Charitro Pakhyan - Sri Dasam Granth Sahib

[SAadmin]

This thread is dedicated for debate and discussion with the group who does not believe that Charitopakhyan is part of Sri Dasam Granth. I just wanted to remind the rules- one liner bold statements are not allowed especially against sri dasam granth. One must back up the claims with one puratan source or at least logical reasoning for debate to continue.

[Guru da Sikh]

Can somebody post a LIST OF TEACHINGS that we get from Cahritro Pakhyan's 404 chritars?

[Guest]

That's a good way to start the debate, i will soon write it up.

[Xylitol]

Maskin ji did katha on this bani, will post it when I see it uploaded.

[valli singh]

.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

to warn the Khalsa of the worldly moral pitfalls to be wary of, their subtleties and how to avoid them

thus they are essentially cautionary, character-building and didactic--they are not LITERAL or MIMETIC

which you people don't seem to understand so what's wrong with that,

even Shakespeare has done this in his plays by creating lewd characters such as the Gravediggers

for comedic and didactic purposes, same as the great Italian Opera Pagliacci

(not to mention 10 Charitars on the avoidence of intoxicants and alcohol)

PROVE TO ME THAT THEY ARE FUNDAMENTALLY LUST-INDUCING AND NOT DIDACTIC

you people have no understanding of poetic conventions and World Literature,

do you find the Purgatorio Cantos of Dante's Divine Comedy where the incestuous,

adulterous sins of damned souls are related and their punishments offensive?

CHARITRO PAKIYA IS THE SAME THING

Go read about the literary concept of the Carnivalesque

that is what Charitro Pakia is all about.

Which chariters says to avoid alcohol? What does Gurmat Maartund (Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha) say about charitropakhyan and Mahakaal? Are writings such as Carnivaleque, Purgatorio Cantos, Shakespeare, etc. work of 10th Paatshah also? Are we waiting to write them in Gurmukhi script to write Mukhvaak Paatshahi 10 on the heading? Please provide insight here. Thank you very much in advance for answering these questions. If you want to say naastic or whatever, thank you in advance for that too.

[valli singh]

.

[shaheediyan]

Lol, shankavaadis are shankavaadis for a reason!

[Matheen]

lol!

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Are you really that dense or

Do you know what an analogy is?

I was being allusive and putting Charitro Pakiyan in the context of

comparative World Literature.

That is a literary field where scholars compare themes and cautionary frameworks etc

across cultures.

you are quite a base and one dimensional thinker if you cannot note those similarities,

who on earth said to put them into Gurmukhi or add any signature to them?

Either you didn't understand the question or the examples given therein or

you seem to be reveling in ignorance because you don't have an answer

thus you are making baseless and nonsensical statements

IS CHARITRO-PAKIAN CAUTIONARY IN NATURE

IF NOT WHY DOES IT WARN US ABOUT THE WILES OF WOMEN?

saying that Guru Gobind Singh did not write Dante's Inferno (which is obvious unless your an imbecile) is not an answer and is plainly self-evident.

you're very welcome.

This is what you need to get through to your brain. If someone can take writings of Poet Shyam, Raam and Kaal and put Paatshahi 10 on them and you get fooled by them, then how is it certain that you won't be fooled if someone wrote Paatshahi 10 on writings of these western writers after translating their literature into Gurmukhi? It shouldn't be hard to tell who is imbecile. Someone who says Poets Shyam, Raam and Kaal are Guru Gobind Singh Ji or someone who says Poets Shyam, Raam and Kaal are who they are whcih is poets. Also, keep your anger in check, it won't get you anywhere. If you can't keep anger in control after reading my post, how do you control your unit after reading charitropakhyan? Weird isn't it? Someone who can't tell the difference between Poet Shyam, Poet Raam, Poet Kaal and Guru Gobind Singh Ji is talking about literary field. Gurbani quotes below fit very well:

ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੀਤ ॥ ਭੁਖੇ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਘਰੇ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥ ਮਖਟੂ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਕੰਨ ਪੜਾਏ ॥ ਫਕਰੁ ਕਰੇ ਹੋਰੁ ਜਾਤਿ ਗਵਾਏ ॥

ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਜਉ ਸਿਖਾ ਮਹਿ ਚੂਕ ॥ ਅੰਧੇ ਏਕ ਨ ਲਾਗਈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਂਸੁ ਬਜਾਈਐ ਫੂਕ ॥ ੧੫੮॥

ਫੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧੇ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੂਝੈ ॥

[Guest]

The Khalsa Fauji,

Most of us here know that treh charitar is from panch tantar written by rishi munis, so save you energy to convince us its not written by sri guru gobind singh ji. We already know that because it belongs to Sutantar Anubhadith Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth sahib ji.

