Malwe Da Sher

tSingh please stop with your false propoganda and blasphemous lies... everything good that has ever happened in the Panth is attributed to the efforts of Bhai Randheer Singh. Anyone who suggests otherwise will go to hell; for a 100% super duper accurate description of hell please see the works of Bhai Rama Singh.

I find it comical.

Brahmgiani Akali Nihang Baba Mit Singh Ji

Speaking of Akali Kaur Singh, has anyone read the 'discussion' between Bhai Randheer Singh and Akali Kaur Singh Nihang thats been posted on Tapoban website in the articles section? - lol

No I dont think everyone can be expected to read them, thats not the issue. The issue is about 'Sikh Scholars' - who surely should have sound knowledge of our literature. The majority of so called 'Sikh Schoars' take it for granted that what is written in most texts is false. This has lead to majority of Sikhs following in the teachings of their scholars/leader (reformist seems a better word) and rejecting the vedas and the upanishads and other ancient sources of knowledge - making way for the 'Sikhism is a brand new religion unrelated to anything before' theory.

theres a few spelling mistakes that might be worthwhile correcting if you want to PM to take it remotely seriously.

Going back to the first post, in my opinion viewpoint number 2 and number 4 can co-exist.

Great information as always, thanks.

Cheers yaar

Its not that bad at all lol.

does anyone know how old the frescos are at the baba atal rai gurdwara?

sorry yaar I meant they dont occur one a year. Theres usually a couple of jorh melay a month, held by various dals. Theres usually atlaest 1 major jorh mela per month. Jorh Melay are held to commemorate a specific festival i.e. Gurpurb, Auspicous day or Barsi of Mahapursh. Akhand Paths are held and kathavachik, keertanis and dhadhis etc are invited. As there is going to be a large gathering stall owners sweet makers and all other 'whealer dealer types' come and create a festive atmosphere. The purpose of the Jorh Mela is in the name - for sangata to meet and come together. At any jorh mela whatever dals are present bring their respected nishans (battle standards) and unite as one. I'm not sure how its related to Nagar Keertan, perhaps your thinking of 'Mohalla' which is often done at the end of some jorh melay. The mohalla is pretty similar to an informal military procession.

Yep! Sounds about right!

Neo Jorh Melay dont occur once a month.

Niranjana Bhai thank you for highlighting a mistake that I was making, I should have been more clear. While the Rehras Sahib as you have mentioned has evolved during the time of the Sikh Gurus, my marker was placed after Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, as you have correctly mentioned the Rehras Sahib has evolved somewhat after the times of the Gurus. The discussion here is primarily about the reduction of Choupai Sahib from the Rehras. As you have highlighted the sampradava themselves differ; however crucially the Rehras found in the Gutkay they print all include 'Pun Racchas Ka Kata Seesa' and 'Kirpa Karree Hum Pur Jug Mata' - The "Arril" atleast indicates a new stanza so I can understand ( but not agree with) the arguement that it is a reference to the prayer and not the prayer per se and therefore not necessary for it to be read. If you are using this arguement for 'kirpa karree' then in alot of Dasam Bani it implies it is not necessary to read the begining or end of the bani. Its not the most fruitful discussion and there probably is a lot of political motivation behind it . Yet, as I have said it doesn't mean we should ignore who took out the two verses mentioned at the top of the page from Choupai Sahib in the Rehras in the 1900s. This will give us good insight into why. And how they replaced this lets us know just how desperate they were. Hence, this change in Rehras Sahib, unlikes others, appears to have malice motivations and perverted intentions.

