Sikhi Guidance

[angy15]

13 hours ago, Jageera said:

Thanks all for your tips and contribution.I have 1 question.What is your opinion on this book 'The Sikh Religion' by Macauliffe?I managed to find volume 5 in my house.Interesting read.Just started on Guru Gobind Singh Ji's life.Is this book historically accurate?

Also,what is the difference between SGGS 'Sanchian' and 'Steek'?Thanks.

Yes you can read it but with cautions (its not 100 percent accurate)  that is the oldest available History Book.The other is Sikh History Ten Volumes By Historian Dr. Harjinder Singh Dilgeer .Its the most authenticated work compare to others done till date.It starts from  history before Guru Nanak and  till I think 2008.

English translation is not avaible online but His work in punjabi is available online .

[Jageera]

2 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

Sanchain are volumes of guru granth sahib ji and steeks give meanings and arths of gurbani.

Ah ok.So Sanchian would be full Gurmukhi.So I should focus on getting Steeks.Thanks.

[Jageera]

34 minutes ago, angy15 said:

Yes you can read it but with cautions (its not 100 percent accurate)  that is the oldest available History Book.The other is Sikh History Ten Volumes By Historian Dr. Harjinder Singh Dilgeer .Its the most authenticated work compare to others done till date.It starts from  history before Guru Nanak and  till I think 2008.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

35 minutes ago, angy15 said:

 

English translation is not avaible online but His work in punjabi is available online .

Owh ok.

[chatanga1]

2 hours ago, angy15 said:

The other is Sikh History Ten Volumes By Historian Dr. Harjinder Singh Dilgeer .Its the most authenticated work compare to others done till date.

@Jageera  if you want to beleive that Guru Nanak spent 3 days hiding in the Bein Rivere contemplating his next course of action, or that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never took khande ki pahul then read dilgeers book. Anybody who has faith in Guru Sahib's would never waste their time or money on dilgeers books.

[Jageera]

39 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

@Jageera  if you want to beleive that Guru Nanak spent 3 days hiding in the Bein Rivere contemplating his next course of action, or that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never took khande ki pahul then read dilgeers book. Anybody who has faith in Guru Sahib's would never waste their time or money on dilgeers books.

Ok thanks.Anyways I cant read punjabi yet so it is out of the question.Any alternative suggestion you can make on books in english?

[chatanga1]

If like me you prefer to read from real books, then I would suggest a visit to your local library to see what they have there to begin with.  then look to purchase from India/ online. Avoid buying any books from missionaries/ghagri cult followers.

 

Otherwise go to sikh book club website. there are thousands of PDFs there.

[chatanga1]

Look under literature section on this forum and there are many websites there where you can find books to read.

I dont know how old you are but these are a good start, although they are aimed at younger readers

[angy15]

@Jageera  "Anyways I cant read punjabi yet so it is out of the question.Any alternative suggestion you can make on books in english?"

Take it as a  blessing from Akal purakh not knowing punjabi otherwise you would have been  wasting time studying Fairy tails and Mythological Sikhi  .Dr Dilgeer is renowned Historian from Punjab University   he is  neither a missionary nor a taksali or associated with any Dera .

Why I propose Dr Dilgeer works over Traditional Samaradyee Books can be understood by a sufi parable

Someone saw Nasrudin searching for something on the ground.
What have you lost, Mulla?  he asked. “My key,” said the Mulla. So
they both went down on their knees and looked for it. After a time
the other man asked: “Where exactly did you drop it?” “In my own
house.” “Then why are you looking here?” “There is more light here
than inside my own house.”

This Sufi story could remain as a useful example for anybody looking  to the history of the Sikh Gurus . It suggests that we may look for our own keys, our own understandings, outside our own houses, our own cultures, beyond the light of the familiar sources.  There  has been shortage of what photographers call available light to help us discover what we are looking for, but in recent years historians like Dr. Dilgeer  have produced good translations and intelligent interpretations of  Sikh History  and pointers to both texts and material evidence that others(like traditional Sampradyess) had not noticed before.

So its just we have to  come out from the  old sources and  venture into new sources  to understand Sikhi in 21st century.

 

Its your  choice.

[chatanga1]

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

Someone saw Nasrudin searching for something on the ground.
What have you lost, Mulla?  he asked. “My key,” said the Mulla. So
they both went down on their knees and looked for it. After a time
the other man asked: “Where exactly did you drop it?” “In my own
house.” “Then why are you looking here?” “There is more light here
than inside my own house.”

Sounds like missionary/ghaghri cultists making fools out of others.

 

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

So its just we have to  come out from the  old sources and  venture into new sources  to understand Sikhi in 21st century.

Gurmat is the same as it was in in the 15th century. Missionary/ghaghri cultist can't bring anything new to Sikhi. If they try, its only their own deviation.

