What is the aim of the Guru Granth Sahib?

[Beast]

I asked this question on another forum, but as usual it ended up as a mud-slinging feast.

Recent comments in the music zone (that as bhangra is not gurmat it shouldn't be on a Sikh Awareness website) made me think about this topic once again.

Your thoughts would be appreciated!

following on from the meat debates, a lot of the pro-vegetarians used the argument that Bani "forbids" meat.

This got me thinking - is Adi Granth a set of rules that we should adhere to so that God won't "punish" us?

I really can't identify with this - seems too much like orthodox Christianity to me.

To me, the Adi Granth has represented a spiritual guide to getting closer to God. I've never seen it as a prescriptive set of procedures to follow.

As a side point:

There are no shortage of people who use Adi Granth to criticise meat as a food source. But yet surely Guru Granth Sahib is also against ego, greed, anger, etc. Yet there is no controversy when people display those traits. And what about killing? There is a huge debate over killing animals, yet some of our Gurus killed men. And is fighting for dharam the only reason they killed? How could the situation where Guru Gobind Singh Ji poured hot oil over the corrupt masands be deemed dharam? I actually agree with Guru Gobind Singh Ji's actions - because if you look at the circumstances of that era, those masands deserved what they got. But if we consider Adi Guru Granth Sahib as a rulebook, then Guru Gobind Singh Ji was wrong!

Just my thoughts.

[Dynamic_Banda]

Those who regard the guru as true embodiement of akaal purakh joht, they dont need to look at this and that point and argue in the ways of scholars with references etc,

For them it is the experience of being around satguru ji that they learn what is right and what is wrong, for example, in my own experience I do not like going near tabia other then to matha tekh with a pajama on, one time i concidered it, when about to go behind the tabia sahib, i just got a feeling and couldnt, like when you do something wrong, and no matter how well you hide it your concious knows it was wrong, like stealing from parents or punching your dad or something.

Nothing can be gained no argument can have any stance, if it is not an experience..

Those who throw words and thesises back and forward without any experience of what they scream about what chance do they have of keeping it. It fades as time goes on, in my life I have seen this occur over and over again, I have done it too.. where one day I will kick the shit out of someone for a belief or practice, like those that eat meat are wrong.. and go through this shabad and that, but I never experienced that shabad, insted I read a link here or there, or heard a katha kar reference it, or did a search on sikhitothemax.

Without having expereienced the shabad without having it felt in your concious in your heart and soul, then its just been heard and nothing gained. the beauty of its taste has not been ingested just placed on the lips.

Many will argue what is sin and what is good, but very few will realise the truth. It is the truth that satguru ji gives to us to experience, but it is upto us to be willing to take in that experience.

Beast, I cant class satguru or describe what they are... sprititual guide, yeh sometimes.. lol but not everytime, sometimes they just a good listener, or sometimes just the most beautiful thing ever, and sometimes I walk in and life a fool who mistakes gold for sand, walk away with a handful of crap and having gained nothing but furthered my own ego. (believing I have devine revelation for my own personal desires and beliefs)

scholarly interpretations and sharia style laws of conduct based on references and quotes are all part of the many levels of sikhism. (the human body has many hundreds of individual systems, yet all work together to form one life) however the soul of sikhi in my experience is the true experiences between sikh and guru (love, fear, friendship, etc)

But thats my own understanding knowing very little of what is true love, to understand that then we need to turn to those who guru maharaj praises, all those great saints and peers.

[shaheediyan]

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is the living embodiment of our sublime Guru's.

Guru Ji's word is the path and the transport to take us to our ultimate desire and destination, Vahe-Guru.

Page 33, Line 9

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਬਿਖੁ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਗੁਰ ਤਰਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

gur parsaadee chhutee-ai bikh bhavjal sabad gur tarnaa. ||1|| rahaa-o.

By Guru's Grace you shall be saved. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean of poison. ||1||Pause||

In order to walk this path we need to 1st have complete faith in our Guru, and then we need to give our head to Guru - this means putting Guru's will higher than ours, listening to him, to his instructions, to his advice, to his warnings, to his rules......

Only by listening and obeying to we realise the immense benefits of their wisdom and revelation, those benefits cannot be realised through academic study or relying on our own limited intelligence, anand and mukti cannot only be experienced by submitting to his hukum.

Bani gives us questions, it gives us food for thought, it gives us tolernace, it gives us parameters, it gives us equality, it gives us justice, it gives us caveats/warnings, it is the ultimate parent, it prepares us - shows us how to live, how not to live.....

