Mithr

Shaheediya, well I guess if one wants to be politically correct, then yes Islam is all about peace, tolerance and respect for differing beleifs and faiths. Muslims are the most peace loving people in the entire world and who ever days they arent, they are Islamophobes and racists because the religion of peace cannot and should not be insulted. Political correctness is priceless isn't it?

I think most of the members of Sikh sangat are just kids who are in their early teens. But I really don't see anything wrong in being aware of the threat of Islam to today's world. Islam of today is a very violent and aggressive form of Islam. Why be in denial and suppress the truth of this reality?

The way he was singing, it did sound classical.

Niranjana, for all my points, you have just brushed them aside saying to stick to the point. Now you yourself deviated from the point of this thread which was first and foremost about Rajput Sikhs. But you decided to add some your views which were targeted towards Jatts and had absolutely NOTHING to do with Rajput Sikhs, and if I replied about that you are now telling me to not deviate from the point at hand and stick to the point. The whole point of Jatts "hijacking" Sikh history is reminiscent of Bahadur also claiming that Jatts have hijacked Sikhi, Sikh history. It seems very fashionable now days to condemn and demonise Jatts. Jews have this type of self loathing phenomenon as well. Jews like the famous chess master Bobby Fischer is famous for being a self hating Jew, similarly Sikhs and especially Sikhs belonging to Jatt people have self hating Sikhs and self hating Jatts. Some how everything that tom dick and harry did can be blamed on the Jatts, anything that can demonise Jatts is okay. The men who wrote primary Sikh sources did not have some weird conspiracy in their mind to turn Sikhi into a Jatt dominated Dharm. It so happened that Punjabi Jatts and even Tarkhans took to Sikhi more than other castes especially after the Guru period. There is no denying that. It was never a mass movement of all Punjabis as modern leftist leaning Sikh writers are trying to portray. Sikhs during misl period were a mere 7% of Punjab’s population, and during MahRaja Ranjit Singh’s period Sikhs were about 15% of Punjab. The Sikh movement was always a small minority of men, never a mass peasant movement. Infact even most Punjabi Jatts are either Muslims(now in West Punjab) or Hindus(Haryanvi). Jatt Sikhs are even a minority amongst Jatts! Whoever Guru Jee willed to become a Sikh, he became a Sikh, caste had nothing to do with it.

Wow, that guy was good.

Niranjana wrote: "according to Giani Gian Singh Dullat [1822-1921], author of the Panth Parkash, of a Dullat Jatt family of Kamboval village (now extinct)" Again, I am going to deviate from Shaheediyan's comments for the time being. I have made reference to that Great Sanatan Sikhi Scholar Gyani Gyan Singh on several occasions on this forum - his works are replete with Jatt Supremicist language and notions - so hardly surprising that he attempts to link himself with one of the greatest Khalsa heroes (Bhai Mani Singh) to aid propaganda of his intellectually dishonest work. So whilst Shaheediyan, I wholly agree that Bhai Mani Singh was indeed a Khalsa and that is what we should focus on - unfortunately, the last 300 years have seen so much of our history re-written and abused by pro-Jatt authors that it is only natural for non-Jatt communities to begin to co-ordinate and establish themselves independently, particularly as they experience upward social mobility (usually as a result of their own efforts rather than by sheer numbers and reliance on hand outs from the former British Raj). Right or wrong, non-Jatt communities having had their names maligned for centuries and being continuously told that "Jatts have done so much for Sikhism...Jatts are the backbone of Sikhism...Jatts are the only true Sikhs...blah blah", are we really surprised that non-Jatt communities are now so keen to emphasise their groups, whether or not this aligns itself with the tenents of the Gurus message. It remains to date a common practice in India and abroad, that a non-Jatt shedding his Kesh (particularly if he comes from the so-called 'choora' or 'chamar' background) is no longer regarded a Sikh, however it is perfectly fine for a Jatt to be clean shaven and still refer to himself as a "Sardar" and/or "Singh". These maybe trivial issues for many of us, who in the comfort of our western lifestyles can happily seek to aspire to the words of the Gurus teachings whilst hearing sermons at the Gurdwaras about the corrupt Brahmins of yesteryears, however for those non-Jatts living in India on lands 'owned' by the Jatts, the day to day situation is not so accomodating: http://www.ambedkartimes.com/page6.html" Niranjana, bro the level of hostility you have displayed here for Jatts is really too much. It seems, everone is allowed to display hatred and a level of hostility for a caste, all except for the Jatts, because if the Jatts do it then they are Jatt supremecists. As for Dalit propaganda on www.abmedkartimes.com, I've ready written about this on another thread. Dalit propaganda distorts the facts to suit their personal pro Dalit agenda, especially the Ambedkarites, who are basically communists. You talk about Giani Gyan Singh being "intellectually dishonest" because "his works are replete with Jatt Supremicist language and notions". That's true of Dalit propaganda too. Have you ever read their version of history??? Just read Dalit propaganda by Dr Ambedkar, his book on Indian history is nothing but distorted facts to make Dalits look supreme and make the so called high castes look extremely evil. Sadly, alot of Khalistanis like Dr Sangat Singh make references to Dalit Propaganda because the main target for their propaganda are the usual suspects i.e. the Brahmins, and Hinduism! Propaganda is always written in an angle whether it is pro Jatt, pro Brahmin or even pro Dalit. Just because the Dalits happen to be oppressed people doesn't mean their propaganda and version history is not as distorted as propaganda and version of history written by Jatts, Brahmins or any other group out there.

