SURYADEV

These are still used by Royal Navy Physical Trainers , but really only for demonstartion purposes and the lighter versions. If you look at the Navvy's PTI dept's logo you will see crossed clubs on it. It was bought over during the Raj and was massivley popular in later part of 19th cent and early 20 cent. you can make your own using mallets and sledgehammers of different weights. there are some clips on you tube somewhere. i think you'll find them if you search 'body weight excerses'.

Matheen ,I've been told that he has MMA students attending the London akharas. If youre from that area you should check them out. Time and location: http://www.shastarvidiya.org/akhara16.jsp I agree with you, before you go to a teacher you should do full research. Just go and ask Nidar singh or any gatka teacher directly.

It was Nanak Dev Singh who bought Gatka to the West or at least the UK. I have told Nidar Singh that he is to be blamed for this comedic farce that is called Gatka. He did write a book on it call Gatka: Dance Of The Sword. I think everyone has taken 'Dance' part a bit to literally. If you get a copy of it (out of print, now) you will see that all the stuff being taught by all the Ustads these days are his techniques including the names such as MARORAA, FRONT FLICK, CHEER, CHUNGI, NINE HITS PANTHRA etc. He had this one casstte ( cant remember the name) out that had some mantra and nagara and dhol beats that we would practice to. Incredible stuff, really got the juices flowing. He would also do Waheguru mantra with yogic elements; very esoteric and etheral. Even some Ustads I have spoken to admit that Gatka is ineffectual in real life BUT, they argue, that at least it brings to the youth into Sikhi, simran, sangat! My response to them...? So your're preaching to our youth and basing it all on deciet and lies???? How strong do you think their Sikhi really is then??? Not to mention the dangerous predicament they are put in: thinking that they know how to defend themselves but in reality knowing nothing more than Bhangra with swords!

true ; even Nihang Nidar Singh says that all the ANGS are different styles of fighting from different pasrts of India, and these have over the millenia been merged together into SV. Then again as a human there are only so many ways you can punch another person. So no doubt similarities will appaer no matter how distinct styles are geograffically or philosopically. As a former 'GurBhai' of Harjinder i'll be glad to tell you of his Gurdevs even though he will deny it (any reasons for changes of teachers and the actual relationships are best kept 'gupt'. You know about airing dirty laundry in public etc): About the year 1993 in the Year of Our Lord upon this Earth a gora student of Yogi Bhajan started teaching us in Brum by the name of Gur Jeevan Singh. After a few months Ustad Dilbadshah Singh was bought down from Manchester who in turn bought both their gurdevs in from Amsterdam, Holland: Nanak Dev Singh. Over a period of a couple years we had three teachers who were all gotten rid of for a varity of reasons! SInce then we were all 'self-taught' watching VCR clips of Gatka being done in India and by picking up the odd technique from some old baba in this country or by spending a few days with some nihang in India. By this time, as we had no teacher we became teachers ourselves teaching a cocktail of gatka and other martial arts that we already knew. In the late 1990's Harjinder became a student of Nihang Nidar Singh. He learn a few Sava Raksha (self defence) techniques and the basic of VARHAA PENTHRA ie basic punching, slapping strikes using a stance similar to the Cat Stance in Karate. If you watch his 'unarmed' fighting you will still see him using these basics to fend off several opponents during demonstations. Harjinder went on to incorporate 'Shastar Vidiya self defence' into his 'Gatka Sikh battlefield art' that he teaches in his classes. Other students who shared these same teachers as Harjinder include: Buta Singh of Oldbury, Nirmal Singh (v. long beard)of AKJ fame, Sifu Sardara Singh from Walsall who mixes Gatka with Jeet KunDo and Wing Chun. Also, I think, (but it could be a rumour I'm spreading!) Teji of Baba Fateh Singh Akhara in London also picked up a few techniques from Nanak Dev Singh to incorporate with his other matial art styles that he knows. Basically, most of the established Ustads in Midlands area share the gurdevs. I personally don't care if thay do Morris Dancing and call it a Sikh martial art, but not to acknowledge your Guru is a grave SIN in my book and those guys deserve to have their noses chopped off for insulting those who have taught them. Incidently: Master Nanak Dev Singh now is a Shagirid of Nihang Nidar Singh. And he now realises what is gatka and what is SV. Fateh all!

