homosexuality in sikhism

[Sukhi]

like anyone who hasn't been under a rock for the last 10 years, i'm aware of homosexuality and the general stance of people on it as a "bad" thing.

judging from a recent thread here on sada trusty SA called "homosexuality in something or other" i was wondering why people see homosexuality as a negative issue that must be dealt with (if that's what you think about it).

could some please explain to me why there's a need to segregate between heterosexuals and homosexuals in Sikhi which emphasizes humanity, tolerance and equality (in whatever sense you wanna think about it in) for all regardless of sex, caste, creed, or colour?

[Pheena]

It is common knowledge that homosexuality has been present in the human population for ages. It is only that it has been brought into the public view that we find ourselves questioning the ethical and the moral behavious of this type of environment.

First before we begin to lable homosexuality as a 'bad', 'sinfull' thing we must understand why it exists. Is this a Choice or Not? Are Homosexuals "choosing" to be attracted to same sex? Is it in their nature, do they feel it is natural as it is natural as for a hetrosexual individual to be attracted to the opposite sex? For that i have a theory.

It is said even the Guru mentions this that whatever we think at the last breath of our life so we have a birth accordingly. Now it is the Mind that is attractive to the other sex, not the body. It is this Mind (luggage) that we have been carrying thru out our lives for it contains all the records of our past-lives and is the land of our desires.. It is also said that whatever we Desire, we will have it. A man so attracted to the opposite sex that he is constantly thinking about it. Even in his sleep, he has the desire to even become the opposite sex (transexual). It is this last desire or a desire to become, be the opposite sex planted thru out his previous life or past lifetimes that one is born in the body of a male yet the mind is still a female attracted to the male. A man in his dying breath is still thinking about being the opposite sex and it just so happens that he receives the body of that sex, yet his mind is still attracted (desire) to that sex. Once he begins to grow, mature, his desire begin to manifest and his attarction from his previous life/lifetimes comes out. Such we can see the charactristics of a female in a homosexual individual. Yet not all homosexual individual are flamboyant as other. This has to do with the hormonal balace which the mind has to create...in some male bodies it is easier in other it is difficult. So you cannot see the outward homosexuality in the some. The Mind has to force this hormonal change and it becomes difficult as the body is of male and the mind is a female, that is the conflict and the results of this conflict are present in both the flamboyant type homosexuals and the those who seem hetro, yet have homosexual mind.

Now the other theory which is commonly read everywhere is the environment that creates these types of behavious. Osho blames homosexuality on this, in his book, 'I Say Unto You'. I do not have a online version of this book, but i will type out the paragraph which mentions this. But from what i can remember he says, Homosexuality is a product of the environment which males are foced to live in. Ie: Prison, Armies. It is this environment which is a factor in one becoming a homosexual person.

Few more theories that go with the environmental one is related to those individuals who have been sexualy molested, assualted in their childhood that changed them. Such traumetic incidents in a childs life can possibily be a cause for this, but not always is this true. Because not everyone who is a homosexual had such incidents in thier childhood, but those that have, this is certainly worth conderation.

Now taking those few theories in consideration we are left with the question, is this a Choice? Are some people choosing to become homosexuals or is both their desires and the environment that is the factor in such a change in behaviour?

If it is not a choice but something related to his past-live/desires manifesting in his present life then hw many of us are born because we have desire. Then which is the root cause, homoseuxality or desire.

If it is a choice then it is a choice one chooses to make. Nature works with a balance of opposites. If we remove one of the opposites then obviously it will create an imbalance. But can this imbalance not be created thru desire and the rebirth or product of that desire as a homosexual individual.

I am going to go a bit off topic but i feel it is importenet as it relates to the reasons behind homosexuality. As for 2 homosexual creating a family then it is obviously going to create an imbalance as the child (adopted or however conceived) needs both the male and female energies to balance the growth. This can be seen with divorced families where the child has only lived with the mother or only the father. There are obvious dificiencies in the developement of the child. Altho there are a certain cases where either the mother or the father is able to provide both energies to the child and it is in such rare cases that the balance is created.