Everyone wants a Singhs like Bhai Mani Singh Jee as their own. That's probably why every caste has laid claim to him. Just comes to show the type of influance and respect this great Saint commands in the minds of all Sikhs.

alot of different castes claim Bhai Mani Singh Jee, including Vanjaras, Daliits

I don't have the book on me right now. But the Author is a Sikh from the UK and is a school teacher. The book was written to teach the basics of Sikhi. I think the problem is that alot of Sikhs have a Hindu phobia because of which they try their best in distencing Sikhi from Indic religions while trying their best to portray Sikhi as an off shoot of Semitic religions. They will always point out to the story of Guru Nanak Dev Jee going to Hardwar and telling off the Pandits, yet when they talk about Guru Nanak Dev Jee going to Mecca, they will not mention how Guru Nanak Dev Jee also told off the Mullahs and Qazis. Instead they will try to portray Guru Nanak Dev Jee as going to Mecca on a Hajj almost like a pilgrim. This watered down version of historical events of Sikhi has led to many Muslims thinking that Guru Nanak Dev Jee was a Muslim.

Just curious, but why do some say it's a krahat it it's done with a Muslim woman? while Bahadur claims that in olden times Sikhs would especially train since childhood in raping Muslim women. I'm confused. Which one of these is true, or are both of them false???

Niranjana, I personally don't know any Jatt who thinks of General Brar or KPS Gill as their "Jatt Hero". I know Jatts who are for and against Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Bhindrawalay, but no one(monay or Kesadhari) I know supports the likes of Gen Brar and KPS Gill. Jatts that do support these two are the fringe of society. The Jatt pride really took off after the fall of the Khalistani movement in Punjab. The government of Punjab at the time began organising Punjabi cultural shows which especially high lighted Jatt culture, but made sure to exlude Sikhi in this. That is why many people in Punjab and even abroad are now celebrating Vaisakhi as a secular cultural event rather than a Sikh holy day, even though Vaisakhi is both a cultural and religion day. Today, mainstream Sikhs can be classified as being secular people who follow Punjabi culture. Sikh values and Sikh culture means little to Sikhs in todays world. What today's Punjabis fail to realise is that without Sikhi, Punjabi Jatts, Tarkhans and others would be NOTHING! Before Sikhi came in, brave Jatts were getting their asses kicked by Pathans and Turks invading from the North West who would also take away their women. It's only and ONLY because of Sikhi that we Sikhs despite being a minority of only 7-8% in Muslim majority Punjab managed to take it away from Muslims and rule it. This is unheard of anywhere else in the Islamic world that a small tiny minority managed to rule over a Muslim majority area. Plus we also managed to conquer Kashmir and North West frontier! This all happened because we were Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh. Jattism or any other ethnic, caste affiliation had NOTHING to do with it. We need to THANK Guru Gobind Singh Jee a million times a day for giving us the gift of the Khalsa Brotherhood. Taking pride in being Jatt is NOTHING compared to taking pride in being a Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh Jee.

That's interesting. Once I heard Singhs in a Gurdwara talking about something similar. One Singh said that the Mul Matra is an explaination of Ik Oankaar. Jap Jee Sahib is an explaination of the Mool Matra, and the entire Guru Granth Sahib is an explaination of Japji Sahib. Diagram looks something like this: Ik Oankaar ---> Mul Matra ---> Japji Sahib ---> Guru Granth Sahib

I once read an English book about Sikhism a couple of years ago. The author tried his best in trying to portray Sikhi as part of the Semitic group of religions. For example, he claimed when Guru Nanak Dev Jee disappeared for three days, he had met Angel Gabrial who began revealing purpose of his mission in life, sort of like what happened to Mohammad in the cave.

