The British Government Helped 'free' The Harimandir In 1984?

[Ekomkar]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/13/sikh-inquiry-british-1984-amritsar-india-golden-temple

Sikhs demand inquiry into claims of British role in 1984 Amritsar attack

Documents appear to show SAS was involved in planning Indian military operation at Golden Temple in which hundreds died

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• Peter Walker
• theguardian.com, Monday 13 January 2014 18.58 GMT

Sikhs pray at the memorial at the Golden Temple in Amritsar for those killed there in 1984. Photograph: Demotix/Corbis

Sikh groups have called for a government inquiry into alleged British collusion in the bloody 1984 Indian military attack on the Golden Temple in Amritsar, the faith's holiest shrine, after newly released documents appeared to show the SAS was involved in planning the attack.

The head of the Sikh Council UK, Gurmel Singh said he was "shocked and disappointed" at the idea the government of Margaret Thatcher may have been involved. The Labour MP Tom Watson, whose West Bromwich constituency, contains many Sikhs, has demanded the Foreign Office release further papers about any British role.

Details come in two letters reportedly among a large cache of government documents released in the new year under the 30-year rule and published on the blog Stop Deportations.

One, dated 23 February 1984, is from Brian Fall, private secretary to the then-foreign secretary, Geoffrey Howe, to Hugh Taylor, his counterpart under the home secretary of the time, Leon Brittan. It warns about "the possibility of repercussions among the Sikh community in this country" over a possible military operation to remove from the Golden Temple Sikh militants, who had seized it several years earlier.

India had sought British advice over a plan to remove the militants from the temple complex, Fall writes, adding: "The foreign secretary decided to respond favourably to the Indian request and, with the prime minister's agreement, an SAD officer has visited India and drawn up a plan which has been approved by Mrs Gandhi. The foreign secretary believes that the Indian government may put the plan into operation shortly."

The reference to SAD is understood to be a typographical error for SAS. The elite unit is referred to later in the letter, where Fall writes that the military raid could increase tensions among Britain's Indian community, "particularly if the knowledge of the SAS involvement were to become public".

He adds: "We have impressed upon the Indians the need for security; and knowledge of the SAS officer's visit and of his plan has been tightly held both in India and in London. The foreign secretary would be grateful if the contents of this letter could be strictly limited to those who need to consider the possible domestic implications."

The issue is an explosive one for Sikhs worldwide. In June 1984, the military operation took place over six days, with India's government saying around 400 people had been killed. However, Sikh groups put the death toll in the thousands, including many Sikh pilgrims. In October that year, two Sikh bodyguards to Indira Gandhi, the Indian prime minister, assassinated her, sparking anti-Sikh riots that killed more than 3,000 people.

In a statement released by the Sikh Council UK, Singh said: "Thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed in the attack, which took place on one of the holiest days in the Sikh calendar. As well as loss of life, buildings and property was destroyed and the historical Sikh reference library was ransacked. This is and remains one of the darkest episodes in Sikh history.

"I am calling for an urgent inquiry into UK government involvement in the events of 1984 including a full disclosure of all documentation. The letters date from February 1984 yet the attack took place in June 1984 and then there was the subsequent genocide of Sikhs following Indira Gandhi['s] assassination in October 1984. I want to know, what else were the UK government saying and doing over all that time?"

The other letter released is from Robin Butler, Thatcher's private secretary. On 6 February 1984 he wrote to Fall saying Thatcher was "content" for Howe to allow India to receive help, and that Brittan expected to be warned if India looked likely to go ahead with a raid.

According to the Stop Deportations blog, three other letters in the sequence between Butler and Fall were not released; nor was any other file from after March that year.

Watson told the BBC Asian Network the letters raised "huge questions about the role of the British government at the time". He said: "On behalf of my constituents I was also deeply upset and offended that we were involved in what turned out to be a raid that caused huge loss of life and political tensions ever since."

He said the other letters should be released: "I think British Sikhs and all people concerned about human rights will want to know exactly the extent of Britain's collusion with this period and this episode, and will expect some answers from the foreign secretary."

