sikh_fauge Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 According to shastar-vidiya.org the buddha dal was an organisation set up by baba buddha ji. Hence the buddha dal and the nihangs have been around since the times of guru nanak dev ji..right?? However, im confused, because ive stumbled accross some manuscripts (persian sources) which have been compiled together by bhagat singh (punjab university,ma.phd.) and according to those sources (as well as the viewpoint of bhagat singh), the origins of the buddha dal are at the hands of nawab kapur singh; a prominent leader of the singhpuria misal. According to him (in light of his sources im assuming) it was he who set up the tarna dal, and the buddha dal (for men over 40) where the latter were responsible for the administrative tasks of of the panth i.e. upkeeping of gurudwarai,etc and the tarna dal were responsible for fighting against the mughal/afghan government. Kapur singh was responsible for setting the above system up and also for the formation of the misals (to counter the countless jathas which had formed; he wanted the sikhs to unite/solidify under a handful of able leaders.) Im confused, what are the origins of the buddha dal, and were they all exclusively nihang singhs? (Note: there was a misal called the nihang or shahidi misal, which to me implies the nihangs, even then, were a minority, and werent the benchmrk for all khalsa sikhs.) Thanks in advance! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sardar Moderator Singh Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Sikh_fauge, this is a valid question to ask, I would imagine one needs to look at discrepancies that arise from oral and written history in the first instance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 According to shastar-vidiya.org the buddha dal was an organisation set up by baba buddha ji. Hence the buddha dal and the nihangs have been around since the times of guru nanak dev ji..right?? i thought the nihangs were "made" once baba budha ji taught, Guru Hargobind the vidiya, that he learnt when he was with Guru Nanak. ps i cnt do quotes 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sardar Moderator Singh Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Again, the point being to understand the differences between oral and written traditions and also between linear history and that expounded by mythology. Nihangs for that matter, have been around in the armies of Chandi -read Chandi-di-Var for the account...the question here concerns Buddha Dal and Tarna Dal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 ooooooooooooooh sorry sir 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh47 Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Doesn’t the Shastar Vidya site also say that the Nihangs fought along side with Chandi Devi in the epic battle against the Rakshas army? This battle was fought for Swarg lok, the abode of Inder Dev(the king of the Devtas). If what they claim is true, then wasn’t this battle fought thousands of years before Baba Budha Jee’s birth. Some how these contradictory claims don’t make sense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted October 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Anyone know when the buddha dal was actually set up?? Do the authors of shastarvidiya.org have specific dates,sources,etc i can turn to?? Apologies if i sound sceptical..this thread was initially just the result of confusion, and now im really interested to know!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sardar Moderator Singh Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Singh47, I am not sure of what the ShasterVidiya site says on this matter, although shall have a look, however your comment concerning the battles being 1000's of year before Baba Buddha Jee being born is precisely my point. It is like the discussion on Yugs, are these to be taken literally in the form of linear time (as the Hari Krishnas try and do) or are these in fact to be taken as 'mystical' time and treated accordingly, same would apply here? Only an idea... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted October 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Narsingha, could you please help me out with this one?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 I moved this topic here since Formal debate section gets most of its attention. Please discuss ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sardar Moderator Singh Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Gyani Gyan Singh in his "Twarikh Guru Khalsa" clearly indicates that the Buddha Dal came into formation c. 1734. Sikh Fauge, Bhagat Singh's conclusion that the Buddha Dal (for men over 40) were responsible for the administrative tasks of of the panth and the Tarna Dal for fighting against the mughal/afghan government does not seem too far from what historical texts indicate -even on the Buddha Dal website, the split of the Misls in the Tarna and Buddha Dal are given, have a look at these and then see which of these Misls are most popular in terms of achievements and historical events. The questions that arise herein are:- 1) Are the "Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa" really the 'original Khalsa' as purported on their websites, given that they only came into existence c. 1734 -some 35 years after the first Amrit Sanchar. 2) Is the Buddha Dal really the main organisation, or simply one that acts as an umbrella on account of its member's age profile and ownership of land and wealth (accumulated via the efforts of the Tarna Dal)? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted December 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 (thanks for that moderator) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 1) Are the "Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa" really the 'original Khalsa' as purported on their websites, given that they only came into existence c. 1734 -some 35 years after the first Amrit Sanchar. I thought it was the Budha Dal that was created in 1734 by Nihangs...implying that Nihangs already existed as an entity??? :? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Lots of confusion here!!!! 1. Let us make a distinction between history and meta-history. By metahistory I understand the elidaic and corbinist notion of sacred time outside human time. To place the battle of Chandi a few thousand years before Budha Dal within the context of human history (as bother Singh47) is non-sense (no offense meant here) as we are clearly talking about meta-history here. 2. Budha Dal is as an organisation was set by Nawab Kapur Singh. It was a way of organising the already existing Akali NIhang SIngh Khalsa into two groups for the sake of organisation. In clear terms: Nihangs as a sampradaya existed already it is just that they formally organised themselves in Budha Dal and Tarna Dal later with of course the supreme leadership remaining with Budha Dal. In fact Tarna Dal was disbanded later on and reabsorbed into the Budha Dal which clearly proves that we are talking about one chivalry order occasionally organising itself into different sections when the need arises. 3. So we can say that Akali NIhang SIngh Khalsa was created by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, had its roots in the Akal Sena of Guru Hargobind Ji and formally organised itself as Budha Dal and Tarna Dal later, Budha Dal being its supreme representative and authoritative body. Clear proof of that is the fact that Akali Baba Nihal Singh of Tarna Dal considers Baba Santa Singh as supreme jathedar of the Panth. From a meta-historical point of view one an say that the Nihangs of Chandi di var are the eternal archetypes of which the historical Akali NIhang Singh Khalsa is the temporal embodiement. If I did any mistakes please do correct me (Narsingha). If I offended anyone please accept my apologies as I did not intend to do so. Moderator Request: With regard to the mention of 'nihangs' in Chandi Di Var -is this term ever used for a 'sikh' in any of the Chandi Compositions written by Guru Gobind Singh? Please consider. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 As with ALL great warrior traditions (Rajputs, Marattas, Gurkhas, even Mongols, Greeks, Romans, etc), the Akali Nihangs possess both a mythological lineage, as well as an historic one. Mythologically, the Akali Nihangs trace their lineage to Chandi (as in Durga ki Vaar, etc). The vibrant Akali Nihang oral tradition speaks of this too. Historically, the original "Akaal Sena" as created/trained by Shromani Sidki Sikh Akali Baba Budha Ji, and Akali Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji was informally known as "Baba Budha ji ki Fauj", out of reverence for Baba Budha Ji. This standing army was known under various nicknames: "Akalis" (referring to the fact they resided at the 'Akaal Bunga' and they also recited "Akaal Akaal" in battle) "Akaal Sena" "Budha Dal" "Khalsa" Later during Banda Bahadur's time when the Akalis fought the 'Bandai Khalsa', they became known in some circles as the "Akal Purakhia" and "Tat Khalsa"....all these terms refered to what we know today as the "Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa". As u rightly pointed out, 96 Crore Jathedar Akali Nihang Baba Kapur Singh formalised what were collectively the "Akalis" (also known as "Akali Nihangs", "Akaal Sena", "Budha Dal", etc) into the "Budha Dal" and "Tarna Dal". Today, as back then, ALL Jathedars of the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa Budha Dal and Tarna Dal consider the head of the Budha Dal (ie, presently Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh) as "Shromani" (supreme commander in chief). In essence it can be said that the Budha Dal represents the original 'Akaal Sena' of Akali Baba Budha Ji. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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