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Its always been my understanding that once you become an amrit-dhari sikh - that all rituals, beliefs are to be gone but what about those individuals like i know someone who is an amrit-dhari sikh but believes in a baba vadhbaag singh and does "arti" each and every night, lights a deva in his house, but at the same time, does path and follows all the other rules.

This person that i know of sits infront of these pictures, plays really loud music, starts spinning is head and then all of sudden is body/mind is taken over by a "baba" and then people go and do "maatha-teek" ask for relief from whatever they are having probs with he supposedly cures them?? Can this be really true? what are you guys' opinions??

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Its always been my understanding that once you become an amrit-dhari sikh - that all rituals, beliefs are to be gone but what about those individuals like i know someone who is an amrit-dhari sikh but believes in a baba vadhbaag singh and does "arti" each and every night, lights a deva in his house, but at the same time, does path and follows all the other rules.

To add to sikher post, sikhi is not black and white..rituals you mentioned each have cosmic interpertation ie- doing arti of sri guru granth sahib ji is done because one considers sri guru granth sahib as living king of kings...in puratan times, sikhs used to treat guru sahib not just by saying but used rituals like- arti to express their sharda and love towards Guru Ji...also if you can search arti in our forum..you will find flowing of discussions regarding arti.

In your freind particular case, doing arti of baba vadbhag singh ji. he can do whatever he wishes however doing arti of any one except sri guru granth sahib comes in individualistic way of life cannot be confused as a "RULE/Rituals" of sikhs as whole community.

Now lighting deva or jot has an cosmic interpertation as well...even though this tradition has been lost in mainstream sikhi however traditionally lighting a jot has a purpose..when you light a jot and start meditation..you attracting positive energies (ie- devi, devta's, shaheed singhs) to protect you from negative energies/vibes.

This person that i know of sits infront of these pictures, plays really loud music, starts spinning is head and then all of sudden is body/mind is taken over by a "baba" and then people go and do "maatha-teek" ask for relief from whatever they are having probs with he supposedly cures them?? Can this be really true? what are you guys' opinions??

This comes in individualistic way of life, should not and must not be confused as "RULE/RITUAL" of sikh community as whole.

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Ok I kind of understood your answers but still have questions. Doesn't our guru ji say that we are only to follow and the SGGS, if thats the case then how can one justify that they are Sikh but do rituals that are not supposed to be permitted in sikhi.

This person does arti to baba vadhbaag singh, bib panni and Veer Nahar singh.. and then afterwards sits infront of all these pics of gurus, plays really loud music, starts spinning his head, his turban comes off his head and then all of a sudden he body/mind is takne over by a "spirit" of a dead person who they call "babaji" <<< this stuff i'm having a hard time grasping on - is this stuff for real? Then people go and bow thier head to the jot.. and ask baba for things, some ask for relief from aches n pains others ask for help in legal matters.

I'm just having a hard time believing that this is okay for a Gur-Sikh to do.

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Ok I kind of understood your answers but still have questions. Doesn't our guru ji say that we are only to follow and the SGGS, if thats the case then how can one justify that they are Sikh but do rituals that are not supposed to be permitted in sikhi.

This person does arti to baba vadhbaag singh, bib panni and Veer Nahar singh.. and then afterwards sits infront of all these pics of gurus, plays really loud music, starts spinning his head, his turban comes off his head and then all of a sudden he body/mind is takne over by a "spirit" of a dead person who they call "babaji" <<< this stuff i'm having a hard time grasping on - is this stuff for real? Then people go and bow thier head to the jot.. and ask baba for things, some ask for relief from aches n pains others ask for help in legal matters.

I'm just having a hard time believing that this is okay for a Gur-Sikh to do.

I understand where you coming from...this things are not according to gurmat (Thought of Guru). Amritdhari sikhs should not do these things. We are only told to follow sri guru granth sahib ji and to be in sangat of mahapursh- saints who attach us to feet of sri guru granth sahib ji only and not to follow rituals/bhrams like morti puja, photo puja, possessive head-spinning, body spinning.

To understand the suitation more, if you can answers few questions for the sangat.

- What kinda music he plays?

- Have you talked to people who bow down to him and found out if their stresses or pain gets healed ? What do this person give to his followers to solve problems- does he give to individuals - taga/taveet? or give individuals who are in pain - mala and tell them to do mool mantar da japp, gurbani ?

If that person gives people message to do gurbani da patt, mool mantar etc then i think this person could be for real but if he is asking for money and give taga/taveet or any superistious rituals to follow then he could be very well be fake just doing pakhand(drama) to gain followers and looking for money.

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ok some of the answers to your questions,

the music he plays is popular punjabi music with lyrics changed similar to hindi bhajans..

then people do maath -teek to the jot - if you go there the first time the "baba" will not even talk to you - you have to do at least 3 chounkian before the "baba" will talk.

At the third visit he will ask you what your problems are, he does say do paath, jap , and everything will be okay to some, to other he gives them what he calls "raakh" to wear all the time around thier neck and tells them to wear it around thier neck and never to take it off.

For those who go there with aches and pains, he first takes a "chimta" passes it thru the "jot" and rubs it up and down the person's back while the whole time chanting "whaeguru" and then he gives that person, some ghee to rub whenever they feel they are in pain.

People that I have seen go there state they are feeling better but there are some who given promises such as "baba" can cure diabetes, hypertension have not come true.