I put this question fwd to your freind - Guru Da Sikh, i m posing same question to you, its very important without proper discussion on this point we cannot go fwd in details:

Lets discuss the possibility of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj translating/interpreting or including previous compositions/rachna by previous gurmukhs/rishi/manuis and included them in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib addressing the socio-economic/panj vikars issues that human faces by giving examples, why can't this be possibility? We already have proper chronology and puratan birs of sri dasam granth sahib to prove that. Historically speaking this possibility clearly proven to us by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji including writing of Bhagats (previous compositions) in to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji addressing that importance of spirituality- naam simran/seva.

Also to question, why not include everything in sri guru granth sahib maharaj? its bit silly.

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different cateogory/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

Please refute above possibility cannot be possible.

[Kam1825]

"Someone who can't tell the difference between Poet Shyam, Poet Raam, Poet Kaal and Guru Gobind Singh Ji is talking about literary field."

Khalsa Fauj a quick question you like Prof Sahib Singh Ji's teeka for this reason i put this question to you

In Bhatt Sawais Prof Sahib Singh states that there isn't 17 bhatts but 11. Bhatts like Jalap writes under the name of Jal and Tal as well, and so on with the other bhatts as well. If the Bhatts can do this in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then whey cant Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were the master of poets, the Jot of Guru Nanak Dev Ji write under different names as well as he allowed his bhatts to do so whilst in the fifth manifestation, Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji.

[Mithar]

Why dont you guys (Guru Da Sikh and The Khalsa Fauj) first list why you think Charitro Pakhyan is not bani. The burdan of proof is on you. We already beleive it is bani. It is up to you to prove to us that it is not the krit of Guru Gobind Singh jee based on what you have learnt from Kala Afghana Sahib.

[shaheediyan]

Even if we hypothetically accept your theory that the poetry is of Kaal, Raam and Shyaam - they were all part of the Pvanja Kavi - who were a highly respected part of Guru Gobind Singh Maharajs entourage. Their thoughts and writing would have been in complete harmony with that of supreme Master, under whose divine gaze, this beautiful poetry would have been completed?

Looking at it this way, do you still have no regard for these works?

[valli singh]

.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Khalsa fauji

ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲ ॥:

Jah daekhaa tah ravi rahae siva sakatee kaa mael:

ang 21

Shiv shaktee there means this jagat which is maaya. Read the next line.

ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਬੰਧੀ ਦੇਹੁਰੀ ਜੋ ਆਇਆ ਜਗਿ ਸੋ ਖੇਲੁ ॥

Page 21

Please learn aarths of Gurbani. Don't force me to translate all these tukhs for you because I will not do so next time. It is very easy to copy paste a quote but it takes time to translate it.

Also, the news which I mentioned about being honored by somone wasn't about you but Inder. I don't know why you took it upon yourself. That makes things sound a bit fishy. As for who is honoring who, I just read it online. I didn't get information from the direct source.

Instead he started citing his favorite stories from charittars in a shameful manner. A Sikh posts his favorite sakhi.

It isn't shameful to say chariters are written by Guru Ji or compiled by Guru Ji for Sikhs? If chariters are for Sikhs, there must be a favourite chariter of yours. Samra made if clear on which one is his favourite. Why don't you make clear yours? Is it the same one he likes or is it the one with 1,600 shoes or some other one? If a Sikh only posts favourite Sakhi from Sikh history, a Sikh only reads Sikh history for morals and direction. Not sexual stories written by evil poets who loved cannabis, liqor, opium and sex for 12 hours. Poet says boyfriend and girlfriend has sexual intercourse for 12 hours. How does he know? Was he there at the scene? Would he have given us video if he was here in present times? Just asking questions.

