Raagmala

[Narsingha]

narinder, try not to make the debate a personal one, and mentioning people's names and locations wont make your comments any more credible. :roll:

Or are you hoping that mentioning names and locations will deter people from questioning the AKJ and get intimidated by you and the AKJ? Grow up. 8)

Secondly, you seem have simply dismissed the FACTS placed in front of you, and to want to divert the attention away from the AKJ towards Nihangs. You even go as far as accusing me of "manipulation". Is this what you call it when someone presents hard facts?

:arrow: Stick to the issue narinder.

Singh 132 presented Kavi Santokh's work as what the AKJ consider as evidence against the Raagmala. :!:

Now, I have questioned why you do not accept what Kavi Santokh Singh said with regards to Guruji drinking Sukha, the authenticity of Nihangs and Akalis. :!:

If you do not wish to submit Kavi Santokh Singh's work as being anti-Raagmala and go back on your discussion, then do so. But, please present your next EVIDENCE. :!:

[Shyam]

Jasdev Singh – so-called jathedar of Taksal wrote:

“Nihung singhs and Taksal have a very tight background because after all the jangs(battles) were finished they came to Damdama Sahib and began to learn more about Gurbani. Dam means to take a breath, so the singhs finally got a breath from all the fighting and began learning more gurbani and this is where Damdami Taksal began. Someone said that Taksal is totally against chatka and sukha, this statment is incorrect. Taksal does not promote chatka nor does it promote sukha but at the same time it does not oppose these issues. Nihungs have always been a part of the panth, Taksal stand on chatka is to do it in necessary situations. I know that singhs in Taksal also do Ragra and make Shardayee on a regular basis but without sukha because there is no need for it. People who say sukha is a drug are wrong because to a certain extent everything is a drug if it is abused. Using Sukha to get high is wrong but to put a few leaves in Shardayee will not give you a high, once again Taksal trys to avoid the use of a sukha though......sorry for the off topic discussion.”

I think Taksal is very confused about its stand on meat. On one hand they say that one should not eat meat and Sant Gurbachan Singh has volumes written and said on it but on the other hand they say that Khalsa is not fully Vaishno i.e. is not fully vegetarian. What kind of stand is this?

It is like saying that having sex outside of marriage is wrong but if you cannot control yourself, then it is okay. Just as this argument is wrong, it is wrong to say that eating meat is okay in some circumstances.

The truth is that Sant Gurbachan Singh was a nihung and he took amrit from nihungs. He was never able to shed his influence of nihungs. Why else did he say that eating meat is okay in some circumstances? He started the Blue dress for in Taksal. If you look at pictures of Sant Sunder Singh he used to wear white clothes and pagg. Sant Bishan Singh Muralewale used to wear the regular turban as opposed to the gol (round) turban that taksalis wear today.

Jasdev Singh writes that it is okay to include few leaves of bhang in shardhaayee. What a manmukhi stand! He says that so long as one does not get high it is okay. By the same logic you can say that so long as one does not get drunk it is okay to drink liquor.

Jasdev Singh you are misled and confused. Don’t confuse naive readers with your confused views.

[Shyam]

Narsingha wrote

“Singh 132 presented Kavi Santokh's work as what the AKJ consider as evidence against the Raagmala.

Now, I have questioned why you do not accept what Kavi Santokh Singh said with regards to Guruji drinking Sukha, the authenticity of Nihangs and Akalis. ”

Singh 132 wrote that the debate of Ragmala has been going on even before Bhai Randhir Singh and this is why he presented the proof of its rejection in Kavi Santokh Singh’s works. This does not mean that one has to accept everything he has written. Don’t get excited Lalleshvari and Narsingha. Nothing he has written goes in your favour.

[Narsingha]

Shyam (a well chosen name), do you also wish to get the Taksal involved by insulting Baba Gurbachan Singh ji?

You fail to forget the AKJ were never able to question the works of Baba Gurbachan Singh ji with regards to the Raagmala. It is only a matter of time before Baba Gurbachan Singh ji's works are translated into English and revealed to the world.