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looks like this baba is not real deal that does not mean he is fake either.. may be he is struggling his way through it or an misguided person who is influenced with different mat(school of thought) and keep mixing it up with sikh mat.. I don't know if you are aware but when you start meditating, eventually you will get occult powers.. lot of people do meditation for that purpose and some innocent people starts with good intention in the path of meditation in spark of love towards god but when they get these occult powers, they go astray and start abusing these occult powers in outside will of God.

- Rakhh(dhagga) you meantioned is defaniately not according to sikh/Gurmat...we are not supposed to wear anything like that around our neck ..only neck wali kirpan with kanga is acceptable.

- Matha taiking and idiolizing to jot, smadh is not acceptable in sikhi and it's not according to Gurmat.

- Chimta, jaroo hitting etc are also not accepted in sikhi and is not according to Gurmat.

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There is no clear cut answer to this but let me tell you that without the grace of almighty nothing is possible. We always get attached to the messenger knowing that source is that Great Spirit whom we call God/Ishwar/Allah/Vaheguroo etc.

There will always be a part of every religion where one will follow the radical part and another one spiritual. There will be attacks on Dharma in the form of misinformation. It is just to distract devotees. What that so-called baba does has nothing to do with living Sikh way of life. You can become spiritual and get all these powers. Gurbani is clear on this topic. Please read below and it might relate to this topic. Thanks

http://allaboutsikhs.com/mansukh/036.htm

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Ok.. thanks for your all replies, but this person who now has these "powers" was a lost soul 2yrs ago, he went to india and came back a "reformed" person, apparently this "baba" thing was introduced to him and he became a believer. The good thing that has come out of all of this is that he has given up all past life and had been doing path and living like he already had taken amrit but didnt do amrit-shak til a month ago. He has people come to his apartment solely for the purpose to meet the "baba" and supposedly be rid of all thier aches, pains and misery of life.

HOwever one time this time the "baba" was challenged by someone whome he had laelled as a liar, she came with all forces to declare her innoncence but was humiliated by this "baba" infront of the sangat and was given "shraaf" - if this person is supposedly true, and has ocuult powers is this abuse of those powers??

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Sounds quite familiar to the things that happen when people worship their ancestors or 'shaheeds.' its a common practise amongst jatts. usually the ancestors will communicate through one member of the family and the 'jathedar' will posses the family members body to communicate with the rest of the family. its a very very very dangerous thing to get into and once u get in its very difficuilt if not impossible to get out.

"Jats are very reluctant to abandon their Jat traditions and beliefs, indeed many Jats to this day, in one way or another, indulge in worship of their ‘Jatheras’ (ancestors) or clan ‘Shaheeds’ (martyrs). Many have blended Jathera worship with orthodox Sikh worship. A large majority of Jats hold an ‘Akhand Path’ (complete reading of Adi Guru Durbar), on occasions such as weddings, or annually, on the martyrdom day of their ancestor. After a Sikh wedding many Jat Sikhs will take the newlywed bride and groom to bow before their village ‘Shaheedi Jaga’ (martyrs mausoleum/memorial). It has to be noted that all such practices are strictly forbidden in strict Akali Nihang Khalsa code of conduct."

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/article_samparda_jat3.html

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On the general point of rituals...are we sure that Sikhism doesn't have any rituals ?

Bowing before the guru granth sahib & fanning the guru granth sahib. Aren't these rituals too ? Doing any sort of devotional act in a disconnected manner...is that not a ritualistic act.

Surely rituals are not bad in themselves, only when performed without sincere devotion.

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Gurfateh

rituals are somthing which are must as a Dogma to be done in religeon.

As Sag Roti Ji mention it is not must for us to do chaur(fanning) Sahib or Mattha Takena(bowing) but optional.Say sick man in Gurudwara is not forced to bow and seldom all do chaur Sahib.

We can use a term better as symbolism.Same can be said for various practises in other faiths like Islam or say so called Hinduism that it is more a symbolic but people deem it as ritual.

Das is thankfll to sag roti ji for though provoking post.Das had similar interaction with Sikhs at gursikhijeevan.com and same were views there for parakarma.

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Sounds quite familiar to the things that happen when people worship their ancestors or 'shaheeds.' its a common practise amongst jatts. usually the ancestors will communicate through one member of the family and the 'jathedar' will posses the family members body to communicate with the rest of the family. its a very very very dangerous thing to get into and once u get in its very difficuilt if not impossible to get out.

"Jats are very reluctant to abandon their Jat traditions and beliefs, indeed many Jats to this day, in one way or another, indulge in worship of their ‘Jatheras’ (ancestors) or clan ‘Shaheeds’ (martyrs). Many have blended Jathera worship with orthodox Sikh worship. A large majority of Jats hold an ‘Akhand Path’ (complete reading of Adi Guru Durbar), on occasions such as weddings, or annually, on the martyrdom day of their ancestor. After a Sikh wedding many Jat Sikhs will take the newlywed bride and groom to bow before their village ‘Shaheedi Jaga’ (martyrs mausoleum/memorial). It has to be noted that all such practices are strictly forbidden in strict Akali Nihang Khalsa code of conduct."

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/article_samparda_jat3.html

yea they wanted my brother n bhabhi to go n do that as they gt married in india! my bruva was like yea watever!!!! not happening! but thats first time i ever heard of this praying to shaheed!!

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