dalsingh101

That's where we differ. I wouldn't assume like that. To project the nature of a giant in Sikhi like Baba Deep Singh onto all other Singhs of his time is problematic. Lets be real, our own traditions tells us that a Singh fled from fighting an elephant despite dasmesh pita instructing him to do so. A Singh went to visit a prostitute and had to be physically prevented from achieving his objective by the Guru himself. Guru ji was deserted at some stage (by the 40 muktay), who later redeemed themselves. So the notion that all Singhs were always models of Sikhi perfection in their behaviour simply due to the presence of Guru ji or Singhs like Baba Deep Singh doesn't seem consistent. Of course, I wouldn't go as far as to say I definitely know what happened then. But the existence and nature of the rehats themselves indicate a system that involved punishments for transgressions. I'm sure they reflect concerns and ground level realities of the time? By this I mean that they were actually used to deal with lapses of discipline by Singhs. You asked for it. You got it! lol

Oh yeah!?!?! [On phone:] Hello mate. Yeah, long time! Can I get an eighth of Thai weed please? Bring it on.

I'd say before that, somewhere in the latter half of the 1700s if I was pushed to make a guess. Also note the 'Bhangi sardars', who were misldaars - which was pretty much the top leadership position one could achieve in their time. No contemporary or near literature to their time makes any big judgmental note towards the taking of the substance that conspicuously gave them their name. Like I said, I'm not condoning this stuff and I know full well those inclined along these ways will use this kind of information to justify their own 'recreational' habits. I don't believe drinking was sanctioned or encouraged under Dasmesh pita who pushed for the highest level of personal discipline in his Singhs, so we agree there. But if you ask me whether every last Sikh was completely teetotal in those times, I'd guess no. Least not in his personal time. Anyway, lets leave this, I know it usually leads to all manner of accusations getting leveled at people sooner or later. Suffice to say, I'm increasingly believing that Sikhs weren't historically as puritan in certain areas as made out today.

Who gives a toss anyway. Personally, I don't think it's any of our business how they discipline their kids. It's up to the sullay parents to decide if they are happy with that for their kids. Like I said, we've had this liberal crap for ages in the UK and look where it's got us. Teenagers are getting pregnant, taking drugs and involved in serious (often violent) crime like never before. This in a so called rich first world country mind you! So I don't think people can turn around and say one way is better than the next. Whatever problems many stricter nations have, they don't have these issues with their youth. The west could learn from that.

Bear in mind this was written a good few decades (1812) before the 'annexation'. This is preBritish influence apnay being referred to:

I think the rank and file soldiers drank too (and took bhang etc.). I don't think it was limited to the higher ranks although they probably indulged in these things more than the foot soldiers purely down to their social milieu (i.e. a lot of entertaining of other high rank people) and plain opportunity (i.e. more money for that kind of stuff). It was probably more of a luxury for the rank and file and from one white man's account I recall, they indulged 'after fatigues', so it may have also had a sort of pseudo medicinal purpose, in helping them relax and unwind (sleep even?) after some serious graft in the day. I think we really have to grasp that being an Amritdhari didn't have 'symbolic' warrior connotations like it does today. Those guys were actual real sipahis, killing, being killed and what not. Training for war, living in a roving camp life environment on campaigns etc. This would have been a tough, male dominated, hyper macho environment. You are talking about groups of men who would be mixed in their psychological make ups. The prolonged experiences of war would have toughened them up and I don't think they would really make a big fuss over a drink in the evening then. Smoking was obviously a different matter. It's possible that being religious meant something very different to these Tominder, Deeps and Harjit foot soldiers than what it does to us everyday civilian Sikhs today. That being said, I'm sure a fair amount never indulged back then too.

Thats' too simplistic itself. How do we account for the fact that we have a few very early (i.e. late 1700s) European accounts of Singhs drinking. If it really was taboo back then, surely those people would have noted it, like they did with hair cutting, tobacco and beef eating etc? I'm not condoning Panjabi alcoholism by the above before anyone jumps on that. Anyway, to be dead serious, some of you guys are really disconnected with typical Panjabi behaviour, I know for myself and hordes of apnay growing up, they are more likely to see older male role models types (uncles, dads etc.) drink than pray. That's the ground reality for MANY apnay. Guys growing up around this kind of stuff doesn't help either: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp6DMzqbDw4&playnext=1&list=PLCB00AB826EDF6B3F

I think that is normal for them. At least going by what some of the sullay I grew up around used to tell me. Plus it's like the desi school of teaching.

I doubt that very much. Canadians aren't really known to behave like the working class English on holidays. Plus my cousin tells me it's very different. Getting drunk and ending up in a puddle of your own puke is a normal weekend activity for hordes over here. Binge drinking is a big problem too.

