Mekhane'ch Jannat

I think we must be careful in the terminology we use by using terms like fight and kill psychologically they can be mis-used. Obviously naam will destroy these entities but who are you to wield the sword of naam there can only be naam partap when you are not (well the false you) "remembering simran is a choiceless awareness to fight spiritually is just bakwaas. elaborate please" awareness of being aware is nirvikalp simran which is what i mean by choiceless awareness. You see a mousepad in front of you if you are aware of the mousepad you are doing simran of the mousepad, take away the mousepad and there is just awareness of being aware. If a person can expand this state more and more every day negative entities will not bother him. To fight spiritually is bakwaas because even by acknowledging negative entities you make them stronger an individual should neither accept or reject

the above is the worst thing you can do. When talking spiritually you should always remember kalah instead of bala. Subtlety instead of strength. attacking nightmares makes them grow, you are feeding the negativity of them. the only way to fight through non action, just by watching these entities, watching them with the feeling that waheguru is with you, will cause their influence to diminish remembering simran is a choiceless awareness to fight spiritually is just bakwaas.

I have the same issue with the above position, however is this not too far from what you imply by suggesting that "the only true free will in existence is that of Vaheguru", hence freewill from the human perspective freewill appears to exist in the mind ("we have decision making ability"), however physical processes are pre-determined ("but our freedom to think, decide and act all operate under his supreme command"). -- ---------------- the decision making ability you speak of i would group within physical processes, this 'freewill' is a physical process akin to gravity. Its is not an illusion, but an unknowing or ignorance. The reality of the decision making process cannot be denied, it follows rules like gravity, the knowledge of these rules is liberation from their effects. i would rather speak of ignorance instead of saying an 'appearence of freewill' it may be anal but it avoids associations of the world illusion etc.

1) no: a determinist position in which freedom is an illusion and human will is predetermined? This statement would be in keeping with gurbani, the other statements are true but on lower 'levels' which i will attempt to explain below. The statement above must be only true for an individual when he is perfected or partly perfected. Free will if to be made sense of must be viewed from different levels. From our level this statement is false as we feel as though we act. Free will can be envisioned as a continuum with the above statement at the top and at the bottom the idea that I am the doer of everything i.e. the illusion that the I posseses free will. So it is also a continuum of falseness to truth. But any point on the continuum will be 'true' for the individual so situated. True in the sense that, he does or he does not do. So an individual higher up the continuum will begin to understand he does less and things just 'happen'. The ideas that humans posses free will or possess it to an extent, can be viewed as stages of ignorance. The aim for a potential gurmukh must be to live in gods will, a will which is THE complete will. The stages of ignorance leading upto THE will are smaller or lesser wills. Only true free will is at the level of god, whereas varying degrees of will are available at lower levels. Working your way up involves hard efforts, to gain self knowledge, of how to live in hukam, and a certain amount of free will is available to make these efforts. This free will is limited, it is partial will, which is akin to sitting in a dark room, when the door is open a little bit a shaft of light enters the room this is the bakshish of some of the creators light/will to work with, eventually the whole room will be light when the door is fully open and you stop bumping into things. This view negates the negative or demonic view that chalo its all his hukam what can I do. As regards the word predetermined. Will is not in a sense pre-determined, in that no change is possible. To examine this, action is determined by the jeev, who acts within hukam, i.e. the law of cause and effect. His actions cause results, which are pre-determined by nature, therefore if the jeev carries on thinking in the same pattern his future becomes determined. I am sure many of you know from practical experience how elders are 'set in their ways' in other words they have no free will as they will continue to act in the same way as change mentally is painful. From this base point let us speculate a shaft of light of some free will enters you in the form of being intiated into naam simran and living to the precepts. The individual breaks some of his previous habits and bad tendencies by naam simran which is some of the creators free will. As the individual is moving up vertically due to naam simran he is acting with some free will. But this free will is not complete until he reaches the param pad. I equate free will with 'knowledge of free will' partial free will equates with partial knowledge. True knowledge embodies the known. To know free will is to live in perfect balance with hukam. Only ignorance, as pre stated, is opposition to hukam, ironically the highest level of ignorance must be asserted by those who say free will exists, (they must possess the lowest amount of free will :cry: )

