5 Elements, Realization and being Selfless.

[Lucky]

5 Elements, Realization and being Selfless.

Below is some explaining and understanding about what realization actually means and why the concern with 5 elements. Important to understand what 5 elements represent and what is not made from these 5 tat. I've not used any other references except for Gurbani quotes, so all errors are mine and I stand corrected.

 

 Everything made of the 5 tat is in constant change, moment to moment, in a continual flux of motion. This is what contributes to kaal and time. This is also what our mind perceives as the 'Reality'. The surroundings and the 5 tat maya,that existence is enveloped in, is perceived as the “Reality”

Q: But if the 5 tat maya is the reality, then what is realization?
A: Funny, because "realization" is actually realizing, that the reality perceived by our mind is Not the reality, and Not the truth.
 

Realization = Realizing that reality, as we know it, is NOT actually real

-Why?
Because the Truth is aad jugaad,hai bhi, hosi,,,,, He always was, always is and will always remain "as is" Truth does not change. He is not in constant variation or shift. He stays as he always was and always will be

Kabir ji says..

ਨਾ ਓਹੁ ਬਢੈ ਨ ਘਟਤਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
Nā oh badẖai na gẖatṯā jā▫e.

God does not increase or decrease.
 

ਅਕੁਲ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਏਕੈ ਭਾਇ ॥੩॥
Akul niranjan ekai bẖā▫e. ||3||
He is unknowable and immaculate; He does not change. ||3||

 

Q:Why does the MInd perceive the reality as the changing maya that is made of 5 tat?
A:Because the Mind itself is made of 5 tat (non-spiritualists won't get what man tu jyot saroop hai really means)

Gurbani confirms what I'm saying-

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਤੇ ਜਨਮਾ ॥
Ih man pancẖ ṯaṯ ṯe janmā.
This mind is born of the five elements.

 

The unchanging "truth" our almighty lord Waheguru, is NOT made of 5 elements. Gurbani also tells us-

ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਬਿਨਾਸ ॥੨॥
Rūp na rekẖ na pancẖ ṯaṯ ṯẖākur abinās. ||2||
He has no form or outline, and He is not made of the five elements; our Lord and Master is imperishable. ||2||

Beloved Kabirji confirms. The mind is in constant change and living off the 5 elements in maya-

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜੀਉ ॥
Ih man pancẖ ṯaṯ ko jī▫o.
This mind is the life of the five elements

We are changing and everything in the universe, under the influence of 5 tats, is also changing. But behind all of this somewhere is the unchanging "ultimate reality".... the True one, the all knower and the doer.

Q; How do we find this True one that knows all?
By lifting this veil of 5 tats that makes the mind and everything that it perceives.
This is where we have to try and "stop" or "still" the changing mind. To still is to move to this nothingness where there is no "I" (remember the "I'' is always changing) ...the "I" is the ego.

To become SELFLESS through realizing the absence of real ego, is the practice of all paths.
Find the UNCHANGING reality, the True Reality, the True Jyot. Here there is no "I" that exists, there is no ego....this is what is called being selfless.

Kabir ji says-

ਜਹ ਕਛੁ ਅਹਾ ਤਹਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਤਹ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
Jah kacẖẖ ahā ṯahā kicẖẖ nāhī pancẖ ṯaṯ ṯah nāhī.
Where something existed, now there is nothing. The five elements are no longer there.


Every path or faith tells us to forget about Ego in order to "become more spiritual" or more 'Sikh" However, ordinary followers ignore this injunction because the task seems way too difficult. As a result, these followers identify with their physical bodies or with their thoughts or experiences and mistakenly take this "other" as their true self.

The 2nd reason that followers can't become selfless is because they do not know how to detach from the seductive pull of 5 tat maya.

Gurbani tells us to detach and disassociate from maya, which actually stems from detaching away from the 5 tats that are not only in what we perceive around us, but also in what makes up our "running in 10 directions" mind. They don't understand the process of purifying, the japna to get away from the "forever changing" 5 tat maya àto the non-changing stillness and truth.

