Guest Javanmard Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Him being gay was the excuse the real reason was his support for the Irai party. Mind you he would have met the same fate in Safavi Iran... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 can i ask why if he was known to be gay he has a dargah next to the biggest or well-known masjid in india? i ask this cos Bulleh Shah was refused burial inthe graveyard becuse he was termed a kaffir and so was buried somewhere else. but the clerics allowed sarmad , a known gay to have daragh at Jamia Masjid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Males and females have different but compleementary energies in their bodies. Although the soul doesn't have a gender, the body in which the soul is given for this janam does. I think people should respect it as God's will and abstain from homosexual relations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla1.htm The Qur'an and Homosexuality: There are many references in the Qur'an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with effeminate men and "masculine women." The five references which seem to refer specifically same-sex behavior are: Sura 4:20-21: "Against those of your women who commit adultery, call witnesses four in number from among yourselves; and if these bear witness, then keep the women in houses until death release them, or God shall make for them a way. And if two (men) of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate." 1 Some translations of the Qur'an call for the long-term or permanent house arrest of women guilty of adultery -- they are to be confined to "houses of death." An accurate translation is that their husband (or their parent or guardian) is to keep them -- not abandon them. Also, if they repent of their sin, God will accept their repentance. 5 It is worth noting that a woman can only be found guilty if four witnesses testify against her. Verse 21 seems to call for physical punishment for men who engage in same-sex activity, followed by their release if they abandon the practice. Verse 24:2 calls for a man or woman guilty of adultery or fornication to be flogged 100 times. Sura 7:80-84: "And Lot, when he said to his people, 'Do ye approach an abomination which no one in all the world ever anticipated you in? Verily, ye approach men with lust rather than women- nay, ye are a people who exceed.' But his people's answer only was to say, 'Turn them out of your village, verily, they are a people who pretend to purity.' But we saved him and his people, except his wife, who was of those who lingered; and we rained down upon them a rain; -- see then how was the end of the sinners!" This describes the destruction of Sodom. Lot accuses the men of Sodom of engaging in homosexual behavior, only to have his message rejected. God saved Lot and his family and killed the other inhabitants of Sodom, presumably for their homosexual activities. Sura 11:78-81: "And his people came to him, rushing at him, for before that they used to work evil. He 'Said, 'O my people! here are my daughters, they are purer for you; then, fear God, and do not disgrace me through my guests;- is there not among you one right-thinking man?' They said, 'Thou knowest that we have no claim on thy daughters; verily, thou knowest what we want!' He said, 'Had I but power over you; or could I but resort to some strong column....!' [The angels] said, 'O Lot! verily, we are the messengers of thy Lord, they shall certainly not reach thee; then travel with thy people in the darkness of the night, and let none of you look round except thy wife: verily, there shall befall her what befalls them. Verily, their appointment is for the morning! and is not the morning nigh'?" This describes another incident associated with the destruction of Sodom when Lot offered his two virgin daughters, instead of the angels, to be raped by the men of Sodom. The angels told Lot to escape from the city before dawn because the city would be destroyed in the morning, presumably because of their homosexual activity. Sura 26: 162-168: "[Lot said] 'Verily, I am to you a faithful apostle; then fear God and obey me. I do not ask you for it any hire; my hire is only with the Lord of the worlds. Do ye approach males of all the world and leave what God your Lord has created for you of your wives? nay, but ye are people who transgress!' They said, 'Surely, if thou dost not desist, O Lot! thou shalt be of those who are expelled!' Said he, 'Verily, I am of those who hate your deed." Here, Lot criticizes the men of Sodom for abandoning their wives and engaging in sex with other males. The men respond with a threat to expel Lot from the city. Sura 27: 55-57 and Sura 29: 28-31: "And (remember) Lot when he said to his people, 'Verily, ye approach an abomination which no one in all the world ever anticipated you in! What! do ye approach men? and stop folks on the highway? And approach in your assembly sin?' but the answer of his people was only to say, 'Bring us God's torment, if thou art of those who speak the truth!' Said he, 'My Lord! help me against a people who do evil!' And when our messengers came to Abraham with the glad tidings, they said, 'We are about to destroy the people of this city. Verily, the people thereof are wrong-doers'." Again, Lot criticizes the men of Sodom for their same-sex behavior. The men challenge God to bring on the destruction. These verses relate to male same-sex activities. As in the Hebrew Scriptures, lesbian practices are not mentioned in the Qur'an. Comparison of the Qur'an and Hebrew Scriptures concerning Sodom: Four of the above five quotations from the Qur'an are linked to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. This is also covered in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah at Genesis 19 of the Hebrew Scriptures (a.k.a. Old Testament by Christians). Lot is referred to as "Lut" in the Qur'an. The Qur'an links the sin of Sodom (the reason for its destruction) to the general bisexual activities of the men of Sodom. That is, they freely engaged in both same-sex behavior with each other, and opposite-sex