Narsingha Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 Sri Akal Ji Sahai, Namaste, Salaam and Greetings... An Introduction to Sanatan (traditional) Sikhism www.sarbloh.info has now been updated! New sections include... Nanak - That which is not many, but Ekh (One) Naam Jaap - Contemplation The 5 Spheres of Spiritual Elevation Amrit Vela - The Ambrosial Time Naam Simran Sanatan Sikhs and 'Hinduism' Afraid of the Truth? The Gurmukh - One who follows the path of Dharam (righteousness) Questions and Answers Akal Ustat - Questions Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji put to the student of Dharam Also included are over 400 fully interactive photographs, paintings, sketches, engravings and manuscripts. This website is the LARGEST of its kind that covers Sanatan Sikhism, the true form of Sikhism that existed prior to the arrival of the British Raj within India. From the website: ----- Why do ancient Sikh texts near unanimously say Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh decapitated goats and not Singhs at time of Khalsa initiation? ----- How come the European harmonium has replaced traditional Sikh classical musical instruments in Sikh temples? ----- If only Khalsa initiated Sikhs can be true Sikhs, as modern Tat Khalsa mentality Sikhs contend, then, how do we account for the innumerable Sahejdhari (non-Khalsa) Brahmgiani (spiritual accomplished) Udasi, Nirmala and Seva Panthi Sikhs such as Bhai Khanaiya, Baba Gurbax Das, Baba Seva Das, Bhai Addan Shah, Bhai Vasti Ram etc in Sikh history? ----- Why do the ancient Sikh historical texts such as Sarbloh Guru Durbar, Gurprtap Suraj Prakash, Naveen Panth Prakash etc. speak of 'Treh Mudra' (three adornments - kard, kachera and kesh) instead of the '5 Ks'* (* The 5 K - kesh (unshorn hair), kara (steel/iron war bracelet), kirpan/kard (dagger), kanga (wooden comb) and kachera (breeches))? ----- Why is the wording of 'Mool Mantra' (Sikh fundamental creed) given in the original source books of Sikh scripture, ‘Mohan Vali Pothi’a’ (compilation of the first and second Sanatan Sikh Gurus' works) is different than in present day accepted Sikh 'Mool Mantra'? ----- Coming soon: Gurmat Sangeet - Sikh devotional music in Raags (Indian Musical measures) The Nirmalas (intellectuals) - the philosophy Multimedia Gallery (audio and video) Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa uniform, and its significance For more information, please visit www.sarbloh.info or email info@sarbloh.info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 i always thought the 5 tiers also applied to the 5 tiers of heaven also after mukti - dharam khand was for bhagats etc gyan khand for good khalsa sikhs saram khand was for spiritaully high sikhs etc karam khand was for shaheeds n sach khand was for saints and the gurus etc is that right or am i totally wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhsingh Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 omg not this hindu/sikh mixed together again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undergroundsikhi Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 paranoia :roll: look into the daily nitnem guru ji mentions "hindu refernces" Shiva,bramha etc as examples, and then sarbloh.info have just put pictures to the words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 anyone able 2 answer my question also......on that site it says guru gobind singh kept wanting to make chandi appear.....thats rubbish rite? is it connected to the story where the brahmins tried to make her appear and he proved them wrong etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 just a small question, on the site it states the gurus why isnt the shri guru granth sahib stated as a guru??? instead after "akali guru gobind singh" they have "akali nihang khalsa" :? :? and also... "u shouldnt judge no one, god is the only person who can judge" something along those lines..... but then the same site goes on to say that "some foolish sikhs" - i tried to find the same quote again but i cant now :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undergroundsikhi Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Good points Narsingha any comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted May 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 We assume (maybe incorrectly) that people actually read whats on the websites and posses some basic logic and reason, and dont have to be tutored like little children. Unlike the majority of Sikh-related websites that seem to be re-inventing the wheel, www.sarbloh.info has been designed to pormote thought and vanquish ignorance. The fact that all 3 sacred scriptures are refered to as GURU may be a subtle hint to the fact that their status is GURU. There is also a glossary in case people miss out on this... Also, we assume people will read the numerous quotes eluding to the fact that the 3 sacred scriptures are seen as Guru by Sanatan Sikhs, for example, those found on: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/durbar_menu.html ...some have even been highlighted in bold for clarity. The 3 sacred scriptures have been allocated separate sections for clarity and as these sections will be added to on a regular basis it only seems logical. Just because they have been placed in a separate section does not reduce their importance. In fact, it highlights their role within Sikhi. Also, pointing out the stupidity or ignorance of individuals does not mean you have judged them. It may be an idea for you to start learning to distinguish between "to judge" and "to state an opinion based on fact". Considering the petty comments against the website, and it seems people seem to be missing out over 99% of what has actually been presented there....some, even go to lengths as calling the site "anti-Sikh" simply because it does not conform to their own narrow-minded facist views of Sikhi. Nonetheless, this is expected considering the high level of ignorance amongst Sikhs today in general (...and this isnt "judging"..its an opinion based on the kind of comments we are seeing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undergroundsikhi Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 :shock: ...........hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted May 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Underground... you may wish to check http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/guru_menu.html ...where is is clearly stated that Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji vested Guruship to Adi Guru Durbar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undergroundsikhi Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Clear as mud.......... :arrow: """After the Tenth Living Guru had departed this earth, the Guruship was vested by him to Adi Guru Durbar (also known as Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji within modern mainstream Sikhism)."""" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 We assume (maybe incorrectly) that people actually read whats on the websites and posses some basic logic and reason, and dont have to be tutored like little children. Unlike the majority of Sikh-related websites that seem to be re-inventing the wheel, www.sarbloh.info has been designed to pormote thought and vanquish ignorance. The fact that all 3 sacred scriptures are refered to as GURU may be a subtle hint to the fact that their status is GURU. There is also a glossary in case people miss out on this... Also, we assume people will read the numerous quotes eluding to the fact that the 3 sacred scriptures are seen as Guru by Sanatan Sikhs, for example, those found on: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/durbar_menu.html ...some have even been highlighted in bold for clarity. The 3 sacred scriptures have been allocated separate sections for clarity and as these sections will be added to on a regular basis it only seems logical. Just because they have been placed in a separate section does not reduce their importance. In fact, it highlights their role within Sikhi. Also, pointing out the stupidity or ignorance of individuals does not mean you have judged them. It may be an idea for you to start learning to distinguish between "to judge" and "to state an opinion based on fact". Considering the petty comments against the website, and it seems people seem to be missing out over 99% of what has actually been presented there....some, even go to lengths as calling the site "anti-Sikh" simply because it does not conform to their own narrow-minded facist views of Sikhi. Nonetheless, this is expected considering the high level of ignorance amongst Sikhs today in general (...and this isnt "judging"..its an opinion based on the kind of comments we are seeing) is it too hard for u to give a simple reply without goin into "ignorance and facism" u are very quick to judge my friend firstly - did i say anything bad about the site??... well then why do u decide to get all defensive?.... i like ur little word play tho.. when YOU wish to "judge" someone its not bad... its seen as an "opinion" :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted May 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Who's getting defensive? The websites are there regardless of what attacks it may receive. If I was judging you, then I'd follow the way of mainstream Sikhs and call you names, have you declared a heretic or a traitor to Sikhism, and burn everything you owned each time you said anything against Sanatan Sikhs... ...yet this is not the case, so take a chill pill... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 come one someone answer my question!!!!! are there 5 tiers of HEAVEN also....dharam khand at bottom and saach khand at top? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaaM Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Considering the petty comments against the website, and it seems people seem to be missing out over 99% of what has actually been presented there....some, even go to lengths as calling the site "anti-Sikh" simply because it does not conform to their own narrow-minded facist views of Sikhi. Nonetheless, this is expected considering the high level of ignorance amongst Sikhs today in general (...and this isnt "judging"..its an opinion based on the kind of comments we are seeing) Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. Narsingha Ji, it somewhat amuses me when you say "narrow-minded facist views of Sikhi" and other comments on the same level, as it has been mentioned a number of times that various aspects of information that has been presented on the site (sarbloh.info) has been kept secret over the years. Now when, after all this time something is presented to people/sangat, that is not really in harmony with everything they have always known about Sikhi, it is to be expected that there will be some retaliation/misunderstandings/etc. Just because someone does not agree/understand with what is stated does not make him or her narrow minded. On the other hand, if someone does not understand something and asks a question it does not imply that the person wants to be spoon-fed or 'tutored like children'. You are doing amazing sewa by finally proving information that has been kept secret over time, what would make it even better is if there was compassion to go with it when someone asks a question. A question may seem silly to someone who has the knowledge, but to the person that asks, to have it answered with compassion and understanding is what is going to clear up all this, not by being sarcastic or 'taking the piss' I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, but have merely stated my views. Phul Chuk Maaf. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted May 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Just as Seva Panthis, Nirmalas and Udhasis are pacifist in nature and non-confrontational, Nihangs are not. "taking the piss" and sarcasm is inherent within Akali Nihang spirit and although it goes against the modern Sikh ideal of being politically correct and "humble", it is nonetheless a tradition...something that has to be kept alive. Godbless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaaM Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Just as Seva Panthis, Nirmalas and Udhasis are pacifist in nature and non-confrontational, Nihangs are not. "taking the piss" and sarcasm is inherent within Akali Nihang spirit and although it goes against the modern Sikh ideal of being politically correct and "humble", it is nonetheless a tradition...something that has to be kept alive. Godbless Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. Ok, that does explain afew things, I did not realise that sarcasm is inherent and a tradition. Though abit of pyaar here and there won't hurt anyone Rab Rakha Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2003 Report Share Posted May 31, 2003 I have surfed the whole sarbloh site.. I must say i m very impressed with the paintings more imporant the writings. It is such a informative site. I feel like i m in the guroo's time where islam, sikhism and hinduism are all connected together by lookin at the site. Obviously, mainstream will not like the hindu lords on the site. I wonder why?? They are very insecure about bhramanic influence on nihangs. Also to that viewers who think that site is there to dissolve sikhism in hinduism. its wrong. Those are the facts thats what snatan sikhs suppose to be. I read the post while back and it really make sense.. one of the member was on about hindu lords in different yugs but none were in kalyug. Sikh Gurus were there in kalyug... so here is the connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 1 thing i did find funny was the claim that if u didnt have the dasam granth present at amrit sanskar ur amrit is invalid....lol that means the original panj pyare werent the real deal "snaatan singh akali nihung khalsa amrit-dhari sant sipahi" LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawrof Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 sat, sri akaal. I'd like to say a hello to everyone as this is my first time writing. Khalsa soulja, The point that you made about having dasam granth, dasam guru darbar, or whichever name you would like to address the compilation of guru gobind singh's baani, during amrit sanchar/sanskar is very valid. My understanding of why it is required boils down to the collective choice the panth made at that time. IF (since I cannot verify by any sources apart from second/third/fourth hand knowledge) the presence of dasam granth during the amrit sanchaar was mandated by the "panth" during an era of history....then, it makes sense as to why it should be present now. The view of the nihangs is that the "panthic" authority was vested in the buddha dal. That being the case, anything they decree would be implemented. In the old days, one would have to be a very thorough, articulate, highly educated, skillful, and disciplined individual to head of the panth. (if anyone begs to differ, that is your choice. I stand firm on the belief that our jathedars were never buffoons who just fought their way to power). my thesis (overall point): dasam granth was and is mandated by the "panth" (buddha dal) to be present during amrit sanchaar. Things have changed and the panth is currently NOT the buddha dal for modern day sikhs. The only way this can be refuted is if a) it is proven through outside sources that amrit sanchar (after gobind singh's death) did NOT have dasam granth present providing there is a date of inception that it can be proved against. the buddha dal was never the panth c) The buddha dal GAVE its authority to the singh sabha/sgpc. Lets face it, nihang singhs have stayed firm to their faith over the years. d) the extent of the authority that gobind singh had passed onto the guru panth has been overextended and abused by the panthic leaders who have been in power. As for oral tradition, well identifying with one group for acceptance, or for the sake of not being categorized into another is still cultural because there are mannerisms and behaviours which are accepted and practiced in a group.... a "group" can never escape conformity (that is why I firmly believe that the guru-sikh relationship is meant for us, as individuals, and god). And that is the reason why no group can claim god to theirselves. Yet, to get things done and move beyond our ego's, we must learn to work with others (in the true sense of those words). as for oral tradition, well just because it has been said doesn't make it right. It has merit as do other things, *such as written proof*...yet even written documents are discarded as well. anyone with any influencial capacity can captivate mass acceptance, and hence a partial truth is accepted. my plea to all my sikh brothers and sisters (whether you are pre-singh sabha or post-singh sabha, or somewhere in between) is that you create your own relationship with your guru. In doing so, try to understand what guru ji taught us (through example and methodology... ie, santhya, raag, scripture etc etc). Let us come to our own decisions and accept and respect each other for "uddham" (effort) as opposed to tangible ritualism etc etc... or basic adherence to a "philosophy" for doing things. ps: On a surface level, the argument posed by sarbloh.info, from my understanding, isn't we are right! you are wrong!... it is to get people to think. The method in which it is done is to show people that sikhi is beyond any cultural affiliation, and that it has become marginalized by those who think that way. The reason why I believe it has been presented the way it has is to let the majority of message board users (who are usually affiliated with one group or another) that the tolerance level of sikhi in the past is different to what it is now. I don't believe the following has been said by anyone, but my belief is that the truth doesn't need to be purified. Hence, the "tat" maryada (preached by any group) is baseless UNLESS it helps with one's sikhya (understanding and control of 5 bikaars). try it and see, if it works ...kirpa. If not, then don't bash the rehit and lose faith... take it easy everyone, and I'll post again. sat, sri akal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted June 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Your thesis would carry more weight if it actually had some