A foreign office spokesman said: "These events led to a tragic loss of life and we understand the very legitimate concerns that these papers will raise. The prime minister has asked the cabinet secretary to look into this case urgently and establish the facts. The PM and the foreign secretary were unaware of these papers prior to publication. Any requests today for advice from foreign governments are always evaluated carefully with full ministerial oversight and appropriate legal advice."

Edited January 14, 2014 by Ekomkar

[PAL 07]

The fact is that the SAS are the best paramilitary in teh world, they sell there services irrespective of moral ethics.

The Indian Government have been proven to be speaking lies when they said that the attack was a last ditch effort to suppress the sikh movement

I beleive the brits have blood on their hands but karma means they will get their just deserts just as the Sikhs will

[dalsingh101]

It is important if only to get a few more naive, gullible Anglo-sycophant apnay's heads out their backsides visa vis the British establishment's real attitude towards Sikhs.

[dalsingh101]

Look at this cow piss worshiper; Hindoos can do no wrong in his eyes.

lol

[Guest]

I didnt get it, what was wrong in Brits helping India to flush out terrorists from Harmandir Sahib? Indira Gandhi should have arrested Bhindranwala much earlier or should not have released him at the intervention by Zail Singh and, most likely, Buta Singh. Heads in the butts indeed as Sikh refuse to admit the terrorism of their own, always blaming others for the 25 years or so of terrorism in punjab.

Let me get this straight, let the army go to your Jaganatth temple and destroy the temple, century old relics frescos, puratan design, idols, old manuscripts scriptures, kill thousands of innocent pilgrames all in the name of flushing some hindu terrorist deemed by gov't? Lets see your reaction?

You are one of worst kind of nazi scum i ever met in my life in cyber space. Are you even a fu cking human? or sub human nazi scum?

[chatanga1]

I didnt get it, what was wrong in Brits helping India to flush out terrorists from Harmandir Sahib? Indira Gandhi should have arrested Bhindranwala much earlier or should not have released him at the intervention by Zail Singh and, most likely, Buta Singh. Heads in the butts indeed as Sikh refuse to admit the terrorism of their own, always blaming others for the 25 years or so of terrorism in punjab.

remember your forefathers like nathu ram godse were also called terrorists.

[chatanga1]

Let me get this straight, let the army go to your Jaganatth temple and destroy the temple, century old relics frescos, puratan design, idols, old manuscripts scriptures, kill thousands of innocent pilgrames all in the name of flushing some hindu terrorist deemed by gov't? Lets see your reaction?

exactly, thats why he is a hypocrit.

what if mahmud ghaznvi claimed there were rebels or terrorists in Somnath temple, and they needed action taking against them.

and this guy sher, claims to be educated.

[das]

For both the parties: READ THE FOLLOWING and for your version of God's sake please stop posting hate (both parties)

"Priest from both Hinduism and Islam got together and began discussing religion. A great fantasy has been created and no one could understand its mystery. They asked Guru Nanak to open and search in his scripture whether Hindu is greater or the Muslim. Guru replied that without good deeds both will have to weep and wail. Only by being a Hindu or a Muslim one cannot get accepted in the kingdom of God. As the color of safflower is impermanent and is washed away in water, likewise the colors of religiosity are also temporary (The Vaars of Bhai Gurdas Ji, 1)"

“It is better to strive in one’s own dharma than to succeed in the dharma of another. Nothing is ever lost in following one’s own dharma. But competition in another’s dharma breeds fear and insecurity.” (Bhagavad Gita)

"One who eliminates mental wickedness from the mind, and casts out emotional attachment and egotistical pride. That one who comes to recognize the All-pervading Soul and is intuitively absorbed into the Naam (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 38)"

I do NOT understand why people (including me) from one group always tries to pin-point the problems in another group; even tough the one pointing fingers does not understand the core teachings of it's own group. Have you ever heard or seen TRUE sages quarelling over? It seems like it is only us (the educated but yet un-educated in spiritual region).