"Singh 132 wrote that the debate of Ragmala has been going on even before Bhai Randhir Singh and this is why he presented the proof of its rejection in Kavi Santokh Singh’s works. This does not mean that one has to accept everything he has written. "

- Shyam

Why would Singh132 present Kavi Santokh's work as "proof of its rejection" and then say you shouldnt accept everything Kavi Santokh Singh has written?

Are we to assume by this statement that....if the AKJ say a portion of text is acceptable because it complies with their thinking, then its automatically legitimate?

And, if it goes against AKJ philosophy then one shouldnt "accept everything he has written"?

Please enlighten the sangat.

It appears that the AKJ find it hard to stick to historical truths in their entirity and simply borrow what they see fit, and dismiss what they find unappealing...

...so these are the Sikhs who claim to follow the "true rehit" (quote from www.akj.org).

[Guest]

the following is an extract about the ragmala debate - the whole document talks about many people who disputed ragmala but im jus postin the bit about bhai randir singhs meetings with sant gurbachan singh bhindrawale - slightly long but do read

.........................................................................................................

intro to document

The basis of every religion is respect and faith. To be a religious person, one must have complete faith in his/her religion. For instance, Muslims believe that on judgment day all Muslims will rise up from their graves and Mohammad will send them to heaven based on their virtues. Christians believe that Jesus resurrected the third day after he was sacrificed on the cross. These people have complete faith no matter what others think. Just like that every Sikh should have complete faith in Gurbani, in each and every word.

Guru Ji says:

O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. (Pg. 308)

A Sikhs should believe in every single word of Guru. Unfortunately, some Sikhs question the Guru and try to show their psuedo intellect. These Sikhs question Raag Maala which was composed by none other than Guru Arjan Dev Ji himself. They have raised many questions regarding Raag Maala the answers to which can be found in the writings from the Damdami Taksaal which was started by Guru Gobind Singh Ji and many other books such as "Raag Maala Parbodh" by Sant Tehal Singh Ji and "Guru Granth Sahib Kosh" by Bhai Veer Singh Ji. On this page, I have written the answers to all the questions I know of. The purpose of this page is to clear the doubts of Sikhs, so we can have complete faith in Guru and unite together. These kinds of questions really divide our community, that's why I decided to write on this topic so that we may become one.

First of all, it is important that we learn from the story of Raam Rai, son of Guru Har Rai Ji. He changed only one word of Gurbani and Guru Ji never wanted to see his face again. He was kicked out and was not accepted by the Guru. It clearly shows the consequences of changing Gurbani. If Guru Ji did not accept his own son then why would Guru Ji accept those who do not believe everything in Gurbani. In the first two centuries of Khalsa, no Sikh ever questioned Guru but then suddenly in the beginning of the 20th century some Sikhs started questioning Guru Ji. They lost their faith and the only thing they had was their pseudo intellect which is an act of stupidity in Sikhism. Showing smartness in front of Guru is to try to contradict Sikhi.

........................................................................................................

extract about bhai randir singh

Bhai Randhir Singh also didn't believe in Raag Maala. There are a few related reasons that may have aid his belief. First, he took Amrit along with Maulvi Karim Baksh and his family Teja Singh Bhasoria who didn't believe in Raag Maala. Bhai Randhir Singh took Amrit in village called Bakkapur near Falour which is well stated in his book "Jail Letters". People question that only Panj Pyare have the right to give Amrit not one person. I do not mean Teja Singh directly gave Bhai Sahib Amrit but Panj Pyare were from Teja Singh's school and organization "Panch Khand" and they told their own Rehat Maryada.

Second, Bhai Randhir Singh believed that Gur Mantra was "Wahguru" not "Waheguru" because that's what he was told by Teja Singh. Some people ask about written proof. As I have said earlier Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha was associated with Teja Singh also and he played a great role in writing literature for Teja Singh's organization. Teja Singh was a preacher and Kahan Singh was a writer. In Mahan Kosh Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha wrote GurMantar as "Wahguru" not Waheguru. Read about Amrit in Mahan Kosh and you will see this. This proves that Teja Singh believed that MoolMantar was Wahguru which he told Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh.

