paapiman Posted April 2, 2016 Report Share Posted April 2, 2016 Please listen to Gyani Kulwant Singh jee, explaining the definition of a Chamar. Please start listening after 14:40 min: http://www.gianikulwantsingh.com/audio/BaarahMaahaaTukhaari_ChantMahla-1/18%20-%20%20Thukaree%20Raag%20Baraa%20Maha%20Katha%20-%20Giani%20Kulwant%20Singh%20Ji%20%28Ludhiana%20Vaalay%29.mp3 Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koi Posted April 2, 2016 Report Share Posted April 2, 2016 Go to 50.55 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2016 Whoever is a slave to the Charam Darishtee, is a Chamar. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2016 Report Share Posted April 3, 2016 and what caste are you? you said on other thread jatts are shudra. infact they are vaishyas. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koi Posted April 3, 2016 Report Share Posted April 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, Guest guest said: and what caste are you? you said on other thread jatts are shudra. infact they are vaishyas. If caste is your job...then my caste is: SQL Developer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GurpreetKaur Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Guest guest said: and what caste are you? you said on other thread jatts are shudra. infact they are vaishyas. I thought vaishyas are like women who sell their body?. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Why can't people just look at the soul instead of all these petty things like caste colour gender even financial or political status etc? Even on here why can't we all recognize that we are all in fact the same!? All humans should be treated the same regardless of any of the above. Anyway if caste is job then what is military?? Lol oh wait right I'm female therefore in caste system I'd be lower than an untouchable male. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 10 hours ago, GurpreetKaur said: I thought vaishyas are like women who sell their body?. There are two words. ਵੈਸ਼ is a caste, while ਵੇਸ਼੍ਯਾ (Hindi word) is a prostitute. In Punjabi, the word for prostitute is ਬੇਸਵਾ. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 12 hours ago, Guest guest said: and what caste are you? you said on other thread jatts are shudra. infact they are vaishyas. Guest jee - Some people say that they are Vaish, while some claim they are Shudars. Daas is a Shudar. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 19 hours ago, GurpreetKaur said: I thought vaishyas are like women who sell their body?. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishya 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 well if people themselves come here and make comments about different religions, castes, genders etc then they should also identify what religion, caste, gender etc they are. it will often put their views in context. paapiman, shudra isn't itself a caste? and i didn't ask what some people do. if you don't want to say what caste you are fine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 7 hours ago, Guest guest said: well if people themselves come here and make comments about different religions, castes, genders etc then they should also identify what religion, caste, gender etc they are. it will often put their views in context. paapiman, shudra isn't itself a caste? and i didn't ask what some people do. if you don't want to say what caste you are fine. Exactly the guys on here only see things from their perspective and so they don't see why we feel slighted as women. Seeing the context from our side might help understand how we feel... How it feels to be told no because of your gender. Same with caste though I think discrimination based on caste is not as prevalent in Sikhi as discrimination based on gender. And everyone thinks gender discrimination is ok because hey it only hurts women. But I have seen casteism too like gurdwaras for only ramgarhia etc. I have heard of some gurdwaras not allowing low caste in either. This is all nonsense. No human should have any less than any other human in Sikhi. If they are Sikh they should all have same rights... Yes equality. Yes no matter what caste no matter what gender no matter what skin colour etc. All humans treated equally. All Sikhs given same rights. That would be a beautiful world. If you don't think so then you yourself harbour some superiority complex. Gurbani is clear: As Gurmukh look upon all with a single eye of equality for in each and every heart the divine light is contained. Paapiman thinks the above is only instruction for a Brahamgiani... Lol. There are only two types. Gurmukh and Manmukh. You can choose which you want to be and act accordingly. Saying that Gurbani is only for Brahamgianis as an excuse to not have to follow it is a lame excuse. As part of defence visible minority group and human rights training I learned about unconscious bias and even knowing about it I still catch myself. I have unconscious biases about people like if I see teenagers late at night in a hoodie I will think they are up to no good etc. Or I still feel awkward around Muslims who are visibly Muslim like men wearing the long Kurta etc. because it's out of place here in North America. But at least I TRY to see that divine light in ALL. I'll notice my bias and instead of walking away in fear I'll actually say hello and engage them in conversation. This is he difference. Paapiman (sorry no offence meant) thinks only a Brahamgiani can seek to see the divine light in all and this is reason for not seeing God in women. (could just as easily be lower caste etc) He often compares women to insects etc when he mentions seeing divine light in women ---- as if to say that he'd squash a bug rather than see the divine light in that bug and since he uses that comparison when referring to women, he feels the same towards women ...that he just can't see the same divine light in us that he sees in men. Fair enough... (He actually said this so no I am not doing nindya) it's just an example. But I think this is an excuse (not just for him but for anyone who CHOOSES to not see that light in everyone). I am not a Brahamgiani but I am