We may not be able to understand other person's view; because each has its own point of view.

e.g [ Let’s say there is a classic car in a parking lot. The car is badly damaged on one side, but looks like new on the other. Two people going through the parking lot, walk by the car, one on each side. One person’s point of view is from the bad side, one from the good. As they walk by, they each see the car, make a judgment, and form ‘clear’, solid beliefs about the condition of the car. Because of their limited viewpoints, they are each left with totally different beliefs about the car. And each person’s belief opposes and contradicts the others. They are both right, from their point of view. Yet if you could see the entire car from above from our point of view, they are both totally right and both totally wrong. The fact is that when you simultaneously grasp the two contradictory, yet true, beliefs, you actually have the greater truth about the car. Another good example is island: If we are on an island then we cannot see other world because we are totally cutoff and cannot see the other world.

For instance, just like the people viewing that car, the point of view of each individual reading the ancient texts, or any book, is going to be different, thus they will perceive it many different ways, thus it will be perceived differently than it really is, and differently than it was intended to be perceived. People will even go to war, because their personalized version of God is different than someone else’s, and of course, each side in the war always believes ‘God’ is on their side. ]

A person’s point of view is affected by both the state of their ‘consciousness’, and their beliefs and ‘programming’. Beliefs and programming are usually in sync with a person’s level of consciousness. However, consciousness is dominant, and if there is a shift to a higher or lower state, the new consciousness can alter and override a person’s beliefs and programming in order to match the new level of consciousness.

ALL PROBLEMS come from person's limited belief even though he/she thinks that he is broader. We do actions (karmas) as per our belief. The problems arise whenever we are out of sync with nature or universal consciousness. All nature works in harmony. But we are forgetting harmony. The world’s problems, our personal problems, and all the actions that create the problems, come from our delusion that we are separate from the One, and the selfishness that results from that delusion.

e.g [ Consider what would happen if just your arms and legs left the guidance, coordination and consciousness of the entirety of your body. Then they got their own identity, and developed selfish separate selves. You would have such things as one hand trying to put on a glove in a snowstorm, not caring what happened to the other hand. And the legs would be doing their own thing at the same time. And hand is thinking why should I give my hard work reward to stomach or to whole body? ]

Source of problem(s) is selfishness. At the root of selfishness is our illusion that we are not One with All things, All life, the entire Universe, and our subsequent belief that this illusion is real. The only way to change things and get back in harmony with the One, is to starve the selfish separate self of energy - of giving in to it, of thought “attention”, and simultaneously nurture the Inner Being, the Spirit within us.

Edited January 15, 2014 by das

[dalsingh101]

To Dal Singh, for the record the guru GRANTH sahib says to kill a cow or a Brahmin is a grave sin, and is against killing or eating cows, does that mean sikhs are cow piss worshippers too?

I have read ur other posts, you seriously letting urself down with stupid remarks like that, which turn Hindus who actually have sympathy for the sikh cause against you!

This second quote is a fair point. The first not so much.

[chatanga1]

Talk SOME sense Chatanga. Not once I have defended any "hindu" terrorist/mass killer.

yet you defend and support the ideology that encourages hindus to kill minorities in india.

To Dal Singh, for the record the guru GRANTH sahib says to kill a cow or a Brahmin is a grave sin, and is against killing or eating cows,

Guru Granth Sahib does not say that. This is all part of ekomakar's policy of confusion and deceit, the hindutva's taqqiya.

Guru Granth Sahib on page 1413 says something totally different.

[chatanga1]

Chatanga1,

It does INDEED say that, prove it wrong!

again another copy and paste of misunderstood or deliberately misinterpreted Gurbani.

[dalsingh101]

Tom Watson has today revealed more documents implicating the UK govt

What did he reveal?

[HSD1]

http://www.tom-watson.co.uk/

[Genie Singh]

According to her Machali from that quote isn't fish but the name of a drug

[Jonny101]

Ps chatanga1,

IT WAS NOT HINDUS attacking the Harimandir sahib it was an army full of Sikhs, hindus, Muslims, Christians, lead by a Jatt SIKH General Kuldeep SINGH Brar!

Hindus have been worshipping at Harimandir as long as sikhs!

Cherry picking history I see. Hindus are the one's responsible for attacking Harmandir Sahib. Indira Gandhi only attacked because all over North India, Hindus were demanding an attack. LK Advani very proudly writes in his autobiography that it was because of his(Hindutva) pressure that Indira Gandhi attacked Sri Darbar Sahib. After the attack, Hindus all over Punjab began to dance in joy and distribute sweets. This was like rubbing salt on the wound for the Sikhs. Due to operation bluestar, the next elections the congress party became so highly regarded amongst the Hindus that they won a land slide electoral victory.

