d r e a m s Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 Someone told me that only the first verse was a "relevation" from God, and that everything else that follows is from Guru Nanak Dev Ji himself... Is this false? If so, how much is exactly from God? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystical Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 All writings were from God. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawrof Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 I am going to be serious here (I promise) I find this to be a very very interesting topic as christians and muslims that I have come across see guru granth sahib ji as a collection of divinely inspired hymns which contextualizes gurbani as a 'fluff' spiritual/hippie like set of poems in the eyes of those who feel that god's jalaal side should be manifest and apparent in god's words. So the question here is.... 1) if prophet muhaamed received the word of god through the angel gabriel because dealing directly with allah is too hard/impossible...then where does sufi poetry fit in? if it is believed to be fluff...then we sikhs are clumped in with that group 2) moses was given the 10 commandments but he supposedly underwent physical shock upon seeing the burning bush (unless it is metaphoric for something greater). If the guru's experienced god in the same manner...what was the physical ramification 3) if jesus christ wrote the bible, was it divinely inspired or was it passed through an angel. Was Guru Nanak dev ji and the other 9 patshah's in divine states when gurbani was written... my reasoning for this question...maj mahala 5....this was written by guru arjun devji prior to him becoming guru..(the letters from lahore). from raihraas sahib "har ke jan, satgur, satpurkha..binao karo gur ..." this shabad according to uthanka was the 'daaj' that bhai jayta asked for when compelled before guru amar das ji....right after the marriage to bibi bhani ji we have many paradigms, many little tid bit facts, and a whole theological misconception which needs to be addressed in answering this question, I will find time to try to answer this...can someone help with addressing some of these questions? regards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 you dont need to be a Guru to talk divine words. Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj was chosen because his spiritual level was as high as the Guru's EVEN BEFORE he became Guru, so God could also have talked through his mouth before he was officially taken in as Guru Maharaj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Someone told me that only the first verse was a "relevation" from God, and that everything else that follows is from Guru Nanak Dev Ji himself... Is this false? If so, how much is exactly from God? Truth is what is written, Truth is what was revealed by the 10 Gurus and the Masters who walked this Earth. If you use the word Truth instead of God, you'd find the answer in your own question. The question would lose its personification. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloco Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Gurbani is Brahm vichar - All of Guru Granth Sahib is derived from 'Waheguru' and the Mool Mantar and is an elaboration of these mantars. Maybe thats what they meant. According to Sikhi a bhrahmgiani is the same as God, Guru Nanak Devji was Bhrahmgiani at the least ...I would say that your question fails to acknowledge this fact. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawrof Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 you dont need to be a Guru to talk divine words. Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj was chosen because his spiritual level was as high as the Guru's EVEN BEFORE he became Guru, so God could also have talked through his mouth before he was officially taken in as Guru Maharaj First and foremost thank you for sharing. I will not flame anyone, I will pose challenging questions so we can have a bout of intellectual gymnastics. There is a sakhi that says that guru amardas ji had foreshadowed guru arjun dev ji's guruship by saying "dohita, baani ka bohita"...the question here lies in whether sikhi is about creating brahmgyani's or whether sikhi is about creating sikhs. Nimrata and sharda are required for one to be a brahmgyani so the question may seem rhetorical. my question really is....was arjun mal REALLY as spiritual as the guru's ahead of time? does that mean that bhagats were too? what would be the distinguishing factor between a guru and a sikh who is meant to be guru, and if that is the case (meaning, sikhi is about being a brahmgyani)...why would one need to follow the guru therein? my response: spiritual inclination and guru avtar are 2 points of the same spectrum....nearly opposite ends though, one is a leaning away from maya into something greater, and the second is full realization with/without a mission (can't fully share because I haven't had the brain to understand this yet). If guru arjun sahib was a guru avatar, could more than one be present at any time, and what kala's did he show to exemplify it, in his youth that is (prior to guruship). Truth is what is