Does God has hands?

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all!

Guru Arjan Dev Jee is singing.

"jee-a jugat jaa kai hai haath." SGGS 184-9

Guru Gobind Singh Jee also wrote in Chaupa-ee Sahib Jee "hamree karo haath d-ay racchaa."

Do all true Sikhs feel that God has hands? Please express your views. I will be grateful.

Balbir Singh

[Amrikingh]

Vaheguru Ji is formless, but that doesn't mean that he can't make himself into forms, otherwise your putting limitations on what Vaheguru can and cannot do, he may not have any hands but then again he may have thousands of hands.

his plays are beyond anyone's understanding

[Kam1825]

In the transcendant form (Sargun) god has hands in the non transcendant (Nirgun) and divine word (Gurshabad) forms he has no hands

[Kharag Singh]

i think its all metaphorical, god is beyond our comprehension and since our Gurus understood god they had to in a sense "dumb" gods persona down for us to understand it, because god is too great.

Hands to a human are his greatest tools with them he creates, preserves and destroys, and hence are his power.

so when maharaj in Gurbani says hamri karo haath deh racha maharaj i feel is saying look after me oh lord with your power which created me, and will preserve me (protect) and will destroy my enemies and obsticals. Also maharaj could have used the term haath in a cultural prespective where they say eg ohde sir te hath rakh dita, ie he placed his hand over his head and took on his protection.

anyways these were my two cents

[shaheediyan]

As Kharag Singh Ji says, it's a metaphor, a figure of speech ... where the term hand of God is used to represent the divine grace and protection of Parm-Atma.

It's verbal poetry at it's finest.

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all!

Quote from Amrik$ingh Jee "he may not have any hands . . ."

I presume some have experienced God without hands.

Quote from Kam1825 Jee "In the transcendant form (Sargun) god has hands in the non transcendant (Nirgun) and divine word (Gurshabad) forms he has no hands"

One realizes first what. Is it hands of Sargun God or Nirgun God without hands?

This has made me curious. Sikhs are supposed to worship Nirgun God only. Nirgun God does not have hands. How does HE help a Jeev when needed?

Quote from Kharag Singh Jee "i think its all metaphorical,"

God is not metaphorical. God is Truth.

Quote "so when maharaj in Gurbani says hamri karo haath deh racha maharaj i feel is saying look after me oh lord with your power which created me, and will preserve me (protect) and will destroy my enemies and obsticals."

That is interesting. God, who created me, should please look after me, preserves me but destroy others. Strange, God hears everybody praying the same.

Quote from Shaheediyan Jee "it's a metaphor, a figure of speech ... where the term hand of God is used to represent the divine grace and protection of Parm-Atma."

What should one ask for when he needs help? These are God's Hands, Grace or both. Is it also something else?

Balbir Singh

[Mystical]

Balbir Singh, this is Guru Gobind Singh Jis bani.

[Kharag Singh]

balbir re-read my post and instead of cutting and pasting phrases out of my reply which are worthless as they are just phrases, and then tell me where i said god is metaphorical. Clevery kat dikhaal.

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all and Kharag Jee!

We are enjoying Satsang referring the Guru's Vaaks. God acts through the Gurus. The enlightened Gurus enjoy God's Will with full conscious mind.

You wrote "i think its all metaphorical,"

May I ask if it were not about God's speaking through the Gurus.

God's Truth through the Gurus is not metaphorical. This is a different thing that some do not understand it and call it metaphor.

Quote from RupZ Jee "Balbir Singh, this is Guru Gobind Singh Jis bani."

Thanks.

Balbir Singh

[shaheediyan]

"What should one ask for when he needs help? These are God's Hands, Grace or both. Is it also something else?"

What Vaheguru's hands represent is clearly shown in Dasam Pashahs Benti Chaupai, please read this bani and then let us have your understanding of Gods hands.