Bhai Sahib was a complete Gursikh but he was also a human. Humans make mistakes. As Gurbani says "Bhulan Andar Sab Ko Abhul Guru Kartaar". Only Guru never forgets and makes mistakes. This panktee clearly tells us that only Guru Sahibs do not make mistakes. Bhai Sahib Ji was a human being just like other GurSikhs like Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwale, Bhai Veer Singh Ji etc. I am not comparing each other. They were all GurSikhs but Bhai Sahib Ji made a mistake by not believing in Raag Maala which he corrected afterwards. But I would like to ask one question. Bhai Sahib Ji wrote many books. Does he ever mention in any of his books that Raag Maala is not Gurbani? I don't know any. So I ask anti-Raag Maala for written proof that Bhai Sahib Ji didn't believe in Raag Maala.

Bhai Sahib Ji believed in Raag Maala and Gur Mantra "Waheguru" after finding out about anti Sikh activities of Teja Singh. After Bhai Sahib's release, Babu Teja Singh tried to meet his old friend after twenty years and came to his house to resurrect their old friendship. Bhai Sahib was not there at that moment. When he came to know later of Babu Ji's visit, Bhai Sahib wrote him a letter politely declining to meet him.

"Babu Teja Singh Ji, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. You, dear Sir, have come to see this humble servant of the Panth after one fifth of a century, i.e., 20 years. I was no less eager to have the chance of meeting with you and talking together. But I was deeply pained when I learnt that you have been excommunicated from the Panth by a congregation at Sri Akaal Takhat. What is even more distressing, you continue to disregard the authority of the Panth. It is now my request that you should be obedient to the Command of the Guru Panth and return to its shelter. Then we shall meet like brothers. It is my hope that you will accede to my request and thereby please the hearts of all of us. I am confident that you will not defy the Guru Panth and will abide by the tradition coming down through generations. Your sincere well wisher (s) Randheer Singh"

Furthermore, when Bhai Randhir Singh met Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji on 19th February 1960 in Ludhiana, Bhai Randhir Singh Ji said in his own words that he believed in Raag Maala after reading spiritual meanings of Raag Maala provided by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji. Bhai Sahib Ji admitted that he was mistaken (Read biography of Sant Kartar Singh Ji Bhindranwale).

Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji wrote in "Gurbani Paath Darpan" that in village Ghungraane Kartar Singh was reading Guru Granth Sahib and Arjan Singh was doing the translation. Bhai Randheer Singh Ji was sitting in Sadh Sangat too. Many other famous Sikhs like Jathedar Gurdial Singh Boparai, Sant Ajaib Saingh and Sant Hazoora Singh were also sitting there with Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale. Sant Ji wrote that when Kartar Singh reached Raag Maala Arjan Singh asked if he should continue translating Raag Maala. In reply Jathedar Gurdial Singh Boparai said "If I was in your place I would've read it by now." Then Arjan Singh translated Raag Maala and Bhog ceremony took place after reading Raag Maala in the presence of Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh Ji. There are many other incidents which show that Raag Maala was read in the presence of Bhai Sahib and he did not leave the Sangat. But now some ignorant people stick their fingers in their ears and run out of the Gurudwara when the hear Raag Maala being read.

These stories are ignored by anti Raag Maala people. They say someone made them up. They only say it because these true stories don't go in their favor. They are not brave enough to accept the truth. Just like Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhai Jodh Singh also accepted that Raag Maala is Gurbani after seeing the Bir Sahib at Kartarpur Sahib. Bhai Jodh Singh was Principal of Khalsa College, president of Chief Khalsa Diwan and principal of Sikh Missionary College. Bhai Jodh Singh's name is ignored by anti Raag Maala people because he accepted it as Gurbani.