Bani gives us inspirtaipon, strength, courage, understanding,compassion, direction, focus....

Bani helps us to become the best we can, to not be hypocrites, to be role models, to consider the affect of our actions on others, to be responsible to be consious, to be fair....

Bani shows how to be artistic, how to praise Akaal Purkh....kirtan..

It shows us the futility of rituals, of manmat (following our own own opinions, understandings and justifications which suit us, rather that those of our Guru's words)...

This is just scratching the surface...

Those who are blessed enough to be able to have Guru Ji's darshan have all their questions answered, and that is where you will find your answers.

Our Guru's through their actions, through their hukumnamai, through giving amrit and creating the Khalsa, through giving us a maryada (rules), through bestowing power to the Granth and Panth have made our lives easier and given us such a lifestyle that enables to completely focus on Guru and hence on Vahe-Guru.

We are blessed with thousands of role models and blessed Gursikh who have dedicated their life to Guru and spreading his word, they have instense understandings of our Guru's message, and have further simplified our lives by advising us on how not to get trapped in the web of maya...

Rules are not bad if they simplify our lives and help us to battle the 5 thieves. To take Guru Gobind Singh Ji's amrit, we are bound by rules, those of the Khalsa. And it is those rules which Guru Ji has given which help us to live the life and tread the path which Guru Amardaas Ji has described as being fine as a hair and sharp as a sword.

The problem with world is not religions and rules, it's those people who don't follow the rules which God has revealed, more to the point, those who think they know better and make their own rules. It is these people which cause war, divisions and confusion, not those faithful to their respective revelations.

Vahe-Guru

[Mystical]

Im starting to think that the Nihang Sikhs have a better idea of what Guru is, they think that shabad is Guru (Aad Guru Granth sahib, Dasam Guru Granth sahib and Sarbloh Guru Granth sahib), this is why keeping respect for gutkay are even important. They also think that the Shaster is Guru (Kaal) as well, because of the power of the Shaster.

[shaheediyan]

No jathaa or sect is knowledgable or redeemed as an entity.

Understanding Guru Maharaj and his message is a boon which is bestowed by Akaal Purkh on any individual of his choosing.

True Sikhs can be found across the range (jathaa's divisionss) as individuals, and in more cases, that individual will not bear allegiance to or be patriotic towards his group, he will be emancipated and see truth and God in all, and wil las a result mix with all and hold all in high esteem.

Nihangs as a group are no more Sikhs than AKJ, Nanaksari, Taksaa or any other demonination.

Baba Isher Singh Ji (Rara Sahib), Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji (Bhindra) and Jassa Singh Aluvalia (Budda Daal), Baba Ram Singh (Namdhari), Baba Shaam Singh (Seva Panthi) were Sikhs with understanding of Akaal Purkhs word and offered their services to all Sikhs. Their grouping by other individuals bears no relevance to "who has a better understanding of Sikhi". This is a very narrow minded view by patriotic people.

Bear allegiance to the the 10th Master, learn from all, nothing else is important.

Vahe-Guru

[Beast]

In order to walk this path we need to 1st have complete faith in our Guru, and then we need to give our head to Guru - this means putting Guru's will higher than ours, listening to him, to his instructions, to his advice, to his warnings, to his rules......

but how then does this fit with the example I gave regarding Guru Gobind Singh Ji pouring searing hot oil over corrupt masands? Why not punish them in a different way?

[Mystical]

Nihangs as a group are no more Sikhs than AKJ, Nanaksari, Taksaa or any other demonination.

You couldnt be more right. But the word Nihang means without attachment or without fear. Any Sikh can be nihang. The word Nihang is in Aad Guru Granth Sahib.

[shaheediyan]

Rupz Ji,

Page 392, Line 2

ਨਿਰਭਉ ਹੋਇਓ ਭਇਆ ਨਿਹੰਗਾ ॥

nirbha-o ho-i-o bha-i-aa nihangaa.

Guru Arjan Dev

According to Guru Ji, Nihang means reckless/without thought of consequence.

In normal language use, words are utilised in the context of the day, today Nihang refers to Sikhs who have chosen to live by Budda/Tarni Daal maryada.

Beast Ji,

I wouldn't worry to much about that sakhi. I personally am not convinced by it. Sakhis are collections of heard stories put together by individuals after the Guru's lives. There will be some errors in them by way of statistics and human error.

I would focus on the sakhis which can be cross referenced across different sources and which do not condradict Bani or our Guru's characters.

