_Larivaar_Katha/Volume_05_Ang_0347-0462/033--Sant.Gurbachan.Singh.(Bhindran.wale)--Raag.Aasaa--Ang-381.mp3

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

38 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

It is you who needs to see that there are many approaches to realization of God.

Agreed that there are other approaches to realizing God, but this is a Sikh forum and our focus should be to propagate Sikh approaches towards the divine.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

41 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Alcohol doesn't calm your nerves. It inhibits your consciousness.

It depends on the quantity. Small quantity of alcohol can help a person to calm down. Even, some Jogis in the olden times consumed it to assist them in their meditation process.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[das]

paapiman: Why don't you register some thing like: www.AnythingOrEverythingVsSikhism.com where you can just compare any/all things with box-wali-Sikhi??

From my personal experiences, it seems like the real Sikh religion is already lost. What we've now is the corpse and even we (so-called care-takers) are actually eating it. I always wonder what Guru Nanak would write about today's so-called Sikhs if HE chooses to come again and preach. I'm pretty sure that today's Sikhs will stone Guru Nanak about saying anything against their pre-conceived MIS-understandings.

But if you think about it: This is nothing new, every religion/stream/group starts from Real and then eventually with the power of Maya; it reduces to mere concepts which people use to debate but no-one is willing to dive into the deepths. That's how matrix works.

Someone really explained Why Religion is both good and evil...

Religion is the Wal-Mart of spirituality. Wal-Mart helps get global goods into pretty much every town, it’s easily accessible to all. People can buy goods with little effort. They can have a job whereas previously there were few jobs in town. But at the same time, Wal-Mart is a parasite that kills other small businesses, exploits its workers, and leads to the problem of slave workers overseas. Low Prices here comes with high price to living conditions elsewhere.

Same with religion. It has convenient books anyone can read, convenient answers, buildings you can go to, people who preach to you as you just get to sit and listen. It helps bring the potential for spirituality to MANY more people who otherwise would be too lazy or isolated (in terms of location or access to literature) to hear of it. Therefore it’s a mass solution that, ultimately, aims for quantity over quality. But the price is that other smaller, perhaps more spiritual streams of knowledge, can become denied to these followers.
For instance, someone becomes Christian… they get indoctrinated with the Bible, then are told Gnostics are agents of the devil. There, the entire stream of Gnostic spirituality has just been denied them. Thus they are like people who could once only crawl on their belly until religion handed them a crutch, then they were able to hobble around, but the crutch made them dependent so that they could never walk or run. It’s a help in the short term, that hurts in the long term.

[Soulfinder]

 

[paapiman]

3 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

It would be a narrower perspective to say that spiritual practices other than my own (naam simaran) cannot bring you closer to Waheguru ji.

That is what you are saying.

Daas never said that. There are many practices which might be prohibited in Sikhism, but can bring a person closer to Waheguru jee. For example, controlled use of intoxicants, tantric sexual practices, extreme austerities, etc. If people (especially non-Sikhs or Nigure) want to try them to move ahead in spirituality, they can do so. Personally, I have no problem with that. 

Let's just stay on the topic, which Bhangra/Gidha Vs Sikhism.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

4 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Here it is ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ - Nritye kare - meaning your servant dances and ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ sings your praise.

If it was ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ - then it would mean - your servant sings your praises with love.

So you must keep in mind Gurmukhi grammar when translating.

 

Please see below for the arth done by Prof.Sahib Singh jee, who has used grammar for doing arths.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

8 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

 Arth of the above verse by Prof.Sahib Singh jee 

 

Arth by Sant Gyani Kirpal Singh jee (Amir Bhandar Teeka)

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

@paapiman

Gyani Kirpal Singh ji is onto something.

To Dance is to Merge into Satye/Truth.

That's fundamentally what a Good dance will do to you, is merge you into God.

The Dervishes dance in order to accomplish exactly this.

You could do the same with Bhangra also.

On 4/13/2018 at 5:49 PM, paapiman said:

Daas never said that. There are many practices which might be prohibited in Sikhism, but can bring a person closer to Waheguru jee. For example, controlled use of intoxicants, tantric sexual practices, extreme austerities, etc. If people (especially non-Sikhs or Nigure) want to try them to move ahead in spirituality, they can do so. Personally, I have no problem with that. 