Madan Singh have written many wrong things about Taksaal and about Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji. He writes that

" Jathedar Bhai Mohan Singh Nagoke summoned a joint meeting of the saints and scholars in 1945 AD at Sri Akal Takhat Sahib with the sole objective of resolving the issue once and for all. Jathedar Nagoke himself performed the initial ardas (prayer) and affirmed that if it is proved after mutual discussion and debate that Ragmala is not Gurbani, it would never be read at the Akal Takhat Sahib. The pro-Ragmala group could not give clear cut proof to establish that Ragmala is Gurbani. They walked out in disgust. Thereupon Jathedar Nagoke declared that in the interest of maintaining Panthic unity the reading of Ragmala was to be optional."

The above lines are 100% false because the meeting never took place. I have talked to many Sikhs who stayed with Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji and they all said the meeting was never held at Akaal Takhat Sahib to discuss Raag Maala. If pro-Raag Maala people couldn't give a proof then why didn't Jathedaar and other Jethbandis decide to take it out and declare it as not part of Guru Granth Sahib and make it "not Gurbani"? Why was it made optional? Had the meeting taken place the Jathedaar would have released a Hukamnama declaring Raag Maala as not part of Guru Granth Sahib. The meeting never took place. He further writes:

"After a few days, Master Tara Singh, who was President of Shiromani Akali Dal, sent a special emissary – Giani Lal Singh of Sikh Missionary College Amritsar (ex-chairman Punjab Public Service Commission Patiala) to Giani Gurbachan Singh to ascertain as to whether he would be abiding by the decree of Akal Takhat Sahib. Giani Lal Singh returned after a week’s stay at Bhinder Khalan, with a written message that Jatha Bhindran bows before the decree of Akal Takhat Sahib."

Companions of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji told me that Laal Singh was sent to get signature of Sant Ji on SGPC Rehat Maryada. SGPC wanted Sant Ji to prove their version of Rehat Maryada which Sant Ji denied and Laal Singh returned a week later empty handed. Sant Ji never raised the issue of Raag Maala because he never wanted Sikhs to fight and never challenged the authority of Akaal Takhat Sahib although he never agreed with it. But even if Sant Ji agreed with it then why would he write books on Raag Maala and provide Sikh Panth with such beautiful spiritual meanings of Raag Maala that no one could ever come up with. Sant Jernail Singh Ji believed in Raag Maala but Sant Ji punished his nephew Swaran Singh by for reading Raag Maala at Akaal Takhat Sahib. This shows that Sant Ji never wanted to force anything on anyone unlike anti-Raag Maala people who always tried to force their beliefs on other Sikhs.

Anti-Raag Maala people don't bow to Akaal Takhat's decisions. Raag Maala is being read now at Akaal Takhat Sahib and anti-Raag Maala people don't. WHY? They say it was not being read before. As I have said earlier that Raag Maala was being read at Akaal Takhat under control of Nihang Jathebandis until 1849. Later British took over and control of Gurdwaras was given to Brahmins. That time British bought some fake Sikhs and had them start this controversy and question Raag Maala. It was a tactic of British to weak the Sikh power which is derived from Gurbani and Gurdwaras. Raag Maala is Gurbani.

[narinder]

This is nothing but hearsay. There is no evidence, proof, etc. You need to stop believing what someone told and use Gurbani as a reference. Most taksalis say loads of things, they should only be taken with a pinch of salt.

I notice how Narsingha again only wants his agenda, and keeps keeping away from the essential questions. You still all just talk of this person said, and that person did that.

Guru Arjan Dev ji was a master of music, just like everything else he did. He created some of his own raags, he was so good. He knew everything. If raagmala is bani, how did he manage get the raags mixed up. He did not make any mistakes. That is why he was the Guru. How come some raags are in raagmala, and not in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, others not.

You state Guru Arjan Dev Ji wrote raagmala. I challenge Narsingha, and any other nihang to provide any prove whatsoever where it clearly proves raagmala was written by Guru Arjan dev Ji?

