user2969

@Sher How long have you lived in Punjab? How many villages have you stayed in and for how many days? All you are doing it quote online news reports. That is not the correct way to judge how a particular society is working. I have lived in Punjab and moved around in many villages all my life. Caste observations are there but I am restricting myself to Gurdwarey issue. Its nowhere like you are portraying. I have been dragged into endless arguments online where people like you keep on coming up with online links and talk out of no practical ground knowledge. I remember a hindu guy from England who had seemingly endless online and he would quote chapters and chapters trying to prove that Hinduism was the best religion and the vedantic spirituality was the highest point in world spirituality and so on and so forth. He himself had never even once visited India! And I tried to counter him saying that Hindu society was very oppresive towards lower castes and that they had trampled over the lower castes for thousands of years. But he would refute my arguments and come up with online links and chapters and chapters of books. I used to wonder how much time and energy he had to do such online research. I gave up. And you know what happened? He had been talking for a while about trying to find a Guru for himself in India. He made a journey and stayed with his relatives in Delhi. He visited some teerth asthaans. He kept up his journalling on the forums. And what turned out? All his illusion about the India society and its glorious vedic ideals turned out to be false. He then started condemning common Indian Hindus and called them as unread and uneducated and this and that. He still would not accept that his utopian ideas based solely on his online reading and offline books were wrong in the first place. He just took to blame Indian Hindu masses for their Intelligence and understanding. I am feeling that this present conversation is going to take a similar direction. I hardly ever post on these forums because in this present times of Kaljug version 2.0 (reloaded) even a smallest spark can start a wildfire; everyone is ready to argue and fight. I shall drop the topic here. I have said that as far as visiting gurdwarey is concerned and partaking in langar, the situation is nowhere as is being presented by you. I say this based on real life experience of 40 years in Panjab. I do not need to study any report online to make a judgement. Yes the caste observations are there but I commented on Gurdwarey situation.

Listen brothers, I know what you are trying to say but try and get the point I am trying to convey. Casteism does exist in Sikh community, of course. And the fact that in many places there are gurdwarey such as Mazabhi, ramgarhiya, ravidassia gurdwarey. But nobody stops anyone from visiting any gurdwara. A mazhabhi does matha-tek in other gurdwarey and nobody objects. Same with langar. The individual cases of dispute are about control at the village and dispute is never truly religious in nature unlike Hindu community where the dispute is truly religious in nature. The issue in the video you posted is a dispute about labour wages. In the second video it talks about discrimination, which I agree does exist. But the discrimination is about control and management. Its not about rules of who can visit which place. not a officially socially accepted norm. It has always been a deviation from the norm. That is why I said till now I have never seen a case of any dispute in my personal life. My rishteydarian are spread out all over southern Panjab with my own village in Haryana near Kaithal, my relatives in Patiala, Sangrur, Nabha. My Nanke in Faridkot district, my massian in Bathinda region, my Bhuaa jis in Fatehgarh Sahib region, my other relatives in Ludhiana etc. The individual cases are mostly rooted in other reasons such as control and caste domination and not truly religious issue. Yes caste observations is a social fact in all punjabi communities. But you can travel all over Punjab and see that even though people follow caste practices, there are no norms such as low caste being openly banned from visiting a Gurdwara. Its a complex issue to explain and all I can say is, do not form a final opinion based upon one or two news report which are often politically manipulated.

​Out of the many can you name one Gurdwara which refuses entry to a Dalit? ਇਹ ਬੜਾ ਵੱਡਾ ਇਲਜ਼ਾਮ ਲਾਇਆ ਐ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਤੇ . ਹੁਣ ਸਾਫ਼ ਕਰੋ ਕਿਹੜਾ ਗੁਰਦਵਾਰਾ ਐਂ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ? ਕੋਈ ਕਰ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦਾ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਕਿਸੇ ਜਾਤ ਦੇ ਅਧਾਰ ਤੇ ਵਿਤਕਰਾ ਕਰਨਾ ਕਨੂੰਨੀ ਜੁਰਮ ਹੈ . ਤੇ ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਵੀ ਵੱਡੀ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ ਕੀ ਥੋਨੂ ਪਤਾ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀ ਦਲਿਤ ਅੱਜ ਕੱਲ ਕਿਸੇ ਤੋਂ ਉੰਨੀ ਇੱਕੀ ਬਰਦਾਸ਼ਤ ਨੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ , ਮਰਨ ਮਾਰਨ ਤੇ ਉਤਾਰੂ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਨੇ. ਸੋ ਇਹ ਜੋ ਕੋਰਾ ਝੂਠ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਹੈ ਇਸ ਬਾਰੇ ਦੱਸੋ . ਤਾਂ ਕਿ ਗੱਲ ਸਿੱਖ ਜਗਤ ਦੇ ਮੂਹਰੇ ਆਵੇ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਦਰੁਸਤ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਸਕੇ.