It means when the soul or psyche (krishna) tries to provoke anger to 'others' or sense objects, by provoking them i.e. taking their clothes away, which allegorically means all, unappropriate for the time, beliefs and dogmas people hold dear. Or if you like false idols. It is a timeless motif the answer can only be answered by krishna when approached with the correct 'offerings' of knowledge and gurbani. But be careful only Krishna has the power to play with the gopi's, if you do not know krishna, the gopi's will laugh and ridicule you and make you feel stupid.

how can the astral body not be related to the state of the mind, that is absolutely absurd.

i disagree the astral body must be constructed through sadhana, dreaming is part of the physical body, thoughts are material things. Sowing seeds in barren field is a metaphor for individuals who read gurbani but do not put in the effort required to build a soul as it were. These individuals are soul-less i.e. they are barren.

A question, is man born with an astral body or is this body only gained through sadhana? ਪੰਨਾ 419, ਸਤਰ 10 ਕਲਰਿ ਖੇਤੀ ਬੀਜੀਐ ਕਿਉ ਲਾਹਾ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ another q how can a barren field contain an astral body?

how can sikhs living in the west earn an honest living, when everything is built upon the rape and plunder of the economically less developed. Even doing an hard days honest work becomes tainted because most of the corporations people work 'honestly' for make money through dishonest means. you cannot do an honest days work in the modern world unless you are ignorant and naieve. selling cigarettes is a minor sin, compared to let us say working for a slaveowner. Taking a wage from a multinational company that destroys the environment abuses human rights etc, is much worse than selling tobacco. Is tobacco going to affect an individual who lives in the city where the smog ruins his lungs anyway? During the times of our gurus was there as much pollution as there is now? What about selling somasa that are dripping with oil to people, this must affect their health adversly. was there junk food in punjab in the 1600's if there was then the guru's would surely have opposed this type of food, so selling junk food is as much of a sin as selling ciggies.

I think there is a book by a scientist called the spirit particle or gene. The bloke has apparently found a chemical that is responsible for 'mystic states' or states of ecstacy. This chemical is released also at the time of death. I will try to find the exact reference if i have time. But death is actually a time when the body is in the grip of ecstasy. It is only the fear created in the animal prior to death which is immoral. There seems to be an unspoken conensus that death is bad. The environment the animal is kept in and the atmosphere it is surrounded by and the love or hate it is fed upon, are more important than the actual act of slaughter. Gurbani repeatedly stresses the priority of intention over act, the act becomes good or bad by the intention behind it, but real intention is rare most is manufactured.

I suggest that you convert to Islam, they have hard and fast rules. People who have no desire to progress onto higher dharams can follow these rules and lead a productive life. Khalsa means "land of the emperor that cannot be taxed" In other words this land is free. Freedom from external pressures. A man who is Khalsa is free from external pressures, he is totally detached from the false world. PLeasure pain etc. In other words he is master of himself. If a Khalsa can control and knows every aspect of his being, how can he do wrong? Nobody does wrong consciously only unconsciously under the ignorance of anger or whatever. A Khalsa knows his anger his hate his love he is intimate with these parts of him and he is not subversient to them, he cannot be affected by any external pressures, the emperor cannot tax or extract anything from him because he is the master of himself Now tell me would a khalsa do any of the things you have mentioned? Taking amrit and formally entering the brotherhood is a symbol, it is the lowest form of reality. This symbol aides a man to master himself and know god - know thyself etc. I know this answer is not welcome as your question is obviously directed towards externality. But herein lies the problem Sikhi has very little to do with externalities. The Khalsa are an esoteric brotherhood, this is obvious from Gurbani, where all external rituals are internalised. External appearence and conduct is not of the highest importance to a khalsa all that is important is self-mastery or the journey towards god. Now the symbols of the Khalsa the panj kakkar etc are indispensible on this journey as they aide rememberance they are symbols of an inner state, or they must bring about an internal state. The internal state is its own dharam, on the journey towards God, you must do right otherwise you will fall by the wayside. Distance from god is its own punishment. A man who works on himself, is himself punished by himself for wrong actions. Following rules is only for people who do not work on themselves. The look of the Khalsa is secondary, as said before it is only an aide to simran. Only in so much as, the marks of a khalsa help him remember his mission on Earth, are they at all worth having. Otherwise they serve no purpose

