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Pronounce the Sihari at the End of the Word - How to Read Guru Granth Sahib (Part 1)

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19 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Bhagat Jaswant Singh jee emphasizes on the subtle pronunciations. I don't think other Taksali ustaads are against his way, but it is not possible to complete an Akhand Paath in 48 hrs or complete your nitnem in 1 hr using his method. Other Taksali ustads probably pronounce siharis and aukars in a very subtle and quick way.

IMHO, this cannot be considered as a major difference within Taksal.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Yes, they pronounce the akhars very clearly not in a subtle manner like many of the other ustaads.  Its not a major difference however i was just pointing out there differences between various ustaads and pronunciations. There are some differences of bhindhis and vishraams as well. Doesnt make one right and the others wrong.  Thats all i wanted to add to the topic.  

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44 minutes ago, CuriousSeeker said:

As for sihari i personally  pronounce it subtle eh, but  if you listen to Bhagat Jaswant Singh jis, its not a subtle eh at all.  And thats okay too.   

ok..we are getting somewhere..

for sihari it is a subtle eh.. ie.. hahe sihari.h-e....As per.jaswant singh ji..sase sihari ..  s-e...

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12 hours ago, samurai2 said:

@Lucky

Spell in english letters how you would pronounce Hari??

as I stated previously;  Here is what I considered an appropriate explanation, since there's no correct way to write how it's pronounced in English.  If anything , it will come across as 'Har'

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 12:05 AM, Lucky said:

What I wrote in my post is referring to HARi. When someone hears this, or lets say the sound coming out of my vocal chords, then it will be heard as HAR.  On a simple mono phone line, you would perceive it as HAR, since you can't hear the vibrating "ee" effect.  You wont hear me saying Haree as in a haree Krishna type chant.    Sound is a HAR and ending in a very subtle "ee" vibration, but to average joe, it still sounds like a straight HAR.

 

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Just as pronouncing gurbani we also need to be careful how we spell a gurmukhi word in English. This is a big issue, mainly coming from us/canada. I think you lot love sikhi but need approval from the white man in justifying your practice/way of living.

Hari implies a sound of Haree, that's just the english language. Har,Har/e is a word referred to nirankaar. -god if you like. 

@CuriousSeeker

It also depends if one is teaching and another practising. 

Jaswant Singh pronounces moharni in his recitation. because ultimately when you keep reciting the moharni it becomes fluent and less noticeable  from an outside listener. 

Hence why Jarnail singh (damdami) sounds different to Jaswant for eg.

If you really want to pronounce gurbani correctly then read each word with moharni.

Eg.. Mool Manter

Ekoankarr sat-e namo karta purk-o nirbhaou

nirvair-o akaal moorat-e ajoonee saibhang

gurprasaad-e

aad-e sach-o

jugad-e sach-o

hai bhee sach-o

nanak hos-ee bhee sah-o

Me personally i am against the english translation of gurmukhi word. I feel if you want to recite gurbani then learn the gur boli. But for the sake of this topic i have used such methods. 

Its also like how many people write and say waheguru, but its actually with a vava.. vaheguru/Va-he-gu-ru

 

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On 6/16/2018 at 6:46 AM, samurai2 said:

If you really want to pronounce gurbani correctly then read each word with moharni.

Eg.. Mool Manter

Ekoankarr sat-e namo karta purk-o nirbhaou

nirvair-o akaal moorat-e ajoonee saibhang

gurprasaad-e

aad-e sach-o

jugad-e sach-o

hai bhee sach-o

nanak hos-ee bhee sah-o


ਨਾਮੁ  ਪੁਰਖੁ  ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ  ਸਚੁ

The Aunkar on these words is only there to indicate a Singular, Masculine Noun, so it should not be pronounced.

 

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On 6/15/2018 at 7:58 PM, Lucky said:

as I stated previously;  Here is what I considered an appropriate explanation, since there's no correct way to write how it's pronounced in English.  If anything , it will come across as 'Har'

It would be pronounced like Hurry, where the y is a sihari,and u is no matra (so no puckered lips).

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On 6/18/2018 at 8:37 PM, BhagatSingh said:

The Aunkar on these words is only there to indicate a Singular, Masculine Noun, so it should not be pronounced.