The commandos that attacked were 98% Hindus. They had a so called Sikh figure head who lead the attack was intended to show the world and say "see even Sikhs are supporting this attack".

Hindus have so much love for Darbar Sahib, then why did the Hindus under the leadership of Lala Lajpat Rai and other Punjabi Hindu leaders create the Durgiana Mandir in competition to Harmandir Sahib?

Hindus love Harmandir Sahib so much that when Sikhs carried out a peaceful procession demanding Amritsar be declared a Holy City as Banaras is for Hindus, the Hindus of Amritsar carried out a counter protest at the instigation of Lala Jagat Narain demanding Amritsar not be given holy city status.

Hindus love Harmandir Sahib so much that in 1982 a large terrorist Hindu mob had gathered and attempted to attack Harmandir Sahib, they only dispersed when a few Sikhs who were present there clashed with them. But before they could retreat some surrounding property and vehicles were damaged.

Hindus Love Harmandir Sahib so much that they demanded the Indian government to attack Darbar Sahib which resulted in the slaughter of thousands of Sikhs.

Hindus love Harmandir Sahib so much that they began to dance with joy and distribute sweets all over Punjab after operation blue star was over.

Yeah such love makes my stomach turn

Edited January 18, 2014 by Jonny101

[Genie Singh]

Cherry picking history I see. Hindus are the one's responsible for attacking Harmandir Sahib. Indira Gandhi only attacked because all over North India, Hindus were demanding an attack. LK Advani very proudly writes in his autobiography that it was because of his(Hindutva) pressure that Indira Gandhi attacked Sri Darbar Sahib. After the attack, Hindus all over Punjab began to dance in joy and distribute sweets. This was like rubbing salt on the wound for the Sikhs. Due to operation bluestar, the next elections the congress party became so highly regarded amongst the Hindus that they won a land slide electoral victory.

The commandos that attacked were 98% Hindus. They had a so called Sikh figure head who lead the attack was intended to show the world and say "see even Sikhs are supporting this attack".

Hindus have so much love for Darbar Sahib, then why did the Hindus under the leadership of Lala Lajpat Rai and other Punjabi Hindu leaders create the Durgiana Mandir in competition to Harmandir Sahib? Such deceitful love is neither needed nor required.

What's the name of the book? Do you have a pdf of it?

[Jonny101]

What's the name of the book? Do you have a pdf of it?

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-11-16/india/30405184_1_siropa-avtar-singh-makkar-l-k-advani

[Jonny101]

I didnt get it, what was wrong in Brits helping India to flush out terrorists from Harmandir Sahib? Indira Gandhi should have arrested Bhindranwala much earlier or should not have released him at the intervention by Zail Singh and, most likely, Buta Singh. Heads in the butts indeed as Sikh refuse to admit the terrorism of their own, always blaming others for the 25 years or so of terrorism in punjab.

What is wrong is that the British government helped the terrorists(the Indian army) in attacking the Sikhs in Harmandir Sahib. And for what crime could Indira legally hold Sant Bhindranwale? just because he is a Sikh he should be arrested for no reason? Hindus refusing to admit the terrorist attack on the Sikhs in Harmandir Sahib is the most disgraceful thing the Hindus can do. Even Muslims are better in the sense that atleast most of them admit that Aruangzeb was wrong in persecuting the Sikhs. But Hindus are to this day proud of there terrorism against the Sikhs.

[Jonny101]

Let me get this straight, let the army go to your Jaganatth temple and destroy the temple, century old relics frescos, puratan design, idols, old manuscripts scriptures, kill thousands of innocent pilgrames all in the name of flushing some hindu terrorist deemed by gov't? Lets see your reaction?

You are one of worst kind of nazi scum i ever met in my life in cyber space. Are you even a fu cking human? or sub human nazi scum?