[dalsingh101]

On 10/17/2018 at 6:33 PM, Jageera said:

Thanks all for your tips and contribution.I have 1 question.What is your opinion on this book 'The Sikh Religion' by Macauliffe?I managed to find volume 5 in my house.Interesting read.Just started on Guru Gobind Singh Ji's life.Is this book historically accurate?

 

What you've (probably inadvertently) hit upon is something I believe is so currently important to our panth (especially the English reading section). 

My own journey has been one where I came up in 'Sikhism' (mainly through relying on English works for my knowledge), only to later discover that much of what I had learnt was skewed due to political processes. 'Sikhism', to me, represents a sort of political animal that was developed by the Brits during colonization, to essentially make the Sikhs more docile, casteist and accept being disarmed and loyal to them and their cause (global imperialism). It's a sort of weird mix of Sikh external form with a subtly embedded protestant Christian, and Victorian era prudery hidden within. 

So one of the things you will have to learn over time is to have a discerning eye about what you read and be able to critique it's strengths and weaknesses. Macauliffe wrote this book as an apology for an earlier very negative work by a German called Ernest Trumpf. Macauliffe even explicitly mentions that at that time, the 'version' of 'Amrit' that the colonising Brits were giving to Sikh recruits in the army included a vow of loyalty to the king/queen of england. If that's not a corruption then I don't know what is. 

I'd suggest this for your development. Read the volume by Maucallief that refers to Guru Gobind Singh. Then read the sections of Bhangu's Panth Prakash about Guru ji. Then I'd suggest reading Bal and Grewal's biography on dasmesh pita and then reflect on the differences between. To me it looks like: 

Macauliffe represents a modern compromised Christianised interpretation. 

Bhangu represents a precolonial SIkh perspective. 

Bal and Grewal give an account of Guru ji's life using a modern historiography approach.  You can get this last book here: https://www.scribd.com/doc/156868315/Guru-Gobind-Singh-a-Biographical-Study-J-S-Grewal-S-S-Bal

[Jageera]

7 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

If like me you prefer to read from real books, 

Yup.Can't read for long anything on a screen.

" then look to purchase from India/ online"- What India bookstore website have you used that you can recommend?

[dalsingh101]

12 minutes ago, Jageera said:

Yup.Can't read for long anything on a screen.

I can't either. Has to be old fashioned books. lol

[Jageera]

3 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

What you've (probably inadvertently) hit upon is something I believe is so currently important to our panth (especially the English reading section). 

My own journey has been one where I came up in 'Sikhism' (mainly through relying on English works for my knowledge), only to later discover that much of what I had learnt was skewed due to political processes. 'Sikhism', to me, represents a sort of political animal that was developed by the Brits during colonization, to essentially make the Sikhs more docile, casteist and accept being disarmed and loyal to them and their cause (global imperialism). It's a sort of weird mix of Sikh external form with a subtly embedded protestant Christian, and Victorian era prudery hidden within. 

So one of things you will have to learn over time is to have a discerning eye about what you read and be able to critique it's strengths and weaknesses. Macauliffe wrote this book as an apology for an earlier very negative work by a German called Ernest Trumpf. Macauliffe even explicitly mentions that at that time, the 'version' of 'Amrit' that the colonising Brits were giving to Sikh recruits in the army included a vow of loyalty to the king/queen of england. If that's not a corruption than I don't know what is. 

I'd suggest this for your development. Read the volume by Maucallief that refers to Guru Gobind Singh. Then read the sections of Bhangu's Panth Prakash about Guru ji. Then I'd suggest reading Bal and Grewal's biography on dasmesh pita and then reflect on the differences between. To me it looks like: 

Macauliffe represents a modern compromised Christianised interpretation. 

Bhangu represents a precolonial SIkh perspective. 

Bal and Grewal give an account of Guru ji's life using a modern historiography approach.  You can get this last book here: https://www.scribd.com/doc/156868315/Guru-Gobind-Singh-a-Biographical-Study-J-S-Grewal-S-S-Bal

Agree 100%. Was just reading Macauliffe vol5.Detected pro-English propaganda on page 107-108.But overall the stories are very interesting.

 

3 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Macauliffe even explicitly mentions that at that time, the 'version' of 'Amrit' that the colonising Brits were giving to Sikh recruits in the army included a vow of loyalty to the king/queen of england. If that's not a corruption than I don't know what is. here: https://www.scribd.com/doc/156868315/Guru-Gobind-Singh-a-Biographical-Study-J-S-Grewal-S-S-Bal

This is messed up.Even in my Benti Chaupee small gutka,theres a page with 'The Fundamentals of Sikh Commandments'.In the 'Beliefs' section there is:

1)The belief in One God, 2)The belief in the Guru, 3)The belief in the Guru Granth Sahib, 4)The belief in freedom, 5)The belief in democracy.

Hmmmm,belief in freedom and democracy are Sikh fundamentals?When did we become Muricans?Maybe freedom and democracy dropped from the sky with B52 bombers?

[dalsingh101]

2 minutes ago, Jageera said:

Agree 100%. Was just reading Macauliffe vol5.Detected pro-English propaganda on page 107-108.But overall the stories are very interesting.

