SAadmin Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Just saw this article, was shocked to read this allegations against namdhari panth, how true is this? can respected namdhari members of this forum please verify this section in bold? UK Gurdwaras Insult Guru Sahib by promoting Naamdhari Cult Wednesday 21st of February 2007 Panthic Weekly News Bureau United Kingdom - Earlier this month, Panthic Weekly exposed (see Naamdharis Performing Keertan at Gurdwaras) the intentional distortion of Gurbaani by Naamdhari Keertanis who are currently touring the UK after members of the UK Sangat who heard their Keertan highlighted the beadbi. Naamdhari Baljeet Singh and Gurmeet Singh misread a word in Aasa Ki Vaar. When challenged by two Sikh ladies sitting in a UK Gurdwara where these Keertanis were performing Keertan they justified their beadbi (violation) of Gurbaani by saying that their "Guru" (referring to Jagjit Sinh) said that "phaaray" (torn) as stated in Aasa Ki Vaar in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is actually "pehiray" (worn). Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji's eldest son Sri Ram Rai had needless enmity with the eight and ninth Gurus and appointed his own Masands. He changed a line in the holy Gurbani just to please the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb, changing "Mittee musalmaan kee…" (soil is of the Muslim…) to "Mittee beimaan kee…" (soil is of the deceitful…). The seventh Satguru discarded Sri Ram Rai from the house of the Guru forever, because he altered Gurbani. Satguru said: ਜਿਨ ਭੈ ਅਦਬ ਨ ਬਾਨੀ ਧਾਰਾ । ਜਾਨਹੁ ਸੋ ਸਿਖ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਮਾਰਾ । 20 । "Those who do not fear and respect Gurbani, cannot be a Sikh of mine." (Sri Guru Partap Suraj Granth) We must remember Seventh Nanak, Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji, disowned his own son and excommunicated him from the Panth after he intentionally distorted one word from Gurbani. However, today's Gurdwara Management Committees are allowing those who don't believe Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be on the throne of Guru Nanak, who believe that their self-proclaimed Satguru is the 15th incarnation of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, practice Havans and Bipran Kee Reet, and intentionally distort a word in Gurbani to perform Keertan on our Gurdwara because they have knowledge of Gurmat Sangeet. Does knowledge of Gurmat Sangeet and Raag give one license to perform Keertan irrespective that they are corrupt fraudsters who believe intentionally and unapologetically distort Sikh history, Sikh principles and most seriously Gurbani, the Word of God? Anyone who allows Naamdharis to perform Keertan on the Gurdwara Stage is liable for the same punishment for allowing the followers of Ram Rai perform Keertan on the Guru's stage. Gurbani says: ਕੋਈ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਗੀ ਨਾਦੀ ਬੇਦੀ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਭੀਜੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥ Some sing of the Lord, through Raags (musical measures) and the sound current of the Naad, through the Vedas, and in so many ways. But the Lord, Har, Har, is not pleased by these, O Lord King. ਜਿਨਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਪਟੁ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਤਿਨਾ ਰੋਇ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ Those who are filled with fraud and corruption within - what good does it do for them to cry out? ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਰੋਗ ਹਥੁ ਦੀਜੈ ॥ The Creator Lord knows everything, although they may try to hide their sins and the causes of their diseases. ਜਿਨਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਲੀਜੈ ॥4॥11॥18॥ O Nanak, those Gurmukhs whose hearts are pure, obtain the Lord, Har, Har, by devotional worship. ||4||11||18|| (Ang 450) Is the insult by Naamdharis towards Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee just limited to distortion of history, principles and Gurbani? No. In the 1940's the Naamdhari Guru Partap Singh started the practice called a 'Pattar Paath'. This was in imitation of the Gursikh Akhand Paath but what was particularly odious about it was that it entailed the Angs of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji being torn out and then passed to a number of Paathis (Scriptural readers) and the Patah then being done at the same time by 10-15 people. As a result the Paath was completed in a few hours. Then these Angs were burnt! Sri Akaal Takht Sahib warned Partap Singh about this violation of the sanctity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. However, the 'Pattar Paaths' were only stopped after the Sikhs protested and Panthic Nihang Singhs threatened to kill Partap Singh. The following UK Gurdwaras have advertised and promoted the Naamdhari Keertanis and therefore insulted Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by allowing the followers of self-proclaimed Satguru who claims to be the rightful owner of Guru Nanak's throne and who