You are wrong.  According to moharni the aunkar as well as sihari etc should be pronounced. To say it should not be pronounced is indicating that 'whoever' wrote the shabad is incorrect.

Why would such beings put aunkar (for eg) if it was not to be pronounced? 

 

On 6/18/2018 at 8:43 PM, BhagatSingh said:

It would be pronounced like Hurry, where the y is a sihari,and u is no matra (so no puckered lips).

Yes so hurry, if you like, is indicating a bihari not sihari..

 

 

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18 hours ago, samurai2 said:

You are wrong.  According to moharni the aunkar as well as sihari etc should be pronounced. To say it should not be pronounced is indicating that 'whoever' wrote the shabad is incorrect.

Why would such beings put aunkar (for eg) if it was not to be pronounced?  

On some words pronouncing the Aunkar changes the meaning of the word to something else.

E.g. if you pronounce the Aunkar on ਜੋਰੁ it changes the meaning of the word. Instead of being Jor "power", it becomes Joru "wife".

The aunkar in ਜੋਰੁ is only there to indicate a singular, masculine word, so a singular power source.

ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਭਾਰੁ ਤਲੈ ਕਵਣੁ ਜੋਰੁ ॥
What Power holds and supports the weight of this world?

ਜੋਰੁ here is singular masculine word - Power - and the aunkar indicates that.

Same with ਭਾਰੁ and ਕਵਣੁ.

Bhar means "weight". Bharu means "one who applies weight". So here it should be pronounced as Bhar, not Bharu.

 

And pronouncing it on other words, makes the word lose its meaning.

E.g. ਗਿਆਨੁ

Gyan means "knowledge". Gyani and Gyanee mean "of knowledge" often "person of knowledge".

Gyanu and Gyanoo have no meaning.

 

So that's why I think the Aunkars are only there to indicate words that are both Singular and Masculine.

Most mainstream Gurbani Grammar scholars agree with that.

 

Where we disagree is that they think Aunkar should never be pronounced, whereas I think in some words it should be.

Some of these words I talked about in my Aunkar thread.

 

18 hours ago, samurai2 said:

Yes so hurry, if you like, is indicating a bihari not sihari.. 

Depends on how you pronounce it.

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9 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

E.g. if you pronounce the Aunkar on ਜੋਰੁ it changes the meaning of the word. Instead of being Jor "power", it becomes Joru "wife".

If we pronounce it your way, then we will change the arth of the word.

By the way, the word used in Gurbani for wife is ਜੋਰੂ (Joroo not Joru). Even, in Hindi it is जोरू, not जोरु.

Did you get a chance to have a conversation with Gyani Surjit Singh jee?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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14 hours ago, paapiman said:

If we pronounce it your way, then we will change the arth of the word.

By the way, the word used in Gurbani for wife is ਜੋਰੂ (Joroo not Joru). Even, in Hindi it is जोरू, not जोरु.

Joroo Joru same thing

In Hindi it is spelled and pronounced both ways. जोरू/जोरु

In Indian languages, pronunciation and spelling of similar vowels can be (and are often) interchanged.

For example - ਉਤਮ ਊਤਮ

This is because Long U vs Short U sounds are not that different. There is a difference but it is small.

So if you pronounce the Aunkar on ਜੋਰੁ Jor it changes the meaning of the word to Joru/Joroo.

 

Unique Purpose of Aunkar

Now suppose that's not the case.

Suppose we live in another world where these related similar-sounding vowels are never interchanged.

We know the Aunkar in Gurbani has a purpose completely unrelated to being a vowel -

It indicates a noun that is both singular and masculine.

This a rule that we do not see in normal Punjabi.

So normal rules of Punjabi pronunciation may not apply to this type of usage of the Aunkar symbol.

In some places it maybe a vowel in other places it is a unique matra for indicating nouns that are both masculine and singular.

This usage is not seen in any other vowel symbol.

So the Aunkar is likely to have its own rules for pronunciation.

 

Difference between Aunkar-Dulankar Pair and Sihari-Bihari Pair

The reality is that the related vowel sounds are interchangeable.