​I have lived all my life in Punjab, I have not seen a single gurdwara which refused entry to a dalit. Nor was anyone refused in langar. Yes it might have been the case in distant past but not now. Yes there are gurdwaras which are created by particular community and managed by them. But the segregation is limited to management and control. Nobody is refused entry to Mattha-tek SGGS or partake langar. This is a lie.

The point to going and attending somewhere is whether you shall be able to conduct yourself with a respect and dignity that becomes a gursikh. If you shall be able to conduct yourself like a Gursikh you can go to a prom or anywhere else. At a prom probably there might be flirtations with opposite sex, there will be liberties taken, there might be alcohol or some drug or something like that. Ask yourself what kind of environment would there be? Would there be focus on looking sexy and attractive and impressing others and looking cool? All these values are not in line with being a gursikh.

I have had similar experience at sikhphilosophy.net. Most of the regulars over there are not worried about bhagti at all. They are not concerned with the spiritual world at all. In fact as you said most of them are atheist. They seek to interpret Sikhism according to their own modern ways and dismiss everything that is deep or mystical. They have different interpretations about what Sikhi is and none of it includes naam jaap or even baani jaap. For them baani is just meant to be understood. If you point out that bani incessantly tells us recite naam and baani they don't care. Most of the time they make jokes of these things.

One of the popular techniques of simran is swas swas simran. When the breath goes in 'Wahe' is uttered and breath comes out 'Guru' is uttered. My question is how can one say 'Wahe' out loudly when inhaling? In these links although it is claimed that Wahe is uttered while inhaling, but I can not understand how it is possible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0jP10mUHSo Can anyone explain this please?

Please forgive me for not being updated on the issue, but this phenomenon of sikh girls being exploited by muslim guys, is this quite widespread or large? Here is Canada I have not heard much, although I do have have seen a few sikh girls married into other religions. But then I am not in the youngsters group so I may not know much.

Does anybody have a pdf copy of 'Anand Sarovar- Jeevan Katha of Sant Baba Nand Singh ji'? I have searched online and the file is to be found only on scribd.com. And although I am reading on scribd, I am finding it VERY frustrating. As popular a website as scribd is, the interface is extremely frustrating. I hate it. I need a pdf copy which I can read in my Foxit reader. Please share if anyone has a copy.

I can bet you were brought up in India. Most of us from there have the Ghulam Pravirti. We talk a lot and try to sound intelligent but in our hearts we hold 'Angrez' in a very high esteem. If an Angrez says a word condescending praise our chest fills up with pride. And in our heart we actually do not hold grudge that it were the Angrez who connivingly usurped the Sikh State. All we remember about the British is that they gave us the governance, the trains and the roads. And since they offered us a choice for our homeland in the end their every doing of the past automatically becomes okay.

No further discussion of the topic? Coming from another forum where the thread on topic has been the top one since Gurbaksh Singh ji started his fast with updates everyday, www.sikhawareness.com seems to be lacking in panthic feeling. The issue raised by Gurbaksh Singh ji should have struck a chord deep in hearts of everyone who feels him/herself to be a part of panth.

In which katha does he mentions this. Can you please link to it? And can you please tell us the address of Baba Bahadur Singh ji too?