[Guest Javanmard]

dear Narinder ever heard of the conceptr l'art pour l'art. Think about Ragmala in that context.

love

[Guest]

narinder this is another extract from the same document

Some Sikh brothers question that Siri Raag comes first in Guru Granth Sahib but Raag Bhairo comes first in Raag Maala?

Guru Ji himself answered this question. During the time of Guru Ji there were two main Sampardas or schools. One was "Vaishno" and other was "Shaaiv". Guru Ji declared Siri Raag amongst all other Ragas and Bhai Gurdas Ji supported that. Siri Raag has special significance. For instance by singing Raag, candles are lit themselves. By singing Malaar Raag, clouds cover the sky and rain starts falling. One time Bhai Hakko Ji did Kirtan in Darbar Sahib and it is said that the sky was covered with clouds but rain didn't fall. On this Bhai Hakko Ji said, we don't have complete faith in Gurbani. If there was Bhai Mardana Ji in my place it sure would have rained but due to lack of complete faith there was no rain. Siri Raag is held as most important because if sung with full devotion it has the power to rejuvenate anything (it can breath life into the dead). According to Shaaiv samparda Bhairo Raag comes first.

The reason Bhairo Raag is placed first in Raag Maala is because it is sung in the morning. Bhairo Raag is the first Raag that is sung in the morning. All other Ragas are sung afterwards. Since Bhairo Raag is sung in Amrit Wela, it is put in the first place because Amrit Wela has a lot of significance in Sikhism. According to Guru Ji Siri Raag is placed first but showing respect to other sampardas and respecting their beliefs, Guru Ji accepted both ideas because they both don't show anything wrong. Also, Gurbani is written in six Ragas and in those Ragas, Bhairo comes first and Siri Raag is fifth. Since Siri Raag is held most significant, it was written first. But Raag Maala is like "Table of Contents". It is a list of Ragas in order. Raag Bhairo comes first and Siri Raag comes fifth. This is the order they come in the list. So Raag Bhairo was written first by order and Siri Raag on fifth place.

Some Sikhs question that Raag Maajh and Tukhari is not in Raag Maala but it is in Gurbani. Why?

Guru Ji had many smart people with him who were great singers and knew all the ragas. Guru Ji himself was expert in singing ragas. When Guru Ji went to the grandson of Guru Amar Das Ji to take Gurbani Pothis, Guru Ji sang at his door in ragas. There are many ragas and not all of them are in Guru Granth Sahib. All ragas are sung according to the time. Ragis often sing by mixing many ragas. Raag Maajh is a mixture of five ragas: Sorath, Bilawal, Sarang, Dhanasri and Natt. These five ragas combined make Raag Maajh and these five ragas are included in Raag Maala. Some people call Raag Maajh a Raagni. Since it is from Maajha country it is called Maajh. Raag Maajh is considered a Raagni in Gurmat. Tukhari is mixture of ragas too. It is mixture of Bhairo, Ramkali, and Todi. It is started by Gurmat Sangeet (Music) and is not included in other music schools. Another thing there are many ragas that are not in Guru Granth Sahib, should they not be included too? If Guru Ji included more names of ragas in Raag Maala then why does it hurt people? Names of ragas are put before Gurbani but the fact is that the names are there because of Gurbani not Gurbani is there because of Ragas. Guru Ji sang Gurbani in Ragas according to time and month and in whichever Raag it was sung, Guru Ji wrote it in Guru Granth Sahib. Gurmat Sangeet accepts only six pure ragas which are included in Raag Maala and Gurbani was composed in only two of these ragas. Again not that Guru Ji purposely didn't compose Gurbani in other four Ragas, it was because of time. when it was not the right time to sing a Raag, Guru Ji didn't sing it and therefore, Gurbani was not composed in that Raag. Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a musical book that explains all ragas. Raag Maala includes Ragas which are accepted by Gurmat Sangeet whether or not Gurbani was composed in those ragas but we can still sing it.

[Shyam]

Narinder is right. There is no proof who wrote Ragmala. How do you know Guru Arjun Dev ji wrote Ragmala? Provide proof who wrote it.