They become at loss when it comes to the task of spiritual cultivation. I say "cultivation" because Gurbani pangtees about sowing and reaping seeds, are not all about karams, (wont cross-reference here now to go off current discussion.) they are also about the spiritual practice efforts you make and the gurprasad grace that will follow. Gurprasad and grace doesn't come from 'above to à down'  if you've no efforts of going from 'down to àabove'

Don’t fool yourself thinking that gurprasad grace can just come down from above if you sit cross-legged and hath-johr(hands folded), without making an ounce of effort to raise your awareness and consciousness!


This brings me to another area of different discussion that also stems from the same 5 tat-changing-selves,...and that is "mukhti" or liberation.  Real Mukhti is to be FREE from the 5 tat existence of change. Free from the changing and repeating cycles of birth and death. Liberated from the changing 5 element maya.

 

The 5 elements have to be mastered before you can be free of them. You can do them in any order but out of Air, Water, Wind, Earth and Ether(space/akash), .Earth is the most difficult because our hair, fingernails, bones and earth kapra of physical body is the most dense. The least dense and the most flexible is the Air. The air corresponds to the prana in terms of it’s movement and Gurmat advises that we start here.

Japo Saas saas simro gobind,
saas saas to master that first element/tat of Air because it is the least dense and easiest one to master and separate from.
 

Air is also what came first before material creation from Primal void of Sunn, Gurbani says…

 

ਪਉਣੁ  ਪਾਣੀ  ਸੁੰਨੈ  ਤੇ  ਸਾਜੇ  ॥

Pa▫uṇ pāṇī sunnai ṯe sāje.

From this Primal Void, He fashioned air and water.

Thus, it is very possible to do the reversible and enter Sunn Samadhi by mastering and separating from the Air. This is a key approach we use in simran to go into sunn from that cross-legged, hath-johr position.

 

Air is the Guru of maya, since "pavan guru, pane pitaa, mata dharth.mahaat” and Air

 

[BhagatSingh]

I dunno if air can be mastered first. But I know it is very easy to tap into air, connect with it, and have it respond to your connection.

In this video, Michael is demonstrating his connection with the air around him.

 

[Ragmaala]

@Lucky  Thanks for an  excellent  article. 

Veer ji , Can you expand or talk about practical methods of purifying the mind when you get a chance ?

[Lucky]

The 5 tats thought was actually inspired by our very own Bhagat ji.  He mentioned something along the lines of our complete existence being in continuous motion and changing moment to moment. This got me thinking and soon enough the whole 5 tats and maya began to make more sense! 

It made me realise that being truly "selfless" is extremely difficult and being mukht, is to be free from all associations of 5 elements.

 

[Lucky]

11 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

I dunno if air can be mastered first. But I know it is very easy to tap into air, connect with it, and have it respond to your connection.

 

Air is the least dense and the easiest out of the 5 to initially master and then separate from. "master" is probably a  slightly incorrect term, but it's more of being fully immersed in it, learn it, move with it, become it.. and then let go.  We have a choice to listen to our involuntary breathing 24/7 if we try. Better still, if we can get accustomed to the technique of saas saas doing "wahe"-"guru" or "har"-"har" with every inhalation and exhalation, then we can be doing 24/7 simran.

Most meditation paths and schools guide you towards entering the Samadhi void by connecting all awareness into breath, and then disconnecting in an instant. Disconnect in an instant, so that your awareness isn't able to latch to any other element, but jumps straight into Sunn Samadhi. It's a case of directing all divided attention and awareness from the other elements into One single element, and when it is all contained in the one and there is ...complete control over it, ..you just "let go". ...and then bam! in an instant, you will be in sunn void. In sunn, there is no 5 elements, therefore no maya, No maya means no trai(3) gunnas, and so you are in the 4th, chautha padh.

 

 

[BhagatSingh]

12 hours ago, Lucky said:

then separate from. "master" is probably a  slightly incorrect term

Ah ok I see what you mean. Perhaps attune might be a good word for this.

12 hours ago, Lucky said:

but it's more of being fully immersed in it, learn it, move with it, become it.. and then let go.

How would this idea work with the other 4 elements?

How do we attune ourselves to those elements in the body?

12 hours ago, Lucky said:

Most meditation paths and schools guide you towards entering the Samadhi void by connecting all awareness into breath, and then disconnecting in an instant. Disconnect in an instant, so that your awareness isn't able to latch to any other element, but jumps straight into Sunn Samadhi.

How far along are you on this path?

What are your goals? What are you aiming towards?

