CdnSikhGirl

p.s. - I currently serve on the management committee here as treasurer. My sangat supported me when I fought for the right of Sikh women to tie turban in Canadian military, and when the story made it to even Indian newspapers when I became the first Sikh woman to tie dastar in Royal Canadian Navy, my Sangat bestowed me with siropa for opening the door for future Singhnis to do the same without having to fight for it. I am trying to be the change I want to see, by trying to make a difference where I can to uplift other Sikh women and girls. I don't actually do much langar seva... I was never good at cooking. But I try to do seva wherever else I can. Outside of being on the executive committee, I am part of the Defence Visible Minority Advisory Group and helped plan a National event at the base here, involving all the different ethnic communities and I was liaison for the Sikh community and the Hindu community here locally to raise awareness of who we are. All this even though I am not Punjabi. I am a gori who embraced Sikhi for the ideals it teaches in Gurbani about equality.

But to see people twist one liners from Gurbani to mean the opposite of what it's actually saying in order to justify women being inferior to men, just irks me to the core! Its disheartening for Singhnis!!!! Not to pick on you Paapiman but that one liner you posted can not be taken in the meaning you tried to apply to it. It has to be in context to the shabad. sorry... its not a poke at you personally, just this whole movement among the young Singhs that seem to want to pick on Singhnis for no other reason than to stir up trouble or feed their male egos. Trust me you aren't the only one on here and its not your fault that you were brought up or taught that way of thinking. That way of thinking though will not unify the panth. Eventually, it would end up with an all male membership with the girls all leaving to marry outside Sikhi and pursue other spiritual paths that do truly treat them as equals. It's inevitable unless attitudes change. Women taking subordinate roles may have been fine 500 years ago when they came from very bad position prior. But as time goes on, we as a human race need to realize what Gurbani was saying all along:

Page 599, Line 2
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||
As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Satkirin_Kaur, I understand where you coming from. The problem isn't with overall sikh community, I beleive its sikh youths who are becoming more and more fanatic day by day, hell bent on arguing/discussing on nitty-gritty issues. I say what we call it vehli janta- sikhs youths just need every day different entertainment to argue about, sikh youths feed off from conflicts they will get utterly bored on full unity. Its no different than some joe blow going out every day to look for various different entertainment, conflict views -political/social and be incite and engaged in. Its highly addictive..how do i know this? Because i was one of those dick heads who did that in the past but by maharaj kirpa can't be arsed with it anymore. It's worn out as i now spent more time with elder gursikhs rather than sikh youths, because now days sikh youths without elder gursikhs guidance in each and every step are utterly hopeless affair.

For example- Taksal, AKJ, Nanaksar- elder Gursikhs even though there are major differences such as - taksal and nananksar does not have women as panj pyares, but akj does even despite of those differences you don't see - taksal elder gursikhs going to akj gursikhs to super impose their views etc , call them manmat, slag, villify them etc and vice versa. Elder gursikhs are way too cool mellow, open minded, speaking voice as one unit. Look at sant jarnail singh bhindranwale even though he held panj pyares being men only view, he was pretty cool with akj despite of them having five women as panj pyares. You know why they didn't care about these issues? It didn't matter ultimately as they were connected on whole different unified higher level- NAAM they can feel the oneness within each other.

If those elder gursikhs from AKJ, Nanaksar, taksal only knew amount of shit goes on cyber internet sikhi facebook, they will beat hell out of us(metaphor) for wasting such a precious time on internet talking about some outer arbitrary differences which has no bearing on individual sikh spiritual journey instead of meditating on Naam.

Sorry for my own rant.

SRM contains the basic that was agreed upon. It doesn't mean that you cant do extra beyond that. Its not telling you not to!
Also... following on your comment....How can the Panth accept a discriminatory document that puts mother sisters daughters as inferior?

Satkirin_Kaur penji we mentioned the above shabad at the same time..lol..what are odds eh? hehe - enjoy

Truth Seeker, here is my understanding of how Creator is formless, and is also all forms:

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ang 736:



The Ultimate truth is ONE pure Universal Creative (formless) Consciousness. From this ALL forms arise. Consciousness doesn't just happen, consciousness just 'is' because its the base truth to all reality.