The translation of the Shabad is incorrect in my view. Instead of being an indication towards usage of Pranayama the Shabad actually is a warning and a comment that pranayama can not lead you to union with Waheguru. To understand the import of the Shabad one has to see that the Rahao lines are always the main theme and from them one can find out whats the correct Bhaav of the Shabad. The Rahao lines are: ਮੂੜੇ ਕਾਇਚੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾ ॥ ਨਹ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦੁ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Oh fool why are you lost into this bharam (of pranayama)? By this way you have not realised (cheeneya) the Parmanand (Waheguru) by becoming a true bairagee. Some points: 1. The lines have been addressed to a so called bairagi who has given up societal living and has spent time doing practices such as pranayama and other yogic techniques but has not been able to realize Waheguru yet. 2. There is a strong reprimand that the addressee has been indulging in something futle (which from the context one can see to be as pranayama). 3. It is also clearn that the way addressee has been going, on that way Parmanand cannot be cheeneya jaye (experienced or realized). So what is the final word of Guru ji in this Shabad? It is in this line: ਭਣਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਨੋ, ਰਵੈ ਜੇ ਹਰਿ ਮਨੋ, ਮਨ ਪਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥ Sayeth Nanak Jan, if you remember the Hari in your mind, the mind shall drink Amrit along with Pawan (every breath/prana movement) Some points: 1. The way to meet Waheguru according to Guruji is 'To Remember Waheguru within the Mind'. 2. If this is done, the mind shal drink Amrit with every pawan, every breath. This is indicating towards Swaas Swaas Simran, remembering Waheguru with every breath. This is the Bhagti Maarg! Remember Waheguru! Here is a translation: ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਸੂਰ ਸਰੁ ਸੋਸਿ ਲੈ, ਸੋਮ ਸਰੁ ਪੋਖਿ ਲੈ, ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਰਤੁ, ਸੁ ਸਨਬੰਧੁ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ Dry up the surya Saru/pond (fiery nature), fill up the moon pond(cool/shaant nature), with the Jugti (Swas swas simran, as pointed out in the final line) kill your ego, and this way establish a relationship with Waheguru ਮੀਨ ਕੀ ਚਪਲ, ਸਿਉ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਖੀਐ, ਉਡੈ ਨਹ ਹੰਸੁ. ਨਹ ਕੰਧੁ ਛੀਜੈ ॥੧॥ With the Jugti (swas swas simran) the fish like movement of mind is stopped, the soul shall not fly away from Waheguru and the body shall not be ravaged by desires. ਮੂੜੇ ਕਾਇਚੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾ ॥ ਨਹ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦੁ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ O fool why do you loose yourself in delusion (of pranayama)? You have not experience the Parmanand (Waheguru) by being a true Bairagee. ਅਜਰ ਗਹੁ ਜਾਰਿ ਲੈ, ਅਮਰ ਗਹੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਲੈ, ਭ੍ਰਾਤਿ ਤਜਿ ਛੋਡਿ, ਤਉ ਅਪਿਉ ਪੀਜੈ ॥ (With the same Jugti) catch and burn the unburnable, catch and kill the deathless, leave aside all doubts, then you shall drink the Amrit. ਮੀਨ ਕੀ ਚਪਲ, ਸਿਉ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਖੀਐ, ਉਡੈ ਨਹ ਹੰਸੁ, ਨਹ ਕੰਧੁ ਛੀਜੈ ॥੨॥ --as above-- ਭਣਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਨੋ, ਰਵੈ ਜੇ ਹਰਿ ਮਨੋ, ਮਨ ਪਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥ Sayeth Nanak Jan, if you remember the Hari with (all) your mind, the mind shall drink Amrit along with Pawan (every breath/prana movement, swaas swaas simran) ਮੀਨ ਕੀ ਚਪਲ, ਸਿਉ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਖੀਐ, ਉਡੈ ਨਹ ਹੰਸੁ, ਨਹ ਕੰਧੁ ਛੀਜੈ ॥੩॥੯॥ --as above-- Lastly I feel that this does not mean pranayama is something we should all run away from as being a sin. Its just that Guru Nanak's Bhagti Marg is Swas Swas simran and that Waheguru cannot be met by breath control. He can be met by Apaa Varna ( sacrificing oneself completely), by remembring Him all the time , every moment, and this is done through every Swaas.

