amardeep

its basic. I've stopped eating crap food like crisps and chocolate (though had a backslash yesterday after almost two months). I eat more fruit during the day and have a big salad around  lunch time.I drink 1 large glass of protein shake everyday (two on the days I go to the gym). I am a vegetarian so i've started eating some of that soya meat also to increase protein. I only eat 2 rotis now (after reading that in this thread lol) whereas before I used to eat 3. 
I go to the gym around 3-4 times a week and try to do yoga once a week at work (for strengning the body, its not the meditative kind of yoga). I work the muscles at the gym, - I cant be bothered to run on the thread mill or bicycle as I find it extremely boring and un motivating.
 

I've lost 4 kilos in 2 months (started working out on january 1 2016). Balle balle progress happening! Very little muscle growth though.

Politically they appear to be relevant. The composition includes the ruling elites of the times into the scandalious behavioirs of the stories. Very similiar to the 10th century Arabian Nights written in Baghdad which is based on similiar content as the Charitro Pakhyan and included the ruling Abbasid Caliphate elites into the sexual stories. It was considered scandalius that the author destroyed the high aura of the Caliphs by making stories about their sexual lives. It was a way of "making them mortal" so people would'n elevate them that much. Maybe as we proceed along with further charitras we will see similiar stories about the Mughal kings?
In Rattan SIngh Bhangus account we can see that the Sikhs also elevated the Mughals to mighty warriors. When Guru asked them to rise and destroy the Mughals the Sikhs responded by saying that the Sikhs were only meek sheep so how could they rise against mighty tigers and lions (Mughals) ?. Maybe the purpose of including the Mughals and Afghans etc into the charitras was a way of showing that behind their mighty castles and forts they are just as human as everyone else?
I dont know, - just speculating here.

I've lost 4 kilos in 2 months (started working out on january 1 2016). Balle balle progress happening! Very little muscle growth though.

I've lost 4 kilos in 2 months (started working out on january 1 2016). Balle balle progress happening! Very little muscle growth though.

Have you noticed how in the charitars so far the real messages of the story have been embedded within the dialogue of the story. And not in the apparent actions of the story...
Im wondering whether these messages were embedded into the sexual content stories on purpose. So that the initial impression one gets when reading the charitro pakhyan is that it's sexual stories. Some people will most likely reject them that way... Whereas those who try to contemplate the stories will see how they talk about so so many other things instead. Like Jesus says "I speak in parabels in order to confuse the masses" and  "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13).

@Singh123456777 Sikhawareness is not a gossip portal about peoples personal life. Thats why it was removed ji.
@Ragmaala Hosting of the website is funded by Neo Singh who've been the webmaster since the forum was launched some 13 years ago. The moderators are based in Europe and America. If its under the watch of intelligence services we would'n know of it unless the intelligence services are really amateur and lame :p

Things I noticed when reading this charitar:
It's the first time we are dealing with a muslim male and female The charitar takes place in the nobility of Muslim high class - the Mughals ie rulers of the time The story takes place in Shahjahanabad (Old Delhi) The triple dissease does'nt appear to make much sense when read literally - there must be something symbolic in the three (getting exhausted from running, breathing mysteriosly when dreaming and feeling pain in the knees) The sentence "The treatment must match the dissease" could be a reference to the main story of the king punishing his son way out of proportions... In Prem Sumarag it says "The punishment must match the criminal offence". The placement of midwife is mysterous. One should reveal things to Guru, midwife, doctor, and friend This reference to midwife needs to be looked more into , - i think it's a hint of someting. One lover becomes the "doctor" and the other lover becomes the "patient". The patient is humiliated by blindly obeying the doctor thinking he benefits from his instructions.  

Or probably Bhaugatie namah. Forget the persian reference lol.
Like Sri Ganeshyah Namah.

Cool I did'n know that this was the case.
Some of the charitras have been appened to the Zafarnama in Persian translation. It would be interesting also to see if the "morale" of these persian charitras are reflected in the message and subtle attacks the Guru makes on Aurangzeb.
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Hikayat

Have you noticed how in the charitars so far the real messages of the story have been embedded within the dialogue of the story. And not in the apparent actions of the story...
Im wondering whether these messages were embedded into the sexual content stories on purpose. So that the initial impression one gets when reading the charitro pakhyan is that it's sexual stories. Some people will most likely reject them that way... Whereas those who try to contemplate the stories will see how they talk about so so many other things instead. Like Jesus says "I speak in parabels in order to confuse the masses" and  "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13).

Have you noticed how in the charitars so far the real messages of the story have been embedded within the dialogue of the story. And not in the apparent actions of the story...
Im wondering whether these messages were embedded into the sexual content stories on purpose. So that the initial impression one gets when reading the charitro pakhyan is that it's sexual stories. Some people will most likely reject them that way... Whereas those who try to contemplate the stories will see how they talk about so so many other things instead. Like Jesus says "I speak in parabels in order to confuse the masses" and  "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13).

Imagine a group of people sitting together in a study circle (in the darbaar or elsewhere). They are warriors aspiring to kingship. Their aim is to destroy the rulers and take over the lands. They read this charitar story. The charitar vichaar leads to a discussion amongst the warriors on whether a ruler can grab any female citizen he likes since he is the ruler and reigns supreme.... And the discussion continues. Obviosly the people in the study circle are gonna agree that it is unacceptable for the king to do so, - but what is important here is not that there is concensus amongst the warriors on this topic. What is important is that the warriors in the group have actually discussed this topic and done vichaar on it prior to them becomming the rulers! Vichaar done correctly leads to internalization.  What is internalized becomes action.