MOD NOTE: SOME POSTS HAVE BEEN MOVED TO THIS THREAD FROM ANOTHER THREAD

[The Khalsa Fauj]

In Bhatt Sawais Prof Sahib Singh states that there isn't 17 bhatts but 11. Bhatts like Jalap writes under the name of Jal and Tal as well, and so on with the other bhatts as well. If the Bhatts can do this in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then whey cant Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were the master of poets, the Jot of Guru Nanak Dev Ji write under different names as well as he allowed his bhatts to do so whilst in the fifth manifestation, Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji.

Prof. Sahib Singh's aarths of Bhatt Swayas aren't accurate so it doesn't matter how many bhatts he thought there were. Guru Nanak's gaddi naheens used Nanak so it must be Nanak or the 10th Nanak isn't the writer. Simple and clear. Guru Nanak's jots use Nanak and it is evident from 1st Paatshah to 10th Paatshah. Poets of Dasam Granth have nothing to do with Sikh dharam.

Why dont you guys (Guru Da Sikh and The Khalsa Fauj) first list why you think Charitro Pakhyan is not bani. The burdan of proof is on you. We already beleive it is bani. It is up to you to prove to us that it is not the krit of Guru Gobind Singh jee based on what you have learnt from Kala Afghana Sahib.

I haven't learned anything from Kala Afgana. I do my own research.

Lets discuss the possibility of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj translating/interpreting or including previous compositions/rachna by previous gurmukhs/rishi/manuis and included them in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib addressing the socio-economic/panj vikars issues that human faces by giving examples, why can't this be possibility? We already have proper chronology and puratan birs of sri dasam granth sahib to prove that. Historically speaking this possibility clearly proven to us by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji including writing of Bhagats (previous compositions) in to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji addressing that importance of spirituality- naam simran/seva.

Also to question, why not include everything in sri guru granth sahib maharaj? its bit silly.

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different cateogory/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

There was no need to bring in writings or rishis or munis or other Brahmans into Sikh dharam. Guru Granth Sahib Ji is complete Guru and gives us complete education of religious aspects, economic aspects, psychology, health, social aspects and even scientific knowledge even though it isn't categorized into separate sections. I could post quotes here but:

How many quotes can I post and translate?

I am very scared and worried of the post getting very long.

Even though Gurbani says now to worry or be scared.

Charitropakhyan don't address the 5 vikaar issue but promote it. It promotes kaam as much as it could in a written format. It also doesn't give any physical education at all. It just gives ideas on how a person can last for 12 hours while having sexual intercourse by consuming cannabis and opium along with liquor. It also gives ideas on how someone can fool spouse or family member and then get away. It also gives ideas on how we can fool someone on name of religion and perform corrupt acts. All in all, it gives ideas to perform bajjar kurehits and other kurehits.

Guru Gobind SIngh Ji would not have kept poets that believed in anti-Gurmat concepts. E.g. Dasam Granth says Maha Singh was a leader of thieves and that Mohakam Singh was an adulterer. Why would Guru Ji defame his own Sikhs by using thier names in stories? Not to mention Chariter 21-23 saying Guru Ji ran away from a Anoop Kaur in fear while forgetting his shoes and blanket. I can go on an on about chariters but I will give two examples:

Chariter # 82 says that Jahagir was a great and just king. Do you accept the person responsible for death of Guru Arjan to be just?

Chariter 71 says Guru Ji told Sikhs to steal turbans from people's heads. Do you accept that Guru Ji acceped stealing and theft when Gurbani says Chor Kee Haamaa Bhray Na Koaye Chor Keeeaa Changaa Keo Hoaye?

[Guest]

There was no need to bring in writings or rishis or munis or other Brahmans into Sikh dharam. Guru Granth Sahib Ji is complete Guru and gives us complete education of religious aspects, economic aspects, psychology, health, social aspects and even scientific knowledge even though it isn't categorized into separate sections.

If we follow that mindset then- same can be argued over bhagata di bani in sri guru granth sahib. Their writings were included in sri guru granth sahib and bought into sikh dharam as well, all the bhagats are tapasvi-rishi/munis. In the past, bhausaria's have rejected bhagata di bani based on the same mindset, obviously that didn't work in their favor, they were excommunicated from the panth now the new breed of bhusarias are using same mindset against charitarpokyan of sri dasam granth sahib.