intentionally and unapologetically distort Gurbani in the presence of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji: Central Gurdwara, Drayton Bridge Road, West Ealing Guru Amar Dass Gurdwara, Clifton road, Southall Ramgharia Gurdwara, Oswald road, Southall Guru Nanak Darbar, King Street, Southall Guru Nanak Sikh School, Springfield Road, Hayes Sri Guru Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Havelock Road, Southall Gurdwara Karamsar, High Road, Ilford Ramgarhia Gurdwara, Woodland Avenue, Slough Ramgaria Gurdwara, Foleshill Road, Coventry Gurdwara Baba Sang, High Street, Smethwick Gurdwara Babe Ke, Soho Hill, Hockley A Sikh is one who owes sole allegiance to only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the Guru Khalsa Panth. May God bless the Gurdwara Sahib Management Committees with understanding so that they realize their mistake and beg for forgiveness from the Sikh Sangat in the presence of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Guru-Roop Panj Pyaare. May Guru Sahib and generations to come forgive us for welcoming and allowing such Manmat to prevail in the House of Satguru Nanak. Editors can be reached at Editors@panthic.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 serious replies please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 The pattar paath incidents of the naamdharis are well-known, it was only after people like kartar Singh Jhabbar and such threatened physical force did it stop. What the kirtani said which was not right, there must be some clairification. Why not put up the whole line and state what exactly they said wrong, so we have more of an idea of we are debating. chatanga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 This is bs as usual. Pattar Path involved 'disassembling', not tearing, of Granth Sahib and no pages were burnt. They were, and did, get reassembled after the path. These people have no shame in lying. On this very forum there has been gross distortion of Sakhi of Satguru Jagjit Singhji's blessing the UK with rain in the 70's and it was totally distorted by the singh sabhias as well. Lack of Guru seems to equal lack of fear of God in general. Singh Sabhias burn Granth Sahib as a whole on daily basis. Why has nothing been said about them? So many old Granth Sahibs are in the hands of britishers and their libraries today, who were the tyar-bar-tyar singhs that paid homage to the british with those Granths? This is just plain bs but people with blind hatred continue to spread the lies. Also these ppeople need to realize Granth Sahib does not belong to kattar-panthis alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 FYI - The burning of Granth Sahib by singh sabhias that I'm referring to is not metaphorical. Do a search on the internet for 'Saskar of Granth Sahib'. In the Namdhari Panth, the priceless Granth Sahibs of Satguru Ram Singh Ji and numerous other old Birs are still well preserved and can be referred to today, yet the non-Namdharis who criticize us and cry 'beadbi beadbi' seems to be quite incapable of looking after Granth Sahibs that are just a few years old and burn their own Guru that they claim to be eternal on a regular basis. How is anyone supposed to take these jokers seriously? LOL.. These little children try to act like they know stuff and quote Suraj Parkash. LOLLLL... Suraj Parkash itself says Guru Gobind Singh changed the Tuk in Granth Sahib... I have also written this in another thread ...LOLLLL... So tell me N30Singhji, how can you want a serious answer to a question that does not exist? :lol: As the Granth Sahib states: Jis Ander Taat Parai Hove, Tis Da Kade Na Hove Bhala. So these people who harbor senseless hatred shall never live in peace as per the Guru's Hukam in the Granth Sahibji. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybersingh Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 LOL.........news bulletin from Panthic.org and Brahmgyani 108/111 mahatapasvi Sachkhand Nivasi Shakti Shaali Maha Bali chatanga ji.....and everyone listens to them..........LOL............great.........live your life by the word of panthic.org and chatanga but not by Gurbani................ this is all BS as Fatehsingh has mentioned....From what I know and what my nana has experienced in his life, Pattra Path is when a sangat collectively does a sehaj paath by sharing pattars by each person or family. For eg. one family will say that we will do 100 angs of paath and another says we will do 200 etc..............not what these "brahmgyani's" say...one's that don't even do rehiras, chaupai, jaap, jap ji, anand sahib as prescribed by Akal Takhat as part of morning nitnem....oh well......i'm no better than RSS, ABC, OPP, XYZ...hindu paranoia........