Think of it as a dream. This reality is as a dream... SGGSJ likens it to a dream many times over. Think when you dream at night. The 'YOU' that's dreaming essentially is formless (Your consciousness...your physical body is not in the dream). There are many characters in the dream, and they are ALL you. Even if you only interact and experience as one at one time only. In reality, every character, every blade of grass, every stone are you. While in the dream, those forms seem just as real as forms in this reality do.... until you wake up. Now, understand WHO is the dreamer really? This reality is another dream.

Creator, has no form (Ultimate reality), but has many millions of forms (everything within the dream). Those forms can even have their own dreams where they create again...a dream within a dream.

Kirtan Sohila describes it as thus: "You have thousands of Lotus Feet, and yet You do not have even one foot. You have no nose, but you have thousands of noses."

Creator / Consciousness has no form. It just 'IS' Yet, through its own creation, it is ALL FORMS. Yet all those forms (us) are only experiencing through a tiny veil of consciousness. The Doer, the Experiencer behind ALL of us, is one in the same, but our experiences differ because of this illusion of separateness. It's really ONE dream and ONE dreamer only.

Truth Seeker, here is my understanding of how Creator is formless, and is also all forms:

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ang 736:



The Ultimate truth is ONE pure Universal Creative (formless) Consciousness. From this ALL forms arise. Consciousness doesn't just happen, consciousness just 'is' because its the base truth to all reality.

Think of it as a dream. This reality is as a dream... SGGSJ likens it to a dream many times over. Think when you dream at night. The 'YOU' that's dreaming essentially is formless (Your consciousness...your physical body is not in the dream). There are many characters in the dream, and they are ALL you. Even if you only interact and experience as one at one time only. In reality, every character, every blade of grass, every stone are you. While in the dream, those forms seem just as real as forms in this reality do.... until you wake up. Now, understand WHO is the dreamer really? This reality is another dream.

Creator, has no form (Ultimate reality), but has many millions of forms (everything within the dream). Those forms can even have their own dreams where they create again...a dream within a dream.

Kirtan Sohila describes it as thus: "You have thousands of Lotus Feet, and yet You do not have even one foot. You have no nose, but you have thousands of noses."

Creator / Consciousness has no form. It just 'IS' Yet, through its own creation, it is ALL FORMS. Yet all those forms (us) are only experiencing through a tiny veil of consciousness. The Doer, the Experiencer behind ALL of us, is one in the same, but our experiences differ because of this illusion of separateness. It's really ONE dream and ONE dreamer only.

Sister,
whether khanda amrit was given to women during 1699 or recently ..... is something which creates confusion to some, or irritation to others.

The thing is, society in general has done a lot of unjustices to women ...... when the Truth is women are bodily genders fashioned so by Nature, but there is another truth also, the jeevas, the atmas, in them are of the same Divine nature just as in men. And this is the last reality.

Whether in men or women, the souls in them are trapped as prisoners, and the fact is there is another Amrit placed by Akal Purukh within us, and given to each one of us in equal measure.

The thing is, each one of us has to drink of that Amrit, in order to free ourselves from Maya and merge in Him.

For that purpose, following are some words of Dhan Guru Ram Das Maharaj in Raag Kalyan, which if followed we can fulfil the purpose of our lives:

Har Har naam amrit ras meethaa gurmat sehjay peejai.
The Name of the Lord, Har, Har, is Ambrosial Nectar, the most Sweet and Sublime Essence; through the Guru's Teachings, drink it in with intuitive ease.
na-o darvaaj navay dar feekay ras amrit dasvay chu-eejai.
There are nine doors, but the taste of these nine doors is bland and insipid. The Essence of Ambrosial Nectar trickles down through the Tenth Door.

He says, the Ambrosial nectar is already within you, just get above the nine portals through His Simran, where one is connected and surrounded by Maya, and enter the tenth door, there where that Nectar is available at all times.
Whosoever wadbaghee jeeva reaches there, be it man or woman, can surely savour it and become pure paviter, free from all ego/mind/maya ....which are the cause of our bondages in the mayavee creation.

Sat Sree Akal.

Except that Chaupa Singh was of Brahmin background...