Does sri guru gobind singh ji needed permission from bhausaria's to decide if writings of previous gurmukhs/rishis should be allowed in sri dasam granth or not.

As for discussing the charitars, i don't have pandit naryan singh teek of sri dasam granth sahib with me so i can't discuss the charitars in detail but i have read close to 200 charitars in the past, if i can remember correctly, every charitar have ending with moral outcome/story of an charitar sort of like- ishara/ warnings to Sikhs. I am sure others can discuss the charitars with you.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Even if we hypothetically accept your theory that the poetry is of Kaal, Raam and Shyaam - they were all part of the Pvanja Kavi - who were a highly respected part of Guru Gobind Singh Maharajs entourage. Their thoughts and writing would have been in complete harmony with that of supreme Master, under whose divine gaze, this beautiful poetry would have been completed?

Looking at it this way, do you still have no regard for these works?

Were Sikhs busy learning Gurmat and preparing for war against the Mughal empire or were they busy listening to entertaining stories from Poets Shyam, Raam and Kaal?

Chariter 30 preaches adultery by placing color in the eyes of husband and having sexual intercourse with boyfriend. Story is as follows:

There was a king named Maanee Sain who was blind in one eye. He had a wife who fell for another king during holi celebrations. Holi is a festival celebrated in India where people place colors on each other. So in the celebrations, Maanee Sain’s wife placed color in his eye which had sight. When he became blind, she called her boyfriend and hugged him with her chest. She kissed him and had sexual intercourse with him for a while. By the time king cleaned his eye and saw, the queen had already performed her act and the other king was gone.

Logically, is it possible to have sexual intecouse at a festival in front of everyone and not let anyone else find out? Anyone who says these stories are for education or morals in mistaken. These stories are for entertainment only and have holes wider than grand canyon.

Chariter 32 . A Punjabi woman named Russ Munjree’s house was attacked by theives. These thieves asked her for all the money she had. She requested them to take everything along with her. She offered herself and asked them to have sex with her all the time. She asked the thieves to accept her as their wife and protect her. Thieves agreed and asked her to prepare food. She mixed poison in the food and killed the thieves. Then she came down and flirted with the king of the thieves. She fooled him by holding his hands and talking to him. While she was talking to him, she heated up oil until it was boiling and poured it on the king of thieves. King of thieves died due to burns and thieves died due to posion. In the morning, she called the police inspector and had everyone tied up.

Now did people find any Gurmat in the story above? This story tells to disgracefully ask theives to have sexual intercourse and become their wife. Even thinking and saying such things are morally corrupt. These sexual stories give no Gurmat and are written to insult women and Guru. These stories are strictly anti-Gurmat . Also, the poets seem to be high on cannabis and liqor; first they killed the leader along with the thieves and then somehow had them arrested. What use is having dead bodies tied up? This story has nothing to do with morals unless the moral is to fool thieves by offering them sex and giving them option to be their wife. An honorable woman of Punjab will never even think about having sexual intercourse outside of marriage and Sikhs aren't going to be looting other people's houses so this story doesn't apply to Sikhs or Sikh dharam at all.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

If we follow that mindset then- same can be argued over bhagata di bani in sri guru granth sahib. Their writings were included in sri guru granth sahib and bought into sikh dharam as well, all the bhagats are tapasvi-rishi/munis. In the past, bhausaria's have rejected bhagata di bani based on the same mindset, obviously that didn't work in their favor, they were excommunicated from the panth now the new breed of bhusarias are using same mindset against charitarpokyan of sri dasam granth sahib.

Does sri guru gobind singh ji needed permission from bhausaria's to decide if writings of previous gurmukhs/rishis should be allowed in sri dasam granth or not.