This is a generalisation, the followers of the esoteric aspects of western faiths are not known to Proselytise, as this would be against the 'work' I urge more sikhs living in the western world to understand the western esoteric tradition, a good place to start is alchemy, here is a link to the emerald tablets of hermes trismesteges http://www.alchemywebsite.com/rawn_cla.html All truly esoteric traditions stress unity east and west, unfortunately a commodity has been made out of esotericism, yanking it into the domain of the profane, exoterising the esoteric. The post above from xylitol raises an important point. Is religious experience subjective i.e. dependent on surroundings similar to dreams. This has proven to be a strange particularity of the western psyche, to reduce everything to the unconscious like Jung. Certain Religious phenomena from my personal experience cannot be reducible to the unconscious subjective world dependant on surroundings and society, there is an OBJECTIVE religious world where perfected beings the sants aka jesus krishna shams tabriz guru Gobind Singh are still alive on a different much higher plane of existence. They are higher intelligences some call them muni's and rishis others angels and archangels cherubim and seraphim. The point is beings such as Baba Nanak and Jesus personify higher intellects or guiding intellects. To compare them serves only a political and social purpose. ANd as Ramakrishna PAramhamsa said only a person who has knowledge of god can teach people "let god kill the man who presumes to show people to his door but has no knowledge of him" such people are arrogance personified the damage these people have done through history is very bad, just in order to cling to some beliefs that comfort them. Sikhi is eternal the name and form are irrelevant, those who cling to name and form limit sikhi and blaspheme in the highest sense

sorry to go off topic, but alcohol usage can be good for people of a certain constitution and bad or fatal for others. it all depends on social mental and other factors. An excessive fear of alcohol as causing spiritual degeneration is in my opinion as energy wasting as drinking. As my favourite artist aziz mian says "alcohol has no inherent properties good or bad, those whose hearts are corrupt it will bring the corruption to the surface" the world and its drugs are really like water that touches certain parts of our minds and makes things manifest in the world. If your mind is clear all drugs will be water, but if not then who knows whats lurking under the trap door

in my opinion. Simran is rememberance, remembering our essential nature. You may know that higher simran is devoid of discriminating thought a man is in his essential nature. Any brahm gyani is in higher simran. buddhist christian atheist muslim or sikh. But our lower simran is waheguru manter, for a christian it will be something else for a fakir it may be standing on one leg for 50 years this is lower simran. so theoretically pope could be a brahmgyani, and have not practised our lower simran but in higher simran he would be the same as a sikh brahmgyani

It is not helpful to say the things w/bol is saying. People must make their own decisions. I agree with xylitol, but, creating pressure in the coke bottle is relatively easy once you know how. The difficult part is retaining this shaktee, and putting it to good use. That is why conservation of sexual energy must be carried out by an individual who has knowledge of himself and a deep knowledge of gurbani, and other systems, preferably under supervision of a spiritual elder who knows better. w/bol is aimless he will create shaktee for what end? He will no doubt reply to merge with waheguru, but what does this mean this aim is wishy washy, the nuances of this concept have to be brought out in order to formulate a concrete aim which the accumulated shaktee can be utilised for. Who is waheguru? And what merges? etc etc. Knowledge is the only way to retain shakti or spiritual energy, not dead knowledge living knowledge. If an individual cultivates his shakti without knowledge he will be a stupid saint, he will have energy but won’t no what end to use it for. Anyone who is honest to themselves should ask what their aims are in spiritual life, many people do not know.

the reason illicit thoughts, as you say, enter the mind upon forgetting naam simran, is because they are still there you are not dealing with the root of the problem, because to do this it is hard and i don't blame you for being weak. And covering over difficult questions with blanket answers.

yes it is alright. denying certain desires is good others is bad you must cultivate self knowledge. A person may decide to stop this habit when he has overcome it psychologically. A premature repression of this habit can lead to worse problems. imagine shaking a big bottle of cola, it will fizz up and if strong enough it will splurge out. The same with the psyche, if the repressed sexual energy is not put into something, it will explode elsewhere.

wrong masterbation destroys your ability to gain ridh sidhian, that is why nath siddhas were celibate they wanted siddhi. real Knowlwdge cannot be destroyed by ejaculation, much worse than masterbation is fantasizing, fantasizing about women or anything, daydreaming is much more detrimental to spiritual progress than masterbating.

has no one anything else to say? shaheediyan is my explanation in accordance with your viewpoint? do people just like to just argue about stupid things on this forum rather than discuss serious things? Anyway i'm off to masterbate a little bit, may god protect me from evil spirits!