That time has passed. I would say Gurdwaras don't really reach the masses of people who we would call Sikh today. I know hordes of 2nd/3rd generation apnay who very rarely attend. Plus I actually think that the message of what certain Paks are doing with kurian has been more than widely disseminated amongst the panth. The issue is not one of lack of awareness now but lack of action on a family/local community level. Having seen what's been going on for a while, I've come to the conclusion that really, our biggest enemy is our excessive conservatism, which prevents discussions of certain matters in our homes as they are considered 'dirty'/shameful or something. Especially in many religious families. And even when stuff does happen, the standard response is to cover it up, or never speak of it. I've known Gurdwara pardaans and dhadis who've had their daughters run off with goray and never say a word about it. Anyway, I hope that program about the school was about more than Paks being Paks. Personally I think giving a cheeky little twat a slap to sort him out isn't always a bad thing. Plus given the kind of crime problems the UK has with teenage delinquency, their societal ideas on child rearing (middle class bullshit mainly) are obviously failing at ground level.

I hope so too. I hope some apneean in the west take note too.

What strikes me is how excited some apnay have got at this. It's like they are ecstatic at the idea that a gori would want to marry an apna.

Jaikara, give us a perspective from ground level India on the jaat paat issue if you can. Would be interesting to get another perspective.

Are you kidding me? Our lot don't hesitate to resort to murder over cross caste marriages let alone cross cultural ones. Anyway, did anyone really expect anything else from conservative goray? You know what makes me laugh is that despite this, you'll still get hordes of apnay who still think establishment goray are our 'jigari yaars'... Fact is, they hate this because she has 'gone native'....as they used to put it and the truth is that really, deep down, they often view Sikhs as beneath them. Useful idiots yes, but still beneath them.

Are you kidding me? Our lot don't hesitate to resort to murder over cross caste marriages let alone cross cultural ones. Anyway, did anyone really expect anything else from conservative goray? You know what makes me laugh is that despite this, you'll still get hordes of apnay who still think establishment goray are our 'jigari yaars'...

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” Albert Einstein

With some decent sants and parchaar it's more possible than what you are suggesting in my eyes. We'd better get used to out smarting them then (for a change)! No, they usually come from religious rural families. Or those acting religious anyway. By the way, I realise there is a good chance I've probably misunderstood much of what you've said given your previous comments. If so, I think it's best to put it down to coming from two very different places.

Urrggghh! You don't get it. I'm saying that this trend exists in jatts with the volume turned on maximum. They in turn form the majority of the panth and hence they give it this flavor. I don't think it was as simple as you make out. If anything they would not have waited and watched as the army grew in strength and size like it did. By the looks of it, they were more worried about competent, strong, unbuyable leaders. Hence waiting for them to all die before attacking. This is where you miss the plot completely (and I thought you'd understood that Sikh Revolution book which covers this in some detail?) The Khalsa were easily bought off because they had lost something they had before in the earlier part of the 1700s that made them refuse to submit. It wasn't like Moghuls never tried to sweeten them up with jagirs etc. now was it. It was the replacement of loyalty over belief with loyalty over economic inducements. Thats why the former would rather die hungry in jungles and the latter lined up to give up their weapons for coinage despite being able to easily bog down goray in any subsequent guerilla war. I think you over estimate (by a large way too) the level of industrialisation in M. Ranjit Singh's kingdom myself. A few foundaries does not a nascent industrialised civilisation make. Truth is, following your idea, we can pretty much guarantee, whites (who we would have had to go to for know how) would have turned Punjab into a dirty sweatshop, complete with cruel, nasty, indigenous overlords and hordes of dying poor (at best). You think wasps (or any other industrialised white people around then) would have given us any advantage or not tried to subtly screw us over. All we need is diverse economy, not a f**king farming obsessed one like now. Some people were on the right track in Ludhiana with factories but even they got squeezed out. Truth is, in a peasant led society, being peasants, they have totally neglected arts, culture, media, philosophy, technology. No investment in any R&D. So we have the current situation. Notice how Badal's son probably reads forums like ours and lately that quarter seems to be pushing in all directions with talk of investment in x, y and z. Whether this is too little too late, no one can tell. But if he is opening the film industry up in Panjab lets hope it doesn't lead to even more dumbed down jatt films, turning people even more stupid than they are already? Try to be less ambiguous then. Nothing you are saying is convincing me that we need to stop being overly materialistic arseholes before we make a move. We got no (or very little) soul left any more. This effects cohesion, cooperation etc. Which in turn creates a society in competition with each other, not outsiders. Well it can't be that good because they've had to drain the third world for brains for ages to keep their NHS up for instance. You don't realise that rural peasants aren't f**king poor as you make out. Many of them are infact the richest people in Panjab. Hence that high status they can't stop going on about. Truth is, these people frequently end up WASTING their money on dumb stuff. They are stuck in a rubbish culture of their own making, that is what stops them smartening up. Not lack of opportunity. They have more of this than a lot of people in Panjab and indeed India. They can learn whatever you teach them pretty well, if not better than most wc goray. They just have dumb worldviews they inherit. That is what holds them back. No but a hell of a lot are. Enough to make it a thing that reflects us. We don't have near enough progressive people because people are sticking to tribalism - not lack of education. If you think about it, Sikhi itself is an education against what we do in practice as a society. That's how much we've lost the plot. Look industrialisation (or anything else) before resolving our our social/spiritual ills is only going to corrupt those innovations. In all of this you just ride roughshed over even trying to face up to the the ills we have going on between us. Maybe you see it as a result of the current set up? I don't, I see the current set up as the result of this problem. The first thing to nail is that cut throat, jealous attitude inherent in our people. This is the biggest obstacle to our progression. That is a spiritual problem. If it takes us breaking down to absolute shite gutter level for us to learn this lesson. Then what can we do? What being on the receiving end of Moghul crap wasn't serious? Every argument you pull out just makes me think we need to develop strong independent communities away from Panjab. Nothing else. That place is like a toxic pendu run, time bomb right now. It's got everything going for it in the world compared to other Indian states yet still our people manage to mess it up?? Just as a side note. Notice how the Taliban running around like 16th century jihadis is giving whitey drama.