behavior with their wives. The Hebrew Scriptures appear to differ. They link the destruction to two happenings: The attempts by the men of Sodom to rape the angels. The insensitivity of the people of Sodom to the plight of the widows, orphaned children, visitors, and poor as described in other verses in the Hebrew Scriptures. Genesis 19 does not suggest that the men of Sodom were bisexual and frequently engaged in homosexual activities. It is perhaps ironic that the conservative Christian interpretation more closely resembles the content of the Qur'an than the Bible. The Hadith and homosexuality: The Hadith are collections of sayings attributed to Muhammad. IslamOnline.net records a fatwa (religious ruling) concerning an Iranian man who had been convicted of raping and then killing his 16-year-old nephew. The fatwa does not appear to differentiate between consensual homosexuality and homosexual rape; both are linked to adultery. Their ruling stated: "Homosexuality, moreover, is an abomination and a grave sin. In Hadith, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, clarifies the gravity of this abomination by saying: "Allah curses the one who does the actions (homosexual practices) of the people of Lut." repeating it three times; and he said in another Hadith: "If a man comes upon a man then they are both adulterers." Here, he considered homosexuality tantamount to adultery in relation to the Shari’ah punishments because it is an abomination on the one hand and the definition of adultery applies to it on the other hand.....As for lesbians, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said about them: 'If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both Adulteresses'." 2 Other Hadiths also discuss liwat (gay sexual activity) and Sihaq (lesbian sexual activity). "When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes." "Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to." "Sihaq (lesbian sexual activity) of women is zina (illegitimate sexual intercourse) among them." Traditionalist orthodox Muslims generally claim that the Hadith literature contains the authentic sayings of Muhammad. Many liberal Muslims doubt the authenticity of at least some of them. The latter suggest that during the times of the first Caliphs, Muslims did not know what to do with individuals guilty of "liwat/lutiyya". No sahabi (companion) of Muhammad could quote a saying or decision of Muhammad relating to this question. Treatment of homosexuals within Islamic countries: According to a pamphlet produced by Al-Fatiha, there is a consensus among Islamic scholars that all humans are naturally heterosexual. Homosexuality is seen by scholars to be a sinful and perverted deviation from the norm. 3 All Islamic schools of thought and jurisprudence consider gay acts to be unlawful. The Companions of Prophet Muhammad held various views concerning punishment. The fatwa cited by IslamOnline.net states: "....this led to different views maintained by Muslim Jurists. For example: In the Hanafi school of thought, the homosexual is punished through harsh beating, and if he/she repeats the act, death penalty is to be applied. As for the Shafi`i school of thought, the homosexual receives the same punishment of adultery (if he/she is married) or fornication (if not married). This means, that if the homosexual is married, he/she is stoned to death, while if single, he/she is whipped 100 times. Hence, the Shafi`i compares the punishment applied in the case of homosexuality with that of adultery and fornication, while the Hanafi differentiates between the two acts because in homosexuality, the anus (a place of impurity) may also be involved while in adultery (and fornication), the penis/vagina (which are reproductive parts) are involved. Some scholars hold the opinion that the homosexual should be thrown from a high building as a punishment for his crime, but other scholars maintain that he should be imprisoned until death. 2 The Hanbalite school of law is "...the most conservative school of Islamic jurisprudence." It is widely followed in the Arab world. Its founder, Ahmad ibn Hanbal (780-855 CE): "...argued that human reasoning was not a reliable guide to truth and that the Qur'an and the habitual behavior of Muhammad, literally understood, offered sufficient guidance for later practice. As a result, Hanbalites uniformly urged execution, usually by stoning." 4 Al-Fatiha estimates that 4,000 homosexuals have been executed in Iran since their revolution in 1979. 10 public executions of homosexuals were performed in Afghanistan by the Taliban army. 3 The Taliban were divided on the exact method of execution. Some thought that they should be thrown off the highest building in the city; others suggested that they dig a pit beside a wall, put the convicted in the hole, and topple the wall upon them. 4 From various news reports, they settled on the latter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted July 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 is homosexuality a sin as grave as murder i think not! is it as grave as cheating (ie beymaani) i think not! Only God can do justice of the terrible punishments against homosexuals! Akaaal! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 so Kharag are you saying that homosexuals WILL recieve terrible punishment? and im still waiting for an answer to my ealrier post . anyone please. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted July 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 no im saying that people who punish homosexuals will receive punishment! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 So you're saying that God's prophets will be punished? yeah right... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 can i ask why if Sarmad was known to be gay he has a dargah next to the biggest or well-known masjid in india? i ask this cos Bulleh Shah was refused burial inthe graveyard becuse he was termed a kaffir and so was buried somewhere else. but the clerics allowed sarmad , a known gay to have daragh at Jamia Masjid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted July 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 So you're saying that God's prophets will be punished? yeah right... Guru Nanak didnt even condemn sajan thag, so why would he condemn homosexuals? If being gay for the sex is wrong then so is being heterosexual for the sex! