Can Sikhism offer salvation?

[Rajs]

History:

It is quite evident from Sikh scriptures, Punjabi culture, customs and traditions that Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism with some Islamic theology adaptations, such as the concept of one God and rejection of idol worship. Historically, the ten gurus never ever disassociated themselves from Hinduism but remain within the parameter of Hinduism. What they did do was to speak out against certain practices of Hinduism exploited by the Brahmins. In particular, the caste system and status of women in the society.

It was the British, who according to their policy “to divide and rule,†went about severing the umbilical chord and planting the seed of distinction between Sikhs and Hindus. In fact, for over hundred years, while most of the Sikhs were serving the British army, it was the Hindus, who never considered Sikh gurus as non-Hindus, looked after the Gurdwaras. Later, Singh Sabha, in early 20th century began to take control over the Gurdwaras and started to secede from Hindu religion for political reasons.

Gurus:

Perceived founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak’s act of rejecting “Janeau†ceremony is always pointed out as an ironclad fact that, Nanak rejected Hinduism. However, what is often overlooked are the facts that Nanak never ever started a new religion; he was born to Hindu parents, married a Hindu and according to Hindu customs. All the gurus were Hindus; one has to just study, the names of all gurus, their wives, and their children to see that names were derived from Hindu gods and goddess. As a religion, Sikhism has no foundation whatsoever. Guru Gobind Singh did start the Khalsa-Panth, however, if you are to take Gobind Singh’s baptism initiation as the beginning for Sikh religion then you will have to disqualify the previous nine gurus as Sikh Gurus because none of them were baptized. You will also have to accept Gobind Singh’s baptism initiation as a failure because the number of Sikhs baptised at any given time in history and at present is pitifully low.

The Guru Granth is touted, as the ultimate living Guru for the Sikhs. However, the fact is that Guru Arjun wrote the “Adi Granth“ in 1604 but it wasn’t until another 104 years before it became “Guru Granthâ€! What, may I ask, was the status of Guru Granth between 1604 and 1708? Were Guru Arjun and the rest of the Gurus running a parallel Guruship along the Guru Granth or, for over hundred year period it was just an ordinary book?

Among Sikhs, it is believed that when Nanak died, his body turned into flowers, which were distributed among his Hindu and Muslim followers for last rites according to their customs! Why, I mean, where were the Sikhs to take care of his remains or flowers? What about the bodies of later nine gurus? Since they were attributed with same jyote (guru’s spirit) then how come their bodies did not turn into flowers or whatever?

Teaching:

Nanak was greatly influenced by Sufis and Sants of both religions, Hinduism and Islam. The journeys he undertook were mainly to learn from others, rather than, to dispense his own brand of religion, i.e., Sikhism. In India, he mainly taught against Brahminism and their self-serving practises, but did not, at any stage reject Hinduism. Incorporating teachings of Farid, Ravidas, Surdas, Kabir, Ramanand, and many others, in the Granth is a clear indication of lack of original substance on part of the Gurus. According to nearly all Sikhism literature, there is only one God and is the same God for all people of all religions. Does it mean Sikhs have no problem in walking into a Mosque, a Church, a Mandir, etc. and worshipping along with the people present there. After all, the same God is there as in the Gurdwara? Would Sikhs be willing to praise the name of Allah, meditate on Buddha, and sing Vishnu’s praise?

Conclusion:

To understand Sikhism, one must see that it is a branch of Hinduism that was cut from the main tree and planted on its own which eventually generated roots and became a separate tree. However, even as a separate tree, it still contains the same characteristics as the original tree from which it was taken. Trees of same species may look different in their outlook, i.e., physical form but they are not different in their inherent nature. After the British, Singh Sabha movement, which took over Nirankari and Namdhari movements of 19th century, began “creating†a unique Sikh identity to be identified with Sikhism, separate from Hinduism. To that effect, new customs and rites were formed, for e.g., a new marriage ceremony for Sikhs – Anand Karaj in early 1900. Change of Hindu names; Hari Mandir (Golden Temple) became Darbar Sahib. Names of gurus, too, began to change – Arjun became Arjan; Hari Govind became Har Gobind, Govind Rai became Gobind Singh, Hari Krishan became Harkrishan. For the past 100 years, Sikh establishment has been “creating†history and concocting stories, in order to separate themselves from the Hindus, a trend originally set by the British to divide-and-rule India.

