dalsingh101

I thought Badal was Amritdhari?

Really? Just a cursory glance backwards at some jathedars during my own lifetime: Ragi Darshan 'Anti DG' Singh - is he a scholar? Jathedar Ranjit Singh - respected for serving time for alleged assassination but no scholar Jathedar Joginder Singh 'Vedanti' - could arguably be called a scholar though I've always wondered why his work Chevin padshah was withdrawn by the SGPC themselves Don't know anything about the current Jathedar, Gurbachan Singh. But it's hard not to think he is a Badal fill in for the beleaguered previous jathedar?

I don't believe in the existence of satan myself but it's still interesting to learn about other religions/ points of views. Growing up in England the notion of a devil and associated demons scared the bejesus out of me as a child (horror films probably played a part in that too!) I still find that stuff fascinating and like you allude to, I think semitic faiths explain vikaars, paap etc. as the influence of this malevolent external entity. We on the other hand believe that these things are the result of a failure to subdue forces placed within us by God. Growing up around it, I do sometimes find Christian mythology quite fascinating but don't mistake that as me literally believing in it! What do you mean by sharique?

Gives a rationalist, reductionalist account of the devil as perceived in Abrahamic and later western society. http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=683344

I think an important difference may be that certain tales in the Arabian nights seem to be continuations of previous ones, whilst all of the CP ones' seem to be standalone or independent? One can see a list of tales from AN here: http://www.bartleby.com/16/ Plus, the CP seems to be mainly focused on sexual morality/ethics, which I don't think is true of AN?

Well, if we all accept that, then that is at least a first small step in the right direction. (Did you include Tony in your thinking btw? Plus I know a good few jatts who absolutely refuse to acknowledge that any problem exists, other than 'lower castes' not knowing their place!) The next step is to see how the current hegemony can be destroyed and replaced with something more progressive. Bearing in mind that in time, this replacement too, will probably become corrupted (due to aforementioned natural dystrophy) and need replacing. I think that what we are seeing (and have seen) across the globe recently with Tony Blair and Bush cha cha being booted out. Egypt and Qaddafi etc. indicates that MANY people are fed up of current status quos and their inequities and are taking direct action to change things. Let's hope Panjabis and Sikhs can achieve something similar, without the rampaging on streets bit. This thing needs progressive jatts to take a more active role too and help combat the kartootan of the crusty backward pendu ones. There is some bani by Guru Arjan (I think) where he describes his ideal society. Does anyone know what ang of SSGS ji this is on? I can't find it?

If you don't recognise the extra dynamics of discrimination taking place between those who are holding on to the levers power and trying to keep things that way, compared to disempowered idiots who are broadly sniping at each other, then I think you are failing to see a very BIG difference. Yes all discrimination is wrong, but if a group holds important institutes in their hands, they can apply the discrimination with infinitely more effect. I thought this was pretty simple to grasp? One becomes institutionalised and systematic, the other not. I don't share your opinion anyway. I think Jatts in general fail to face up to the above and makes lame excuses when pulled up on it. Sure, you can mention the idiocy between chuhray and chamaars, but that crap doesn't effect the characteristics of the panth like the jatt nonsense does for a number of reasons, not least numbers. But in any case, it looks like Jatt society is imploding as we speak. It's hard not to think these things are related? Apay beej, apay hee kaho. God seems to have built an element of dystrophy in all earthly things, so even if Jatts were great once upon a time, time will flip things. Whether they recognise this in good time and embrace progressive change for the better of the panth or whether they try and cling on to their imagined power until people get so tired of them (and their kartootan) that they even can't show their faces around without sickening people (ala Tony Blair), is anyone's guess? It's that age old battle of progressive and backward I guess.

I'm trying! And how comes you know so many English colloquialisms over there in Scandinavia or wherever you are?

Funny, this Sindhi Pakistani 'Hindu' I meet at the Gurdwara doesn't seem to have a bad word to say about the country? Plus he says he is Hindu but seems more committed to Sikh prayers than most Panjabi Sikhs? Wonders of the world?

The 'overview' angle used in both are curious. Seems to suggest it wasn't an unusual literary form around those times. I'm referring to how the multiple tales are interwoven with a larger narrative, in the case of CP it being the efforts of the minister to prevent his king killing his son over the adulterous allegations. I wonder if Rhinehart picks up on this in her book?

Yes, and if you continue like this I will angrily hurl my zimmer-frame at you!