[das]

First and foremost, Lucky, you've touched a very good topic. It's excellent!

But there are couple of things that are off. Some of them are as follows:

• Tagging the more subtle element (i.e Air) as easy to learn/master/contemplate as compared to more dense elements (Earth, Water, and Fire) is not correct. I don't think one can master the "Air" element more-easily in relation to its grossest form (i.e Earth). But yes, we might find it easier To-Work-With-IF-We-Agree-To-Work-With-More-Subtle-Form i.e breathing. I guess this is what you've meant in the face of non-availability of proper words, as you've mentioned that mastery is not the correct word.

• It's not that easy to enter the Sunya-samad/Void; the ecstasy that you're referring to as Sunya-Samad is actually like enjoying the sounds of various elements and taking it as Anhad-Naad. I meant, what you mentioned as Sunya is not what real Sunya is.

• Lastly, Turya (4th Stage/Phase/Mode) does NOT come when one is in Sunya (even getting to Sunya is hard). May be you're referring to sub-Turya phases which does provide the glimpse and only some taste but NOT the real one.

 

From the below mentioned details, it will be quite clear that Sunya/Void is NOT beyond the Mind and Maya. Also, getting into Sunya is NOT equivalent to Turya (4th phase/mode).
 

TURYA (4th state/ phase/mode): Whenever Gurbani talks about the Turya phase, IT is talking about the main Turya phase and NOT the sub-phases of Turya under the other 3 modes. It is because Turya does not exist as separate mode, it continually co-exist in other modes. The details are as follows:

4 States are: Jagrat/Wakefulness, Svapna/Dreaming, Susupti/DeepSleep, Turya/4th-State. Between the three states of the individual subjective body, waking, dreaming, and deep sleep, there is a gap. This gap is a junction between the waking state and the dreaming state. There is also a junction between the dreaming state and dreamless sound sleep and there is a junction between sound sleep and the waking state.  But within all these 4 states, there are sub-divisions as follows and I'm sure that there might be further sub-divisions; after all it is a world of Illusion; not that easy to break ALL the veils.

1. Jagrat: Wakefulness is the state wherein one is full of awareness from his own point of view, from the point of view of individual consciousness, not from the point of view of subjective consciousness. APATA shakti (Inferior energy) is present.

   1. Jagrat-Jagrat (Wakefulness in the world of Wakefulness): This is the state of complete objectivity. People who exist here are totally given to the objective world. They are never conscious of their self. They are absolutely unaware.

   2. Jagrat-Svapna (Dreaming in the state of Wakefulness): When subjective consciousness enters into objective consciousness and then loses awareness of that objectivity and lives only in the impressions of objectivity while in wakefulness. In other words, it is Day-dreaming. e.g when, in the objective world, we look at a particular person and we are not aware of looking at that person, then we are traveling in your own impressions.

   3. Jagrat-Susupti (Deep Sleep in the state of Wakefulness): When in the state of wakefulness that individual subjective body, both externally and internally, loses consciousness of the objective world and also loses consciousness of the world of impressions. i.e Externally, he is not experiencing the objective world and internally, he is not experiencing the world of impressions.

   4. Jagrat-Turya (4th State but in Jagrat): The individual subjective body, after losing consciousness of both external and internal objectivity, enters into some consciousness of Self, of Being. He is partly illuminated by that awareness of Self and becomes quite aware internally of the consciousness of Self. He moves and travels in the objective world, and at the same time, he resides in Self-Consciousness. He does not lose hold of his internal subjective consciousness.
       

2. Svapne: Svapna is the state found in dreaming, in impressions, in memory, in madness, and in intoxication. APATA shakti (Inferior energy) is present.

   1. Svapne-Jagrat (Wakefulness in the state of Dreaming): When the subjective body travels in impressions and is given to those impressions in the field of objectivity and, at the same time, loses consciousness of those impressions. Here, this individual sometimes travels in the waves of impressions and sometimes travels in the waves of objectivity. e.g if in a dream you see a pencil and then, when you look again, you see a knife in place of the pencil, you are not conscious of this change. You do not ask the question, “Why is there now a knife where there once was a pencil?” Everything in this state, normal or abnormal, seems normal and ordinary to you. It is objective because you are given to objectivity and are lost in the object, which in this example is the pencil. The question, “How is this so?” does not arise in your mind.