I had a childhood friend who didn't see his dad until the age of 8 for the previous 8 years he grew up with my mother with her compassion and Love. His whole personaliity is because of her energy. He often would say to me that to him God is a Mother, to his this was not just a word that he have heard to read soemthwere, but it was his experience. Thru out his life he had met only females who have had such influences upon him and this female energy had created the foundation of his personality. Now if he had lived with my father Most Certainly he would've had a different view of life and his perception would've have impact of both energies.. (and no he did not become a homosexual because of this environment)

Now this does not mean that those that grew with both of their parents they cannot percpeive god as a mother, but my decision to speak of my friend was to give an example of how living with only one parent energy influcnes an individual. Now if both of the parents are the same energies, it is obviously going to affect the child, i will not say in a negative but it is certainly worth digging deep into to see how it affects the development of the psyche of a child.

As far as i know the guru do not mention Homosexuality, they do not even touch the subject, perhaps to them the spiritual development of an individual is more importent then condeming other to hell because of their desires/choices. To them one should develope their spiritual deficiencies first before one begins to judge other of theirs. Look upon yourself of what you lack, of what you have lost, before you begin to condem others as 'bad' 'sinfull'. Atleast that is the message i have understood.

[Sukhi]

that was very nicely put Pheena.

i agree with you on understanding whether or not homosexuality is a choice to really understand it thoroughly. but apart from this, i've been questioning the way i think about things as being "bad" or "good". for me the question isn't whether people make the choice to be homosexual or not as something "good" or "bad" but rather whether our reactions (or rather my reaction) to them is a good reflection of Sikh values.

if indeed Sikhi values tolerance, humility, and sees the entire human race as one, then wouldn't respecting all peoples be considered paramount to spiritual growth?

i'm not sure if i'm explaining this properly, so i'm going to use the example of Bhai Kanhiya jee. when he was out on the battlefield, he didn't differentiate between Sikhs and Moghuls. he truly saw the same thing in everyone, and as a result, he did everyone's seva.

so in the same sense, if the entire human race is looked at in the same way, then shouldn't the same principle of "equality" be used? in the example of Bhai Kanhiya jee, replace the Sikhs with heterosexuals and the Moghuls with homosexuals. would Bhai Kanhiya jee refuse to help homosexuals because they made a different choice (in either this life or a past life)?

i think my biggest problem with the entire hullabaloo surrounding homosexuality is the development of a very hypocritical sense of ethics. we talk about having tolerance for everyone, yet we turn our face at the slightest hint of a difference. why is there a set of dual morals? one set for treating those who are like us, and another for those who are different?

anywho, moving on.

Pheena, you mentioned that there would be an imbalance in how a child would develop if they had homosexual parents. contrary to what you stated, studies that have been conducted on children who grew up with a same-sex couple as their parents show that there is no real difference between them and children who grow up with a heterosexual couple as their parents. apparently it's not having a man for a dad and a man for a mom that makes the difference, but rather that both a mom and a dad exist to take care of the child's needs.

[Pheena]

you have made some very valid points sukhi and i wholeheartdly agree with what you have said, especially of the Bhai Khanhiya analogy.

The last paragraph is very interesting, perhpas i have misread your words, but the last line seems confusing, it seem true for a hetrosexual parents, but not for a homosexual. As they are both either male or female. Would i be correct in assuming that a man can play the role of a mom and expose the child to the same warmth (love, compassion, closeness) a female mother can to her offspring? Altho physically the male mother and the female mother are entirely different, i do somehow question the ability of a male mother to be equally potent as the female energy. I don't dout that it cannot happen, but it just seems very unlikely. I believe further study into this would reveal much more towards the homosexuals than ever thought. If indeed the child is no different then it is entirely possible that the femal body is not necessary to equalize the balance, but only the mental ability/capacity.

[Infernal Monk]

I didn't read the posts, sorry too much reading right now...lol

But I will say that in Sikhi all are equal.

However I am not sure on my stance of homosexuality, party because I don't know much about it. Granted it has existed for thousands of years, only recently has it come out of the closet. I don't know what to think of it. I don't blame people for being gay (blame them for what? lol). I think it is something you don't control (wiring of the brain?). Which brings me to think what if it is say a disorder? Like we have people we consider lacking some of their marbles, or some other disorders. I don't know I'm rambling....I choose not to pass any judgements because I don't know much about it...I'll wait till we find out more.