Actually N30 Singh Veerji, it's not his fault. Problem is, Hindus do not understand the real meaning of dying for one's Deen Dharm. Why do you think whenever Muslim invaders would conquer India, when they would come across a Mandir, they would find it totally abandoned. Not one Hindu would remain there to fight for the honour of his Bhagwan. The Muslims very often would desecrate the Mandir, destroy the moortees, very often making stone tiles out of the moorties which they would then install in their masjids so the Muslim would walk on them before praying to Allah. This is the kind of humiliation Hindus had faced at the hands of Muslims. On the other hand, 84 is just a chapter in the long glorious history of Sikh heroes fighting to the death for the honour of their Guru's house.

When Ahmad Shah Abdali went to Mathura he found all the most secred Mandirs relating to Sri Krishna abandoned. Not one hindu remained to defend the Mandirs. Compare this with when Ahmad Shah Abdali went to Darbar Sahib. 30 Singhs remained there under Baba Gurbaksh Singh Jee. The Singhs knew full well that they would become Shaheed but they chose to fight till death. So, no he will not understand even if you give him the examples of Somnath or Jaganath being attacked. It's a foreign concept to them.

The only time they know how to fight back is what they did in Babri Masjid. For hundreds of years, Hindus who dominated the whole of ayodhya and the surrounding areas never dared to touch Babri Masjid for fear of Muslims. But after it was abandoned and no longer being used by the Muslims, they formed a mob of thousands of Bhayas and attacked the Masjid. They call this "bravery".

[HSD1]

LK Advani said that because of the terrorist activities of bhindrawala and his men leading to unrest in Punjab caused him and many other political figures to put pressure on INDIRA Ghandhi to take firm action, to FLUSH THEM OUT.

Johnny if u hate Hindus that much I suggest you change the name if HARIMANDIR to Hari gurdwara or just gurdwara, you also might want to remove the writings of the 18 HINDU bhagats in the Granth sahib as well as the 15,028 REFERENCES TO RAM BRAHMA KRISHNA HARI OM SHIV LAXMAN HANUMAN LAXMI VISHNU IN THE GURU GRANTH SAHIB BUT I GUESS YOU WILL JUST BE LEFT WITH A BOOK COVER AND THE 5 or less references t Allah. Lolz

You may also want to cancel Lohri Rakhri Diwali too as they have nothing to do with sikhs like you!

Also Bhai gurdas hi described the 4 syllables of VAHEGURU as representing Vishnu shiva GOVIND ( krishna) and Ram so you might want to stop saying that word

If we did that would you leave us alone? i thought not.

As for Lahore, there were plenty of rich Sikhs there. Just because they didnt make a song and dance about their wealth (most of which wasnt due to the British - something the Hindus in Lahore couldnt say the same about) doesnt mean they werent there.

It is obvious that EkOmkar is trying to turn this into a Sikh -v- Hindu issue as he knows that he can then accuse Sikhs of sectarianism and bigotry. Typical obfuscation and twisting you'd expect from such people - the mods need to do something about it.

[HSD1]

After 1849 a lot of Sikhs left Lahore as it wasnt safe. They went to places which would have been a lot easier to protect themselves, their families and their wealth. When they returned over the next century they never made a big song and dance about it. It is obvious why when you consider why they left and who was still in charge. Just because they were referred to as Hindus by the administration at the time doesnt matter much as it didnt make sense to challenge it. Plenty of the well off Hindus in Lahore were involved in the administration and support of the British occupation. You cant deny that.

It's also well know that most of the land and businesses/factories in West Punjab were owned by Sikhs. It was why Churchill wanted a Sikh state and why Sikhs were so apathetic about Congress/Muslim League - we thought we were untouchable. A mistake that cost all Punjabis, not just Sikhs, a lot.

[HSD1]

The documentary also accused Sikhs of preparing for violence for no reason when in fact the British establishment and the Muslim leaders were preparing for bloodshed. If you're doing that typically Indian thing of taking one bit of evidence and extrapolating all sorts of theories and beliefs out of it then it's up to you how you want to make things up. Hindus never owned large businesses and factories in WP, they were better at making money off British rule. I dont know why you keep saying otherwise, it's almost as if you're ashamed of it. It was the Sikhs who were forced to farm, fight or find opportunities in the private sector that hadnt been ruined by British rule.