From a linguistic point of view I shall try and explain. I shall give some detailed background before answering your specific query. ੳ ਅ ੲ ਸ ਹ ਕ ਖ ਗ ਘ ਙ (K varga) ਚ ਛ ਜ ਝ ਞ (Ch varga) ਟ ਠ ਡ ਢ ਣ (T varga) ਤ ਥ ਦ ਧ ਨ (t varga) ਪ ਫ ਬ ਭ ਮ (P varga) ਯ ਰ ਲ ਵ ੜ (Y varga) ਸ਼ ਖ਼ ਗ਼ ਜ਼ ਫ਼ ਲ਼ There are 2 things this varanmala depicts. One is the sound and the other is the name of the letter. So the letter ਕ is used to depict the sound Ka (linguistically written as /ਕ/ ) and the name of the letter is 'kakka'. All the K varga sounds are produced from the back part of the tongue by touching it with the junction of the soft palette and hard pallette of the roof of the mouth. All the Ch varga sounds are produced from the middle part of the tongue by touching it with the hard pallete of the roof of the mouth. All the T varga sounds are produced by turning the blade of the tongue backwards and touching it with the hard pallette of the roof of the mouth. All the t varga sounds are produced by touching the blade of the tongue with the ridge of the from teeth. All the P varga sounds are produced by closing the lips together. The first line, the Y varga and the pairi-bindi varga are produced from various places. And now to the specific query. First let us understand what sound is produced with the letter ਙ. Since it falls in the K varga it shall produced by touching that part of the tongue with the roof of the mouth as are all the letters before it. So try and speak the letters ਕ ਖ ਗ ਘ. You would see that one particular part of the tongue is raised and touched with the roof of the mouth. You must use the same part to speak the letter ਙ. Now what is this sound? This sound is used in punjabi in a hidden manner. it is no longer used in an open manner. Let me give an example. Take the word Ganga. lets break the sound linguistically. ਗੰਗਾ = /ਗ/ + /ਙ/ + /ਗ/ + /ਆ/ There are 4 sounds used in speaking the word Ganga and these are as shown above. So from here we now know which sound is represented by the letter ਙ. It is the sound which is represented by the tippi in word Ganga or Kanga. Now what is the name of the letter ਙ? How do we speak the letter out as oorha, eirhi ? You say it something like unga. Actually while speaking /g/ sound is produced but in a very soft manner. Here is a link to my dropbox audio file pronouncing this sound. https://www.dropbox.com/s/964untbuf0upk7m/Voice%20001.m4a Similar is the case with the letter ਞ And here is how to pronounce it: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tfymsxm0a4mi34g/Voice%20002.m4a

Brief points: 1. Kaam (desire/lust) has been counted as the first one amongst the five enemies of the jeev-aatma. Kaam is lust for anything NOT just sex. The word comes from Kaamna, desire. 2. Another enemy is 'Moh' or attachment. This refers to the feeling of taking this world, the possessions and people to be true and everlasting and not wanting to let go of them. It also refers to forgetting that we ourselves are impermanent and dying every moment (physical) 3. Sexual relationship apparently fosters both of these enemies. But saying it as a matter of fact, after some time of married life, interest in sex settles down to a comfortable level naturally once you are over the excitement of it. 4.Although Kaam is to be overcome, there is no need to abstain from sex forcefully. When you adopt a spiritual attitude in life and you connect more and more with Gurbani, it shall go down naturally, it is not to be forced. 5. As far as taking Amrit is concerned, one should never hurry it up. One should first start living the lifestyle, get up at amrit vela, do Nitnem, do Naam Jaap, get acquainted with various Baanis. After at least a year or so of this lifestyle when you are sure you can live it up, then go for it. 6 The focus should not be on abstaining from sex and being worried over krodha or being worried that you shall develop attachment. The focus should be to connect with Gurbani more and more and to do Simran more and more.

Well put.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਆਕਾਰ - ਹੁਕਮ ਦੇ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਆਕਾਰ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਇਥੇ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਨੂੰ ਬਿੰਦੀ ਲਗਾ ਬੋਲਨਾ ਹੈ. It means THROUGH Hukam. Here it does not stand for Hukmee the God. Here it means Hukmeen, THROUGH Hukam.