In his rhetnama as I have showed also says for women to view their husbands as God and also fast for them. That is the top of her religious duty according to him.

Not only is this anti gurmat when we look to SGGSJ for support, but both those statements are almost word for word from Hindu scriptures. That can't be mere coincidence. There are other clues in his rhetnama as well... For example he instructs to awaken and salute the sun with Namaste, and then Fateh to the singhs. First of all, Sikhs awaken before dawn, and second Sikhs do not 'salute' the sun with Namaste. This is not hatred... I do not hate Hindus. I was merely stating the obvious, that Chaupa Singhs rhetnama contains very Hindu ideology especially his views of women.

The reason I get wound up is because it seems like everyone on here actively look for reasons to support restricting Bibian instead of looking for evidence to support equal inclusion. For example, absence of proof is NOT proof of absence but everyone jumps automatically to that conclusion which shows where their thinking is, even if it's subconscious. If they were truly supportive of Sikh women then they would instead go looking for proof that they WERE treated equally and given the same opportunities, rather than ACTIVELY looking for any shred of proof to exclude them.

Proof of this was in your statement of 'we should ask why women would have been excluded' instead of suggesting that we should dig deeper to find proof that they WERE included (in Gurbani, in history sources outside of Sikh like the Mughal spy I posted above who was present on that first day and gave an eye witness account) instead you chose to think it more likely that women were excluded and that we should just accept it and ask why. This is because everyone on here so far chose to dig for proof that women were excluded (all of which has been circumstantial) rather than actually looking for any proof (which does exist) that they were treated equally.

Myself, during Simran, I have experienced what I can only describe as an internal primal sound. But it's not the sound itself that is the crux of the experience... it's the realization that ALL is vibration / frequency. From light, heat, radiation, magnetism, energy, radio, microwave, colur, even matter itself at the subatomic level manifest from vibration at different frequencies. The realization too, that you are not your physical body, but pure frequency...but even more, that there is only ONE awareness... that primal sound, the universe, that awareness, Creator, creation and you are ONE in the same. It's profound... and that is the very best I can seem to do with human words...

Anyway, this very in-depth abstract about it was posted on another site and I thought I would share:

ChzS1ngh Ji, WJKK WJKF,

You always amaze me. You and I think absolutely alike with regards to reality, our existence and our true identity!


SGGSJ Ang 60

ਸੋਹੰ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥
Sohaʼn āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai sabaḏ bẖeḏ paṯī▫ā▫e. One who recognizes within himself that, "He is me", and who is pierced through by the Shabad, is satisfied. ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਕਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇ ॥੯॥ Gurmukẖ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai avar kė kare karā▫e. ||9|| When one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his own self, what more is there left to do or have done? ||9||

In Raag Sorath, Third Patshahee, tells us something to be taken into consideration, of our true nature as souls and the one of a True Guru.

He says:
so guroo so sikh hai bhaa-ee jis jotee jot milaa-ay.
He alone is the Guru, and he alone is a Sikh, O Siblings of Destiny, whose light merges in the Light.

He says, our soul, or the True Guru, are nothing but Light, and as such, in the end merge in the eternal Light of wahiguru Akal Purukh.

So if the primal Light has no genders or colors, what genders or colors of caste, religion, natinality, race have the souls as such?

If the mighty Ocean, Satnam Samundar, has no caste or creed, what race, color, caste, creed or gender does the "mamulee" soul drops can have?

Our bodies are just coverings, with particular attributes, which are material are physicall, related to the those coverings, not the soul.

The soul is a naked ray of Light, with coverings in this creation, such as the three bodies, the mind and karmas .... but the soul as seen in essence, is nothing, but a spark of the Akhand Jot of Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

The job of the True Guru, is nothing, but to reunite our souls with that Primal Light of Satnam, through the Shabad. In that sense, that power of Wahiguru works as a guide, as a Guru, as a dispeller of darkness of our manmukhta, who leads us to Wahiguru Himself.


We have seen throughout the history, many men and women as kings, queens, poes, priests, priestessses, presidents of states or any other political or social order, which raech there by their own efforts, or by fighting for it, or even by recomendations, elections, by the people ....

