Kharag Singh Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 Punjab has its first Sikh lesbian marriage Punjab Newsline Network Tuesday, 19 June 2007 AMRITSAR: Two Sikh girls of a border town of Punjab have repeated the history of two lesbian girls Raju and Mala of Amritsar, infamous for soleminising Punjab's first lesbian marriage. Baljit Kaur and Rajwinder Kaur of Batala town of Gurdaspur distirct have however became first Sikh girls of Punjab to eprform the lesbian marraige. They on Tuesday came to Golden Temple here to seek blessings. They had no regrets and no worry of the social stigma on they will carry for rest of their life. " we do not care. We love each other and will die for each other'', they told media. The Raju-Mala marriage had broken after few months when Mala fell in love with a boy few months after their marriage. Baljit and Rajwinder are running for shelter since families of both of them are aafter their blood.They belonged to Jat Sikh families where honour killings are common. Interestingly, the female sex ratio in Punjab is falling over the years due to foeticide and lesbian marriage has stirred anew controversy. Akal Takht Jathedar Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti has condemned lesbian marriages in Sikh religion. Baljit appeard before meida dressed as boy with black goggles and Rajwinder, wearing salwar-kameez and `churrah' (wedding bangles) rubbed shoulders with her sould mate. They were frank to tell that both of them do not like boys. ``Boys are cheaters and we girls trust each other''. They said that they had see anought of male dominated world and now want to live their own life. Baljit, 21, and Rajwinder, 20, are educated till 10+2 had eloped from home two week ago. ``We stayed at a friend's house at Morinda and then went to Katra in Jammu and Kashmir and Vaishno Devi where, after paying obeisance, we married with help of an Army officer Kuldeep Raj'', Baljit explained. ``We have demanded security as our family members have threatened to kill us'', said Baljit. She said that it was second time that she had fallen in love with a girl. The first love remained unsuccessful, she added. She said that they would soon approach court for security. Baljit said Rajwinder met at job placement office where later had come to search for the job. ``We are distant relatives also. When I saw her first I felt like touching her'', said Baljit. When reminded of Akal Takht `Hukamnama' (edict) denouncing the single sex marriages, they said they do not care and just want the religious leaders and society to let them live together and live their life. ``We have visited Golden Temple and prayed to God for our well-being and successful marriage. They would like to adopt a child, if law permitted, they added. i personally dont have a problem as manas ki jaat ek pehchaan and right of free will as the girls havent cheated anyone nor have they commited a crime. what are the scholars of this forum's view? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 very good. the self is beyond the sthul sareer. I don't understand what right the Akal Takhat has over the personal relationships of individuals. Their views are entirely based on reactionary moral values rather than any stipulations of gurbani, thus they have no authority on such issues. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 the akal takht dont wanna see this become a common thing, thats why they are trying to supress it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted July 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 how bad is that, this is dictatorship! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 Well a classic example to illustrate my point: Sikhi doesn't have an exoteric law precisely because it's not it's function. It doesn't have a shari'a. For that aspect one either relies on common Hindu law if one has Hindu ancestry or shari'a of one is a Nanakshahi Muslim. Needless to say: I am against single sex marriages. If you're a woman who like women simple: get an operation! TSingh's argument makes sense: if the mind does not identify with the gender of the body...but i don't agree with his conclusions... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 Javanmard ji, what is the "Hindu" law on this subject? Also, could you please quote the clear sharia on this subject as per the Koran. In my opinion, the sacred institution of real marriage"as per the said faith" should be respected as per traditions and examples stemming from the times of the originators of the faith. Maharaj does show man-woman relations to be the norm: mehlaa 1. First Mehl: ਭੰਡਿ ਜੰਮੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਨਿੰਮੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਮੰਗਣੁ ਵੀਆਹੁ ॥ bhand jammee-ai bhand nimmee-ai bhand mangan vee-aahu. From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married. ਭੰਡਹੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਭੰਡਹੁ ਚਲੈ ਰਾਹੁ ॥ bhandahu hovai dostee bhandahu chalai raahu. Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come. ਭੰਡੁ ਮੁਆ ਭੰਡੁ ਭਾਲੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਬੰਧਾਨੁ ॥ bhand mu-aa bhand bhaalee-ai bhand hovai banDhaan. When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound. and; ਮਃ ੩ ॥ mehlaa 3. Third Mehl: ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ॥ Dhan pir ayhi na aakhee-an bahan ikthay ho-ay. They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together. ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ ayk jot du-ay moortee Dhan pir kahee-ai so-ay. ||3|| They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies. ||3|| Regarding legal marriage, this is different issue, and one that should not be dictated by Sikhs, as it concerns people of all demoninations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 Fine but it that verse doesn't talk about the legality of the marriage issue or does it talk about the modality of marriage, nor about other legal issues regarding marriage. There is in fact a lack of precise legal instructions on marriage, heritage, divorce (or non divorce) etc hence why one has to refer to the legal sources I mentioned above depending on one's exoteric denomination. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 Javanmard ji, what is the "Hindu" law on this subject? Also, could you please quote the clear sharia on this subject as per the Koran. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 The 'laws' and 'morals' critique of Sikhi misses the point. When its fundamental aim is mystical experience (or the nominal pursuit of it), 'immoral' acts are simply those at any given time which hinder such experience. That avoids the problems semitic traditions have of moral stipulations that become ridiculously outmoded. It keeps things fluid and is more a top down model, and considering the problems with the morality driven by fear that Neitzsche identified, it works on more of a marriage of ontological and teleological models of Kant and Mill. Of course, it does however require people to think before they act which is always a problem for some (guv springs to mind), and not a problem necessarily encountered in other traditions where people are conditioned into shunning things without really knowing why. On the lesbian thing, well I didn't mean that they renounce the body, I meant that their identities are deeper than the body. Plus its very much a male thing to reduce all female experience to issues of control and sexuality. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted July 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 marriage is the union of two souls, now i dont think that a soul is bound by a gender but it is an energy which cannot be created or destroyed as by newtons law which therefore continues to transfer through many vessels through the cycle of reincarnation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 tsingh, this mystical experience that you talk about, can youexplain what this means? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted July 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 mystical experience i think is experiencing the spirit of God, as many muslims believe that union with god is only after death and judgement suffi muslims believe that it is possible to experience Gods presence while still alive where the experience will be ineffable, transient, passive and noetic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 If they can't have babies then why bother, get the "new gender bender" feature installed on your body, lol I don't think it should be allowed and as the goray would say, it's not Adam and Steve it was Adam and Eve LOL 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted July 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 ghrist jeevan doesnt nesecerely mean to have kids, its about living with your soul mate in society, and live in society unlike sanyasis etc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 mystical experience i think is experiencing the spirit of God, as many muslims believe that union with god is only after death and judgement suffi muslims believe that it is possible to experience Gods presence while still alive where the experience will be ineffable, transient, passive and noetic. and the hindus and sikhs? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 ghrist jeevan doesnt nesecerely mean to have kids, its about living with your soul mate in society, and live in society unlike sanyasis etc then what's the point of God making two genders? must be a reason? think brother no being sarcastic or anything yeah, just being straight in what i believe and im sayin..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 come on chatanga, I thought you knew the point of gurbani! Every shabad is either describing the means to, the experience of or the result of 'meeting the beloved' and as Guru Nanak Dev states, this takes place by your own efforts (rather than after death or being given). As 'water merges with water' as Guru Arjun Dev states. Likewise the Khalsa is meant to be outwardly and inwardly pure, meaning pavittar in its antahkaran as much as in its outward dharmic actions. Amrik Singh, does all human relationship come back to the sexual act? For you what is the key component of an intimate human relationship, the sex or the emotional relationship? We've even had Sufis in the past who were openly gay - Sarmad shaheed springs to mind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Of course, it does however require people to think before they act which is always a problem for some (guv springs to mind), and not a problem necessarily encountered in other traditions where people are conditioned into shunning things without really knowing why. I always think before I act!!!... except when I don't. I take offence to your accusations & I curse you... may you be reborn as a lesbian!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 just a quick question, was sarmad fakir married? i know this has been discussed before on this forum but i cannot find the topic anymore, can someone please tell me whats the story behind sarmad fakir? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Well the sources seem contradictory. Some say he was openly gay others hat he practised the platonic contemplation of beauty in a young Hindu man. In any case TSingh just because Sarmad did this doesn't make homosexuality right. A Sufi is to follow the example of the Prophet (pbuh) and the Prophet did not indulge in such practises. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 There is reported to be a very explicit statement of him 'lying naked in a bed' with his hindu lover while in the sindh before their move to delhi in one collection of anecdotes from his life. I can't remember is he was married. I'm pretty certain the prophet didn't do quite a few of the things Sufis have done in the past, I don't think that diminishes from their state. If I'm not mistaken the 'you should follow the prophet's example' was the argument on which Aurangzeb and his Qazi got Sarmad cut to pieces at Jami Masjid in new delhi wasn't it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Yes it was that very reason but we all know the real reason don't we...The Turani party getting rid of the Irani party. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 His dargah at the bottom of the steps of Jami Masjid is so small, humble and beautiful...Sriiii Hazrat Sarmad Shaheed Maharaaaaaj Kiiiiii Jaaaaaiiiiii hoooooo!!! a short article on him http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=...eafyglade%20inn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Well I prefer Dara Shukoh... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 sarmad was killed cos he was gay? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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