For example - ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦੀ, ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਪ੍ਰਭੂ, ਉਤਮ ਊਤਮ etc

And so another line of evidence we have is that we know that the meaning of words that end in Sihari is the same if that Sihari is turned into a Bihari.

ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦ has one meaning - grace.

Add a sihari at the end of that and you get ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ, which has a different meaning "through grace" or "of grace" or "person who gives grace".

Change that sihari to a bihari ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦੀ and the meaning is the same ("through grace" or "of grace" or "person who gives grace").

The pronunciations are not that different ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦੀ.  But very different from ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦ.

 

But unlike Sihari-Bihari, Aunkar-Dulankar function very differently in Gurmukhi.

Certainly Aunkar-Dulankar are interchangeable in words like ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  and ਪ੍ਰਭੂ (and so I say you should pronounce the Aunkar in Prabhu).

But there are some words that end in Aunkar  ਜੋਰੁ do not have the same meaning as the ones that end in Dulankar ਜੋਰੂ.

ਜੋਰੁ is singular and masculine - power

ਜੋਰੂ is feminine - wife

So here pronouncing the Aunkar causes confusion with the Dulankar version. 

Pronouncing the Aunkar in ਜੋਰੁ , easily confuses the word with ਜੋਰੂ.

Remember Gurmukhi is an oral language first and foremost, so the emphasis is on pronunciation rather than spelling.

 

Since ਜੋਰੁ and ਜੋਰੂ sound pretty similar, but very different from ਜੋਰ, I would say the Aunkar should not be pronounced in order to avoid confusion.

This issue does not arise with ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦੀ so the sihari should be pronounced.

 

 

 

 

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On 8/5/2018 at 4:01 PM, BhagatSingh said:

In Hindi it is spelled and pronounced both ways. जोरू/जोरु

What is your source? I only see जोरू in the Hindi dictionary.

 

On 8/5/2018 at 4:01 PM, BhagatSingh said:

So if you pronounce the Aunkar on ਜੋਰੁ Jor it changes the meaning of the word to Joru/Joroo.

As mentioned earlier, if we pronounce it your way (which is definitely wrong in this case), then the meaning will change. 

ਜੋਰੁ is pronounced as Jor-oh (slight sound of oh). The Aunkar can be kept silent too.

 

On 8/5/2018 at 4:01 PM, BhagatSingh said:

For example - ਉਤਮ ਊਤਮ

This is because Long U vs Short U sounds are not that different. There is a difference but it is small.

For you it is a small difference, IMHO, it is a big difference. The sound itself is so different and possibly different facial muscles will be used to pronounce the words.  

Do an experiment. Stand in front of the mirror and pronounce both the words. Pay close attention to your nose, lips, mustache area, etc. You will notice how different muscles engage when you pronounce them.

 

Bhul chuk maaf.

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9 hours ago, paapiman said:

What is your source? I only see जोरू in the Hindi dictionary.

True. That's the "official spelling".
 

Quote

As mentioned earlier, if we pronounce it your way (which is definitely wrong in this case), then the meaning will change. 

ਜੋਰੁ is pronounced as Jor-oh (slight sound of oh). The Aunkar can be kept silent too.

Partially true.

It's the e, eh thing again.

Like Siharis are pronounced as - short e and short eh - Aunkars are pronounced both ways as well - short u and short o.

Some people say bull (lips), some people say boll.

Some people say sikh (student), some people say sekh.

 

Either way you pronounce it, Joru/Joro/Joroo, it changes the meaning of the word to something else.

Pronouncing ਜੋਰੁ as Joru makes it sound like Joroo (wife).

Pronouncing ਜੋਰੁ as Jor-oh makes it sound like Joro (to connect, fix)

So ਜੋਰ, a singular and masculine word meaning power, should be pronounced as Jor (power).

 

9 hours ago, paapiman said:

For you it is a small difference, IMHO, it is a big difference.

You are right. It is significantly different to a keen observer.

(You don't even have to be that keen to see the difference.)

 

But

It is similar enough in common spoken language to be interchanged.

And that's my point -

It is interchangeable in spoken language due to the immense similarity, even though there is a difference.