Actually the Sikhi to the max arth are not based on Viakaran, they are just literal translation based on the translators own knowledge of words. If you ask a person with knowledge of Viakaran about Sikhi to the max, they can point towards many mistakes according to Viakaran rules. There are only two steeks based on Viakaran. One was done by Prof Sahib Singh which is available on the internet and the other was done by Giani Harbanse Singh. The late Joginder Singh Talwara also translated based on Viakaran. Bhai Randhir Singh also translated tukhs based on Viakaran. In fact these four men have each written a book on Gurbani Viakaran. It is also to be noted that these men destroy modern liberal minded Sikh people's Naastik arguements based on Viakaran. Because these modern liberal minded Sikhs don't posses any knowledge of Gurbani Viakaran yet they try to write translations undermining Sikhi. By liberal minded I mean Kala Afghanists, Missionaries etc Giani Harbanse Singh Jee is one of my favourite writers. It was after reading his book on Dasam Granth that I became fully convinced about Dasam Bani and became aware of the dangers posed by anti Dasam Granth people.

Good point by Shaheediya. Just as water can be transformed into Amrit by the Panj who recite the 5 banis infront of it, Kara can be transformed into Parshad by the touch of a Sarbloh Kirpan similarly I don't see why water cannot be transformed into something more by reciting Bani next to it. It's all to do with Shardha at the end of the day. I also beleive that the Sarover at Harimandir Sahib is no ordinary water. It's my beleif that taking Ishnaan in that Sarovar is not some empty ritual.

I think Viakaran means grammer.

I didn't notice any words borrowed from English? But I've heard that Ghosts are able to learn and observe like us, which might explain why Sulemaan knew such perfect Urdu. Hearing this tape actually makes my faith in Sikhi even stronger. Sant Ishar Singh Jee was Jaani Jaan. I'm sure he would have known if it was real or not.

LOL that's what I thought too.

Gurbani is Mantar Roop. Many Mahpursh repeatedly recite shabds like a Mantar. Recently many modern thinking Sikhs such as Kala Afghanist, missionaries etc discourage repetitive recitation of Shabds. They discourage Sikhs from doing it by ridiculing it as being too Hindu or by calling it tota raTnaa. This new movement within Sikhs is similar to the Wahabi movement of the Muslims who also make it their goal to discard anything they see as being "un Islamic", which includes doing Zikr of Gods names or repatitive recitation of Quranic verses. This new movement within religions around the world with people thinking with too much logic is actually damaging religions than making it better. Firstly it destroys people's Shardaa for their Dharm. With less Sharda comes the down fall of your jeevan. I know a guy long ago who had alot of Sharda for Sikhi. He was an Amritdhari with a long flowing beard. But later on he started reading Sikh missionary books. Sikh missionaries always promote too much logical thinking rather than Sharda. Soon he started analysing everything like a scientist when it came to matters of faith. It wasn't long before the guy cut his hair because the Sharda inside him was almost dead. Many Mahpursh like Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowalwalay encourage people to do many Paaths of Japji Sahib a day. These spiritual masters themselves have practical spiritual experience that people like us don't have. Yet we also have many worldly logical thinking Sikh missionary leaders who discourage it. Recently some big hot shot Sikh missionary guy from Gurdaspur is doing alot of Parchar against people who do too much paaths of Japji Sahib or Sukhmani Sahib or just Shabds. Point is, matters of faith sometimes require Sharda rather then worldly logical thinking. Ideally we need to think with Sharda plus logical thinking. But that logical thinking should be based on Sikh traditions. By Sikh traditions I mean examples and traditions of the Gurus, great Sikh Mahpursh. Even the example of the Bhaggats of Kaliyug and of previous yugs (whose names are mentioned in Gurbani) are to be followed as exampliary Saints.