You do make one good point, do they represent something else, I would say yes they do, how can meagre minds like ours comprehend Vaheguru's hands, we can only comprehend them in the limited state of our understanding and needs - they can also be said to represent Vishnu, Brahma and Shiv Ji.

Please don't cut and paste sections of my response in reply, respectfully reply to my whole post in order.

[tSingh]

No, this isn't 'dumbing down' at all!

This is the epitome of the bhagat's sentiment...please protect me from the wandering mind. The hands are not complete metaphors since Parmatma IS the shelter that should be sought out...the one upon whom the bhagat dedicates everything, depends upon, is sustained by. How can they explain it any other way? Look at the terms Guru Maharaj has used in such bani 'narhari', 'narayan', etc etymologically such terms mean 'protector of man'.

[Kharag Singh]

@ brother Tsingh - can you honestly understand God and Gods full prowess? Even maharaj says he is a moorakh in the face of God. However this is because the Guru's were being modest. We have virtually no understanding of the Glory of God, and for us to gain a minute fraction of Akaals Mahima maharaj had to put it in words we would be able to understand, because we are stupid humans whos understanding is within the boundary of just questioning anything and everything that is beyond comprehension, rather than accepting eg presence of almighty God.

@ Balbir -listen the concept of God having hands is metaphorical not God itself. Before trying to be clever first try and understand the other persons perspective then quote what you perceive and then add what ever you wish to add to the argument may it be for or against it.

No one here denies that fact that the gurus were the window for divine light ie bani to come and shower upon us, yet when we start saying that god is up there sitting on fluffy clouds with a long white beard and giant hands, thats all a bit doolally! Saying that god literally has hands is absurd, because god is without form. These "hands" are a personification of Gods power, just like to us humans without our hands we cannot survive as they are our source of physical power, Gods "hands" are Gods power and it is that power that we are beseeching for protection. And here we can tie in my argument of dumbing down Gods persona (because it is so magnificent) to us humans our hands mean everything, because with it we eat, we do activities, its where our livelihood comes from. That emotion we have for the magnificence and significance of our hands in our lives can be projected upon God. The idea of God having hands is to teach us humans that "Look how powerful you are with your hands, imagine if God was to have hands how powerful would the almighty be, and think oh human God is more powerful than you can ever think without hands!"

[shaheediyan]

I agree with both Kharag Singh and T Singh, they may not agree, but I think they are singing off the same hymn sheet.

A metaphor is not completely disassociated from that which is represents, in this case metaphor (in a limited understanding) hand is the vehicle and protection/grace is the tenor (according to I A Richards theory).

Veer T Singh raises an excellent point i.e. "How can they explain it any other way?", and that is completely true, and does not negate the use of metaphor.

In my opinion, a hand could easily and quite correctly be seen as a metaphor or as fact, depending on ones level and angle of thinking.

A human day does not equate to a "God" day. The world could quite possibly have been been made in 7 days.

[Kharag Singh]

lol @ "singing off the same hymn sheet" but Shaheediyan your summary has dam!

[Mystical]

He's got the whole world, in his hands! He's got the whole world, in his hands!

Thought I'd add a little Christian hymn.

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all and Shaheediyan Jee!

Quote "What Vaheguru's hands represent is clearly shown in Dasam Pashahs Benti Chaupai, please read this bani and then let us have your understanding of Gods hands."

I just started reading it and was pondering the first Vaak "hamree karo haath d-ay racchaa." Surely, we may have Satsangs on the next Vaak soon.

Quote "You do make one good point, do they represent something else, I would say yes they do, how can meagre minds like ours comprehend Vaheguru's hands, we can only comprehend them in the limited state of our understanding and needs - they can also be said to represent Vishnu, Brahma and Shiv Ji."

In my view, Vishnu, Brahma and Shiv Jee are not hands of God.

God did not create first HIS three hands and then the rest of HIS creation.

**************

Dear TSingh Jee, We got birth long back. We do not know if God in form of Brahma gave us birth by using His hands or something else. Also, we do not know death right now as we feel that we are alive. So, knowing Siv may be a matter for the future.