 

This is why in Gurbani you will notice these matras being interchanged.

u (aunkar) and oo (dulankar) are interchanged - e.g - ਪ੍ਰਭੁ - ਪ੍ਰਭੂ and ਉਤਮ - ਊਤਮ

u (aunkar) and o (hora) are interchanged - e.g  - ਭਜੁ - ਭਜੋ

e (sihari) and ee (bihari) are interchanged - e.g. - ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ - ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦੀ and ਘਰਿ - ਘਰੀ

e (sihari) and eh (lavan) are interchanged - e.g. - ਘਰਿ - ਘਰੇ

They are similar sounds that's why.

 

(Interesting to note - Here you have the same word with the same meaning written and pronounced in three different ways - ਘਰਿ - ਘਰੀ - ਘਰੇ)

(also note that the Aunkars in above mentioned examples, ਪ੍ਰਭੁ , ਭਜੁ , ਉਤਮ should be pronounced)

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On 8/9/2018 at 3:34 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Some people say bull (lips), some people say boll.

Some people say sikh (student), some people say sekh.

Good examples. Thanks for sharing.

 

On 8/9/2018 at 3:34 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Pronouncing ਜੋਰੁ as Jor-oh makes it sound like Joro (to connect, fix)

The word for "to connect" is ਜੋੜ.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 8/4/2018 at 8:57 PM, BhagatSingh said:

On some words pronouncing the Aunkar changes the meaning of the word to something else.

E.g. if you pronounce the Aunkar on ਜੋਰੁ it changes the meaning of the word. Instead of being Jor "power", it becomes Joru "wife".

The aunkar in ਜੋਰੁ is only there to indicate a singular, masculine word, so a singular power source.

ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਭਾਰੁ ਤਲੈ ਕਵਣੁ ਜੋਰੁ ॥
What Power holds and supports the weight of this world?

ਜੋਰੁ here is singular masculine word - Power - and the aunkar indicates that.

Same with ਭਾਰੁ and ਕਵਣੁ.

Bhar means "weight". Bharu means "one who applies weight". So here it should be pronounced as Bhar, not Bharu.

 

And pronouncing it on other words, makes the word lose its meaning.

E.g. ਗਿਆਨੁ

Gyan means "knowledge". Gyani and Gyanee mean "of knowledge" often "person of knowledge".

Gyanu and Gyanoo have no meaning.

 

So that's why I think the Aunkars are only there to indicate words that are both Singular and Masculine.

Most mainstream Gurbani Grammar scholars agree with that.

 

Where we disagree is that they think Aunkar should never be pronounced, whereas I think in some words it should be.

Some of these words I talked about in my Aunkar thread.

 

Depends on how you pronounce it.

good luck mate

Spoilt little children need a bit of luck

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On 8/15/2018 at 3:45 PM, paapiman said:

Good examples. Thanks for sharing.

The word for "to connect" is ਜੋੜ.

In Gurbani ਜੋਰ is used also.

On 9/13/2018 at 5:02 PM, MrDoaba said:

Listen to this recording, it is pretty shudh IMO. You will get a better idea of siharis, aunkars etc

I don't agree. He isn't pronouncing the siharis.

On 9/14/2018 at 1:38 PM, chatanga1 said:

I listen to Giani Ran Singh regularly but above video is also excellent.

I thought you and @paapiman agreed with me that Siharis should be pronounced?

 

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27 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

I don't agree. He isn't pronouncing the siharis.

Please point out some examples of where he isn't pronouncing the Siharis. In fact most would say he is pronouncing them very clearly. Do you even know what sound a Sihari makes?

You need to do your Muhaarni bro, pher tenu patta lagu. Actually, have you/do you ever practice your Muhaarni?

 

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3 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

Please point out some examples of where he isn't pronouncing the Siharis. In fact most would say he is pronouncing them very clearly. Do you even know what sound a Sihari makes?

You need to do your Muhaarni bro, pher tenu patta lagu. Actually, have you/do you ever practice your Muhaarni?

Bhaji I know muharni lol. Punjabi is my first language.

Here I am talking about those siharis that are on the last letter of the word.

For example - ਆਦਿ

My point is that this is not pronounced as Aad, as we would normally say it, rather it is pronounced as Aadi.