But that True Guru, of whom the Bani talks about, is sent by Wahiguru Himself. He is no self/ man made guru.

These are fake, or better said uncomplete ....

Through Gurbani, Gurmat, we learn to overcome all our spiritual deficencies, thus we become more mature and broad minded, by seeing things in their true measure.

So let us not look at the coverings of the Guru, but the Light of Wahiguru shinning in them, irrespective of their genders.

By trying to look or find anything else apart from this in them, we miss , we deprive ourselves, of the chance of having full darshan of Wahiguru.

Sat Sree Akal.

maybe i am getting confused here...

but surely gurbani explains this clearly....

there is 'only' God...nothing else....
only god takes form, then leaves form...he comes as a tree, a person, an animal, an insect...as the fisherman...and the fish...as the air, as the fire...all is him...
he creates his creation and then enjoys it...

it is only our ego sense which makes us think He is something seperate...that I am Me, and God is He...two seperate entities...but it is all an illusion...in this age of kalyug the sense of Ego is HUGE...where these bubbles of God consciousness question walking through endless life cycles have completely forgotton their true selves (God) and now question the existence of God...through ignorance...so now we hate each other, fight each other, back stab each other...want more money than the other...etc etc etc

through Simran we can reduce the ego sense...and as that reduces...God Blossoms forth. It was 'and is' always God that was here all along, Simran(remembering) awakens us to our true reality...god consciousness...that all is Him...that we may see what the Guru Ji's saw....God and nothing but God...and then maybe we can return to loving one another (god), helping one another (God) not competing with one another (God)..etc etc

It is not just a saying when we say 'See god in all' ... one day we will literally 'See god in all'

what an amazing creation...we cannot even fathom it...our Ego will not allow us to...only hearing his Shabad can pull our attention from being ignorant, back to seeing Him.

Well it seems there is discussion into whether Guru Nanak Dev ji was God himself....
if there is discussion about it then people are wondering if he was or wasn't

Only God exists...Gurbani is very clear about it...therefore Guru Nanak Dev ji was....
therefore We all are...therefore everything is...

only our Ego gives us a feeling of being seperate...Ego is amazing in that it allows the experience of the 'many' and allows us to have so many experiences as a seperate entity (illusion)...but problem is in this age Ego is stronger than the knowledge of 'God is the only entity' ... therefore majority of people question Gods existance...and run around aimlessly..

Ego has us fooled and Ego makes us forget of who we really are (God...all of us, and everything, and everything beyond...unlimited)

therefore the Question of 'Was Guru Nanak God himself' is mute...He Was...because Ego was at a complete minimum and connection from the Ego (individual state) to the supreme state was 100% formed. We all have that capability...and thats what Simran is For..Simran - remembering...

Just my thoughts about what Gurbani states...nothing more..

Exactly! Their gender did not matter. By trying to say that they were male because..... or they couldn't possibly ever be female because.... we are missing the point. Their gender was inconsequential. Soul is genderless! The light within them is genderless!

The constant discussion here on this thread, was, if a woman can be a Guru?

Through the aid of the Bani, let us see, what Guru Jee has to tell us, in this case we are taking the pure paviter Bani of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sachay Patshah Amar Das Maharaj, from Raag Maaroo ang 1068:

First of all He clearly tells us about how to make possible our union with the Almighty Wahiguru Akal Purukh:
ਨਾਨਕੁ ਏਕ ਕਹੈ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਨਾਮੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ
Naanak Eaek Kehai Baenanthee Naamae Naam Samaaeiaa
नानकु एक कहै बेनंती नामे नामि समाइआ
Nanak offers this one prayer: through the Naam, the Name of the Lord, may I merge in the Lord.

In this upper line, we can clearly see, that He is pointing us the way to merge our souls in that Infinite Ocean, namely Wahiguru;
He says, that throuh Naam only, can one make taht union possible.
Let us not look what is being done around us, or what the world is doing or has been doing until now. The world is governed by maya, by koor, so naturally the world is blind and going astray.

But in our case, we have to look at ourselves, as per how much we are putting Gurmat in our lives.

You see, no matter however we may not like to listen or see the Truths in the Bani, but then 500 years back; or infinte cycles of yugas one after the other, the message of the Gurmukhs, or Guru Sahibans, will always be the same.