God as protector known as Bikhan or Vishnu is the only God's Will helping us sustaining. I am using these Names because I found those in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

One needs to experience it if God is salving us with His Hands or any other limb more.

**************

Quote from Kharag Jee "Even maharaj says he is a moorakh in the face of God. However this is because the Guru's were being modest. We have virtually no understanding of the Glory of God, . . ."

There is a difference. Some are not able to accept that they are moorakh. Their ego hides behind the wall of 'we'.

Quote "@ Balbir -listen"

Please upload your voice.

Quote "No one here denies that fact that the gurus were the window for divine light ie bani to come and shower upon us,"

Please do not mind it. I feel the Gurus are divine light of God, not the windows.

Quote "Saying that god literally has hands is absurd, because god is without form."

Truth cannot be half true. One can realize formless God exclusively in a form, for example a human form. Perhaps some of us have heard why even Devas long for the human form.

Quote "These "hands" are a personification of Gods power, just like to us humans without our hands we cannot survive as they are our source of physical power, Gods "hands" are Gods power and it is that power that we are beseeching for protection. And here we can tie in my argument of dumbing down Gods persona (because it is so magnificent) to us humans our hands mean everything, because with it we eat, we do activities, its where our livelihood comes from. That emotion we have for the magnificence and significance of our hands in our lives can be projected upon God. The idea of God having hands is to teach us humans that "Look how powerful you are with your hands, imagine if God was to have hands how powerful would the almighty be, and think oh human God is more powerful than you can ever think without hands!"

The understanding or vocabulary of a worldly person may be limited.

The Gurus used the word 'Hands' because they wanted to say 'Hands'.

**************

Quote from Shaheediyan Jee "In my opinion, a hand could easily and quite correctly be seen as a metaphor or as fact, depending on ones level and angle of thinking."

I feel the same.

The Gurus meant 'Hands' when they sang about 'Hands'. Those Hands may not be visible to all.

Balbir Singh

[Kharag Singh]

balbir singh clevery ghat maar, because your arguments are be buniyaad

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all!

Quote from Kharag Jee "balbir singh clevery ghat maar, because your arguments are be buniyaad"

These words are crossbred and difficult to understand.

Please say something pleasant to all true Sikhs in a pure language.

Balbir Singh

[Kharag Singh]

oh please stop this ladida flowery shit, because quite frankly its just annoying. Stop being a goody two shoe

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all and Kharag Jee!

Please say something about God's Hands. I hope you have realized them too. Please name those from whom one receives help and protection otherwise.

Balbir Singh

[shaheediyan]

"Those Hands may not be visible to all."

What is your understanding of visible...

[tSingh]

My original point was missed, I should have put it better. This is not about Parmatma as such, the question is incorrect. The 'hands' are not a metaphor to describe Parmatma (kharag Singh Ji's reply), this is not qualifying the sarguna elements of parmatma. Its conveying the mindset of the bhagat. We must be clear that ultra austere Advaita this is not. A degree of bhakti is elemental to brahmgyan. At a point the self-willed nature has to be relinquished...and thats the reliance upon hukam part...the dedication of all actions to Parbraham. From this point onwards Parmatma is your only sustenance. The bhagat can only see Parmatma, hear Parmatma, the experience of brahmgyan cannot be experienced without Parmatma's grace (gurprsad). This is the 'acceptance'. The point is identification with Parmatma, and the end of identification with the ego. Whether you take this literally, or as a kind of metaphor for complete purification does not matter in the end. After turiya, the condition is of the brahmgyani and the experience is of spontaneous devotion until videhmukti.

[Kharag Singh]

you've gone off track from your own question

[tSingh]

I never asked a question!

[Kharag Singh]

sorry veer tsingh, i thought that reply was made by balbir singh, i must be going blind! LOL. No wonder i was thinking how cum balbir started so suddenly writing so articulately!