Ragmala is not bani. It is part of a pornographic love story of called Madhanal Kamkandhla. Ragmala is part of that story. All scholars agree to this. Ragmala is not opposed by akj alone. Most scholars oppose it. The meanings that Sant Gurbachan Singh did do not make any sense.

Narsingha writes that he wants to translate Sant Gurbachan Singh's work on Ragmala in English. Please go ahead as the world will find out the truth then. Ragmala is meaningless. It has not spiritual meaning. It is simply an index of Raags, that are not even in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee.

As for writing on Bhai Randhir Singh, it is all false. It is pro-Ragmalees doing propaganda - a jhooth.

They say that Bhai Randhir Singh had a hard time in his last moments. How about Sant Gurbachan Singh and Sant Kartar Singh? Did they have easy death? Why did Sant Kartar Singh stay in hospital for one month and died there? Because he was reading Ragmala? Death is in hukam of God. All this speculation of why Bhai Sahib was sick in his last moments is nothing but false. If Bhai Randhir Singh was sick in his last days, remember that Sant Sunder Singh too was very sick and so was Sant Gurbachan Singh. Sant Kartar Singh had accident and died in hospital after one month.

So pro-Ragmalees, stop the propaganda against Bhai Randhir Singh.

[Guest Javanmard]

what is pornography dear Jassa? why use a 19th century concept for a medievla indian composition?

[Guest]

Shyam: Sant gurbhachan singh maharaj ji death was an easy death. Which he choosed himself while doing katha.

Here is the refrence:

Audio Tape by Sant baba mann singh ji: Anmolak Yaadien (Tribute to bhramgyanis).. you can get the audio tape from the FTP server i setted up.

Also in the same ftp server set up I have pages 52 pages long damdami takshal document on Ragmalla is bani.

Here is the ftp detalils:

ftp://24.43.187.27

username: vaheguroo

pass: akaal

enjoy.

[Shyam]

Read Gurmukh Jeevan by Kirpal Singh. He writes of long illness of Sant jee. I should mention here that Sant jee to get sick was just normal. It was will of God. What I am trying to say is that the stories associated with Bhai Randhir Singh jee’s illness are white lies. They say that he got sick because he did not read ragmala. The only problem Bhai Sahib had was his legs and that was because he sustained tortures for 16 years in jail.

I don’t believe that fake sant maan singh.

[Singh132]

Ok Narsingh,

Same option for you: you accept all of Kavi Santokh Singh's material or none of it. So which will it be?

Ragmala was a hot topic of debate because Ragmala was added to beeRs at such a late date. It was something Kavi Santokh Singh had first hand knowledge of and he condemned its addition.

Was Kavi Santokh Singh around when Guru jee supposedly took cannabis? Was he a witness? And according to this, Goolaba was the first Akali! Wow. So are you trying to say Guru Sahib was an "amlee" or drug addict? Kavi Santokh Singh wrote all this stuff from information heard 4/5th hand. He wrote on ragmala first hand. Which is more reliable?

[Singh132]

Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh jee died peacefully and gave everyone his fateh and then took his swaas to dasam duaar with clear repition of gurmatnar a couple times. He had told those around him that the "sangat was calling him" and left. It was by no means a hard death. All this garbage of KeeRay in his mouth is utter nonsense.

Baba Gurbachan Singh jee passed away at night. He had heart palpitations and desired to be taken inside. He too died in a Gursikh way by giving everyone his Fateh. He did NOT die doing Katha.

[some singh]

I've just reading this forum. Interesting.

Narsingh, you really have a way with words.

Reading singh 132's point about kavi santokh singh, I got a totally different understanding than Narsingh. The kavi santokh singh reference was just to show that the raag malaa debate has been going on long before AKJ. It wasn't to say that the kavi santokh singh reference is the main point or even close to being the main point in them not believing in raag malaa.