written, Truth is what was revealed by the 10 Gurus and the Masters who walked this Earth. If you use the word Truth instead of God, you'd find the answer in your own question. The question would lose its personification. again, brilliant answers and I always look forward to reading what you have to say. The question isn't one of personification I believe, the mental aptitude to sustain such a thought is beyond that of the normal individual. In a way it mirrors the reality but the mirror is like a reflection in water which gets skewed when you throw a rock in, because the mirror isn't constructed out of one's own experience. If it is out of own's own experience, then your point is a true reflection. Ideologically everything has truth, now does everything reflect that truth or reveal it is a different question. In every bir of guru granth sahib ji, we have paper which has writing on it, that writing is written with the same ink throughout the bir. We know gurbani is beyond words, but the question comes down to whether gurbani is a) something that is mystic in itself and a connection to god something that is mystic and points to god c) something that has flown from the same divinity that was manifest and in full expression within the gurus Gurbani is Brahm vichar - All of Guru Granth Sahib is derived from 'Waheguru' and the Mool Mantar and is an elaboration of these mantars. Maybe thats what they meant. According to Sikhi a bhrahmgiani is the same as God, Guru Nanak Devji was Bhrahmgiani at the least ...I would say that your question fails to acknowledge this fact. thank you for the response. you have mentioned interesting things 1) define brahm; 2) define vichar...it'll contextualise what brahm vichar is. One can then differentiate then, whether gurbani is brahm or just an avenue for vichar... 3) I have heard that all of gurbani is a manifestation of waheguru, which would mean like many of the jatha's in our panth say that naam simran is of optimum importance, which would then also help others understand why certain sections of the panth are very insistent on the absolute best candidates for 5 pyaray, and the meticulous details of amrit sanchar and the methods etc (Ie. naam drir)...because then it makes sense that gurbani is itself the explanation of waheguru...my only concern here is that the exegesis of gurbani actually goes into the nitty gritty and traditional sikh sources such as bhai gurdas ji's vaaran talk about practice and principles....it is more poetic in nature than it is descriptive. Ie. gurbani explains letters and their derived meanings in bavan akhree, a little bit in oangar (dakhni) etc...but not all of guru sahibs bani is constantly reiterating those points. I think it has been mentioned that guru nanak was a guru avtar, so the question then comes back to my point originally, is sikhi just about becoming a brahmgyani or is it about becoming a sikh....... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 again, brilliant answers and I always look forward to reading what you have to say. The question isn't one of personification I believe, the mental aptitude to sustain such a thought is beyond that of the normal individual. In a way it mirrors the reality but the mirror is like a reflection in water which gets skewed when you throw a rock in, because the mirror isn't constructed out of one's own experience. If it is out of own's own experience, then your point is a true reflection. Ideologically everything has truth, now does everything reflect that truth or reveal it is a different question. In every bir of guru granth sahib ji, we have paper which has writing on it, that writing is written with the same ink throughout the bir. We know gurbani is beyond words, but the question comes down to whether gurbani is a) something that is mystic in itself and a connection to god something that is mystic and points to god c) something that has flown from the same divinity that was manifest and in full expression within the gurus You are beautiful my friend.... Words themselves are empty of the 'thing' that they represent, they are merely pointers towards those things. Just as the word Water will not quinch your thirst, instead must seek that liquid that is called water to quinch your thirst. The word Waheguru can be spoken in the same respect....repeating it as a word will not give you anything, but if your allow your mind and heart to fully invoke the response that this Word is trying to point towards....revolutions happen, Silence erupts within. So the Words in the Guru Granth Sahib are pointers, hints, arrows, that speak of the connection to God and they point towards God. And these words carry such sharpness of arrows that whosoever is struck with them cannot help but seek the source of those words. From where did these words flow from....these poetic sparks when sung with the love of ones heart and mind will light the way of your journey and carry you into your ownself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
challenge_everything Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 amrit baani har har teri. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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