Satkirin: The 'Taksal' has changed name a few times in history but consisted of the same people. It has been known as the Shahidi misl, the Gian samprada and lately taksal. But the lineage are the same. Likewise with the seva panthi sikhs who has been known as seva panthi samprada and addhan shahi samprada.. But its the same. One seva panthi in the early 1900s wrote some like "There has been one samprada under two names".  Same goes for NIhangs who were called Akalis in the 18th century and then later on were called Nihangs more and more to the extent that they are almost exclusively called nihangs today.

Satkirin: The 'Taksal' has changed name a few times in history but consisted of the same people. It has been known as the Shahidi misl, the Gian samprada and lately taksal. But the lineage are the same. Likewise with the seva panthi sikhs who has been known as seva panthi samprada and addhan shahi samprada.. But its the same. One seva panthi in the early 1900s wrote some like "There has been one samprada under two names".  Same goes for NIhangs who were called Akalis in the 18th century and then later on were called Nihangs more and more to the extent that they are almost exclusively called nihangs today.

There is a hukamnama by Guru Hargobind wherein he ask for a pair of kuckoo birds to be brought to him. The kucko birds are known for their beautiful singing.

Gurfateh
Here is an interesting quote from the Megh Binod Steek by the nirmala scholar Mahant Ganesha Singh from the early 1900s. He urges Indians to respect Ayurveda instead of opting for Western medicine. After quoting Western and Islamic references to the benefits of Ayurveda, he writes :
"Today this science [of Ayurveda medicine] is being disregarded and held inferior by those who inhabit our country. Don’t you know that the medicine prepared with the very ingredients and plants of our own country are like one’s mother’s very milk? This is why when one is ill in a foreign country one is sent back to one’s own place of birth. There the native country’s water and air like the mother’s milk strengthen one’s blood and that way one recovers quickly."

All right kids go into your rooms and stop being lil brats. im closing this topic.

Chatanga ji: We know very little about about Mata Sahib Deva and Mata Sundari if we think about the role they had in the early 18th century Khalsa. Compare this to the Shia notion of Fatima and the catcholic notion of Mary who have central roles in their respective faiths. Whether they administrered Amrit - we dont know really know as very little is published about their life.
The Anandpur birh of Dasam Granth from 1696 has a short poem by Kavi Mangal wherein he asks for Mata Sundari's blessings and some financial assistance for his sons upcoming wedding. The fact that a leading poet of the Guru assembly is asking her for finances might indicate that she was in charge of the finanses of Anandpur (of which Muslim sources from 1720s claim was in quite abundance!)... Much information is given in Suraj Prakash Granth but very little has been translated into Punjabi and even less in English. I bought a book in Amritsar about the Matajis which seems to collect all the references to Matajis from different 18th-19th century sources..I plan to translate it into English  and publish it online at some point.....
Challo, if there are no more questions we should probably just lock this topic.

In the examples we've discussed in this topic I think you've been right all along by looking into the wider context of the shabads.
Where I disagree with you however is your extreme focus on 'feminism' which blinds you to such a degree that you are actually willing to reject scripture of Sikhi for the sake of moulding Sikhi to fit into your modernist way of thinking.
In terms of how to reconcile secondary litterature of Sikhi with SIkhism - Kavi Santokh Singh said to apply the foundations of Sikhi (as given in Guru Granth Sahib) when reading texts such as janam-sakhis wherein there is also content that is untrue. This can also apply to the rehitname and other secondary Sikh writings. Kavi Santokh Singh said not to reject the writing, but instead to use discriminitive intelligence to get rid of the interpolations.

Hopefully the answers will have an effect.

I dont know why women are'nt allowed to do certain types of seva at Sri Harimandir Sahib. But there is no prohibition on it in Sikhi.
The below 19th century painting shows women performing kirtan at Patna Sahib during the birth of Guru Gobind Singh.
 
In the Pracheen Pant Prakash of 1840s (pre-colonial) the author Rattan Singh Bhangu writes that Jassa Singh Ahluwalia (passed away in 1780) was taught kirtan and stringed instruments by his mother and he used to accompany her when she travelled around performing kirtan in the warrior sangats and gurdware of Punjab. And his account also mention that they went to Amritsar and performed there. So I dont know when this tradition of banning women started - but it would'n surprise me if it was introduced during British rule.
Its not true that women are not allowed to accompany men doing kirtan. See this pic from the 1970s.

 
 

To add to the above. There are some traditions in Sikhi which have become a norm over time, to the extent that people think it is rules that can't be disobeyed. One example is females being panj pyare,  due to the norm that it has historically been men who administered Amrit due to its military significance.

 

As far as I know of, - no there is nothing to suggest that women can't be panj pyare. The reason some groups are against is is due to there not being a tradition of it occouring. Historically in the 18th and 19thcentury it was the Nihangs for the most part who administered Amrit as there was a heavily martial and militant spirit to becoming a khalsa. A large majority of the panj pyare then were men and hence a tradition developed that mostly men possesed the role of being panj pyare. Not unlike in Europe today where there is a long tradition of men being CEO's, -its not because women are not allowed but its become habbit so to say. Which is changing these years.
So no, - I dont think there is anything in writing that prohibits women from being panj pyare. So you can't use this example to argue that Sikhi degrades women. Write a short comment to what i've written and come with your next question.

Cheers for setting up this topic.
Okay you are basically pushing arguments back and forth and then you throw in counter-arguments to hypothetical arguments that havent been made yet, - to the extent that it looks like you are having a discussion with yourself.
What is the point you're trying to make ? That Sikhi discriminates against women? Or that Damdami Taksal discriminates against women? or that the Damdami Taksal Rahit Maryada does'nt actually discriminate against women, but only the members of Damdami Taksal discriminates against women because they misread their own text? Im not quite sure what is the point you're trying to make.