trying to actively see the divine light in ALL. It's a choice you make. It's not something you need to be a Brahamgiani for! Some of you think I hate men. But I treat men same as I do women. Maybe that's why you think I hate men because maybe men deserve higher respect than women in your mind, and me not acknowledging or giving men higher respect than women means I hate men? But I try to follow what Gurbani says. I try to see (and serve) that divine light in everyone equally. I will never see male bodies as being any more deserving of anything than a female body. I will never see a low caste any different than a high caste... In fact that is easy for me being in the west since I have no concept of a rigid social structure based hierarchy. And that's all I can do in this life... treat everyone equally. I refuse to see any human as lower than another. Yes even criminals I feel sorry for. I don't believe evil is inherent. I believe that souls can be lost and I'd actually like to work with rehabilitating criminal teens etc. in future. Of course I am not advocating letting them go free (everyone should be held accountable for their own actions) but that is different from limiting someone based on something they had no control over (what body they were born into... Caste, creed, colour, gender) In Sikhi every human deserves equal treatment and rights no matter what. All souls are equal. If someone is Amritdhari it should not matter what gender or caste or colour etc they are. They are all ONE in Khalsa. If you don't think so, then you are just a horrible person. Sorry but you are. There is no shudra in Sikhi... And if Paapiman is Sikh he does not have a caste so he can't tell you which he is because he does not have one. Easiest thing you can follow when interacting with ANYONE (no matter what colour their skin, caste, gender, etc) treat them how you would want them to treat you. If you want to place limitations on people, then ask yourself if you would want those same limitations placed on yourself. If not, then think twice about supporting that limitation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 On 4/4/2016 at 8:03 AM, CdnSikhGirl said: Why can't people just look at the soul instead of all these petty things like caste colour gender even financial or political status etc? Even on here why can't we all recognize that we are all in fact the same!? All humans should be treated the same regardless of any of the above. Anyway if caste is job then what is military?? Lol oh wait right I'm female therefore in caste system I'd be lower than an untouchable male. Because in real world all these things exists and every person know what his/her status is, the minute that person start speaking above that then the society just bash him /her for that. Take the example of Nikki Haley , she abandoned Sikhism and embraced christianity , yet sikh sites publish her articles , not only that there are many apologetic supporters of her .while any other sikh man or woman who cut his hair or abandon Sikhism is always abused by the other sikhs, why this discrimination ? because Nikki Haley has acheived the status which is distant for any Sikh man or woman , so lets forget whether she is Sikh or not , just boot lick her On the other hand how dare an average sikh man or woman leave religion ? he must be punished for that And BTW the military is Kshatriya 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 2 hours ago, kdsingh80 said: And BTW the military is Kshatriya I guess I'd be kshatriya then, not that it matters.... Anyway all I was saying is that ALL humans should be treated equally. I am not sure who Nikki Haley is. But I'd look at her the same as any other fallen Sikh who cut their hairs. And that is with empathy. I don't believe in shunning etc. Their journey is theirs. Its THEM who loses out by falling off the path, not me. So why should I take it on myself to punish anyone else? Why do Sikhs look to punish and name call and treat people like crap? In fact Gurbani says the only true judge is he who judges himself. (or herself). In fact if everyone only focused on their OWN spirituality and stopped trying to dictate to others how to live theirs, then we'd have MUCH better progress IMO. Yes that includes seeing that divine light in everyone and realizing that when someone does seva, it's not a body. It's not a gender, or a caste, or a skin colour. It's that DIVINE LIGHT within them which is doing it. And realizing its the SAME divine light in every one of us, then nobody would stop anyone from doing seva, or from occupying any post. Nobody would tell anyone else how to do their spirituality. Nobody would call anyone nindak, etc. Because its the same divine light in them as it is that person. :( I would give almost anything to see that world! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 On 4/3/2016 at 6:20 PM, Guest guest said: you said on other thread jatts are shudra. infact they are vaishyas. Guest jee: Please have a look at the thread below. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 3 hours ago, CdnSikhGirl said: I guess I'd be kshatriya then, not that it matters.... Anyway all I was saying is that ALL humans should be treated equally. I am not sure who Nikki Haley is. But I'd look at her the same as any other fallen Sikh who cut their hairs. And that is with empathy. I don't believe in shunning etc. Their journey is theirs. Its THEM who loses out by falling off the path, not me. So why should I take it on myself to punish anyone else? Why do Sikhs look to punish and name call and treat people like crap? In fact Gurbani says the only true judge is he who judges himself. (or herself). In fact if everyone only focused on their OWN spirituality and stopped trying to dictate to others how to live theirs, then we'd have MUCH better progress IMO. Yes that includes seeing that divine light in everyone and realizing that when someone does seva, it's not a body. It's not a gender, or a caste, or a skin colour. It's that DIVINE LIGHT within them which is doing it. And realizing its the SAME divine light in every one of us, then nobody would stop anyone from doing seva, or from occupying any post. Nobody