Finally, on a personal level, I found that Sikhism has no answer for the ultimate barrier between God and mankind. In my search for the truth about God, I discovered that what actually separates us from God is sin. God is HOLY and we are sinners. Sikhism can never lead you to a path to God because it doesn't have one. All the Gurus died, and to think that there souls "merged" with God and the same can haapen to you is a fallacy. Gurus, in their lifespan, never did wash anybody's sins and neither can it be done today by reciting the Gurbani - just like going to Mecca or, washing in Ganges does nothing for your sins. Only by accepting Jesus Christ as Saviour, our sins may be forgiven, and salvation attained.

Regards

Rajs

[TROUBLED]

ur rational! all u said bad about sikhi u should be ashamed! and u shall get panished for this.

[Mehtab Singh]

It is quite evident from Sikh scriptures, Punjabi culture, customs and traditions that Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism with some Islamic theology adaptations, such as the concept of one God and rejection of idol worship.

Guru Nanak Dev Jee's words : na ko Hindu, na ko Musalmaan.

Historically, the ten gurus never ever disassociated themselves from Hinduism but remain within the parameter of Hinduism.

Gurujee has time & again emphasized in Gurbani that they are neither Hindu nor Muslim.

It was the British, who according to their policy “to divide and rule,†went about severing the umbilical chord and planting the seed of distinction between Sikhs and Hindus. In fact, for over hundred years, while most of the Sikhs were serving the British army, it was the Hindus, who never considered Sikh gurus as non-Hindus, looked after the Gurdwaras. Later, Singh Sabha, in early 20th century began to take control over the Gurdwaras and started to secede from Hindu religion for political reasons.

Same old rotten stuff!

however, if you are to take Gobind Singh’s baptism initiation as the beginning for Sikh religion then you will have to disqualify the previous nine gurus as Sikh Gurus because none of them were baptized.

Until the 9th Guru it was called Charan Pahul, and from Guru Gobind Singh Jee onwards it was Khande baate da Amrit. So all the Gurus WERE baptized.

You will also have to accept Gobind Singh’s baptism initiation as a failure because the number of Sikhs baptised at any given time in history and at present is pitifully low.

Because it takes one to be more than a mere human to go ahead and offer oneself at Gurujee's feet.

Were Guru Arjun and the rest of the Gurus running a parallel Guruship along the Guru Granth or, for over hundred year period it was just an ordinary book?

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee became the eternal Guru of the Sikhs in 1708 when Guru Gobind Singh Jee left His physical body. It was Him who passed on Gurgaddi to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Before that, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee (then called Adi Granth) was the main scripture of the Sikhs, but Guruship passed on only after Guru Gobind Singh Jee.

where were the Sikhs to take care of his remains or flowers?

Followers of Guru Nanak Dev Jee were both of Hindu and Muslim backgrounds, and each wanted to do the last rites as per their customs.

What about the bodies of later nine gurus? Since they were attributed with same jyote (guru’s spirit) then how come their bodies did not turn into flowers or whatever?

The lesson that was meant to be taught was that people should not hate each other based on religious differences. Each of the 10 Gurus came with an exclusive message, and so its absurd to ask "how come their bodies did not turn into flowers" like Guru Nanak Dev Jee's did. Next you will ask "why didn't the Gurus after Guru Arjan Dev Jee not have to sit on a hot plate?", or "why wasn't any other Guru besides Guru Tegh Bahadur Jee beheaded?"

Incorporating teachings of Farid, Ravidas, Surdas, Kabir, Ramanand, and many others, in the Granth is a clear indication of lack of original substance on part of the Gurus.

Perhaps you have a problem with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee being the only scripture in the world which sees no barriers to religion. You will never hear Allah in a Hindu mandir, and you will never hear Ram in a Muslim mosque. But in the house of Guru Nanak where all are loved equally, you will hear both "Sabhey ghatt Ram boley" and "Awwal Allah Noor upaya".

Does it mean Sikhs have no problem in walking into a Mosque, a Church, a Mandir, etc. and worshipping along with the people present there. After all, the same God is there as in the Gurdwara? Would Sikhs be willing to praise the name of Allah, meditate on Buddha, and sing Vishnu’s praise?

Sikhs respect other faiths and firmly believe that others should have freedom to worship according to their own religion, which is why Guru Tegh Bahadur Jee stood up for Hindus even at the cost of His life (something you probably didn't know of). Just because we respect other faiths doesn't mean we start following them. Its like one guy respecting his friend's dad starts calling the man as his own dad!! Ridiculous.

To understand Sikhism, one must see that it is a branch of Hinduism that was cut from the main tree and planted on its own which eventually generated roots and became a separate tree.

Try as hard as you may, but thats never gonna happen sweety. You may try to fool a few naive Sikhs with this ideology, but then again thats because they are naive.