Just to play devil's advocate tho, it really isn't natural right? parts don't fit..lol :wink:

[Sukhi]

Pheena, i don't have too much time to answer (exam and presentation early tomorrow morning... nooo! :shock:) but i'll try to put something down.

from the various studies i've looked at, there was no difference seen in the development of children from same-sex parents and opposite-sex parents. in fact, some of the studies even suggested that children with same-sex parents were actually better off than children raised by opposite-sex parents and suggested a variety of reasons mostly involving parenting skills and communication.

one of the main things that the studies emphasized was the importance of having TWO parents rather than one. the studies compared the development of children raised by same-sex parents, opposite-sex parents and single-parents. in the end, the single-parent families tended to be worse off and the same-sex and opposite-sex families tended to be about the same.

in essence, i think that as long as the child is getting the love of a male-mother or a female-mother doesn't make as much difference as long as the child has two parents sharing and caring and being a good example of how to live in harmony. does love change if you're a different sex?

[Pheena]

does love change if you're a different sex?

That is a very good question sukhi ji.

The expression of love thru a female-mother as oppose to a male-mother is very much questionable...as to their recepetion or their projection can only be known with proximity. Altho i tend to believe that Love is Love is Love. ON that note i have heard in many instances where a mother or a father in a hetrosexual marriage had to take upon both roles as a result of absence of one of the parents. The children often expressed that their mother/father was both of their parents.

I will need to further contemplate on your question. Perhaps it cannot be answered by a mere observer but can only be known thru someone who has experienced it

[Sukhi]

thanks for your input Pheena.

i'm starting to wonder why only you and i are either brave or stupid enough to risk saying anything in this thread with the exception of Infernal Monkey who didn't say much...

this thread has been viewed 113 times now (excluding me this time around). why are you all so scared?

[guv]

i think we all had enough after the homosexuality in budha dal uk thread.

but just a response to infernal bandar... it's not just come out of the closet recently. most of the ancient cultures (eg greeks, egyptians etc) had liberal attitudes towards homosexuality, & it wasn't an issue. what did seem to be important though was whether u were on the 'giving' end (acceptable) or on the 'receiving' (embarassing & humiliating).

[Infernal Monk]

i think we all had enough after the homosexuality in budha dal uk thread.

but just a response to infernal bandar... it's not just come out of the closet recently. most of the ancient cultures (eg greeks, egyptians etc) had liberal attitudes towards homosexuality, & it wasn't an issue. what did seem to be important though was whether u were on the 'giving' end (acceptable) or on the 'receiving' (embarrassing & humiliating).

Hey now, lets have some respect for all da monks out there...

But yeah I did say it has existed for thousands of years...but when I said it has recently come out of the closet I meant that in current day culture...With the major religions looking down upon it, it was put into the closet...began with the rise of Christianity as a major world power in late 4th century (sorry I wasn't clear enough).

i'm starting to wonder why only you and i are either brave or stupid enough to risk saying anything in this thread with the exception of Infernal Monkey who didn't say much...

I thought I answered your original question which was what we believe Sikhi's stance on homosexuality to be...I said we are all equal..so no segregating. Plus I said we should learn more about it before we begin passing judgments...Is it a mental condition? or is it conditioning? or is it just another way for people to be? I don't know..I don't think we should pass judgment on something we don't know much about...ignorance is a bad thing...

sorry if the above is not coherent...I'm tired, and still on...lol

[guv]

nuff respect going out to all da monks out dere!

[SAadmin]

Please stick to the topic guys !!!!!

All the off-topics will be deleted without any notice.

[Dalvir]

yea, i was told that homosexuality is an issue because the jathedar of the Akal Takht said that we can't have it. I don't think that Sikhs in particular should be "homo's".

[Sukhi]

Dalvir is there any reason apart from the fact that the akal takht jathedar discourages it for you to think it's an issue?

[tableji]

sukhi, i think what u said about sikhs generally fits here aswell, actually it fits for practically everything....

[Pheena]

yea, i was told that homosexuality is an issue because the jathedar of the Akal Takht said that we can't have it. I don't think that Sikhs in particular should be "homo's".

Are You or the Akal Thakhat 100% certain that this is a Choice?

[Guest]

I wonder what Sant Mandali says about this issue :?

[Dalvir]

Dalvir is there any reason apart from the fact that the akal takht jathedar discourages it for you to think it's an issue?

no there really isn't. But it doesn't seem like a good thing, i dont no y. like 2 guys or 2 girls together and kissing,etc. doesnt seem to fit how nature made things.

[Sukhi]

okay, i understand that Dalvir.

but how are you going to say that IF it ends up being absolutely true beyond a shadow of doubt that homosexual people have those preferences due to their genes and tha's how nature created them?

you can't get more natural than being the way nature made you...