I know this is an old thread but I wish to add a reply to this question as nobody else has answered it and new readers may think that the questioner has a valid point that Gurus did not follow grammer properly or fully and that Gurbani is not according to grammer. Mithar said that Quran has perfect Arabic grammer so why does SGGSJ is different in this regard. According to the Mithar's logic: Quran is written in the Arabic language and that is why it follows Arabic grammer. Hindu scriptures are written in Sanskrit language and therefore they follow Sanskrit grammer. Question arises, in what language is SGGS written? and which language grammer should SGGS follow? Language of Gurbani The basic language of Gurbani is Sadh Bhasha or sadhukri, which was an amalgam of all major north indian language of the time. As for vocabulary Gurbani uses vocabulary from punjabi, brijh bhasha, sanskrit, arabic, persian and lot of other north indian languages. Grammar of Gurbani It has to be kept in mid that Gurbani is poetry. When you listen to a poem in punjabi you understand the meaning of the lines even though the subject, object and verb sequence does not follow the standard grammar. how? Because you in the background of the previous knowledge of the punjabi prose language you can easily see the variation and still derive meaning out of it. Similarly is the case with Gurbani. So what is the issue with Gurbani Grammar? When Gurus wrote Gurbani down they used a particular script and this script is known as Gurmukhi. While doing so they used unique spelling structures in which sihari, and aunkarh and other lagaas and matraas lent special meaning to the words according to their placements. In Gurus times these rules of lagaas and matraas were implicitly known and therefore the need to explicitly teach these or write these rules down never came up. In modern times people like Prof Sahib Singh analysed the spellings and tried to discover the rules of these spellings or lagaa/matraas. But they were not 100% successful in finding out all the rules. There were many places of confusion and doubt. Therefore it is said that perfect Gurbani Grammar is yet to be discovered. Is Gurbani independant of a grammar? Many people, when they encounter a difficult gurbani pankti which cannot be understood according to the presently discovered Gurbani grammar, say that Gurbani is independent of a grammar. But they are wrong. Why? Because: As long as a communication of a language is meaningful, it can NEVER be considered to be independent of a grammar, simply because grammar is just a description of inherent and hidden structure and meaning rules being followed in that communication. So while a meaningful sentence may not follow a particular grammar or a grammar rule it does NOT mean it does not follow ANY grammar rule. It simply means that we have not yet understood the rule it follows. Here I'd like to re-iterate that Gurbani grammer is basically grammer of Gurbani's Lagaas and Matraas. The issue of understanding a Gurbani grammer is about deciphering why an aunkarh is used and why a sihaari has been used etc etc. The issue is of DECIPHERING the SPELLINGS, THE LAGAS AND THE MATRAS. It is NOT the spoken aspect but the written spellings which are the issue. Some spellings have been clearly understood while some have not yet been understood. Confusion between the terms 'Gurmukhi' and 'Punjabi' Punjabi is a language and Gurmukhi is the SCRIPT. Gurmukhi is the name of the punjabi alphabet (oorha, airha etc), also known as the varanmaala. Punjabi is the language which is spoken and understood. It should be pointed out here that Gurmukhi is NOT the only script in which Punjabi is written. In Pakistan Punjabi is written in SHAHMUKHI script, the urdu script. Any student of MA (Punjabi) knows this, that scores and scores of medieval manuscripts including kissa kaavs such as Waris Heer, Puran Bhagat Kadaryaar are mostly written in Shahmukhi script. So in olden times when Sikh students used to learn 'Gurmukhi' in gurdwaras they were NOT learning a language, they were learning a script, a way of writing the language down. It was another matter that along with that they were also Gurbani which uses not only punjabi but also other languages. What is language and when does Grammar come in? Ask any linguistic professor of a university (eg Prof Jagjit SIngh from PU Chandigarh or anybody from Punjabi University Patiala ) and he shall say, 'A Native speaker always speaks perfect Grammar!'. Why? To understand this we have understand the relationship between grammar and language. When a cultural group communicates using vocal medium it reaches a point where its 'language' becomes complex ie the token sounds evolve into words which are not just 'names' of things, but also names of 'action' and names of qualities etc. And these tokens are sewn into complex formation known as sentences. These complex formations, the sentences, are themselves of various types, sizes, length etc and they come in various regional variations. At this point usually a script is created of adapted from pre-existing scripts (such as Gurmukhi script which is a derivative of ancient Brahmi script of India). After a loooong journey in time somebody comes along and decided to sit down and write a Grammar book of that language. He analyses the words and sentence structure of that language and how meanings are created through these complex formations and in this manner discovers the grammar of that language. If this set of rules is accepted by the majority of the population of that cultural group then this grammar becomes a reference point for the future. Usually a standard grammar is just a description of the dominant version of the language. There are always many regional variations and flavours. Modern linguists are of the view that just because these regional variations may differ from standard grammar of a particular language does not mean that they are not grammatically correct. Therefore when a native speaker speaks, the issue of being grammatically correct never comes up, because grammar is nothing but a description of the abstract and hidden rules that the native speaker follows. Its the grammar who should follow the native speaker and not vice-versa.

Don't look down on 'those still there'. Most of those who come from cities in Punjab, regret coming here. India on whole is doing a lot well as compared to before in terms of economics. In India for those students who have good marks and good degrees, jobs are available and pretty well paid too. Whereas over here in west we do hard labour most of the time. ( please note that I not saying that Punjab is without problems. There are plenty of them too) Sikhs here in west talk about Khalistan, whereas nobody in Punjab even mentions that let alone want that. Creating a Khalistan is useless Utopian ideal at least in today's situation. The focus should be : 1. Becoming better human beings 2. Treating others better 3. Becoming more spiritual (have a desire of spirituality, in our case it will be gurbani, naam simran) 4. Spreading this spirituality to others (but only in a gentle way, not aggressive selling) 5. Fighting for Truth and justice (this of course includes the Sikh issues of the current and past) If you take the present day Punjab and create a Khalistan out of it, it shall nothing more than a new political state. Will it be a state which runs on high morals? I highly doubt it.