I don't normally agree with Shaheediyan on much but this: I couldn't agree with more. Certain brothers seem too dumb or egotistical to grasp the benefits of constructive corporate self critique. Hence our society is struggling to make that jump from pendu mode.

That's like a text book Jatt deflection tactic, excusing their own kartootan by saying flannah, timka does it as well, so they don't have to make any effort to change. Yawn.... Anyway, I don't give a crap anymore. Suffice to say, having more insular groups (in the panth) that don't interfere with each other seems like the only option. People are too stuck in their ways and don't want to lose their perceived advantages and cultural baggage for some panSikh egalitarian identity. Maybe it's natural anyway, as every single other movement has developed into semi autonomous threads going in slightly different directions. Might be interesting.

I'm surprised that no one's commented on the contents of the linked article. I thought it was quite thought provoking myself.

Good to see some people lifting themselves out of oppression and empowering themselves. The real question is why old McTony hasn't appeared to grace us with the usual bullshit denial of any culpability on part of his people which he seems to (very poorly) specialise in?

WT...!! Oh well. Those who automatically assumed some Indian government involvement can now shut up. RIP.

You're living in la la land. That's what happens when you watch all those stupid films from the 80s. Do you know how many jattis i've met over the years who've been with all sorts. Where were their brothers and fathers? In any case, I didn't come here for dumb conversations with people like you. So spare me. You belong on jattworld.com, try peddling your shit there, you'll have a receptive audience (for a change).

Okay, so I'm taking baby steps along this path. It has got to a point that Waheguru has blessed his child enough so that he is able to recite a few pauris of Japji Sahib from memory but I have noticed something. Sometimes when reciting from memory I find one can actually recite bani and (bizarrely) pause, only to find they cannot remember where they are in the bani. It's like the recital has become so automated that it flows out without registering somewhere in the immediate consciousness? This seems like a bad thing? Has/does anyone else experienced this?

This is from the Rajinder Singh Gill teeka Shaheediyan gave me, he was a student of Prof. Sahib Singh:

This is where we part ways. I don't think that doing what is mentioned above has any connection to K'stan. A big question is why we aren't doing it regardless, an even bigger one is 'just how the heck did we get into the position to have to do this in the first place?' Plus to imagine that similar or other equally ridiculous issues wont crop up with K'stan is failing to face truths about our people. Like I said, spend time with a lot more typical Panjabis and then think about it. It isn't worth blaming outsiders for this mess, we have made it ourselves.

Have you guys noticed this trend of only putting out books in hardback with hefty prices. Well okay, I'm only talking about Niddar's book prior to this, so it's not exactly a trend but you get where I'm coming from, no? I'm going to have to try and get the library to buy it. That's a bit steep, in this economic climate too! I mean, are they actively trying to discourage sales? Or is the high price a way to ensuring everyday Joe Singhs don't buy it and keep the debate within limited circles?

I'm not really too impressed anyway. The only big thing to come out of a big Sikh area in the UK recently is Jay Sean..... Truth is, it might be fashionable to show your (understandable) ire towards India by adopting Khalistani imagery, but these guys are unlikely to do anything more than utilise the iconography. If K'stani struggle is ever to return it will probably be under very different global circumstances to what exist now. Sure, things can happen suddenly out of the blue like in Libya/Egypt (I still think Zulu had something to do with the latter myself), but it does appear to be unlikely right now. In any case, K'stan or no K'stan, it doesn't make a difference to us resolving long standing social issues between members of Sikh and wider Panjabi society in my eyes. Actually, as time progresses and I get to see more and more what type of jerks exist in positions of power in our society, I'm more and more put off the idea. Then it (personally) comes back to my relationship with Sikhi (the faith) and I realise that many of people who go on about K'stan in reality, aren't really bothered about faith. To them the primary importance is political, economical - which is fair enough. But when I search my soul I know this is something I could never personally be very enthused about. It is what it is, we are what we are.

Work on them then. That's what it boils down to I guess. Maybe that's the bottom line, they simply want to enjoy themselves, not go to war or get embroiled in dodgy Panjabi politics? If you are where you say you are, you should be spending more time working on the hordes around you than here anyway?

This is from the Faridkot tika, maybe someone (ahem Lal Singh...) wants to try and translate it? Is that Panjabi or Hindi??

Breath (is to the body as) Guru (is to the souls of the living), water (is every beings) father and earth (is everyones) great mother. ??