However, even as a separate tree, it still contains the same characteristics as the original tree from which it was taken.

So? There are loads of similarities in Judaism, Christianity and Islam, does that mean they are 1 religion? Try reasoning with a Muslim that he is a Jew or a Christian.

After the British, Singh Sabha movement, which took over Nirankari and Namdhari movements of 19th century, began “creating†a unique Sikh identity to be identified with Sikhism, separate from Hinduism.

The separate identity was created by Dasmesh Pita Sahib Guru Gobind Singh Jee.

To that effect, new customs and rites were formed, for e.g., a new marriage ceremony for Sikhs – Anand Karaj in early 1900. Change of Hindu names; Hari Mandir (Golden Temple) became Darbar Sahib. Names of gurus, too, began to change – Arjun became Arjan; Hari Govind became Har Gobind, Govind Rai became Gobind Singh, Hari Krishan became Harkrishan. For the past 100 years, Sikh establishment has been “creating†history and concocting stories, in order to separate themselves from the Hindus, a trend originally set by the British to divide-and-rule India.

Another piece of propaganda.

Finally, on a personal level, I found that Sikhism has no answer for the ultimate barrier between God and mankind.

Since you believe that there is a barrier, and since you believe it is ultimate, you have already closed your eyes to the truth that Gurbani teaches, which is why you can't see it. Gurbani says that God is closer to us even more than our own limbs, yet you see this ultimate barrier and blame Gurbani for not teaching the truth? Do you have a problem?

In my search for the truth about God, I discovered that what actually separates us from God is sin.

Thats the duality thats stuck up in your head. You think that we are separate from God whereas actually its the relation between a drop and the ocean and can't be separated. Its maya/mammon that causes the duality.

Sikhism can never lead you to a path to God because it doesn't have one.

Maybe you can't see the path because its the shortest possible way to get to God. Happens dude! When one is blinded to a point that you close your eyes inspite of being blind, you tend not to see stuff thats obvious, so its not your fault.

All the Gurus died, and to think that there souls "merged" with God and the same can haapen to you is a fallacy.

The truth never dies. There have been loads of those who called themselves kings and masters, but where are they today? These kings and masters were all fake and temporary. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee was our True King (Sachey Patshah) centuries ago, and will remain the same till eternity. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee was our True Guru (SatGuru) centuries ago, and will remain the same till eternity. False are others who came and died, but this Guru Jot, this Shabad Guru is eternal.

Gurus, in their lifespan, never did wash anybody's sins and neither can it be done today by reciting the Gurbani - just like going to Mecca or, washing in Ganges does nothing for your sins. Only by accepting Jesus Christ as Saviour, our sins may be forgiven, and salvation attained.

Jesus said "No one comes to the Father but through me". With all due respect to Jesus (something you don't have for our Gurus), let me point out that he in a way compelled people to follow him if they wanted to go to heaven, or else they were doomed. It seems as though he wanted them to become his followers in return/exchange for his sacrifice.

But look at the greatness of Dhann Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Jee, who sacrificed His life for another faith (Hinduism...yup it was another faith because Gurujee wasn't Hindu) and never asked for anything in return. No thanks, no acknowledgement, and didn't ask even a single Hindu to become a Sikh since He was sacrificing His life for their freedom of religion. Beat that!

I am really sorry to say this, but your knowledge on Sikhism is totally hopeless. I feel for you bro!

Before making your next post, make sure you read this :

This should wake you up - Sikhism - By Janet Lant : http://www.searchsikhism.com/si3.html

Other stories to give you a rude shock : http://www.searchsikhism.com/stories.html

[Guest SAdmin]

Rajs

What makes a true Hindu?

Also please share with us what school of thought, Guru Nanak was following if he was Hindu?

Vaisnava and Shaivite

Smartism

Advaita Vedanta

Vishishtadvaita

Dvaita

Dvaitadvaita

Shuddhadvaita

Samkhya

Nyaya

Vaisheshika

Purva mimamsa

Vedanta

Uttar Mimamsa

Advaita Vedanta

Vishishtadvaita, or qualified monism.

Dvaita, or strict dualism.

Integral Yoga

Yoga

Hatha yoga

Siddha Yoga

Sorry if I wrote something twice. Let's hear from you?

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Jattan Di ho Gayee Balle Balle and Kharian Di Katr hai Hai.Dekho Dekho Nijjar Baba Part Ke Aye.

So Bapu Ji you are Back and with old style of tagging hinduism with Gurmat and trying to bring bad feelings among Sikhs and Hindus.

both by language of other middle east and old Santan Dharmi scriptures hindu was aderogaotry remark.

