dalsingh101

How does this make you feel?

That's cool brother. I was just a bit concerned because in the past, some misguided Sikhs people have jumped into bed with anti-Muslim KKK type organisations in the UK as a knee jerk reaction to Sikh girls being targetted. We have to sort our own problems out.

They are a bit skinny? Or as my mate used to say...kabooter!

Seriously dude. If we have problems with any other quom. Lets deal with it bravely ourselves and not jump on some extreme right wing bewakoofs bandwagon.

Malwe versus Bhagat! Round 3! Ding Ding!!! Come on guys, be nice!

Maybe some good will come out of this. Maybe more people will reflect on and reject caste. I hope so.

I was looking for details on this Gurdwara but couldn't find it. Can you help Malwe da sher?

Duplicate.

Tony ji I am all up for positve discrimination to uplift the oppressed so I don't see anything wrong with what you have described myself. But if you think that this has somehow levelled the field, you are living in la la land. The mental hatred perpetuated by Jat culture towards other 'castes' (esp. Churah and chumar) is unreal and something I dojn't undertsand fully. If you are 'dil da sacha', take off your blinkers and just look and ask. I am not saying all Jatts are doing this because some have imbibed the more enlightened message of Sikhi or more positive western liberal values that are in contradiction to this type of supremacist thinking. Besides, don't talk like Jats never got support throughout the green revolution Tony. I don't live under this impression!! I know full well that many Jatts in relative's pinds are dirt poor and barely surviving. Suicides are endemic apparently as is drug taking amongst the youth. But doesn't this even further highlight the ridiculous nature of 'modern day Jatt culture' which has Jats prancing around under the impression that they are the 'dogs gonads' whilst these things are going on in their own and the wider Panjabi community. Seriously, the majority of Jatts have issues acceping any responsibility for the state of Panjab despite their undeniable dominance there. If your styling yourselves as leaders and things are going down the potty, then who is to blame? In the west we would sa that we have ineffectve or corrupt leadership under such circs. Anyway, despite whatever you may say, there is clear exclusion at power levels and an attempt at hegemony in Panjab brother. Man, if you are saying certain Gurdwaras (mainly Singh Sabhas) have not been dominated by Jatt committees, then you must either be asleep or consciously hiding the truth. Just because they may not have JAT clearly stuck on a sign outside of the Gurdwara doesn't mean that they are not doing the caste thing, albeit more surreptitiously. Do you actually believe this? Plenty of dera babas are Jatts and have been accused of all manner of things. Lets not rake up gundh though. That will make both of us feel sick. It is very well known . Go to the morons at jattworld.com and see just this. Jats have very good and bad characteristics. Bravery being a example of the former and excessive insularity the latter. This insularity is playing havoc in Sikhi today which was built on the premise of inclusion and is a straight meritocracy. The saddest thing of all, is that the Sikh community as a whole has SO MUCH potential and we often fritter this away on a feudal based hierarchy we have imposed on ourselves. The real roots of this today is plain ego. All SIkhs, Jat or otherwise should be reflecting own what is going on in the world around us and flexibly adjust to uplift our own community instead of indulging in plain ego fuelled stratefication. It is cool anyway, I know that any oppression will only last for a while anyway before God himself wil cause it to destroy itself. But that being said, I think Sikhs are at a crossroads. We all have deep questions to ask ourselves regarding which direction we should go in in future. If any (sub)community has positive cultural contributions to make, share them and make this thing grow stronger. Consider giving up any perceived advantage and hegemony for something greater. That is the stuff nations are made of. I'm not sure if I expressed my point clearly here BTW.

Whoever did this, did not do the Khalistani cause or wider panth any favours. If anything it will push the message that Sikhs are indeed a savage bunch of animals that need supressing. Given that we are days away from the 25th anniversary of 1984, I couldn't think of a dumber thing to do by a Sikh. You could understand if say KPS Gill or Brar was targetted. But this............ You couldn't have given the enemies of the Sikhs a better scoop. Like the media doesn't get enough of portraying turbanned and bearded men as fundamentalists anyway.