My own parents were and are very pro raag malaa and always taught me this. Then I started meeting some sikh missionaries in the community and they used to question raag maala (these people had nothing to do with akj and I didn't even know about AKJ much at that point). They brought up all sorts of points against raag maala, and used to mention how scholars like Kahn Singh Nabha were against raag malaa. When I asked my parents to clarify these points, or anyone else in the community, they never could. They'd just tell me stories about so and so not believing and turn it into a group or personality thing.

The same thing seems to be going on here. So and so read it, so and so didn't. If all the pro raag maala people want the entire panth to accept raag malaa (and the entire panth doesn't accept it yet, as I believe it's not currently even read at akaal takht) or at least convince people like myself, who would be more than willing to read it if someone showed us that it is guru saahib's baanee, the solution is simple. Just answer all the questions raised by various scholars. Don't give stories about so and so reading it or not reading it, who really cares about that? That's all that this thread seems to be doing, talking about jathas and personalities. Stop playing word games and trying to simply win a little debate and actually answer the concerns raised about raag maala over the last couple of centuries. That would actually serve to bring about panthic unity.

[some singh]

Jasdev Singh,

while reading your post, a question came to mind (completely unrelated to raag mallaa). You say a few leaves of sukha aren't going to make you high, so it isn't that big a deal. That seems to make sense. But then I thought, what about alchohol? A single can of beer isn't going to make someone like me drunk or even give me a 'buzz'. According to some people, it isn't really even a bujjer kurehit, as only tobacco is apparently mentioned in old rehitnamaas. As you seem to be have some sort of official standing within the taksaal, I want your official taksaal response.

According to taksaal rules and your logic on the use of a few sukhaa leaves, would it be okay for me as an amritdharee to drink a beer now and then? Or to use a bit of wine in cooking occasionally? Some friends of mine used to use wine in cooking for the flavour. I don't think it could make you drunk. If some taksaalee singhs were at my house or if I was at chowk mehtaa, would they let me put some wine in the sabjee? Not for medicinal use or anything, just for flavour or some beer as a thirst quencher on a hot day. Jasdev Singh, if you could respond, I would really appreciate it.

[Jasdev Singh]

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

DAMDAMI TAKSAL SINGHS DO NOT DO CHATKA OR SUKHA!

Damdami Taksal is against the use of meat for the sheer pleasure of taste, but if it comes down to surivial theirs nothing wrong in eating it, this is said in Amrit Sanchars and is written in Khalsa Jeevan. We do not oppose Nihung marayda as they are a part of the panth. You will never see Damdami Taksal put down any jathey bandi that is a part of the panth, as some of you are doing on this message board.

"Most taksalis say loads of things, they should only be taken with a pinch of salt- narinder"

If you wish to slander me then go ahead but do not bring Taksals name into it. Taksal is willing to discuss not fight any topic you bring up, you choose the time and place. We do not make cowardly comments on the net.

"Baba Gurbachan Singh started the Blue dress for in Taksal. If you look at pictures of Sant Sunder Singh he used to wear white clothes and pagg. Sant Bishan Singh Muralewale used to wear the regular turban as opposed to the gol (round) turban that taksalis wear today.-shyam"

Inncorrect statement, please ask senior Taksal singhs. Shows how intelligent people are, they make their conclusions from pictures.

"Jasdev Singh you are misled and confused. Don’t confuse naive readers with your confused views.-shyam"

"Jasdev Singh – so-called jathedar of Taksal-shyam"

I do not claim myself as jathedar, so stop tryin to cause trouble. As for me being mislead and confused, I am still a learner....i have not obtained brahm gian like some of the people that post on this site. If you wish to do veechar then come, Damdami Taksal singhs are waiting, pick a time and place.