Oh namastang oh namastang. Who did you namastang to? Why are you linking me to bhasauria? Bhasauria believed in certain sections of Dasam Granth just like kala afgana does. Those bhagats whose writings are included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji were Tat Gurmat bhagats. They weren't lalli shalli bhagats like rishis or munis who couldn't control their ejaculation upon seeing beautiful women. Bhagats in Guru Granth Sahib Ji reached the avastha of being one with God. Rishi munis believed in devi devtas unlike Bhagats who only did naam simran of One Universal God. Bhagat were pooran Tat Gurmat unlike Charitropakhyan which says women are bad and that even God is regretting after creating them. You can copy paste the quotes from other thread here if you like. Other than that, I have been answering questions from many people all day and haven't been able to do much else. I need to get a break. That is why I was saying public live debate is the best because then there is no need to type and wait for replies. Things go much faster and are much more productive.

[Guest]

Oh namastang oh namastang. Who did you namastang to? Why are you linking me to bhasauria? Bhasauria believed in certain sections of Dasam Granth just like kala afgana does. Those bhagats whose writings are included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji were Tat Gurmat bhagats. They weren't lalli shalli bhagats like rishis or munis who couldn't control their ejaculation upon seeing beautiful women. Bhagats in Guru Granth Sahib Ji reached the avastha of being one with God. Rishi munis believed in devi devtas unlike Bhagats who only did naam simran of One Universal God. Bhagat were pooran Tat Gurmat unlike Charitropakhyan which says women are bad and that even God is regretting after creating them. You can copy paste the quotes from other thread here if you like. Other than that, I have been answering questions from many people all day and haven't been able to do much else. I need to get a break. That is why I was saying public live debate is the best because then there is no need to type and wait for replies. Things go much faster and are much more productive.

Who said i m comparing bhagats of sri guru granth sahib ji with rishis manuis writings included in sri dasam granth on spiritual level? They both fullfill different purpose/different stages in life, where one shows the spiritual path and other rishi monis showed how human nature with 5 vikars work through their mastery of studying human nature.

These rishis manuis were masters to study human nature so they created compositions text - panchtantra which have regaled readers a moral story at the end of every story. Some of panchtantras tales were included in sri dasam granth sahib in treh charitar.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Who said i m comparing bhagats of sri guru granth sahib ji with rishis manuis writings included in sri dasam granth on spiritual level? They both fullfill different purpose/different stages in life, where one shows the spiritual path and other rishi monis showed how human nature with 5 vikars work through their mastery of studying human nature.

These rishis manuis were masters to study human nature so they created compositions text - panchtantra which have regaled readers a moral story at the end of every story. Some of panchtantras tales were included in sri dasam granth sahib in treh charitar.

They also wrote kama sutra and koka shastra and now we get hollywood and bollywood movies showing immoral actions of women. Should we now move to the better media option, e.g. video and create movies based on charitropakhyan? Where do you draw the line between profanity and morals? What is sexual content and what isn't? Let me give you sample:

ਜੜ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਨ ਕੀ ਆਸਾ ਤਜੁ। ਕੈ ਰੁਚਿ ਮਾਨਿ ਆਉ ਮੁਹਿ ਕੌ ਭਜੁ। ਕੈ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਾਟਿ ਕਰੈ ਸਤ ਖੰਡਾ। ਕੈ ਦੈ ਮੋਰਿ ਭਗ ਬਿਖੈ ਲੰਡਾ। ੧੧। ਰਾਜ ਕੁਅਰ ਅਤ ਹੀ ਤਬ ਡਰਾ। ਕਾਮ ਭੋਗ ਤਿਹ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗ ਕਰਾ। ਇਹ ਛਲ ਸੈ ਵਾ ਕੋ ਛਲਿ ਗਈ। ਰਾਇ ਬਿਰਾਗਿਯਹਿ ਭੋਗਤ ਭਈ। ੧੨। ਅੰਤ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਨ ਕੋ ਕਿਨੂੰ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ। ਬਿਧਨਾ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਯੋ। ਜਿਨ ਇਹ ਕਿਯੌ ਸਕਲ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ। ਵਹੈ ਪਛਾਨਿ ਭੇਦ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਹਾਰੋ। ੧੩। ੧। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੩੧੨, ੫.੪ ੮੭}