Wahiguru is one, the way to reach Him has to be one, and this way, howsoever we maybe placed at different places or countries, but, this one path, Wahiguru has kept it within each one of us as same, to reach Him succesfully.

This path is designed by He Himself, is not man made

For Him we are souls, not different nationaliteis, nor genders, colors or classes. So it is our soul, (not our body) which has to elevate within and reach Him.


Man has created rituals, diversty of religions, pilgrimages, and an endless outer activities, which draws our attention only outwards, thus taking us awy from our objective: Wahiguru.

His wisdom surpasses all excelence. So if we really want to find and meet Him, we have to follow His instructions impilcitly.

It is only through His Naam bhakti, which withdraws our attention from maya, and focus on Him, thus we get attracted, we get pulled towards Him. It is He Himself, who pulls us through His Naam, and also merges our soul consciousness in Him, as seen in the words of Sachay Patshah Amar Das Maharaj.

So, if anything to be said, Gurmat or Sikhee, is path which revolves around Naam, or Shabad, which is the only Truth, everything else manmat, is paraphernalia, or call it illusion....



Then the second point to be kept in mind, in this Bani of Guru Amar Das Maharaj in the following line:

ਪੂਰੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਹਾਈ
Poorai Sabadh Bhagath Suhaaee
पूरै सबदि भगति सुहाई
Sublime and exalted is devotion to the Perfect Word of the Shabad.

Here He is telling us, that the bhakti of Naam, is the highest and the most perfect, thus the only valuable and profitable for us, any other practices, will be the reason of our constant coming and going in the cycle of 84.

The words of Guru Sahibans, are not to scare anybody, but to just make us aware of our spiritual nature, and to guide us back to Wahiguru, without any failure. This is His guarantee.


Many of us complain, that inspite of being religious minded in our own way, we do not get that bliss, that satisfaction, that taste of peace and tranquility, neither is our faith stable and firm ....

The answer to these our weaknesses, Guru Jee in the line below, says, that only by Naam Simran of Naam Bhakti, one mind gets defeated, then the soul is freed from its grip, and flies higher and higher in the planes of purity and true bliss, thus the soul gets strongly attracted like iron to magnet, and then the nearer it goes, the stronger the pull... until it finally gets joined to Him, there is no other way, nor shortcut.

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਸਚੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਰਾਤਾ ਸਚੇ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ
Man Than Sachee Bhagathee Raathaa Sachae Sio Chith Laaeiaa
मनु तनु सची भगती राता सचे सिउ चितु लाइआ
One whose mind and body are imbued with true devotion, focuses his consciousness on the True Lord.


Going still one step further, Sachay Sahib Amar Das, reveals us the secret, for our union with Him in the line below.
He says, it is only through Shabad practice or Naam Simran, that one cuts and burns off all karmas, thus one is liberated for once and forever. And then when one is liberated, one does not stay even for a second in the mayavee creation, but gets pulled by the power of that very Shabad up to Sach Khand....there is no other such power to accomplish this task of our union with Him.

ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ਸਬਦਿ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ
Aavan Jaanaa Sabadh Nivaarae
आवण जाणा सबदि निवारे
Through the Shabad, one's comings and goings in reincarnation are ended.


Then in this next line, He says, those who perform true devotion to merge in Him, get their objective, by loving the sweet Shabad, means, by being absorbed in His Simran in meditation

ਸਚੇ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਪਿਆਰਾ
Sachae Saevehi Sabadh Piaaraa
सचे सेवहि सबदि पिआरा
The true ones serve Him, through the Beloved Word of the Shabad.


ਸਹਜੇ ਗੁਣ ਰਵਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ
Sehajae Gun Ravehi Dhin Raathee Jothee Joth Milaaeiaa
सहजे गुण रवहि दिनु राती जोती जोति मिलाइआ
One who intuitively chants God's Glorious Praises day and night - his light merges into the Light.


In this upper line, Sachay Patshah Amar Das, reveals us our true nature as well as of Him and His Bhagats or Guru Sahibans.

He says, when we meditate on Naam, through its Simran constantly and regularly, we become inmaculate, then we as souls, our light, like that of a sun ray, which one day emerged from the Sun, merges back in the Infinte Sun: Satpurukh.