In the last few days before the Golden Temple was attacked in 1984, withholding of grain was planned. I think it was to start the day after they attacked. It probably forced Congress's hand.

That's where you and me differ, you see it as improving their lifestyles yet even a cursory study of non whites who adopt white culture styles around the globe indicates that doing this leads to all manner of psychological, social and physical problems. What the people are aspiring to may well be 'modern', but that doesn't mean that it is an improvement. It is plainly maya (illusion) that is making them think that it is. What we need to be asking is why we aren't putting more energy into developing our own models for progression that fit into our own native religious framework (without the dogma). Of course there are good ideas we can learn from the west, but a lot of their ideas are now proving to be VERY detrimental to society and the environment. I'm just suggesting more creativity and discernment on our part that's all. Industrialisation is a part of the solution but over industrialising a tiny area like Panjab will only shift the environmental problems from a rural source to an industrial one. Sorry but there are no simple clear solutions here. There is no way of telling what direction our society would have gone in under those circs. To presume they would have taken the industrial revolution route is presumptuous to an extreme. What way do you imagine our society would have gone? In regard to your comments about the Indians. Well, we are yet to see where whiteys kartootaan are going to lead them in the long run. But from where I am standing it looks pretty bleak for them. Their sun is setting and pretty soon they will either have to learn to humble themselves globally or get into a REALLY dirty, ugly war outside. Time will tell. But it certainly isn't sunny for them. God knows where their collective karma is going to lead them. The main thing they have is their ability to cause mass destruction with their weapons. I think some of your theories are over projections and weird and don't really take into account the very nature of our people (especially back home). But they are interesting to hear none the less. You'd better get used to people questioning what you say, and offering alternative viewpoints. I'm not saying that YOU are advocating those things. What I'm saying is that when you introduce modernisation and wealth to our people they seem to totally abuse it through showing off, getting high drunk, fancy celebrations etc. Thinking logically/chronologically we need to remove that stupid characteristic before we introduce them to more wealth, or else they'll just do dumb shit with it. Like they mainly do now. You are so off the ball on this point it is unbelievable. I've met a few VERY clever whites from rural England who smash it academically in technology, arts, sciences. You know why, because they have the leisure and time to really stretch themselves intellectually in their slow paced environments and have access to books, literature etc and are encouraged along those ways. If our pendus were simply given higher aspirations, other than imagining themselves to be 'sardars' and acting on some bullshit fantasies, they could do this too. But you probably know yourself, many rural Panjabis have an aversion to real education, really bettering themselves. Sure they'll do it raise their status, try and get a fancy job, or improve marriage prospects and again, try and exalt their status over others in a very egocentric way. But the concept of education to simply improve oneself and one's society just doesn't exist amongst us. Instead you will almost invariably get pendus covering their tracks by quoting bani (out of context) to put down education and educated people. Things have to flow in a chronological, sequential order for us to improve. Jumping to a later stage without nailing an earlier one often just simply turns a perceived advantage into a disadvantage in the long scope of things. Look at us with the so called recent 'Green revolution' and even the massive funds our faith generates in donations. We had plenty of wealth, prosperity, but we didn't have the worldlywiseness (duniyadhari) to use it to strengthen and improve our society. Look at the net result. Pollution, drug addiction, foeticide, mass exodus etc. etc . etc. Right now the emphasis should be on turning us from a shallow, savage, materialistic, soulless, egocentric community into a cohesive, hardworking, intelligent, disciplined, morally upright people. If you analyse it, this is exactly what the earlier Gurus strove to achieve BEFORE they commenced on any grand scheme to take on the Moghuls. Really this Ravidasia thing is just one symptom (of many) that result from a failure to do this. It's just common sense. The revolution we desperately need right now is a social one between ourselves. Then it must spread outside. That is EXACTLY how our Gurus did it.