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 thank you cyber singh however the taering of angs by the naamdharis to do patra paaths was comon news and observed by a lot of Sikhs. finally they decided to do summat about it. maybe how you describe it is how it may actually have started, but the reason it was stoped was because of the reasons i haves mentioned earlier. chatanga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Actually the big deal was made out of this because it was a perfect chance for the crowd that hate Namdharis to insult Namdharis and claim that their Guru was 'decapitated' by unbinding the pages. The process of the Path never changed. Ofcourse by the time you were old enough to know things those with hate agendas twist the story to meet their immediate needs..similar distortions are quite common as previously mentioned.. To me personally I think it was an important event in history that shows us what kind of mentality people really have because it is the people from the same crowd that are today destroying the Granth Sahibs in ways that are irreversible (burning). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybersingh Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Actually the big deal was made out of this because it was a perfect chance for the crowd that hate Namdharis to insult Namdharis and claim that their Guru was 'decapitated' by unbinding the pages. The process of the Path never changed. Ofcourse by the time you were old enough to know things those with hate agendas twist the story to meet their immediate needs..similar distortions are quite common as previously mentioned.. To me personally I think it was an important event in history that shows us what kind of mentality people really have because it is the people from the same crowd that are today destroying the Granth Sahibs in ways that are irreversible (burning). Bro.....I have an eyewitness update from that era which should clarify doubts unless people are too high on " Mahaparshaad", then i can't help you....LOL............ From what I have been given as info is that there is no record of any namdhari "ripping up angs of ASGGS"....Pattar Paath is when pattaray (pages) were given to the sangat as there was no binding on the full saroop. All bindings were done in Amritsar. All old saroops that namdhari's were in possession of were given at Amritsar for full sanskaar....During the 1940's era, no other publishers were allowed to print or bind saroops except for SGPC so all saroops were given to SGPC. Namdhari's that couldn't read were given small pattaray for a sehaj paath from an old saroop before it was given at amritsar to read it until they can get it kanth. if anyone can remember history correctly, was it not guru ram singh who went from home to home, took out old saroops that people had put in their bookshelves or wherever and used his own dastaar to wipe off the dust and got people to do paath from ASGGS?... is the not respect? hmmm....i don't see people these days doing this....rather they use it like a tool for business......(ie......Guru Granth Sahib campaign where people would the saroop to banquet halls etc....) I don't know of namdhari's doing this. Before making any accusations......(ie...when you make assumptions...you always make an ASS out of U and ME...ASS-U-ME)... always ask before making assumptions, saves a lot of headaches........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 <<<Anyone who allows Naamdharis to perform Keertan on the Gurdwara Stage is liable for the same punishment for allowing the followers of Ram Rai perform Keertan on the Guru's stage. >>> I guess we all know what the AK-47 (Gosh! You have to love that name, boys with their toys!!! Talk about compensation complex!!!) and the R4G campaigners next line of "parchar" and attack will be... Watch out...the "Khalsa Police" are in town!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Bhai Ram Singh was a true gursikh. He always held the Guru Granth as Guru, and never afforded the title of Guru on himnself.Bhai Ram Singh also apologised at Akal Takht for his supporters calling him Guru. Bhai Ram Singh knew he wasnt the Guru of the Sikhs. His supporters in order to keep his kurbani alive invented history ofGuru Gobind Singh giving Gurgaddi to Bhai Balak Singh. Invention being the key word. Bahi Ram Singh fought for Sikh Panth. How many Namdharis continue this traditon. None. Like Hanspal they are all congress supporters. What have they given the Panth in the last 25/50 years, except lies and invented history. Two main liars Alam and Chakrvati on at least 2 occasion debated the Bahi Ram Singh is guru fabrication with gursikhs from the panth including the Taksal and Budha Dal, and both times they were unable to convince anyone with their reasoning , which was proved rubbish. But they wanted a high status for Bhai Ram Singh so they carried on with thier lies. did Bhai Partap Singh ever denounce the burning of the Guru Granth Sahib at Chando Kalan? Or the other desecrations of Guru Granth Sahib by the nirankari gurbachan who put his foot on Guru Maharaj? Or many other acts of desecration in the late 1970s / early 1980s. Bhai Ram Singh would have deffo done something about it. He would have been first in line to take beatings for the maintaining the sanctity of Guru Granth Sahib. He would have given his life but never allowed this desecration