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 So you would be for gay Anand Karaj between two Singhs? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 As Javanmard has highlighted, this is the crux of the discussion. Respecting peoples freedom (esp non Khalsa Sikhs) re lifestyle decisions is one thing, and one that allows the said people to operate/debate within secular law, but allowing a same sex marriage to take place in Gurdwara is a panthic matter - and one that should be agreed and decided by all factions of the Guru-Panth, I don't think the outcome would be surprising. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 So you are saying that fallible mortals have the right to decide over matters only God and his messengers have full knowledge? That's the very definition of heresy... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 I am saying that followers of a faith are accountabel to that faith, and people who aren't followers of any faith, aren't. Ultimately, we are all accountabel to God, but we shouldn't and can't, force our beliefs on others. In case you'v forgotten, you have, and probably still are, enjoying the benefits and opportunities afforded to you within secular countries. The whole world does not operate under your understanding of sharia. Chill out with your blasphemy and heresy accusations, your not the Ayatollah, and your definations and bounderies are not the same as everyone elses. May be learn to use the words "in my opinion". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 Back to the topic... Javanmard, please anwer this: Do you think, that homosexuals should be allowed freedoms to believe in and practice what they like in secular societies like the UK and US? If not, why not, and what scenario would you ideally envisage? Thanks in advance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 Neither you nor I have an "opinion" when God clearly forbids certain acts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 Ok, does God tell you to enforce his law and punish people for these acts? And if so, are you doing so, if not, why not? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 because I am not a judge my friend...ever heard of a law system? This isn't the pind where a panchayat decides to get a woman raped because she sole apples from her own tree. There is a whole process of trial, defense accusation etc.... remember... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 Your avoiding the question, I am not talking about this particular case. Kindly explain, who enforces God and his messengers law? Your comment re "judging" is invlaid, people are openly gay today, a trial does not come into. I ask you again, in a world where people are "openly" gay, and this is a henious crime according to your beliefs, who identifies it as a crime and who administers punishment? What do you think the punishment should be according to your knowledge of Gods laws and his messengers? If you find a way to avoid those questions, then answer this: Do you believe that homosexuals should be punished by death i.e. burying them halfway (men) or up to the head (women) and then the audience stoning them to death? Or if their lucky, beheading or hanging them?..... as happens n Iran You have an opinion on everything else, I don't see why you stop here... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 11, 2007 Report Share Posted July 11, 2007 In Shi'a fiqh hudud cannot be delivered in the absence of Sahib e Zaman (af). Unfortunately the Iranian regime takes it upon itself to act on his behalf whic I don't agree with. But yes I believe that homosexuals if they don't repent from their acts after a proper warning and an opportunity to mend their ways should be executed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted July 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2007 admin cut: you will get your first warning for getting personal, please take it over the pm. pehle patshah didnt even condemn sajan thag to death who commited murders yet you have the dursahas of condemning homosexuals just because they fall in love with the same sex. I pity you and the lord spits on you! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 11, 2007 Report Share Posted July 11, 2007 pehle patshah didnt even condemn sajan thag to death who commited murders So it's ok to murder now just because Baba Nanak Shah didn't condemn Sajjan? Very logical indeed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 11, 2007 Report Share Posted July 11, 2007 Thank you Javanmard, we got there in the end, albeit with an unfortunate, yet predictable conclusion, which in no way reflects the Sikh Gurus' or Sri Guru Granth Sahibs thinking. Next question. As you have now made it clear that you see homosexuality as a henious crime, punishable by death, should you not now cut communications and stop recieving support/education/privileges from secular countries where you have lived (and probably still do) as they promote equality, respect and freedom and even marriage in some cases, for homosexuals? Would it not be hypocritical do be enjoying the benefits of a Goverment who's laws are blasphemous to your religion? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 11, 2007 Report Share Posted July 11, 2007 Well contrarily to you I am of European descent. It is my birth right to live here if I so wish. Just because one doesn't agree with government policies doesn't mean one has to leave one's country. I work in the public service and I am a tax payer in a Catholic country where homosexual unions are NOT recognised. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singho Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Javanmard is right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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