So, just as Light has no gender, and its purpose is to shine and give Light to dispel darkness, in a similar way, when Wahiguru comes and establishes Himself as a Guru or Guide, it is that Supraconscuois Light full of love, mercy, grace, wisdom ....which projects itself on us through that Guru in that particular body, which otherwise as we know, physical man/woman, is combination of matter and mind, thus totally ignorant or spiritually blind.

But only when Wahiguru comes and manifests Himself for a particular time in a particular body, for our spiritual uplift, that being is called Guru, that also, not per our wishes, but by His Hukum, His Mauj.

Then when it fulfills its purpose, as seen in the words of Amar Das Maharaj, any ray(soul), any Light(Gurmukhs), having emerged from Wahiguru Akal Purukh, return there to their origin, and merge in Him.

It is we manmukhs who constantly create controversies and disputes, because we put our minds above everything, but the teachings of Guru Sahibans are very clear.

So if we ever want to grow and become spiritually wise, we just have to follow Gurmat, which is not difficult at all, but very easy, and very simple, as simple as :

Jin Har japeeya, se Har hoeeya.

Sat Sree AAkal.

I think the topic is going off track.

We are more on issues of men and women, rather than, what a Guru means. We think we elect gurus as in political elections for a particular period of time.

The true Guru is Shabad, the True Guru is Brahmgyani, the True Guru is Gurumukh, the True Guru is the Lord Himself.

And just as Wahiguru has no gender, it is His power, His level of Consciousness which works in that particular body.

It is like a battery, which works the same in a doll, as in the soldier. It is the energy of that battery which makes them work, not the otherwise, that the toys work better, as per how they were designed or the roles to play.

In a siimilar way, the physical body of a woman or the man is not the Guru, which by the way is the topic of this thread. The Guru is not perisahble, the bodies of men or women, are just a handful of dust .... So, as said, Guru, is a power, which can work out His duties at the best, in any conditions, He has no such limits, though limited in disguise, as He is in a physical body which is just a covering

The True Guru, works on the inner planes, to guide the souls back to their True Home, Sach Khand .

Outwardly He only inspires us, to love Him, by doing the real bhakti.

Last, but not the least, it is Wahiguru´s choice, it is His mauj, He can do what He feels like. As said, if He wanted, what to say about human beings, He can make even the stones carry out His Hukum...

So brothers and sisters, sangat, let us not argue on the mayavee coverings(bodies, genders), but pay attention, to what He says to us through those wadbhagee Gurmukhs(irrespective of genders).


To argue about genders of the True gurus, is to question Wahiguru Himself.

Is that not shameful? Our manmukhta, has no limits .....

As long as the creation exists, either men or women, both shall continue to be imperfect beings, only by doing the real bhakti and elevating our consciousness to His level, shall we become perfect, then there shall be no arguments, that men this, or women that, because then, only He will exist.

Sat Sree Akal.

ragnarok is correct. Their gender did not matter. Souls are neither female or male in the physical sense. However all of us are seen as 'soul brides'. It was likely coincidence that they were all male, however there was a positive benefit for women, with them being male.

Think about it:

Who would have more impact? A slave claiming that they should be free and treated as equals, or their master claiming this? The message of women being equal, needed to come from men in order to have the impact. Women could have demanded to be seen as equal all they wanted but would never have been taken seriously. So the message had to come from men. It had to be men that admitted openly that women were their equals in order for it to mean anything.

You are thinking in terms of physical. Remember there is only ONE. Physical is an illusion. And all souls are equal.

You sound like you are stating that males are superior to females and women should just be treated 'fairly' but not receive equal status or opportunity.

Of course everything physically is different. Even one man from another... but would you ever consider that any male is superior to another because of their differences? Difference does not mean inequality!! Equality means no perceived higher STATUS over others. ALL humans are equal in status and equal in worth and should have equal opportunity.

If I misunderstood you, I apologize That's how it reads though...

ragnarok is correct. Their gender did not matter. Souls are neither female or male in the physical sense. However all of us are seen as 'soul brides'. It was likely coincidence that they were all male, however there was a positive benefit for women, with them being male.