to happen. Bhai Ram Singh is a hero, a yodha , but dont try to make him inot something he isnt. As for Bhai Partap Singh his inaction over the last 30 years has proved he donesnt have half the qualities of Sikhi that Bhai Ram Singh had.Bahi Ram Singh most probably would have been ashamed of Bhai Pratap Singh. chatanga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Admin's Note: Please refrain from personal attacks, debate the message not the messenger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Hey Fateh please dont get personal. chatanga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 hey chatt, Few things.. firstly Guru Ram Singh never aplogised to Akal Takhat. We're not a bunch of ppl who don't know our own history.. thanks for ur concern but regurgitating stuff from dr. ganda singh's books will not make u look smart infront of any Namdhari.. rather extremely stupid and illiterate.. secondly how would u feel if I say Granth Sahib is ashamed of ur panth guru or panj pyare guru or whoever/whatever u believe to be the other part of ur Guru? let's use respect and engage brain before typing.. and then u start crying not to get personal! thirdly Sant Inder Singh Chakkarvarti and Sant Nidhan Singh Alam's books were ALWAYS 'responses' to the criticism started by some insecure person from the anti-namdhari gang.. so I don't know y u feel we don't have the right to defend ourselves.. name one time Namdharis wrote a book questioning authority of Granth/panth Guru without any provocation from the other side.. I honestly cannot recall and u know too little to know anything anyways.. fourthly Namdharis r not responsible for the desecrtion of Granth Sahib by Nirankaris or singh sabhias themselves.. y r u asking us to condemn or support either side? Same thing with 1984.. there's always some dumb-nut that ask dumb questions like 'where were the Namdharis?'... let's use common sense.. 1984 was between Bhindrawala and Indra Gandhi...a lot of mainstream sikhs do not like bhindrawala either ..r they not sikhs?.. is buddhadal not sikh?.. so unless u can prove Namdharis gave GOI the cannons ... like how the anti-namdhari sikh maharajas gave cannons to blow up Namdharis in 1872... I suggest u be fair and don't get high on soda-pop.. lastly... I don't know y u r so bitter with Namdharis.. maybe ur ex ran away with a Namdhari.. I don't know I don't care... but ur just slinging mud for no reason... act ur age boy!.. y r u spewing hate for no reason? AK47 4EVA!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Banda Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 see its times like this when hate and anger flows through the blood of gurseekz, that the whole maryada of consuming degh till everyone is happy or asleep makes perfect sense.. No wonder in the times of the first 10 Gurus everything was amazing in sikhi.. coz they all had degh to make it amazing. Chill out make some tea.. degh tea.. good discussion very eye opening before the anger and hate flooded in.. so shhhhh no more fighting. ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 ppl like chattanga are among the worst when it comes to reasoning with... coz they don't have any sense of respect for others.. they just enjoy acting like babas (OH NO!.. isn't that.. DEHDHARI!!!!??) who knows everything and wants to control everyone's faith.. Let's analyze this topic to prove this point... N30Singh came running with a Maha Beadbi Alert.... chattanga went crazy.. oh yay baby!! dem kookayz need another round of insulting!... I clarified that it's all bs and false propaganda... chattanga doesn't give up.. comes up with theory that it was 'well known event'.. cybersingh got first hand info from people who were actually old enough to know how things went down... chattanga comes up with another theory: 'no no no no no... that maybe how it started but later it changed!'... I clarified further that there was never any change.. Granth Sahib was never ripped or burnt... chattanga tries to play CBI lawyer and ask dumb questions like how long it takes to rebind the Granth Sahib... cybersingh gets more info from witness of the time and clarifies that binding was sent to be done in Amritsar.... chattanga feels sad that Namdharis didn't do anything wrong and now starts his dumb mud-slinging as a way to 'get equal' for me and cybersingh disproving his dumb theories... now chattanga has even gone as low and desperate as using Hanspal as a meter to judge Namdharis!... yeah.. like I'll take a hint from Hanspal when Badal is recognized as a Gurseeekz geeza and representative of an Akali... :lol: i pity the fool who can't differentiate what's politician and what's religious person... this is just like how any reasonable 34 year-old should act! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 oh sorry.. forgot to mention the part when then TBT Dynamic Bandar (r <-- added as per chattanga's suggestion ).. comes out at the end and crack a joke! Happy Ending! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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