Narinjana I have no great problem with the Rehat Maryada of the 1930s setting 'minimum standards' However, there are a few issues which you appear to be overloooking: - History suggests that only 6 paureea have been in Rehras Sahib since begining. I havent come across any old gutkay where Rehras Sahib has full anand sahib, this is not an area of debate but rather of personal choice. On the contrary, history suggests that Choupai Sahib in Rehras never stopped before 'kirpa kari hum bur jug mata*'. Unless I have missed a collection of puratan gutkay which have rehras sahib with shortened choupai sahib. - By who? Why? and how the Choupai Sahib was shortened is what the sampradavas have a problem with. Agreed that this may have become a wider political issue; however, that does not mean one should ignore the truth of the matter. The discussion in not about whether or not it is acceptable to read portions of bania - as you have mentioned that would be fruitless. * The same arguement does not apply here (same as arril) and to suggest it does is nothing short of ridiculous, a fundamental error which I would not expect from a man of your knowledge intellect.

double post

For the sake of discussion, lets agree on the above regarding Arril... but what then about the other pauris from Choupai Sahib which have been taken out?

Fantastic idea - lets turn this into a discussion on Baba Banda Bahadur !!! Interestingly the Bandai Khalsa whos lineage is still going gets akhand paths done at the Budha Dal chaunee at rakbha - the Bandai Khalsa recognising superiority of Tat Khalsa (Budha Dal) and they also pay some sort of an allegiance to Baba Joginder Singh. They have also presented the Gurdwara with pictures etc of Baba Banda Bahadur. I think they get an akhand path done every year there.

Do these people actually have any academic training?

Witnessing a Budha Dal amrit sanchar I can say that caste is asked but incidently jatts got amrit last. I have heard about seperate langar but havent witnessed it myself, perhaps anyone who has can elaborate. There are many Mazbhis with farlas - did they all get beaten up? As Jussa said, the practises do not necessarily lead to anamosity or tension between Singhs of different castes. Although I think you are over exaggerating the issue, I have said that there is some caste discrimination in the dal which has been present over the years and Baba Joginder Singh has been trying to tackle it - what else do you want to be said on this issue? Narinjana Bhai perhaps you could enlighten us to the caste discrimination you have witnessed. Would perhaps be an idea for admin to split and create a new topic.

You should go back, the Gurdwara Sahib has been rebuilt - just recently finished, there are two divan halls now. Baba Joginder Singh also got the thurra sahib preserved where Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji sat. Its been locked due to bibia going in and pinching bits some of the bricks that have been there since maharajs time, but you can get the key and go inside. Strangely theres a cold breeze in the small room and so it remains very cool even in the middle of summer. Amongst the locals the most the Gurdwara is probably most loved for the lassi they serve - and no jatts do not keep the lassi for themself before anyone suggests they do. A lot of Singhs from 'Mazbhi' caste stay at Rakba due to the equal treatment they are given. As for your mate proactive.... yeah I thought you might.

My friend while you were at Rakba Jathedar was Baba Lehna Singh who was a Takhan by birth and was the Gurdev of Baba Joginder Singh. Baba Lehna Singh was very hutthi tuppi mahapursh, it is said he knew of all Sri Guru Granth Sahib Kanth. People have tried to imply Baba Joginder Singh is of the 'pro-jatt' group. This of course is a basless accusation as his highly revered ustad Akali Nihang Baba Lehna Singh was a tarkhan, and also Baba Joginder Singh has been the only Jathedar 'proactively' (wink wink) seeking to rid the Budha Dal of caste discrimination. There has never been any caste discrimination at Rakbha and nor is there any at most Budha Dal Chaunees, perhaps others would be so kind as to tell me where they have seen discrimination being practised.

Caste discrimination does occur but I myself have not witnessed it in the langar, perhaps Narinjana Bhai you could tell us of your experiences? Tony you sound very familiar to someones posts that I have read on Sikh Sangat called 'Proactive'. The first paragraph of your post actually has some very good points. The second is a bit of airy fairy hopeful assumptions and the third is not worthy of being credited with any other response than: 'lol you really have a problem with Nihang Singhs dont you?' You would think if people were so against caste discrimination they would support the one Singh in Budha Dal thats been going against it for years - Baba Joginder Singh.

hmmmm... interesting. One for the scholars.