Yet like neggro sometimes says by proud that I am nigger just to put a slap on the face of racial pople due to Hindu race sometime if someone makes racial comments das can say so what I am hindu but I am chinees,Birtish,Papua New Geaniiean,Ghanian also As A Sikh I am from World.

As you are from gnostic church you always see body of Jesus or say our Gurus.You do not understand that our Guru is Yehova/Allah/Akal/Prahbrahma.

Like Christian missioanries Aray Samajis also have been trying to spread rumours from misinterperting scriptures and legends since ages but Panth still exist.

Rest of the members are informed that Rajs ji are our Baba Rajinder Singh Nijjar Jatt chaudhari of reading UK(das had some comrades from the same towen while bbeing with British Army in Surrey).

So this is just cut and paste from website of Nijjar Baba Ji.

If if it is true that what Das write by imagination then das could have said that das has converted Lord Jesus into Panth Khalsa and Baba Issa Singh Ji Nazrathwale.But imagination is false.body and actions of holy man are false but truth is eternal.Sat Sri Akal.

There is no need to feel bad of Hindus as poster is not hindu and Das requests Balbeer Singh Ji to have a gosti(exchange of views about sprituality and mysticim by Gnositc churches Baba Nijjer).

We can not affrod to miss the valuable views of Baba Ji with regard to his gnostic church views.

Amen.Hallelujah.

[ComeGetSome]

Rajs u there? Or has Mehtab shut you up now?

[Pheena]

First of all your whole approach to Salvation is wrong, NO religion can grant you salvation, Love alone IS and WILL BE the cause for your salvation. All Religion does is that it prepares you so that Love can sprout. Following rituals, rites, ceremonies does nothing until and unless Love has not premeated yoru being. You can follow whatever religion you want, without Love it is but an empty pitcher you are carrying. This Love is not the ordinary confined Love that streaches only as far as your relations or those who are in the same caste, religion, race as you might be, but it goes beyond all boundries. So bash whatever religion you want, if today your task is to present your biased view of sikhi then i feel sad for you because i am curious as to what have you gained out of all of this.

It is rather pitiful that you being a hindu/christian or whatever lable you consider your ego to be failed to see the true intentions of your own religion. Following the teaching of your religion that haven't yet brought you to salvation you dare attack another religion for its delivery to salvation.

FIRST Attain YOUR salvation. THEN come back and speak as if you have authority. Today you have NONE. You speak of France but you have not been there. You speak of Paris but you have only heard of it. You criticize the way people live and its history while reading from books, without living in their ways with your full heart. Standing aside you question the status of water, fearing to get your feet wet. How can you know anything?

Light your own self first before you begin to attack anothers for not being lit.

btw don't worry this isn't only for you, this is as much for you as it is for 'Sikhs' who share your views towards other religions.

[Rajs]

Hi,

Guru Nanak's statement "Na Koi Hindu, Na Koi Mussalman" neither made him a Sikh nor laid down foundation of a new religion. The statement actually belongs to Kabir, anyway, what he probably meant was that in God's eyes there is no Hindu or Muslim. Which could also mean nobody is Budhist, Christian, Jewish, Jain, or Sikh!

Furthermore, if Nanak rejected identifying mankind through religion and caste, and preached the universal brotherhood of men, then why would he began a new religion?

Regards

Rajs

[Mehtab Singh]

Guru Nanak's statement "Na Koi Hindu, Na Koi Mussalman" neither made him a Sikh nor laid down foundation of a new religion.

It made it clear, as you yourself stated, that in God's eyes we are all one.

The statement actually belongs to Kabir

And whats your source?

Furthermore, if Nanak rejected identifying mankind through religion and caste, and preached the universal brotherhood of men, then why would he began a new religion?

Bhai Gurdas Jee clearly says in his vaaraan "Nanak nirmal Panth chalaya", and yet those totally uninformed about Sikhism continue to weep and wail that Guru Nanak Dev Jee didn't start a new faith.

Seriously tell me something. Do we listen to you guys who have no idea what you gys on about, or do we listen to Gurujee's words which are stated clearly? Don't you guys have anything better to do? You know you should spend more time trying to be better Christians or which ever respected faith you belong to, rather than trying to screw other people's brains with your theories. Not to attack your ego, but the only few "Sikhs" who fall for your words are those who are as uneducated about Sikhism as you yourself are. So just because you "conquered" the non-existent brains of a few doesn't mean everyone else will buy all that you have to sell.