 

The sakhis are fascinating, don't get me wrong in that department. But once you read that, read Bhangu's work on the 10th Guru and notice the stark difference. 

Quote

 

This is messed up.Even in my Benti Chaupee small gutka,theres a page with 'The Fundamentals of Sikh Commandments'.In the 'Beliefs' section there is:

1)The belief in One God, 2)The belief in the Guru, 3)The belief in the Guru Granth Sahib, 4)The belief in freedom, 5)The belief in democracy.

Hmmmm,belief in freedom and democracy are Sikh fundamentals?When did we become Muricans?Maybe freedom and democracy dropped from the sky with B52 bombers?

 

Exactly, Sikhs were colonised for 100 years, that's enough time to introduce all manner of things into the mix by the colonisers - and they weren't shy in doing that neither. lol

[Jageera]

23 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

But once you read that, read Bhangu's work on the 10th Guru and notice the stark difference. 

Ok,will do.

[Soulfinder]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

I can't either. Has to be old fashioned books. lol

Veer ji I am the same as well lol 

[chatanga1]

14 hours ago, Jageera said:

What India bookstore website have you used that you can recommend?

This will work if you visit India only. I go to singh brothers and csjs when i go to india. Whenever I see a book that i want I look for it on amazon india as they do cash on delivery for most books. I get them sent to my aunt and then will collect them from her whenever i go. Books are a lot cheaper in india. If cost isn't an issue, then amazon usa/uk will also do international deliveries. Otherwise I have found some good books on ebay as well.

[Jageera]

On 10/19/2018 at 4:39 PM, chatanga1 said:

This will work if you visit India only. I go to singh brothers and csjs when i go to india. Whenever I see a book that i want I look for it on amazon india as they do cash on delivery for most books. I get them sent to my aunt and then will collect them from her whenever i go. Books are a lot cheaper in india. If cost isn't an issue, then amazon usa/uk will also do international deliveries. Otherwise I have found some good books on ebay as well.

Ok thanks.

[angy15]

On 10/18/2018 at 3:35 PM, chatanga1 said:

@Jageera  if you want to beleive that Guru Nanak spent 3 days hiding in the Bein Rivere contemplating his next course of action, or that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never took khande ki pahul then read dilgeers book. Anybody who has faith in Guru Sahib's would never waste their time or money on dilgeers books.

What  does it matter whether Guru Nanak spent 3 days   merged inside  the  the river or  rested across the other side planning his next udasi  etc . What is their for you to learn?

 

 

[amardeep]

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

What  does it matter whether Guru Nanak spent 3 days   merged inside  the  the river or  rested across the other side planning his next udasi  etc . What is their for you to learn?

 

 

Are you for real ? It is the main catalyst event in the life of Guru Nanak. The event that elevated Maharaj from a pure devotee to a world guru. The importance was such that it was immortalised by all Janam Sakhi writers - whether punjabi or braj - and can even be found indirectly in the Persian writings of Bhai Nand Lal. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by amardeep

[chatanga1]

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

What  does it matter whether Guru Nanak spent 3 days   merged inside  the  the river or  rested across the other side planning his next udasi  etc . What is their for you to learn?

Well if you feel there is nothing to learn from history why are you recommending books for the OP to read?

[chatanga1]

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

or  rested across the other side planning his next udasi 

rested from what? Guru Sahib had only got up a little earlier to go and do ishnaan.

 

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

rested across the other side planning his next udasi  etc

 

next? Which udasi had Guru Sahib performed before Bein episode.

 

@Jageera Brother, this is exactly why you should avoid parasites like angy and missionary/ghagri vermin. They have no idea what they are talking about.

[angy15]

3 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Well if you feel there is nothing to learn from history why are you recommending books for the OP to read?

Not at all realted to my reply.

Did I mean that?it was u who pointed out this incident and u should be explaining how does it matters to anyone whether Guruji  was inside the river for three days or sitting beside the river?what matters is the gift which Guruji gave to the mankind that unfortunately you don't seems to be interested.

Your problem withDr Dilgeer as an historian is  he does not comes from corrupted school of thoughts of yours.

 

[angy15]

3 hours ago, amardeep said:

Are you for real ? It is the main catalyst event in the life of Guru Nanak. The event that elevated Maharaj from a pure devotee to a world guru. The importance was such that it was immortalised by all Janam Sakhi writers - whether punjabi or braj - and can even be found indirectly in the Persian writings of Bhai Nand Lal. 

No one is denying the divine gift of Japji Guruji gave to the world from that place.

So the important event occured is the gift of Bani to world.Whether Nanak was inside the river for 3days or 7days or whether he was sitting aside the river bed becomes inconsequential

My reply was in context to a stupid comment made by @chatanga1

[angy15]

2 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

next? Which udasi had Guru Sahib performed before Bein episode

It was you who brought this information to everyone's knowledge .plz read ur comment again. So you should be answering it.