   2. Svapne-Svapne (Dreaming in the state of Dreaming): The individual subjective body travels only in the world of impressions. Without the least awareness of their connection of one to the other. You see a pencil, then you see a book, then you fly in the air, then you are driving a automobile, and yet you are not aware of any of this. You feel that everything is perfectly okay.

   3. Svapne-Susupti (Deep sleep in the state of Dreaming): Sometimes in the dreaming state, this subjective body, while traveling in the world of impressions and thoughts, also develops some awareness of subjectivity. If, for example, you were to see a pencil in a dream and then in the next moment you were to see a knife in place of the pencil, you would wonder why the pencil has become a knife. You realize that you are not awake, that you must be dreaming. You are traveling in subjectivity; however, that subjectivity does not remain. You question and argue and then you forget, you lose this consciousness and are again traveling in impressions.

   4. Svapne-Turya: When you are in the dreaming state and observe some particular object, you perceive this particular object in the world of impressions. And when at that very moment, while in the dreaming state, you become aware, you become conscious that you are not awake, that you are in the dreaming state and, by the grace of your master, you cast away the objective world of impressions and enter into samadhi, this is the state of svapna turya. This state also is not permanent. Again, you fall into the dreaming state full of impressions and begin to dream. Realizing that you are again dreaming, you enter again into samadhi and then another dream comes and takes you away. You move from the dreaming state to samadhi and back to the dreaming state and again to samadhi and so forth. You are incapable of maintaining that state of samadhi.
       

3. Susupti: Deep Sleep, NO-thoughts/Thoughtlessness a.k.a Void/Sunya/Absolute-Slience but still under the field of Maya tattva and Kala/Time. It is NOT beyond Mind. PARAPARA shakti (Medium energy) is present.

   1. Susupti-Jagrat (Wakefulness in the state of Deep Sleep): You lose all impressions and thoughts and remain in absolute VOID/SUNYA; you have no consciousness. All the persons in this world does have access to thoughtlessness in deep-sleep. While remaining in this state, you are not aware and you do not taste its joy. For example, if you have fallen into this state of sound dreamless sleep, where you travel neither in objectivity nor in impressions, and then when you emerge from that dreamless state, someone asks you, “Where were you?” You would reply “I do not know anything.”

   2. Susupti-Svapna (Dreaming in the state of Dreaming): You have some impression of being in subjectivity, there is some cognition of remaining there. In this state, you are somewhat conscious that you are traveling in subjectivity.

   3. Susupti-Susupti (Deep sleep in Deep sleep): while you are traveling in the world of subjective consciousness, the impression, the faint idea that this is the world of subjective consciousness, remains in the background throughout, without interruption. Awareness remains in the background in an absolutely peaceful state. In this state, there is no agitation. We do NOT feel the bliss but do feel the PEACE.

   4. Susupti-Turya: You travel in the world of subjective consciousness. You are continuously aware of that subjective consciousness in the background and at the same time you experience the BLISS of this state.
       

4. Turya: Real bliss. This is first state which is beyond the MIND. This is what Gurbani is talking about. PARA shakti (Supreme energy) is present here. There are 7 STATES of Turya which is not discussed here. This is the REAL and getting here is no joke. The state of turya is said to be the penetration of all energies simultaneously, not in succession. All of the energies are residing there but are not in manifestation. They are all together without distinction. Many weird/strange experiences are encountered here. I guess that the experiences as told by Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji and Sant Waryam Singh Ji might have occurred here.

   1. Turya-Jagrat: It exists when the consciousness of turya is not vividly manifested. Here, the consciousness of turya is in a subconscious state; it is found in the background. In this state, though strong consciousness exists, it is not manifested totally.

   2. Turya-Svapna: Consciousness of turya is more vividly manifested. Consciousness is stronger here.

   3. Turya-Susupti: Consciousness of turya is the most vivid. Here, consciousness is the strongest.

   4. Turya-Turya: There is NO Turya-Turya mode/phase.

 

It is also good idea to keep in mind the list of 36 Tattvas/CREATORS (including Maya and Kaal/Time). Here is the list with gross to subtle: Keep in mind that the 3 gunas are not part of tattvas because those are created by Prikrti and not creators themselves.

1. 5 Great Elements: Objective tattva and under the field of Maya.