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On 5/27/2018 at 1:17 AM, BhagatSingh said:

So if you want to pronounce Siharis as short -eh, then go ahead.

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't taksalis pronounce siharis like this?

See this video:

In his pronounciation bhai saab pronouces the sihari with a -eh sound. 

I think Bhagat Veerji is right in saying one must pronounce the siharis. 

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2 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

My point is that this is not pronounced as Aad, as we would normally say it, rather it is pronounced as Aadi.

Yes, I thnk you are right. Taksal is known for its pronounciation of gurbani and they generally say aad(eh), they pronounce the sihari. 

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10 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Bhaji I know muharni lol. Punjabi is my first language.

Here I am talking about those siharis that are on the last letter of the word.

For example - ਆਦਿ

My point is that this is not pronounced as Aad, as we would normally say it, rather it is pronounced as Aadi.

Have you done muharni from a proper ustaad? Or just by yourself? 

 

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17 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Bhaji I know muharni lol. Punjabi is my first language.

Here I am talking about those siharis that are on the last letter of the word.

For example - ਆਦਿ

My point is that this is not pronounced as Aad, as we would normally say it, rather it is pronounced as Aadi.

Okay that's good, keep practicing it until you get it right. Your Ustaad, when you get a proper one, will stop you many times.

I know which Siharis you are talking about, but thanks for the clarification. Your ears are untrained to hear the Paathi's pronunciation because you are making up rules out of thin air. He is pronouncing all the Matre as they should be...you just don't know what sound they make.

All your comments about personal preference and dialect don't mean jack. Colloquial Punjabi and Gurbani Uchaaran are two different things.

If you spoke to ten different Ustaads they would all give you the same answer with small variations, nothing as wild as you are suggesting.

When you write Aadi, the transliteration would be read and pronounced as Aadee - ਆਦੀ...like how we read Swami. This is incorrect. It's Aad-e(h) or Aad-ay. And don't bother explaining what you think Bihari and Sihari sound like because everything you have said so far, is incorrect according to the standards of Gurmukhi rules.

You also seem to be mistaking the grammar rules of Gurmukhi with those for Devanagari. In Devanagari the Sihari and Bihari (or whatever they are called) are used interchangeably at times. Other vowels also sound different. The rules for Gurbani pronunciation are distinct.

For example: In Devanagari  मंगल मूरति  would be written and pronounced  ਮੰਗਲ ਮੂਰਤੀ  in Gurmukhi, not  ਮੰਗਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ. This does not mean that ਮੂਰਤਿ is pronounced like ਮੂਰਤੀ or vice versa. They are distinct sounds...Gurbani has distinct sounds and pronunciation

Another example: In Devanagari सति is pronounced ਸਤੀ in Gurmukhi, however, it can also be written  सती  in Devanagari but still have the same meaning. If I wrote  ਸਤਿ, not only would it sound different to सति/सती, it also has a different meaning.

Either way, the sounds/rules of Gurmukhi and Devanagari are different even if they behave somewhat similarly...they are different Lippi's after all. One can write out a line of Gurbani but cannot expect to write it out with the exact corresponding characters as Devanagari. One would have to make changes to replicate the sounds.

I mean tbh, no one has agreed with anything that you've said...you are literally making up your own rules, and still going against the accepted rules when you have been corrected continuously. Forgive me for saying but if you were ever to spend time with proper Gyaani Dhyaani Gursikhs, the lessons in Nimrata you learn would hit you like a ton of bricks, and your hankaar would break as if an earthquake has taken place.

Maharaaj tenu buddhi bakshan.

 

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@MrDoaba

Just wait for the response, which will be in a few days. This gives the perception he has pondered over your comments and gave a thoughtful response.

I bet it will be twice as long as your reply..lol

i said it to @Reader and i'll say it to you too,  you will be going round in circles with bhagat. 

Because his fan boys admire his art, they automatically  take his words for gospel.(they being people on this site)

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1 hour ago, samurai2 said:

Because his fan boys admire his art, they automatically  take his words for gospel.(they being people on this site)

Tbh, bhagat singhs art is pretty crap. I like harjinder singh sunner soo much better

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