That was just one of many reasons. In the Saroops he printed he also took out the Bhagat Bani. Plus he had some strange type of Hindu phobia. Anywhere in gurbani where it said "Raam" or other "Hindu" sounding names for Vaheguru, he would change them to make them sound more "Sikh". Strange fellow he was. Another reason was that, at the time there was no such thing as Padshed Saroops of SGGJS. He was the first to introduce this innovation to the panth. So basically he printed Padshed sroops, without Bhagat bani, without Ragmala, without so called hindu souding names of Vaheguru. This was too much to tolerate for the Panth, and so he was kicked out of the Panth. In addition to that, he was also against most of Dasam Bani. Unlike Kala Afghana who discards all of Dasam Bani, Teja Singh Bhasour did beleive in some Dasam Bani, but he discarded most which also caused many Panthic people of the time to oppose him. But in his younger years, he didn't always have these beleifs. There was a time when he was a leading Sikh leader of the Malwa Sikhs. He did massive Parchaar in his day bringing many people from Malwa into Sikhi. He was also a social reformer, he would encourage girls to attend school, he would do massive parchar against smoking because at the time many people in Malwa would smoke Hukaas. But something happened along the way and he started having these strange views concearning religion. I'm not really sure of what his views on meat were. His example is for us. Who ever Guru Jee wants to raise to the position of leader he can. But who ever goes away from Guru Sahib's Nazar, that person falls like ash. After Teja Singh Bhasour was excommunicated, no one paid any attention to him. He died in obscurity. We as Sikhs need to pray from out hearts to guru Jee that our views stay in tune with Gurmat and never get corrupted like what happened to Teja Singh Bhasour.

And with reference to any of his writings you are saying this? or is this assertion based on Suni-Sunayi Gall (hear say)? Lets see, the reasons why Teja Singh was kicked out of the Panth is because tried to take out Bhagat Bani, most of Dasam Bani and change words within Gurbani and he was the most fanatical supporter of Padshed (seperated letters) of SGGSJ. In contrast to his, Bhai Randhir Singh extensively quotes from Bhagat Bani, Dasam Bani, was against Padshed. In fact, I remember reading a book of his in which he condemned the Bhasourias for writing against Dasam Bani and even quoted from Dasam Banis that the Bhasaurias denied. It seems you havn't really read his books to make such an ignorant(with respect) statement about Bhai Randhir Singh being a follower of or having similar views to Teja Singh Bhasour. How exactly did Bhai Sahib use semitic methodology, with reference to his writings of course. He has only quoted from the primary Sikh canonical writings when writing about Gurmat. By Sikh canonical writings I mean Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Shri Dasam Granth Ji, Bhai Gurdas Dhiya Varaan, Kabit of Bhai Gurdas Ji, Kalam's of Bhai Nand Lal Ji. Now common Niranjana... How does one being educated in a Christian school make one christian influanced? In India I like millions of people have also studied in a Christian school, and I or my siblings can safely say we have NOT been influanced by Christianity one bit. I've noticed that when people cannot quote a man from his writings or his words to prove a point, they find every little bit of evidence they can to prove a point. Now by saying a man went to a Christian school and holding it against him doesn't really prove your point logically. If you can quote his writing and prove he was influanced by Christianity or Christian ideas, then please do so. Using your argument, one could say anything against anyone to prove something without any base. I mean, it's almost like me saying that Rattan Singh Bhangoo and his book Panth Parkash were British inlfuanced because the British commissioned him to writes that book. Or maybe a Brahmgiani like Sant Baba Karam Singh Ji Hoti Mardan was British inflaunced since he served in the British army. Using these types of arguments quite honestly don't make much sense. It's been a while since I've read his books. But I would encourage you to read his books in Punjabi. I think you have gotten you impression by reading his books in the English translation. That is the fault of the translator. But Bhai Sahib has written in such a difficult Punjabi language that when the translator translates it into English he sometimes might have used some Judeo Christian terms which probably gave you the wrong impression. Again, I would suggest you to read his Punjabi books. Forget the Enlgish translations. Comparing those two is like comparing a dooshbag boxer like Prince Naseem (Hamed) to a great legendary boxer like Mohammad Ali. The problem with comparing a Mahpursh like Bhai Randhir Singh to a Dusht like Maan Pehova is that while Maan Singh says something and does the contrary to his own teachings, but contrast this to Bhai Randhir Singh who leads by example whether it is in spiritual matters or fighting for his Desh. He was a real Mardh, a man of his word.

double post

Although I'm Jatt, but personally I think keeping pride in ones Jaat Paat is really shallow thinking. They don't realise that ones Jaat Paat is only connected to that person's Sareer/body. Your body is Jatt not your aatma. In my previous birth I could have been a Chamar, Churha, Khatri, Brahmin or even an animal. Aatma doesn't have any Jaat Paat. When we take pride in ones Jaat we are basically getting more and more entangled in this temporary materialistic reality.

Such a beautiful Shabd Shaheediya. Thanks for sharing it. This Shabd is what every Sikh should live by. This Shabd should be our daily rehet. If most Sikhs were to live by this Shabd, we would no longer have any conflicts within the Panth.

Niranjana, the who exactly is Kalki or Nehkalank? and why are they mentioned in Gurbani?