Before proceeding, maybe the definition of ego needs to be clarified. "Ego - (noun) A sense of self esteem or self importance." In the way i have been writing this would be the negative ego we have to expunge. "The true Gurmukh is the dust of the feet of all" I agree with this, but with this "and has no ego" i do not. Being the dust of the feet of all is still an attribute, it is a something. It is a vestige of ego. The gurmukh chooses this attribute from the khazana of naam to benefit humankind. I agree the naam is beyond ego and personality, but the jeevan mukt is one who has a connection with naam, he is perfected in that he can choose his ego or personality. He is a conscious actor, not involved but involved at the same time, for humanities benefit. I agree there is no difference between a gurmukh and the guru because he knows naam. But this knowledge to be communicated to us has to come through ego to reach us. The big difference is mahapurushes use ego consciously, whereas 99% of us use it unconsciously, we are asleep. This ties in with naam being every where you see because it all leads back to the khazana of naam, but we are not conscious of this. "When there is naam the person is roop of the guru and has the guru's personality" We need to clarify if ego and personality are the same thing. What is the guru's personality? |The guru is nirankar formless beyond sargun nirgun immanent and transcendent. Acquiring this personality would lead to dissolution of mind body and spirit back to its source. Whereas acquiring knowledge of this which i think of as naam means a perfected human being. Anyway you have made me think for which i am grateful, please post more thoughtful insights, anybody please.

ਪੰਨਾ 20, ਸਤਰ 12 ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਨਿਵਰੀ ਭਾਹਿ haumai is usually translated as egotism. So the gurmukh extinguishes egotism. the gurmukh who praises the name replaces the haumai or ego. So logically you are replacing one false corrupt wrong ego with a divine one an ego facing towards the guru who is nirankar. The gurmukh does not become extinguished with haumai, gurbani does not say this. Whilst singing praises of the naam haumai is finished, so when haumai is finished does the singer of praise also finish, i'd say no.

vinegar the destruction of self would result in death, if an individual has no personality he cannot live in a body. The jeev has to identify with some attributes otherwise the jeev is paramatma. This attribute is naam. Which in my understanding is not an attribute but the attribute, the secret. Haumai has to be defined carefully otherwise we are back to the physical and mental mortifications and suppressions of the yogi's. I think of it as false personality, when you must die it is not the "I" that dies but the false I. Seperating false from true means false haumai from true haumai. As the sand is sifted out and the gold particles become evident, the naam becomes more evident. The true I is at one with naam it works with gods order, it is gods name to receive naam he must bestow a title upon you a name appropriate to your individuality so naam must be different for each person who receives it.

please close this and stop the spread of ignorance whatever faith a man has that provides him with peace should not be destroyed, it is a great sin, millions of people take refuge in the name of mohammed, to insult his name is to invite a backlash of karma and to initiate a wave of hate and anger please stop it.

you talk about learning from pain, yet you start crying "ease off with the attacks i haven't done nuthin to you" like a little child. Then you add a veiled insult saying the only people who have a complex with their intellect are those who go on about it. Well i might well have who knows. i cuss only through what you write, how can you face pain when you get upset when a sado internet poster starts having a go at your internet personality "oh please stop attacking me!" no no non no no oh pagi to savour pain pain is still there it is pain. How do you make pain non-pain you are not going deep. how can mind never be associated with pain, not see pain and feel the good side of pain which goes with the bad side also (every stick has two ends) you see 2 men in paralell universes may experience the same painful experience, one holds the good end of pain and savours it and comes closer to god, the takes the bad end and becomes associated with the darkness of anger and resentment and other negativities. What i am saying is to become real where the good end and bad end are known the stick is known in its entireity, but i'll say no more you just want gratify yourself anyway, by coming on this forum you don't want to learn you just want to reinforce your personality.

Makhane'ch Jannat: why the personal attack? When you do realise who you are, you'll realise that you don't despise W-bol, just his ideas, because there is no difference between your real-self and his. I speak from experience I love you for saying this its right, but in each situation an self-educated insaan must use the best techniques for mutual self education he believes necessessary, these means may not always be pleseant, we do not live in a perfect world. If i am wrong i'll take what will come to me, live and learn!