[Dalvir]

i c what u mean.

so ur saying that u support homosexuals in Sikhism and in other religions?

Sukhi ji i respect u and ur ideas but mine r going to stay the same. I dont like the thought of 2 men or women 2gether. yes its true that they r human and have human genes, etc. BUT a man isnt made for another man as well as women 4 women. A man is made specifically by God to have a women, even Guru Nanak syas that When women dies man is in search for another women, that man is attached to women, He DOES NOT say that man is searching for anoother man!! Thus concluding that this is against nature.

Dalvir

[Sukhi]

Dalvir jee, i too respect you and your ideas and i'm not trying to change them. i'm merely making an attempt to discuss with you in an attempt to understand a controversial issue in more depth.

and if supporting basic human rights and believing in equality means that i support homosexuality, then i guess i do.

as for your conclusion, i can't say i agree with it until you give me the shabad and i see it for myself. besides, i'm not one for using gurbani tuks out of context.

this is in no way meant to be an attack on you Dalvir or your ideas. like i said before, i'm making and effort to understand.

[Dalvir]

First Mehl:

mehlaa 1.

From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.

bhand jammee-ai bhand nimmee-ai bhand mangan vee-aahu.

Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.

bhandahu hovai dostee bhandahu chalai raahu.

When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.

bhand mu-aa bhand bhaalee-ai bhand hovai banDhaan.

From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.

bhandahu hee bhand oopjai bhandai baajh na ko-ay.

O Nanak, only the True Lord is without a woman.

naanak bhandai baahraa ayko sachaa so-ay.

Dear Sukhi Ji,

I'm sorry for my last post and if u were offended in anyway I do not wish to attack you. Furthermore, I understand you wish to gain insight about this homosexuality stuff. As i have provided the above Shabad by Guru Nanak, in it there is not 1 reference made that man is searching for another man. But in the end, its up to you to decide on what your beliefs are.

Dalvir Singh

[tableji]

gud post Dalvir, also in guru granth sahib ji...talk is always of husband and wife...even in our relationship with guru...we are all his jeev istriya....i guess this is a way of describing gurmat....taking a theme from guru grant h sahib ji, eventho the answer to the question might not written in black and white(although it is in this case) the theme that is obtained can be applied to questions and situations of this kind...if you get what i mean...

[Sukhi]

This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 473

mÚ 1 ]

BMif jMmIAY BMif inMmIAY BMif mMgxu vIAwhu ]

BMfhu hovY dosqI BMfhu clY rwhu ]

BMfu muAw BMfu BwlIAY BMif hovY bMDwnu ]

so ikau mMdw AwKIAY ijqu jMmih rwjwn ]

BMfhu hI BMfu aUpjY BMfY bwJu n koie ]

nwnk BMfY bwhrw eyko scw soie ]

ijqu muiK sdw swlwhIAY Bwgw rqI cwir ]

nwnk qy muK aUjly iqqu scY drbwir ]2]

ma 1 ||

bha(n)dd ja(n)meeai bha(n)dd ni(n)meeai bha(n)dd ma(n)gan veeaahu ||

bha(n)ddahu hovai dhosathee bha(n)ddahu chalai raahu ||

bha(n)dd muaa bha(n)dd bhaaleeai bha(n)dd hovai ba(n)dhhaan ||

so kio ma(n)dhaa aakheeai jith ja(n)mehi raajaan ||

bha(n)ddahu hee bha(n)dd oopajai bha(n)ddai baajh n koe ||

naanak bha(n)ddai baaharaa eaeko sachaa soe ||

jith mukh sadhaa saalaaheeai bhaagaa rathee chaar ||

naanak thae mukh oojalae thith sachai dharabaar ||2||

First Mehl:

From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.

Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.

When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.

So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.

From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.

O Nanak, only the True Lord is without a woman.

That mouth which praises the Lord continually is blessed and beautiful.

O Nanak, those faces shall be radiant in the Court of the True Lord. ||2||

Dalvir, the shabad seems to be about respecting women.

as for referring to all of humanity as brides/women and God as the husband/man, it's a metaphor for the love and devotion we should feel for God, not how to align our social relationships.

so i guess i don't know what you mean, dalvir and drummer boy.

[Pheena]

http://www.backyardnature.net/j/o/homosex.htm

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/bio301d/Topics/Gay/Text.html

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/bio301d/Topics/Gay/BoyGirl.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_fixe.htm