I think this doesn't get discussed enough in my opinion. If you analyse it, KDS and HSD are suggesting two diametrically opposed solutions to the same issue. Now, the way I see it, the root of the problem is closely linked to Panjabis (especially and particularly the jatts for cultural reasons that we should already be aware of), strong desire for not only mod cons but also ways to exhibit their status. This drives much of what they do. It looks like they have put this at the centre of their 'culture'. Now HSD seems to be seeking means/methods to allow them to achieve these materialistic desires. On the other hand KDS, in his statement above seems to be implying that Panjabis in general need to tone down these materialist aspirations and learn to accept living more humbly and within means. Now, I know for a fact, that Sant Jarnail Singh's whole ethos actually caused peasants to adopt the latter type of lifestyle and they prospered by saving money, doing lots of work themselves and not spending it on booze, drugs and other unnecessary luxuries. So it isn't actually something that hasn't been tried before. I think the rewriting of history on an egocentric plank that contends all jatts were 'sardars' and somehow have some birthright to greatness, (that certain pillocks like to subtly and not so subtly imply using popular songs and even motivated written work), plays a big part in too many jatts over stretching their ambition to unrealistic and frankly stupid aspirations. This has led to a hordes of lazy, good for nothing idiots being abound who have an aversion to do the very work their forefathers were so proud of. Hence we have reliance on bhaiyas like never before. Given the current situation I think that KDS's solution is the better of the two suggested. I know other communities have subsistence farmers (hell, even in Italy, a so called 1st world nation!), who eat and live well. An old Lebenese lecturer of mine showed me subsistence farmers from her neck of the woods that looked well and ate and lived well. Note, when I say subsistence here, they also sold any surplus for additional funds. Point is, farmers do and can live well like this. But when you've got people whose heads are filled with all sorts of stupid crap, they can't help but do stupid things. I agree, farming is an honourable job. But being a farmer and imagining you are some sort of higher overlord is a mugs game, as many are finding out. They need to get back to the humble roots of their faith more than ever I reckon. All these 'modern' vibes aren't doing them any favours. And all of this plays into their attitudes towards people like Ravidasias.

My family (which has a few moderate and hard drinkers) would laugh in the face of anyone who tried this. I think a much better idea would be to use a scientific approach using statistics from the NHS and imagery to scare people in the newer generations. Look at Paul 'Gazza' Gasciogne for an example of how someone can keep drinking despite all manner of problems with it for an example. You have to leave the olders and focus on the younger generation. I have a feeling that Panjabi Sikhs are probably disproportionately represented in the liver problem statistics. But, to balance the whole issue out (and not to condone drinking) I feel I should write about this. I had a teetotal 'uncle ji' who developed diabetes with his blood sugars all over the place. The medicine was only partially effective. In desperation he followed the advice an old goray suggested, which was to have (strictly) one/two shots of whiskey every second day (max) before bed or straight after any heavy evening meal. The results were almost immediate he told me and lowered and stablised his levels. When some of us looked into it, it had scientific basis in that the liver apparently utilises sugar quite heavily to process/clean the bodily system of alcohol, which leads to it being sucked out of his blood stream. And yes, their is a question about the possible knock on effect on the liver from this. Again, please don't think of this as condoning typically hard drinking behavior from our lot. But I do think that we need to break the cycle that has it perpetuating in families over generations.

megalol@ Oh, well, at least you put a smile on my face.

Look at how people are susceptible like muppets to media influence, if it is presented in a glamorized fashion. That's what makes a lot of apneean switch be it to Holly or Bollywood. We need to present models, concepts and ideas in that way. Fight fire with fire. Not the cheesy, poorly written, unintelligent, poorly acted corny crap we usually produce. e.g.

It's time to get majorly arty-farty in my opinion. Influence through the arts.