Kai Jurr Praanan Kee Aassa Tujj| Kai Ruch Maan Aao Muhe Kau Bhajj| Kai Tuhe Kaat Krai Satt Khanda| Kai Dai Morr Bhug Vikhai Lundaa| 11| Raaj Kuaar Aatt He Tub Draa| Kaam Bhog The Triyyeh Sung Karaa| Eh Shull Sai Vaa Ko Shull Gaee| Raaye Beraageyehh Bhogatt Bhaee| 12| Aant Triyyan Ko Kinnu Naa Paayo| Bidhnaa Sirraj Bahur Bashuttaayo| Jin Eh Keyau Sakkal Sansaaro| Vhai Pashaan Bhaidd Triyyah Haaro| 13| 1| {Chariter 312, 5.4, 87}

Hey fool! Either forget about living or have desireful sexual intercourse with me. Either I will cut you into seven pieces or place your penis (lunda) into my vagina (bhug). 11. Prince was very scared at that moment. He had sexual intercourse with the woman. She ployed him with this ploy and had sexual intercourse with the young prince (Beraag Raaye). 12. No one has known the end of women. Even God is regretting after creating them. The one who has created this creation, even he has failed to understand women. 13.

[Kam1825]

Khalsa Fauj wrote

"Prof. Sahib Singh's aarths of Bhatt Swayas aren't accurate so it doesn't matter how many bhatts he thought there were. Guru Nanak's gaddi naheens used Nanak so it must be Nanak or the 10th Nanak isn't the writer. Simple and clear. Guru Nanak's jots use Nanak and it is evident from 1st Paatshah to 10th Paatshah. Poets of Dasam Granth have nothing to do with Sikh dharam."

Can i suggest you do not use any referance to this teeka anymore as you have shown it is flawed and discredited. After 35 years of research as Guru Da Sikh said this was the most accurate teeka, but i agree with you Khalsa Fauj not alot accurate with this teeka. For this reason i suggest Sahib Singh's Teeka is not mentioned or used again and for this reason we use a teeka you think is accurate!

[shaheediyan]

Chritar Thirty

Tale of Chaachar Mati

Chaupaee

There Raja Chiter Singh to the Minister, ‘Whatever you said, it has

eliminated any treachery from my mind.

‘Whatever you tell me, it is like putting nectar into my ears.’(1)

Dohira

‘Concentrating on your mind, body and soul, Oh My Minister, I request

you,

‘What ever number of Auspicious Chritars you know, relate them to

me.’(2) There was one-eyed Raja whose woman was a pervert.

(This is) how she enjoyed with her friend after putting coloured

powder in the eyes of the Raja.(3)

Chaupaee

‘With the approach of the spring, bloomed the hearts of the males

and females.

Every house was showered with bliss and they revelled in singing

with clapping hands.(4)

There was one female called Chaachar Mall who was pretty and

endowed with a very slim body.

There was one Raja named Mani Sen who he had a wife called

Chaachar Mati (5)

(78)

When she saw a handsome acrobat, she felt as if she was shot by the

Cupid arrow.

All her mind, body and soul were subdued, and she became like an

acquired slave.( 6)

Dohira

The songs were recited in every home and every home had dances

the beats of the drums.(7)

There came the acrobat, who seemed to be the Raja of all the acrobats,

And he, whose name was Navrang, was epitome of the Cupid.(8)

Chaupaee

Holy, the festival of colours was at full swing in the town, and every

man and woman danced and sang.

The old enjoyed with old and threw flowers on each other.(9)

Dohira

In the company of drums-beats, songs of Holy were Sung in every house.

The harmonies were flowing at every door-step and music was report

in all the households.(10)

The damsels were singing the songs in unison and enacting plays,

The music flowing out of flutes, trumpets and bongos was prevailing

all over.(11)

Chaupaee

The males and the females were sharing the amusements.

From both sides colours were sprinkled under the efficacy of

music.(12)

Dohira

In the multitude of males, females and the damsels,

The saffron colour apparels were predominant.(13)

Every household was busy in playing Holy and singing jovially,

The voices of bongos accompanied by the dances were emanating

from eachhouse.(l4 )

That young man was entrapped by her looks,

And the Rani, as well, was immediately entangled in his love.(l5)

Every man and woman was savouring the songs of spring,

When, suddenly, the dust-storm subdued the vision.(l6)

Soon after the music was ensued the voices of the flutes started to emanate

The melodies, accompanied with the drums, commenced to flow again.(17)

(79)

Chaupaee .