Sikhs are the highest contributors to the treasury per capita according to racial lines in the UK. It's probably why so many non-Sikhs are trying to hook up with Sikhs for long term relationships. HIndus are no different here. One minute whining about issues like grooming and racism, demanding Sikhs do something about it. Then crying about the Kirpan and stabbiing us in the back or grassing up young sikhs to the police who've had trouble with muslim/racist gangs. With friends like these........... We're also on top because the Jews are legging it to greener pastures. Anyway, I doubt some directory on NRIs is a comprehensive list of all those of Punjabi descent outside of India. Especially as it seems to be more of an advert of contacts for those back home who dont know anyone abroad. Though no doubt you will not see it that way and make all kinds of assumptions based on incomprehension of facts and books to suit your own opinion. Typical.

[HSD1]

I am doing the typical HINDU punjabi thing if telling the truth whilst u r doing the typical sikh thing of DENY LIE AND IGNORE FACTS!

Ah ha! The typical racism and hatred shines through eventually. You only claim brotherhood to keep us close and smother us - it makes you feel good about yourself to make SIkhs suffer. Same old story through the ages.

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2013/03/14/comment-british-sikhs-are-the-best-example-of-cultural-integ

http://yespunjab.com/trade-and-industries/item/99-analjit-singh-the-highest-tax-payer-in-india

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-praises-immense-contribution-of-british-sikhs-at-vaisakhi-reception

All that is from a 10 second search on Google. I didnt need to bring up propaganda documentaries from years ago or other egosyntonic garbage.

Hindu women get groomed as bad as anyone else. Worse in some cases. Their families come crying to Gurdwaras and young sikh groups, thinking we'll get all emotional and charge around like we used to. Unfortunately our tears ducts are dry as we know what you are really like. Dozens of Sikhs boys are in jail for being in gangs that were egged on by British Hindus to fight muslims and whites. Yet those Hindus never went to jail. Says it all really.

As for DJs/Sonia Deol, we all know that these people are of a certain persuasion. As the recent revelations of 1984 show, some people are waiting to come and confuse the issue. Mark Tully, a British propagandist was quick to offer a halfarsed explanation. DJ Nihal said the documnets were fake. How would he know? Considering his wholehearted anti-Sikh agenda it's no surprise he comes out with this garbage.

Shergill can write what he wants and idiots can buy it too. Just because he is SIkh doesnt mean a thing. Badal is a Sikh. Schindler was a Nazi. Obama is black. See what I mean?

Edited January 18, 2014 by HSD1

[Jonny101]

Johnny you write so much fiction it's hilarious, the Hindus of Punjab always visited HARIMANDIR and to this day do!

The Durgiana mandir was not built is competition to Hari mandir , but for Hindus as Hari had a mandir , a Devi mandir nearby made sense, it's not uncommon for HINDUS to HAVE MANDIRS NEAR EACHOTHER!

Showme proof that Hindus were demanding an attack on HARIMANDIR sahib? By all accounts and the recent letters to come out , it was Badal, Longowal, SGPC, Akalis BEGGING INDIRA GHANDHI to flush out terrorists from the HARIMANDIR! You don't need me to tell you they were and are SIKHS!

Please no BSing. Even a blind person can see Durgiana Mandir was was built in competition to Darbar Sahib. Durgiana mandir doesn't even have any historical significance to the Hindu religion, yet Hindus have copied it's look and demand that it be given the same status as Darbar Sahib on national and international level.

The Hindus of Punjab were fully demanding the attack on the Darbar Sahib. After the attack by the terrorist Hindu army, their was joy in all Hindu homes, Hindus were even seen distributing sweets in support of this Hindu terrorist act. It was common to see Hindus hanging pictures of Indira Gandhi fashioned like Durga Mata in their homes.

There were even many cases of Hindus being caught pre 1984 throwing cigarettes and Bidis into the Sarovar of Darbar Sahib. But each time Sikhs never hurt them for this insulting act and just handed them over to the police. Yet police never once charged them because they were Hindus.

[HSD1]

I said Indian. But it seems you feel there is no difference. So Hindus are responsible for these atrocities then is what you're saying?

It is good that you admit it.