I think we should all learn to respect each other. Most of the people anti nihung havnt even chilled with nihungs, vice versa for akjs. Every jatha has its good people and its trouble makers. To me it seems that all this fighting and bashing is personal stuff and these ignorant immature people are involving jathay bandian to cause trouble and hatred between each other. I think everyone should take out some time and do sangat of every jathay bandi, then you will see the big picture of ekta(unity). I have chilled with Nihangs in India as well as Akj(India and abroad) both groups have chardi kala singh(naam abiyasees). I know for a fact that India Nihangs are not only about Chatka/Sukha, they do their amrit vela and madd Dasam di Bani. I cannot speak the same for the uk Nihungs as I have never stayed with them. '

"According to taksaal rules and your logic on the use of a few sukhaa leaves, would it be okay for me as an amritdharee to drink a beer now and then?"

First let me make clear that Taksal does not do Sukha, 2) you should try not to twist the statement. Everything is a drug to a certain extent. If you leave Goor(Rass from sugar cane) for a couple weeks it becomes desi liquor but Goor itself is not. If you manipulate grapes they become wine. Whenever you manipulate something it can become a nasha to a certain extent.

I would request all the singhs to stay together, instead of bashing each other. Why not use all this energy and anger towards all these fake gurus out there. We waste our time fighting each other. Discussion is a good thing but bashind is plain out ignorant. All you ignornant immature youth should learn from your elders and stop causing problems. Stick to the discussion of Rag Mala, that is an important issue as it is a part of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Jasdev Singh

Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Gatka Akhara

Damdami Taksal Toronto

Jatha Bhindra Metha

[shindasingh]

Waheguru Je Ka Khalsa Waheguru Je Ke Fateh

Raag Maala is a composition of Sri Guru Arjan Dev Sahib Ji. For those who say Munadavni is the end of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I assume you do not read the salok that follows it either. If you do, your only practicing hypocrisy to what you say.

Sant Baba Jarnail Singh and Sant Baba Kartaar Singhs Katha on Sri Raag Maala is available at http://www.gursikhijeevan.com

I am of the beleif that Bhai Randhir Singh Ji believed in Sri Raag Maala in the late years of their life. As from my understanding Bhai Sahib, spoke very little in his last few years, for this reason may or may not have told those members of the Jatha if Raag Maala was bani.

Also a question I have is whether those Singhs who are of Bhai Sahibs time, if they themselves where in Bhai Randhir Singhs prescence at the time around or near his death. I understand that in Bhai Sahibs early years they dissmissed Raag Maala completly, however no mention of not believing in Raag Maala is given in any of Bhai Randhir Singhs books.

As per Sant Mahpursh Bhram Giani Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh's arth on Raag Maala my request to those who say these arth made no sense is if they could please post which aspect or what part of the arths made no sense to them as only then can such ignorances be overcome.

Forgive me if I leave anyone feeling insulted with this post it was not the intent.

Waheguru Je Ka Khalsa Waheguru Je Ke Fateh

[Guest Javanmard]

If AKJ is not against Ragmala how come these people have about 5 birs of Adi Granth without Ragmala in the UK then? How come they use these birs? How come they try to hide it away from anyone else?

[Mr §ingh]

How can u prove ur statement?

Nice post SHinda SIngh

[Guest Javanmard]

I have got my sources which I cannot disclose but those who know that I know don't know how I know that I know they don't know that I know...

capice :wink:

[Mr §ingh]

wow

ur disclosed source is indeed a very

Reliable source :roll:

[Guest Javanmard]

Well unlike some people on this forum (and I am not talking about anyone in particular) I really don't like to disclose the identity of people who could encounter serious problems due to my disclosure of such informations. I respect peoples right for a protected and safe private life. Last thing I would like to see is these people getting attacked by some heretic.

I have been betrayed by members (yes even moderators who I thought I could trust) of this forum who did not have any scrupules to hand private information about me to AKj and other people. As I do not wish to do to others what I have been through myself I will not reveal my source.

[Mr §ingh]

if it is so

the is this really a good place to hang around on then ?:roll:

[SAadmin]

Mr singh, Please be neutral in your discussion.

I have catch ya few times. You have personal grudge against lalleshvari.

Either you can quit moderating and continue to have personal grudge against lalleshvari or reform yourself as moderator.

Because first rule for moderating.

Leave your hatred aside and treat everyone equally.