Think about it:

Who would have more impact? A slave claiming that they should be free and treated as equals, or their master claiming this? The message of women being equal, needed to come from men in order to have the impact. Women could have demanded to be seen as equal all they wanted but would never have been taken seriously. So the message had to come from men. It had to be men that admitted openly that women were their equals in order for it to mean anything.

ragnarok is correct. Their gender did not matter. Souls are neither female or male in the physical sense. However all of us are seen as 'soul brides'. It was likely coincidence that they were all male, however there was a positive benefit for women, with them being male.

Think about it:

Who would have more impact? A slave claiming that they should be free and treated as equals, or their master claiming this? The message of women being equal, needed to come from men in order to have the impact. Women could have demanded to be seen as equal all they wanted but would never have been taken seriously. So the message had to come from men. It had to be men that admitted openly that women were their equals in order for it to mean anything.

There is no gender for the Guru. Guru is neither man or woman, people who see only the body of the Guru do not see the Guru.

I plan on wearing a white dastar with the blue suit above, and getting him to wear a blue dastar with white. That way we will match and be kind of opposites

Due to the fact that I actively fought for Sikh women to be able to tie dastar in uniform in the Canadian military, and I consequently became the first woman to do so in the Royal Canadian Navy, my sangat has given me siropa last weekend. My story had actually made it around the world on many websites, but also in print in several Indian newspapers, including the Times of India. I had no idea that my sangat were doing this, until it happened! I was so overwhelmed and filled with surprise and emotion that I was actually in tears when they gave it to me.

Now, I am wondering what to do with the actual cloth? I read that some use them as a keski, but the material s really stiff and thick so I don't think it would work well. Right now I have it with my nitnem gutka. I don't want to inadvertently do anything disrespectful with it... so for now I wrapped my gutka in it and keeping it with my other religious things. So what should I do with it??

I attached the Times Of India story...

p.s. in case you are wondering why the different name, Satkirin is just the alias I have been using for some time on forums. When I took a Sikh name, H was the letter and so I am legally 'Harkiran' Wanda Kaur. (Just in case anyone had questions why the name was different on there from my alias)

Due to the fact that I actively fought for Sikh women to be able to tie dastar in uniform in the Canadian military, and I consequently became the first woman to do so in the Royal Canadian Navy, my sangat has given me siropa last weekend. My story had actually made it around the world on many websites, but also in print in several Indian newspapers, including the Times of India. I had no idea that my sangat were doing this, until it happened! I was so overwhelmed and filled with surprise and emotion that I was actually in tears when they gave it to me.

Now, I am wondering what to do with the actual cloth? I read that some use them as a keski, but the material s really stiff and thick so I don't think it would work well. Right now I have it with my nitnem gutka. I don't want to inadvertently do anything disrespectful with it... so for now I wrapped my gutka in it and keeping it with my other religious things. So what should I do with it??

I attached the Times Of India story...

p.s. in case you are wondering why the different name, Satkirin is just the alias I have been using for some time on forums. When I took a Sikh name, H was the letter and so I am legally 'Harkiran' Wanda Kaur. (Just in case anyone had questions why the name was different on there from my alias)

Due to the fact that I actively fought for Sikh women to be able to tie dastar in uniform in the Canadian military, and I consequently became the first woman to do so in the Royal Canadian Navy, my sangat has given me siropa last weekend. My story had actually made it around the world on many websites, but also in print in several Indian newspapers, including the Times of India. I had no idea that my sangat were doing this, until it happened! I was so overwhelmed and filled with surprise and emotion that I was actually in tears when they gave it to me.

Now, I am wondering what to do with the actual cloth? I read that some use them as a keski, but the material s really stiff and thick so I don't think it would work well. Right now I have it with my nitnem gutka. I don't want to inadvertently do anything disrespectful with it... so for now I wrapped my gutka in it and keeping it with my other religious things. So what should I do with it??

I attached the Times Of India story...

p.s. in case you are wondering why the different name, Satkirin is just the alias I have been using for some time on forums. When I took a Sikh name, H was the letter and so I am legally 'Harkiran' Wanda Kaur. (Just in case anyone had questions why the name was different on there from my alias)