   1. Earth

   2. Water

   3. Fire

   4. Air

   5. Ether

2. 5 Subtle Elements: Objective tattva and under the field of Maya.

   1. Smell

   2. Taste

   3. Form

   4. Touch

   5. Sound

3. 5 Organs of Action: Objective tattva and under the field of Maya.

   1. Creative

   2. Excretion

   3. Foot

   4. Hand

   5. Speech

4. 5 Organs of Knowledge: Objective tattva and under the field of Maya.

   1. Nose

   2. Tongue

   3. Eye

   4. Skin

   5. Ear

5. 3 Internal Organs: Objective cum Subjective tattva and under the field of Maya.

   1. Mind

   2. Intellect

   3. Ego

6. 2 Natural: Objective cum Subjective tattva and under the field of Maya.

   1. Prakriti

   2. Pursha (Stress here that Pursha is still under the field of Maya)

7. 6 Coverings: Objective cum Subjective tattva and under the field of Maya.

   1. Limitation of Place

   2. Limitation of Time

   3. Limitation of Attachment

   4. Limitation of Knowledge

   5. Limitation of Action

   6. Illusion/Maya/Matrix of Individuality

8. 5 Pure and Real Elements: Subjective tattvas

   1. Sudha Vidaya (I-ness in I-ness)

   2. Isvara (Thisness in I-ness)

   3. Sadasiva (I-ness in Thisness)

   4. Shakti (I-ness)

   5. Siva (I-ness Being)

[Lucky]

Note that the above post was my own understanding from what I learned and in relation to gurbani.

I will add a little about why the "AIR"?

We understand that the Guru Nanakji tells us that Air/pavan is the Guru of Maya because it came first from the primal sunn-samadhi void, yes?

Science tells the same ........Before the earth was formed, the universe was just empty space. Empty space still has lots of things in it, but we call it "empty" because it's tremendously still.
As to the creation of the material cosmos, eventually the wind element started to arise in this great stillness.

Wind represents movement. and In the cosmos, at first the wind element was small, and then gradually it grew larger. The friction of the wind element with itself created the fire element, and the heat of the fire element caused agglomeration so that the water element formed. Eventually the water element cooled and congealed (solidified) to form the earth element, like water transforming into ice, and the earth element contains a all the other elements we know of.

 

With Meditation, the similar process is used, such that pavan/air element is used to get the prana energy activated and open up the nadis(meridians). Prana movements in the body are very similar to the wind movements.

 

Comparing to the other elements of fire, water and Earth, these can be meditated on using various visual techniques. Various techniques and methods exist among zen, Buddhist and Tibetan schools etc..However, Air the Guru of maya, cannot be seen and so a visualisation technique is too difficult.

 

Pranayama is the method for meditating on Air element, and saas saas is also a pranayama.

 

Patanjali defined pranayama as the gap between your inhalation and exhalation, and this gap will occur naturally if you meditate properly or follow your breath properly. Patanjali also goes on further to explain in the definition that  “The energy in the body is Prana. By controlling the (AIR) in the motion of the lungs or respiratory organs, we can control the Prana that is vibrating inside. By control of Prana, the mind can be easily controlled, because the mind is fastened to the Prana, like the bird to the string. Just as the bird that is tied to a post by a string, after flying here and there, finds its resting place in the post, so also this mind-bird after running hither and thither, in various sensual objects, finds its resting place during deep sleep in the Prana.”

 

By controlling the Air with application of mantra jap, we can control the Prana to open up and start flowing freely through nadis/meridians.

I have stressed previously about the importance of putting attention in between the "space" of inhalation and exhalation and to keep full attention on it when you go into silent slow saas saas simran.  This is an excellent practice that also helps to "hold" your attention on the sound of the silent mantra.  It is in this space, that the momentous and instant switch to higher states will occur.

 

 

 

 

[Lucky]

14 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

How would this idea work with the other 4 elements?

How do we attune ourselves to those elements in the body?

 

There are various visualisation techniques and I haven't  looked into them too deeply or attempted them. The enlightened yogis in the mountains of Himalayas and Tibet have done the very difficult earth element visualisations, where they gaze and visualize mountain or inside a cave and then drop into Samadhi for days and weeks.

14 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

How far along are you on this path?

What are your goals? What are you aiming towards?