The reason we don't go around preaching Sikhism to brainwash people is because we believe in freedom of religion, something our Gurus gave their lives for. Plus a diamond loses its charm if you sell it cheaply, which is why we don't sell doctrines like "Come my way or be destined to hell for eternity".

So once again, if you are here to discuss about Sikhism and learn something, you are more than most welcome. Don't worry we won't get anywhere close to converting you, and infact we too look forward to understanding Christianity better so that we can respect other faiths more than we already do. But if you are here only to diss our faith and our Gurus, and that too without knowing anything substantial about Sikhism, then I am afraid we shall always be at war.

Good luck and God bless!

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Gurmat is Sanatan Panth ie First(and eternal) there was only Gurmat and other faiths came out of it.

Aad Sach Jugad Sach Hai Bhi Sach Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach.

And it will be the Last also.It is here to comliment the other religeons.

All people lead to us if they are faithfull to thier God be it Hindu,Muslim of Christian.

[Charles Murphy]

I believe that salvation is attained through worshipping God. That is, remembering God & doing voluntary acts of worship(out of love), repenting to God (in hope for forgiveness of sins) and obeying God's orders (out of fear of his punishment). Doesn't that make sense?

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Dear Charse,

Till we act good deeds while being a doer then we will keep on getting rewards of our acts so we may get heavan but no salvation.

To get salvation ie freedom from all pains we need to get free of all self pleasuring things also.

So we need to get us free from our own ego.

Once we surrender to God,then God takes care of us.Then we became that(God) ie one with God.

[Charles Murphy]

i guess it comes down to our understanding of God which we disagree on. In my understanding of God, good deeds bring you closer to God in a metaphorical sense but not a literal sense. I believe in the separation of creator and creation. I do not believe the creator creates himself or parts of himself. As a result, i believe worshipping that creator is the correct thing to do.

you said:

To get salvation ie freedom from all pains we need to get free of all self pleasuring things also

My understanding of salvation is also different. Salvation to me means being at peace with your creator. That is, your creator is pleased with you and you are pleased with him. And that salvation is only achieved through worshipping(i.e obeying his commands) him.

So i think we will just have to agree to disagree for the time being

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Dear Chrales,

Das here also made a sort of reltive stament.to be absolute thing.

It is in the control of God to salvage person God wants.

Even if we do very good works apparantly yet God may not salvage us.Das knows that salvage means saving litraly.

And even if we do aprantly very Bad deeds but then to God can salvage us.

God who is omnipotant does all.And can do all and we can not bound that(you do not come into control(of anyone) Guru Granth Sahib Ji).

then regarding God's being separted from creation.

Had this been hypothaiticaly

then creator needed some space to exsist and to creat creation therein.

but how is it possbile for creator in space to make space.And if creator already exist in space then who made that space?

to be clearer

A(creator) has to occupy some space say(xBy Y BY Z) to exisit.

Say B is the creation then if it is mdae out side (xBy Y BY Z) then that other sapce who made?

If A contracted within (xBy Y BY Z),to makie space for B in (xBy Y BY Z) then outisde space of this was lmiting A and that could not be made by A but bigger then A(so can not be God).

Say A made space outside (xBy Y BY Z) then at which space was space for B was made and who made that sapce. Lastly who made (xBy Y BY Z) whre A exisited.

[Charles Murphy]

yes, in a sense i agree. i believe God is merciful and i believe God can guide whom he wants. But i believe that guidance comes in the form of the guided being made pious. And thus worship of God. Like i said, our understanding of salvation is very different.

[Dynamic_Banda]

exactly charles your totally correct, in your approach (which is in no manner lesser or untrue) is that via good actions and Gods grace you can obtain salvation from his creation (this world and life) to reside alongside the creator (heaven), for us salvation means by Gods grace one can reside alongside God as a part of him, which would include here in this creation while being a part of the creation and even after here becomes no longer here (but this doesnt neccesarily imply that after here is a there ) infadoxical (refer to one of my previous posts for a clarification of that term)

And Rajs about sikhs coming from hindus being hindu etc, and guru nanak creating a new religion. He didnt create a new religion, man created a religio because of social identification and independance to avoid assimilation into the host society. The Khalsa isnt a religion its job is to defend dharam not sikhism, if it was to defend sikhism then why kill the masands ? after all werent they the most educated sikhs ?

A sikh can be whatever christian, muslim, hindu, its a pity that sikhism was created into a religion but then again everything has to have a manifested form of its own i guess in order to survive and be preached.. lol how do you preach universality and love ?

[ringdingding]

:twisted: erm . . . by threatening to kill everyone who doesn't believe in universal love