It is no big mystery that our history does contain some inaccuracies!

<<((;-)>>

[Mystical]

Rupz Ji,

Page 392, Line 2

ਨਿਰਭਉ ਹੋਇਓ ਭਇਆ ਨਿਹੰਗਾ ॥

nirbha-o ho-i-o bha-i-aa nihangaa.

Guru Arjan Dev

According to Guru Ji, Nihang means reckless/without thought of consequence.

In normal language use, words are utilised in the context of the day, today Nihang refers to Sikhs who have chosen to live by Budda/Tarni Daal maryada.

Well the enemy is also described as being Nihang, There are many meanings for the word Nihang as well.

Well for the first time ive got proof for you.

"Nirbhao Hoyeyo, Bhaya Nihanga. "

"Being fearless, he becomes unrestrained".

http://www.amritworld.com/nihangs/in_gurugranth.html

"Paihlaan Dalaan Milandiyaan Bherh Pya Nihangaan."

"First, when armies approached each other, there was fighting of 'Nihangs'"

"Januk Lahar Dariyaav Te Niksyo Bado Nihang."

"As if a crocodile had emerged from the sea".

http://www.amritworld.com/nihangs/in_dasamgranth.html

I wouldnt post anything on this site without thinking of its trueness. The things in which I post are not made up.

Ever seen that film Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith? Darth Sidious says, "Good is a point of View". I know this might be only a film, but it makes sence as well. A Nihang can be the bold enemy or the bold friend much like anyone.

[Beast]

Beast Ji,

I wouldn't worry to much about that sakhi. I personally am not convinced by it. Sakhis are collections of heard stories put together by individuals after the Guru's lives. There will be some errors in them by way of statistics and human error.

I would focus on the sakhis which can be cross referenced across different sources and which do not condradict Bani or our Guru's characters.

It is no big mystery that our history does contain some inaccuracies!

I always thought that this was a universally accepted historical account?

What about Gurus hunting?

[Beast]

I always thought that this was a universally accepted historical account?

What about Gurus hunting?

Bani as I understand it is open to interpretation depending on the knowledge of the reader.

We were not around at the times of the Gurus therefore we cannot assume what their characters without firsthand recorded accounts.

Source:Sri Gur Partap Suraj Granth (thanks to Vijaydeep Singh for the info)

[shaheediyan]

Beast ji,

That is true. But that does not take away the fact that all biographies compiled later on in history will be 100% perfect, there is no such thing, never has been. Evevry single event in this world has more than one account, particulary faiths. All faiths have factioned due to different historical accounts of the faiths founders and founding.

Sikhi is no different. There will always be differences.

Again, with Guru's hunting, it is a personal choice whether you believe this sakhi or not. Different versions I have heard indicate that Guru's hunted to give those trapped souls mukti, which would not be above them to do so. Alternatively you can beleive they hunted to perfect their fighting skills.

I personally admire Baba Gurbachan Singh Khalsa Ji, who although initiated by Buddal Daal, practiced his swords techniques using coconuts, which if you ask anyone who has tried, are very difficult to cut. This tradition has grown immensly, and Tarna daal particularly are fond of this method.

Even Nihangs do not look down on non-meat eaters, they accept that it is a spiritual characterstic, and has been for many great Gursikhs including Baba Shaam Singh Ji Seva Panthi and Baba Ram Singh Namdhari (who was an ex-soldier).

That is not to say I don't believe Sikhs hunted during the 1700's, as I have read accounts of Sikhs in the wild hunting boer, but at the same time I have read accounts of Sikhs who lived only daal and roti.

I would not worry about minor details of history, and would focus on your own journey in Sikhi.

Vahe-Guru.

[unbreakable]

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[unbreakable]

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[moonriver]

naam japo. vand chhako. dharm ki kirt karo.

those are the rules you follow.

read bani. worship bani. fall in Love with bani.

and god will fall in love with you.

i've heard that He never punishes the ones that yearn for Him.

the aim of Guru Sahib is to take you closer to your own self.

that's all that matters, isnt it beastie? eating meat doesnt make you a bad person. i dont think it does. but when you see your preetam in every jee, you just dont want to eat it anymore.

what's the point of becoming a vegetarian but still crave for meat just because everyone says it's the right thing to do.

as for that sakhi about guru sahib.

if you take guru gobind singh ji to be your guru, then tell your mind to shuttup. a disciple never doubts his master. guru sahib knows what He's doing, we dont.

=)