I'm just at elementary stages yet. I have a long way before all my prana is flowing and sukhmana channel is glowing!

My real aim is to completely conquer the dhoots and enter His Sanctuary completely clean and that is where I'm trying to direct most of my energy. Surrendering ego and to be baliharey is soo difficult, but it is the Ultimate love energy that you could possibly ever offer.

 

[Lucky]

15 hours ago, das said:

 

• Tagging the more subtle element (i.e Air) as easy to learn/master/contemplate as compared to more dense elements (Earth, Water, and Fire) is not correct. I don't think one can master the "Air" element more-easily in relation to its grossest form (i.e Earth). But yes, we might find it easier To-Work-With-IF-We-Agree-To-Work-With-More-Subtle-Form i.e breathing. I guess this is what you've meant in the face of non-availability of proper words, as you've mentioned that mastery is not the correct word.

I think Ive covered what I was trying to explain above.

I would say Air is easier, in the sense that you can do it prior to attempting a water visualization, lets say. Maybe because my reference was in temrs of Air element practice via pranayama and patanjali's definition of inhalation-exhalation. Hope that makes a little more sense. Also, the fact that doing something more practical, since you can't visualise air, would seem a better first choice.

15 hours ago, das said:

From the below mentioned details, it will be quite clear that Sunya/Void is NOT beyond the Mind and Maya. Also, getting into Sunya is NOT equivalent to Turya (4th phase/mode).
 

TURYA (4th state/ phase/mode): Whenever Gurbani talks about the Turya phase, IT is talking about the main Turya phase and NOT the sub-phases of Turya under the other 3 modes. It is because Turya does not exist as separate mode, it continually co-exist in other modes. The details are as follows:

I'm not really following this about the overlapping of turiya. My reference to Sunn/primal void is the complete ego-less, self-less state of the Very STILL space before Air came into existence. It is ONLY here that there is no maya since there are NO elements.

(This is my understanding from gurbani, unless I've missed or misunderstood pangtees or a shabad)

The States you mention that overlap with turiya are actually maya states and I'm certain that Gurbani points in the direction that Turiya is beyond 3 gunnas of maya, which means No elements, no maya.  (we can work through the pangtees and even the complete shabads if you wish)

 

I have always understood the 3 gunas as the "trio" mentioned with varying correspondents, in all spiritual paths.

Raja	Sattva	Tamas
Activity	Truth / Goodness	Inertia
Passion / desire	Light / illumination	Darkness
Energy	Spiritual Essence	Mass / matter / heaviness
Expansion	Upward flow	Downward flow
Movement	Intelligence / Consciousness	Sloth / dullness
Binds by passion born of craving and attachment.	Binds by means of attachment to knowledge and joy.	Binds by means of ignorance and obstruction.
Is the ruling trait when greed, excessive projects, cravings and restlessness arise.	Is the ruling trait when the light of knowledge shines forth.	Is the ruling trait when darkness, dullness, stagnation, indolence, confusion, torpor, and inertia appear.

 

3 gunas correspond to Tamas(inertia), Rajas(dynamic) and Sattva(luminosity) principles.

 

In terms of consciousness

Sattva corresponds = WAKING consciousness,

Rajas to = DREAMIMG,

Tamas to = DEEP SLEEP or Dreamless consciousness.

 

 From Wikipedia,   .."Turiya is the background that underlies and transcends the three common states of consciousness. The states of consciousness are: waking consciousness, dreaming, and dreamless sleep"

 

To add, In Vedanta this same trio corresponds to ananda(bliss), chit(consciousness) and sat(being), In esoteric buddhism, they correspond to Bliss, illumination and no-thought. In Physics these correspond to Heat, force and light; and in earthly realm they correspond to water, air and sunshine.

( I know this topic gets complicated with all the different demonstrations of how and what corresponds with each other, But I have always tried to keep it simple for my limited intellect, and I thought that it was straightforward with 5 tat relationship?)

 

 

[das]

9 hours ago, Lucky said:

I'm not really following this about the overlapping of turiya.

All I'm saying is that: It seems like you're implying that Sunya is equivalent to Turya and that's where I differ.
1. Sun/primal void is not equivalent to Turya. Void is not independent of maya.
2. But yes, Turya (4th state) is beyond the 3 gunas.