You believe that Bhangra and Dance, in general, is prohibited in Guru Granth Sahib, and I assume Bhangra and Dance is not part of your Spiritual Practice.

So that's why I say that this is a - narrower perspective to say that spiritual practices other than my own (naam simaran) cannot bring you closer to Waheguru ji.

 

My perspective is that Bhangra and Dance, can bring your close to Waheguru ji if done with Waheguru in the mind.

And

Those who find Waheguru ji naturally Dance due to the energy that radiates forth from within them.

 

As for practices that are prohibited in Guru Granth Sahib -

I mean there are certain practices like that.

- Guru Granth Sahib discourages killing animals.

But we know Guru Hari Gobind ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji hunted animals.

 

- Guru Granth Sahib also discourages murti pooja.

But we know Bhagat Dhanna ji found success in murti pooja, as well as Bhagat Sadhna ji and Bhagat Ramanand ji.

And we know Bhagat Sadhna ji was a butcher. So he is doing two things that one would say are discouraged in Guru Granth Sahib.

 

So how do we reconcile this?

I reconcile it like so -

Ultimately no practice is prohibited in Guru Granth Sahib, if it does not violate the 3 Pillars.

The 3 Pillars are Naam Japna, Vand Chhakna and Sachi Kirt, that is, Chanting of God's name, Sharing and Truthful actions.

Those are three 3 pillars and if your practice works in Harmony with the 3 Pillars then it is approved and not prohibited.

So killing animals and murti pooja while it's not recommended in Guru Granth Sahib, can work in Harmony with 3 Pillars, and so they are Ultimately not prohibited.

 

How can killing animals and murti pooja work in harmony with the 3 Pillars?

Killing Animals -  Guru Hari Gobind ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji knew that in order to build an army to fight Tyrannical rulers such as Jahangir and Aurangzeb, they will need to practice their archery and group coordination in group-based hunts.

Bhagat Sadhna ji's livelihood came from butchering animals and his enlightenment came after the fact. So even though he was butchering animals, it became Sachi Kirt.

So in this way killing animals became Truthful and Righteous Action, even though in other circumstances, it is Adharmic, unrighteous action.

Murti Pooja - Bhagat Dhanna ji's devotion to the Shaligram lead him to discover God. Bhagat Ramanand ji worshipped an idol of God regularly as part of his Spiritual Practice, and in this manner, he trained his Visual Senses to be attuned to God at all times.

So in this way, they remembered the Lord through worshipping a murti.

 

 

But then you might say that - "like Hunting and Murti pooja, Dancing is discouraged as well".

I would say Dancing is not something that is discouraged in Guru Granth Sahib.

The verses you put forth so far do not discourage it at all.

 

What is Definitely Prohibited by Guru Granth Sahib?

The 3 Pillars are Naam Japna, Vand Chhakna and Sachi Kirt, that is, Chanting of God's name, Sharing and Truthful actions.

So what practices are definitely prohibited?

Lying is definitely Prohibited because it goes against the Pillar of performing Truthful actions. Lying is not truthful.

Someone could be Wrong about something e.g. they say Earth is flat, but if they are speaking from what they know to be the Truth then they are not lying and thus not violating the 3 Pillars.

 

What other practices are Definitely Prohibited?

The Hoarding of Wealth as well as the Hoarding of Wisdom - both when done without sharing.

Making lots of money and creating lots of businesses but not giving away some of the profits, that is Prohibited.

Going into Samadhi somewhere isolated and never sharing your Nirvana with the community and never having any intention to, that is Prohibited.

 

What other practices are Definitely Prohibited?

Living a life style that is Devoid of Naam Simaran.

If you never sit down and focus your attention on Waheguru ji, that is prohibited.

If you are lazy and do not remember the Lord every day, that is Prohibited.

[Soulfinder]

Here is a couple of katha veechar videos audios i found on bhangra, parties,dancing and bollywood by Akj and Gyani Thakur Singh

Listen at @ 55 seconds