Do we kmow anything about their maryada or culture? How do they differ from other sikhs?

Do Bandai Khalsa exist in the modern age? Any info of their deras / gurdwaras ?

Besides the point, mate. Gatka is purely for demonstations at nagar Kirtans, multi- cultural events and martial art conventions. It has always been like that since it took off in the west.

just the usual: karate, akido, kung fu etc. though harjinder does claim to be studying a "very rare" form of karate.

LOL Know what you mean!! hence the reason I mentioned just reading it in WHSmiths. Bhujangi, Would you mind explaining to the forum about the Self-promotional, vague details of the article? Or the heavily censored pre-agreed questions? Though one thing I have noticed about most gatka akharas in the UK is the change in the 'arts' background and history over the last few years. eg: them moving away from the "Gatka is a Sikh martial arts started by the 6th Guru". Apparently, now they think its 10,000 years old now!

is 'Thandav Stotra' same as THANDAV NACH? That which ShivJi does to bring about destruction in the Universe. Also is THANDAV NAACH a technical dance form in the same vein as Kathak, Bharatnatyam etc or something exclusive to the spiritual world?

Is moshing your head, bopping your body or shrilling at the top of your voice acceptable to you??

only a magazine covershot. http://www.martialartsltd.co.uk/mai/ need to buy the magazine for more. or just pop into your wh smith and read the article there. there may be something on youtube coz as with most gatka schools they specialise in doing public demonstrations.

Jan 09 issue of Martial Arts Illustrated in the UK. An article about Harjinder Singh of Birmingham who teaches Gatka. Interesting the way he has mish-mashed it with other Oriental martial arts in terms of style and clothing. Also a subtle dig at Nidar Singh Nihang where he says to the interviewer that he doesn't need to accept any challenges from others! He was a one time student of Nanak Dev Singh and Nihang Nidar SIngh.

All that racket. I didn't make anything out but a couple of accusations about Nihang Nidar Singh being in the wrong, towards the end. They were worse than a bunch of women at a tea party! Someone put the full debate up, please?! Can you verify that please?

Hari SIngh is based in Birmingham UK. So I'm sure he knows of Nihang Nidar SIngh and ShastarVidiya. I met him when he first started teaching in Handsworth just after returning from China. I was impressed with what he knew about Chinese philosophy as well as fighting. A bit like Nidar Singh it was the 'controversial' stuff that made him famous. I remember all the hoo-haa about him eating dog meat whilst in China (despite being of an AKJ background, I think)! LOL

Sant Singh Maskin ji used to quote , many a time, Socrates and other European philosophers in his kathas. As well as Rumi, Shamas Tabrezi etc. the most Stunning kathavachik I have ever heard! Simply Enchanting!

According to Sant Jagjit Singh JI, Bibi Balwant Kaur (Sultanpur and Bebe Nanki Gurd in Handworth) is also of a Sant padvi. Due to old age and ill health she is presently living with her children in Cardiff.

cheers for that Matheen.

Does anyone know of a high protein (ie Atkins Diet), rapid weight loss program that is based on a veggie foodstuff?

Highly deserved by Bush in my opinion and probs what millions of other around the world would want to do. but was it right to assault/insult a Head of State visiting your country?

At first glance I was gonna question whether it was your own work or just a 'copy & paste ' job! LOL Good work.

Saheediyan, could you please expand? What form of "evolution"? Also, I would have thought its the Traditionalists who would be at pain.

what worse having a blackened darhi or a blackened face? .....kettle calling pot black!!!! LOL

Well that puts water on the Neo-Sikhs viewpoint that kachera was invented by the Gurus then! there is also a story I heard from some Nirmala sant about Hanuman and Rama; and Hanuman last request that he be given Rama's kachera.

It might be worth putting out an advertisment in papers like DES PARDES WEEKLY for pathis. It has a wide readership and most older gianis who are likely to be the pathis you're looking for are avid readers too.