Moreover, I would NOT say that Air is the Guru of Maya. Gurbani most of the time is talking directly to us or our Minds, but I didn't see it talking to Maya. BabaJi is saying that Pavan is Our (human beings) Guru.

Why Air/Pavan is Guru of us (humans):

Guru Ji said, “Pavan Guru” The guide, the teacher who has the right to give you all that you need on this planet, is the breath. Breath is our guide, our sage, our knowledge.  Breath comes from Par Paraa (beyond the beyond). Our life is based on the pavan, the carrier of the praana, the praan shakti (power of life). It is the Pavan/Air which takes carries the Prana to us; due to which we exist as physical body. Breath is external manifestation of Praana and Breath/Praana comes through the Air/Pavan. It’s not the 1st breath that makes the baby live, it is alive in uterus. It’s not the air that gives life, but the praana that rides on the air. We call it para shakti (power beyond power). e.g we have a car (Body) with a driver (Soul), intelligent computer (Mind) but we don't have the fuel/petrol/gas/electric-power (Prana, the breath of life) which is supposed to run the car. From all the car example the most important thing is to have the Gas (Prana) which comes from Beyond-the-Beyond and via the Air element. That's why Air/Pavan is our Guru.

ਪਵਣੈ  ਕੈ  ਵਸਿ  ਦੇਹੁਰੀ  ਮਸਤਕਿ  ਸਚੁ  ਨੀਸਾਣੁ  ॥੫॥

ਪ੍ਰਾਨ  ਮਨੁ  ਤਨੁ  ਜਿਨਹਿ  ਦੀਆ  ਰਿਦੇ  ਕਾ  ਆਧਾਰੁ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥

ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਗੁਫਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਰਖਿ ਕੈ ਵਾਜਾ ਪਵਣੁ ਵਜਾਇਆ ॥

 

 

[BhagatSingh]

11 hours ago, Lucky said:

There are various visualisation techniques and I haven't  looked into them too deeply or attempted them. The enlightened yogis in the mountains of Himalayas and Tibet have done the very difficult earth element visualisations, where they gaze and visualize mountain or inside a cave and then drop into Samadhi for days and weeks.

Visualization would be something else. I mean which element are we attuning to when focusing on a mental form? I think visualization is not connected to any elements (at least not without experience the element itself). When you said we attune to the air we breathe in order to attain smadhi, I thought you were also thinking of other elements in the body that we could attune to.

But after giving it some thought. I don't think we attune to any elements exactly. We attune to our body, which is composed of 5 elements. In meditation we are largely attuning to the body. In order to connect to air or any other element, we would have to go outside and experience it.

When we breathe we aren't attuning to the air but rather the repetition of the breath, the breathing cycle. Some people focus on the sound vibrations of the mantra as they hear it in their ear, others maybe quiet and focus on the sensation of air on the tip of their nose, others might watch the stomach rise and fall. But one could also focus on the nerves in the body and feel the entire body. Feel the aliveness in the body.

This is something I do a great deal. I focus on the body form and bring it into sharp focus where I know exactly where my limbs are, all of them and I can feel their distinct shape. I slowly turn up the 'concentration nob' until the sensation of the body, the experience of the bodily shape, starts to turn into a fuzzy cloud. Then I focus on the fuzzy cloud body, until that starts to dissipate into nothing, where the body shape is completely out of focus. That then leaves me with no body as experience in my state of awareness, where I am present only in my head

 

Quote

I'm just at elementary stages yet. I have a long way before all my prana is flowing and sukhmana channel is glowing!

My real aim is to completely conquer the dhoots and enter His Sanctuary completely clean and that is where I'm trying to direct most of my energy. Surrendering ego and to be baliharey is soo difficult, but it is the Ultimate love energy that you could possibly ever offer.

What is the next step for you?
From where you are standing what it the step you must take to get to the next stage?

[BhagatSingh]

@Lucky

Let me know if you don't want to share those details. Don't leave me hanging.

[HisServant]

Sadhguru has some good videos on the 5 elements as well. They don't go into much detail but are still good for an introduction. 

 

 

 

 

[sarabatam]

This is really good thread, really nice informative post.

[sarabatam]

  Great thread as always just adding panj tat da dhyaan esoteric translations from japji sahib teeka by sant gyani gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale