Niranjana Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 <<That is how Sanatan Sikhs function, they may be as varied in appearance, maryada, traditions, and perception as they come, but they know how to come together without any problems...thats the beauty of Dharam.>> Narsingha, whilst agreeing with the "beauty of Dharam", this is how all "Sikhs" are to behave and also any other followers of great Dharamik masters the world over, be they Sikhs, Buddhists, Muslim, Christian or what have you. This is not a feature unique to "sanatan" Sikhs alone. Whilst acknowledging that many from these groups have behaved to the contrary, the same is also true of the Sanatan Sikhs as much as it is of anyone else, as displayed the mass murder of those Nirmalas by the NIhangs of Hazoor Sahib, that too in the precincts of the Gurdwara Sahib. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 <<That is how Sanatan Sikhs function, they may be as varied in appearance, maryada, traditions, and perception as they come, but they know how to come together without any problems...thats the beauty of Dharam.>> Narsingha, whilst agreeing with the "beauty of Dharam", this is how all "Sikhs" are to behave and also any other followers of great Dharamik masters the world over, be they Sikhs, Buddhists, Muslim, Christian or what have you. This is not a feature unique to "sanatan" Sikhs alone. Whilst acknowledging that many from these groups have behaved to the contrary, the same is also true of the Sanatan Sikhs as much as it is of anyone else, as displayed the mass murder of those Nirmalas by the NIhangs of Hazoor Sahib, that too in the precincts of the Gurdwara Sahib. Well, as the old saying goes, $hit happens. Every faith has its "rogue elements" that do not wish to adhere to the "ideal" or accept the status quo...in the case of Sanatan Sikhs, this is especially so amongst the Nihang Singhs Dharam is universal and does go beyond Sanatan Sikhs - there is no disputing that, however, I was speaking in context to the topic at hand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikher Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Any news of an updates on www.sarbloh.info explaning this ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikher Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Any news of an updates on www.sarbloh.info explaning this ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Yes, I am working on it as we speak... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikher Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Will be good to see new info on the sites that have inspired many out there to search deeper into the soul and learn about origins/traditions. Any time soon or in the new year ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Dear Sikher, If one wishes to look at the origins of anything, surely the idea would be to go as far back as possible, as Sikhs we are very fortunate to have a history so rich yet condensed into our 500 years of formal existence. The information brought forth in the websites and lectures by Nihang Niddar Singh and others are useful, granted, however it would be a fallacy to regard these as ‘original’ or ‘ancient’ –i.e. Sanatan, in the manner used by the website. The notions put forth under these sites/lectures actually belong to the Sanatan Singh Sabha, itself a reformist movement changing much of what was already in place, how then can one refer to these as ‘sanatan’? As raised by the moderators of this site, referencing Gyani Gyan Singh and Rattan Singh Bhangoo is hardly looking at the origins, texts like Sri Gur Sobha certainly would however qualify better for this type of analysis given its contemporary nature. It is worth noting that there is no mention of ‘sanatan’ in this text or indeed any of the myths surrounding Naina Devi , issues concerning practices such as Sukh Nidhan, Khoon da Tilak, Udasi Sampradha (Baba Sri Chand and Baba Gurditta), Nirmala origins of the 5 Sikhs going to Kansi etc, which given their importance as Sampradhas within the Sanatan Sikhi context seems to be very strange that Kavi Sainapati, a close associate of Guru Gobind Singh, would fail to capture such historic events within his works. It is apparent that the foundations for what is being termed “Sanatan Sikhi” come much later than the Guru Period and in many cases are no different to the lineage claims made by the likes of the Damdami Taksal, Rara Sahib and others, which frequently come under fire from many scholars and jathas for their inconsistencies, the further one goes up the line. The success of the neo-Sanatan campaign over recent years primarily in the UK can be boiled down to a few simple things like... ...asymmetry of information (it is clear from some of the more immature criticism and slander levelled at Sanatan Sikhs, that many other Sikhs today have not even considered reading original texts or looking beyond the views of their Sant, Baba, Bhai Sahib or Sunday School teacher)... ...the majority of those who have adopted the Sanatan Sikh title for themselves are likewise reliant solely on the words of Nihang Niddar Singh however are unwilling to do their own homework, hence the reports of substance-abuse, laxity with matters relating to basic rehit (such as Nitnem, Ishnaan etc) and such like (i.e. before going into the modern day arguments over meat, keski and other non-issues) amongst the UK Nihangs, drawing a bad name for themselves and also for Nihang Niddar Singh in the process... ...similarly the vast majority of these issues are most common amongst those who have come from backgrounds blinkered by a solely AKJ or SGPC views and now seek ‘loop holes’ within what they perceive as Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa Maryada to partake in the aforementioned activities... Narsingha, I note has indicated that his site updates will include references to the earlier puratan sources as such Gur Sobha which should certainly help understand more about the background to the Sanatan Sikh assertions put forward to date. Gur Fateh! Niranjana. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikher Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Thanks for that piece, its good to see Sikhi from all angles and perspectives and ideally search ourselves and not rely on one website. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Niranjana, there are many in the UK who have taken it upon themselves to use the Nihang maryada as a backdoor to allow the weaknesses of their characters to take over. However, this cannot be said to be the "majority" as you have stated above. Perhaps the public itself is not fully aware of Nihang Maryada and therefore consider people to be "relaxed" with regards to their rehit. As an example, if one mentioned that an amritdhari Sikh could consume meat and Shaheedi Degh around 5 years ago, it would be a greater shock back then than it is today. This is because people are becoming AWARE of Nihang Maryada and are realising this is part of Nihang maryada (..assuming it is not abused). In the same way, there are MANY elements of Nihang maryada that are yet to be revealed to the public at large....indeed, some may remain "gupt" for a variety of reasons. What we have revealed with regards to Nihang maryada on the websites is a tiny glimpse compared to what there really is... As such, it would be wise not to give into ignorance and make such generalised statements about individuals. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 Narsingha, To clarify, I am not making any 'ignorant' generalisations, even Ustad Nihang Niddar Singh has commented to the same effect when I have spoken with him. The public at large may well have been "shocked with revelations such as Maas and Shaheedi Degh", I certainly was not, the reasons for this you are well aware, as per our shared backgrounds in the pre-Namdhari and pre-GNNSJ influenced East African Sikh Diaspora. In any event, I am not making these comments to discuss these matters, you've hit the nail on the head with your "assumption" that the Maryada is not abused...I'll leave this here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 Nihang Niddar Singh does use the analogy as given to him by his Gurdev where out of 100 Sikhs learning Shastar Vidiya (in its pure "jung di Vidiya" format), approximately 1-5 will learn it, and perhaps 1 may turn out to be the next Gurdev. With regards to Nihang maryada, the Akali Nihang Singhs state that out of 100 Sikhs initiated into the Nihang maryada, approximately 5 will retain the knowledge, and practice it, and the rest will flow in and out of it, or loose it entirely. In essence, the 100 (ie, the majority) may be "considered" to be Nihang Singhs, but in reality only Akal Purakh is aware of who is truly a warrior Khalsa. Everything is spoken of within the correct context, and even learned Akali Nihang Singhs will be the first to admit these are "generalisations" with regards to Nihangs and their maryada, and not the exact truth - for Mahakaal may bless all 100 (in the case of this analogy) and they may all turn out to be mighty warriors.... Anyway, have a great xmas... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 Veera, You too! Vadhaeya for the JanamPurab of Sant Isha Bhagat! Have a good festive season! Niranjana. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted January 6, 2005 Report Share Posted January 6, 2005 Coming back to the Nirmala Origins, I have had the chance to come across some interesting articles which clearly demonstrate the attitudes of the Hazoori Singhs of old with regard to the Nirmalas. Please allow me a few days and I shall try to transcribe these onto the forum for all. It contains within it some interesting points with regard to the assertions of both the Nirmalas and the Nihangs and their fixation with Hazoor Sahib and the true attitude of the Hazoori Singhs towards these groups. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sardar Moderator Singh Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 1. The SIkh Gurus were all kshatriyas hence dvijas and hence the right to learn Sanskrit wich they did at their local dharamsala (like the Janamsakhis show) and later on by personal tutors. It is a known fact that Keshdhari Sikh Brahmins played an important role in teh administration of the court of the Gurus. Sanskrit is just part of classical Indian education and people from all religious backgrounds (provided they were not shudras) learnt it. Even Mughal priences such as Dara Shukih learnt Sanskrit. 2. No need to go to Kashi if you have already mastered it at home 4. Yes: what's the point :roll: Perhaps the forum could consider the following in view of the above rationale: The Sikh Gurus and their families were indeed Kshatriyas and had Keshdari Brahmin Prohits, so clearly the route to learning Sanskrit was already available within the Darbar of the Guru, which would appear to be the exact point made concerning the 52 poets. Hence resources are freely available within Guru Ghar for training the Singhs in Sanskrit –equally the challenge from the Pundit against the Jatts could have surely been met just as easily by having them trained locally or “at home†without having to go to Kanshi? And how does one master Sanskrit and all the classics in the short space of 2 years as indicated by the Kanshi account? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freed Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Yet again Living up to the name "Picture encyclopaedia of Sikhi" given to me by Pheena Bhai Sahib - here is a picture from http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/ It doesn't really add anything to the debate - just thought it was interesting ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 Thats a new one, I wonder what the source is since, a) they are not wearing bhagva bana and there are more than 5 (some sources say there were more than the original five sent) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Sometinmes various jathes or samprdayes try to pass off something as oral traditions state this and that especaiilly the nihangs. Same to point with the nirmalas. The 5 Sikhs who went to Kashi were refused sanskrit vidya becasue of thier caste. They retunred to Akali Guru Gobind Singh and received the vidya from him, and henceforth Damdama Sahib was also known as Guru Ki Kashi. Kashi of the Sikhs. What answers does the sanskirt texts have that Aad Guru Darbar or Dasam Guru Darbar dont have? Ask yoursleves and the whole issue of this samprdaye will become clearer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.