historical facts and scripture to back up your points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawrof Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Narsingha, fair enough, Give me some time to sift through gurbilas shemi, dasmi, suraj prakaash and pracheen panth prakaash. Let me clarify that my thesis started from where I said thesis, and ended just prior to me addressing scenario's a) - d). I have been told that there are many persian texts available from around the mid 1800's. If we pooled our resources as a community and read what was written, it would benefit all as the information would have the bias of the authors (as opposed to the bias of interpreters within the present day sikhfold)... well its inevitable everyone will read and extract what they wish from it. I came across a very interesting article, it was in a book called tribes of the sindh. I have the details on the author etc. on some loose scraps. but it mentioned how the sikh community in the sindh region (around the early 1800's were not much different than the "hindu"... compared to the muslim population.) they stated the priests were called "udaasi's" and that they administered 3 handfuls of "amrit" after a morning ishnaan (on some auspicious day). Those who wanted to enter the sikh-fold would take 5... whereas the "sehajdhari's" would take 3 and recite a specific mantar. if anyone is interested in the author and the reference material I'll be glad to post it. Narsingha, I will spend some more time in "polishing" the thesis and will have something put out by saturday take care to all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted June 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Good stuff. You may want to check out: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/sain_ravidas.html ..where we have revealed that there is a Bir of Adi Guru Durbar that contains the writings of Mirabai, a Rajput princess and a follower of Bhagat Ravidas who worshipped Vishnu. Not many people know that there is a Bir with the teachings of a female saint within its pages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Good stuff. You may want to check out: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/sain_ravidas.html ..where we have revealed that there is a Bir of Adi Guru Durbar that contains the writings of Mirabai, a Rajput princess and a follower of Bhagat Ravidas who worshipped Vishnu. Not many people know that there is a Bir with the teachings of a female saint within its pages Narsingha Are you just in the habit of making statements or do you actually do any research yourself ?. Are your views your own or do they belong to someone else since you never seem to want to have your views tested against the scholarship of others. Perhaps you would like to read 'Aad Bir Bare' by Professor Sahib Singh in which he has demolished the Bhai Banno Bir as an authentic Bir. BTW since the Punjabi on your website shows that you are not very fluent in the language, you can read the english translation of the above book ' About compilation of Guru Granth Sahib' For the information of the other posters this thread was placed by Narsingha on the Sikh history forum where I am a moderator but rejected by me because of his refusal to debate the contents of his thread and the website. You can read the full thread on http://www.sikh-history.com/cgi-bin/Ultima...ic;f=1;t=001482 BTW narsingha posts as Nihang on the Sikh history forum Gurfateh Bikramjit Singh Narsingha don't bother replying I know exactly how many words like 'ego', 'fascist' ,'fool', etc you are going to use, so don't bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted June 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Sri Akaal Ji Sahai Bikramjit, try not to drag people to ur low level thinkin of petty insults. I know this is the only way you can gain any credit but at least make an effort. Your buttons are easier to push than a calculator designed for the partially sighted. Get over it. Are you aiming to receive a Siropa from the SGPC for your efforts in trying to malign my reputation? Newsflash for Bikramjit: No one really cares what you think of me...! All you are capable of doing is throwing petty personal insults on internet dicussion forums. This is the extent of your "discussions" and "debates". For those who will read that thread on the Sikh History Website, they will realise this for themselves. I encourage people to read that thread, as it reveals the level of discussion Bikramjit wishes to utilise. With regards to my Punjabi, that is none of your concern. You are in no position to make such an assessment, but, then again, seeing that you are a moderator on a website, this must be adequate qualifications for your opinion to become gospel (yeah right) The question remains, who's research would one trust? Professor Sahib Singh, a stooge of the SGPC with an education from the British Raj, or Giani Gian Singh Nirmala, who was taught the traditional Sanatan way and knowledgable in ancient scriptures and historical texts. Even Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha states the authenticity of Bhai Bhano Wali Bir. If you wish to stick to Professor Sahib Singh, then good on you, however it may be worthy to research the credentials of Professor Sahib Singh and Giani Gian Singh Nirmala to find out who's opinion has more credibility. It may also be worthy to note that Prof Sahib Singh was extremely pro-chatka (ironically his translations are used by puritanical fanatic vegetarian mainstream Sikhs). The reason there cannot be any debate with you is because as is evident from the thread on Sikh History forum which you started, all you are capable of doing is hurling insults everytime something does not go your way. No doubt you will attempt to reduce the quality of this forum to your low level thinking too, as you have done on the Sikh History thread. Time will reveal this to be the case... Continue your petty rantings Bikramjit....should it acheive anything for you. You are but a child in need of attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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