would tell anyone else how to do their spirituality. Nobody would call anyone nindak, etc. Because its the same divine light in them as it is that person. :( I would give almost anything to see that world! Nikki Haley is Governer of South Carolina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Haley She has embraced christianity yet sikh sites still publish articles about her and lot of sikhs are still her fans because she was born in Sikh family and please don't tell me this is the way Sikhs treat ordinary ex sikhs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, kdsingh80 said: Nikki Haley is Governer of South Carolina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Haley She has embraced christianity yet sikh sites still publish articles about her and lot of sikhs are still her fans because she was born in Sikh family and please don't tell me this is the way Sikhs treat ordinary ex sikhs Mate, that is only American Sikhs probably. Many of those lot seem pretty messed up in the head and desperate for any acceptance by mainstream America (presumably because they feel insecure over the many race attacks there?). Outside of the US, no one is lauding Nikki (white girl wannabe) that I know of? Do you know of anyone doing this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 8 minutes ago, kdsingh80 said: Nikki Haley is Governer of South Carolina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Haley She has embraced christianity yet sikh sites still publish articles about her and lot of sikhs are still her fans because she was born in Sikh family and please don't tell me this is the way Sikhs treat ordinary ex sikhs A Sikh should not treat anyone badly, ever. Ordinary ex-Sikhs, it was their choice. They are only hurting their own spiritual journey, not yours. So why treat them badly? Why badmouth and call people nindak etc? It only shows hatred. If an ex-Sikh (I don't care what background they are) were in need, I would help any of them. Why would I think badly of them? It was their choice and they did what they felt they needed to do for THEIR journey. It doesn't make them less human, and it doesn't make them any less a carrier of the divine light. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said: Mate, that is only American Sikhs probably. Many of those lot seem pretty messed up in the head and desperate for any acceptance by mainstream America (presumably because they feel insecure over the many race attacks there?). Outside of the US, no one is lauding Nikki (white girl wannabe) that I know of? Do you know of anyone doing this? Her political stature is not so large outside USA that people know her , but I was talking about sikh society in general .The other example is Bhagat Singh who despite being Atheist communist is accepted by sikhs as their own great freedom fighter.Sikhs are generally harsh on people who renounce their religion but the who do some big or great acheivement then despite renouncing our people accept those as their own 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, kdsingh80 said: .The other example is Bhagat Singh who despite being Atheist communist is accepted by sikhs as their own great freedom fighter. Bro, Bhagat Singh jee accepted Sikhi, before he was martyred. It was Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh jee, who changed his mind in prison. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 32 minutes ago, paapiman said: Bro, Bhagat Singh jee accepted Sikhi, before he was martyred. It was Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh jee, who changed his mind in prison. Bhul chuk maaf That is just a story there is no evidence of that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 1 hour ago, CdnSikhGirl said: A Sikh should not treat anyone badly, ever. Ordinary ex-Sikhs, it was their choice. They are only hurting their own spiritual journey, not yours. So why treat them badly? Why badmouth and call people nindak etc? It only shows hatred. If an ex-Sikh (I don't care what background they are) were in need, I would help any of them. Why would I think badly of them? It was their choice and they did what they felt they needed to do for THEIR journey. It doesn't make them less human, and it doesn't make them any less a carrier of the divine light. But sikh society is quite harsh on people who leave their religion or even cut their hair, this is fact which we cannot deny, so people do have different set of rules for high achievers and ordinary, this is reality of life 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 48 minutes ago, kdsingh80 said: Her political stature is not so large outside USA that people know her , but I was talking about sikh society in general .The other example is Bhagat Singh who despite being Atheist communist is accepted by sikhs as their own great freedom fighter.Sikhs are generally harsh on people who renounce their religion but the who do some big or great acheivement then despite renouncing our people accept those as their own Trying to enhance one's own reputation through another's achievements is very common in our society. I get what you are saying, but not everyone does this - I've read a few pieces by American Sikhs who've outright condemned Nikki as a coconut, sellout who'd pretend loyalty to anyone just to enhance her career. Also, I don't have any problem with Bhagat Singh being an atheist (as per his own families account), it's just a certain section of society struggles with this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 14 minutes ago, kdsingh80 said: That is just a story there is no evidence of that The evidence is present in the autobiography of Bhai Sahib. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 Just now, paapiman said: The evidence is present in the autobiography of Bhai Sahib. Bhul chuk maaf http://www.tapoban.org/webforum/read.php?1,3652 Read the above there are contradictions in that https://www.marxists.org/archive/bhagat-singh/1930/10/05.htm And the above is letter from Bhagat singh , he clearly call himself Atheist , 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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