The sprinkling of colours became so intense that even the hand was not

visible

The Rani put colour in her husband’s eyes and blinded him(18)

Dohira

He was already blind of one eye and other was shut with the colours too:

Becoming total blind, the Raja fell flat on the ground.( 19)

The Rani, then, called Navrang at that instant.

She passionately kissed him and fully enjoyed.(20)

By the time the Raja got up and cleared his vision,

The Rani, after enjoying heart-fully made the acrobat to run away.(21)(1)

I have had no education in understanding the objectives of these charitras, but when seeing them in full (unlike the selective lines Khalsa Fudge quotes) one can see how the story develops. We are told at the start that Chaachar Mati is a pervert. The reality of society is simply being relayed here - both women and men are infected with this aspect of kaam. It also shows how man can be easily deceived, and may even relate that a disabled man is more vulnerable/susceptible to deception. It shows how easy it is for one to deceive, and that one should not think that those infected with such a high level of kaam, make exceptions on holy/celebratory days.

Most scholars agree that the chritras represent cautionary tales, as already exist in most cultures around the world. It was only with the onset of 'Victorian Puritanism' around the world, that the traditional cautionery tale genre suffered a vritual death. Today we have an explosion in adult media, why, because people see it as liberating themselves, so much so, that they take this liberation to dangerous and a-moral extremes. If it wasn't for the suppression of what really happened in society (good and bad) and the normality of sex, we wouldn't be living in an age where sex is advertised, celebrated, sung, watched etc etc.

These Afghani mureeds (whether they admit it or not) are simply a perfect example of Victorian influence - it was from from these Victorian schools, where the 1st 'voices of reason' arose in the late 19th/early 20th century.

The many Gursikh, Sants, Academics, Theologians from 1700 to 1900 were obviously incapable of Gurmat thought, it took a Victorian education to 'see the light'!

[shaheediyan]

"Chritar Thirty two

Tale of Ras Manjri

Chaupaee

Listen, my Raja, I relate to you one tale, which will provide tremendous relief

In the country of Punjab, there lived a woman from whom the Moon

had acquired its brilliance.(1)

Ras Manjri was her name and on seeing her one’s mind attained bliss.

Her husband had departed for a foreign land which gave her a big

shock.(2)

Dohira

When thieves learned that she had lot of wealth at her house,

They took torches and headed towards her house.(3)

Chaupaee

When she saw the thieves coming, she said,

‘Listen, you, I am your woman, and considering as your own, protect me.(4)

Dohira

‘You can steel everything from the house and take me with you as weIl,

‘And, in numerous ways, enjoy with me.(5)

‘First I will prepare meals for you in my house,

‘And then take me with you and savour me heart fully’.(6)

Chaupaee

The thieves thought that she was right, she was their own.

‘First we have meals and then let her become our woman.’(7)

Dohira

The woman sent the thieves to upstairs,

(81)

And herself, putting the saucepan on fire, commenced cooking.(8)

Chaupaee

After sending them up in the pent-house, she came down and locked

the door behind

She, then settled down to prepare the meal and put poison in that.(9)

Dohira

With poison in she presented meal to the thieves,

And herself locked the door and came down.(10)

Chaupaee

(To leader of the thieves who was in the kitchen) She talked to him

jovially

by giving her hand in his.

She gave him pleasure through her talks while she put oil (on fire) to

boil.(11)

Dohira

When the oil was hot enough, with stealthy looks,

She dumped it on his head and thus killed him.(12)

The leader of the thieves was killed with the boiling oil and others

died of eating poison.

In the morning she went and related the whole story to (he chief of

the police.(l3)(1)

Thirty-second Parable of Auspicious Chritars

Conversation of the Raja and the Minister,

Completed with Benediction. (32)(618)

To be continued."

Just out of interest, what would you have advised Ras Manjri to do in this situation - give the thieves a sermon?

This is a tale of cunning, courage and how a woman has protected her honour against all odds.

Depending on how one looks at it, it could also be a lesson for the then persecuted, unhomed chalda vaheer Khalsa, a lesson to not succomb to kaamic thoughts and offers when asking villagers for help etc - as there were many spies male and female during those times that would have used much trickery to entrap the subjects of their reward (£$). It could be looked at allegorically. Just my opinion in any case.

There are always lessons to be learnt.