Drawof, I agree that self definition is important. I have no problem with people defining themselves in this way. My issue is with the fostered hatred that is ingrained within certain strains of the Sikh community. I don't really care if someone calls themselves Jatt myself, but I do feel ashamed when I see Sikhs hating and oppressing one another. Do you undrestand this? I disagree strongly, I don't think this issue boils down primarily to economics, although I can see why this conclusion would be easy to draw if we just look at India/Panjab. You can see this when you meet people in the diaspora from say a Jat background, who encounters a so called low caste who is infinitely more successful than them. It is a cultural mindset, that has been drummed into them that makes them hatefilled. This is plain old supremacist thinking. Exactly like what was [is?] common in the Southern states of America by some whites towards blacks. Even a poor trailer trash white person feels they are inherently superior to say a middle class black family because of what has been pumped into their head. The issue is with how many Jatts raise their children, this is what needs to be addressed. Not any socio-economic factors. The only economic aspect of this I can see, is the use of this engineered antipathy to ensure that so called "low castes" do not get access to land, facilities etc. to keep the Jatts "on top." Excessively materialism being at the core of modern day Jatt culture may be a contributing factor but only a small one. I think set, ancient attitudes are being play out here. This type of unbringing has the ultimate effect of dehumanising the other and projecting and perpetuating hostilities on social interaction that needn't be so. The use of labels you described for Jats is not really comparable to the systematic hatred and oppresion towards chuhray/chumars practiced by many (not all) Jatts. If things are being done to level the field, than this is for the better. I also understand not that peopel from "higher" castes will resent this. Personally I feel the uplifting of people regardless of background was a core feature of our Sikh culture. So this should be happening in Panjab more than anywhere else in India! To me the alternative boils down to being part of an unfair, oppressive, backward and savage people. That isn't what Sikhi is about. You said: And that is simply down to inbred, fostered hatred which results in exclusion. It is the culture that dehumanises with notions of inherant superiority. Some of us in the diaspora have some experience with seeing this in practice with other extreme communities (such as the NF). Jatts need to do some soul searching, and realise that many of the cultural norms in their society starkly reject and contest the egalitarian notions within Sikhi. As an individual you have to ask, which way do I want to go?

The messed up thing is, the way non-caste obsessed Sikhs have to tip toe around the issue. Sad fact is, many "higher castes" (mainly but not exclusively Jatts) behave very similar to the way white Southern trash did towards blacks in America not long ago. Anyone who is familiar with this should know that this is an actively fostered mentallity within certain strains of "Sikhs". Teh plain fact is, if we go down this route, we may as well kiss goodbye to any attempt to portray the Sikh faith/people as progressive, tolerant and positive. Drawof, I agree that people will find other ways to try and exclude and oppress, but that does not mean that we do not fight the current method. Maybe it is better we attack this injustice in all its forms, however it tries to manifest itself. AN ongoing battle for justice. Barring that, I am fast losing any faith I had in Jatt Sikhs. They seem to be tearing up Panjab and the panth more than any chuhray/chumaars right now.

This is exactly why backward casteism needs to be destroyed!

Funny, I've heard comments that Sikhism is some peasant based cult by ignorant people. Weedol, insulting a culture, that hasn't even done anything to your own people is just plain rubbish. Don't do it!

Guys, I fully understand the fear of someone exploiting the faith for money. But Bhagat is young and just experimenting. Get over it. Trust me, you'll like some of his work, just give him time. Bhagat stay off these sites if you don't like criticism or get used to it.

If someone has to look up how to make a petrol bomb on the Internet, he must be thick.

She looks like an idiot.

Oye mundeya! Don't let the billi out of the thala! sssshhhhh.......... lol

Do you mind elaborating on that, because you lost me there brother.

Flippin hell Ishraqi. Have you got a good word for anyone?

How are they a joke say compared to the Latino community? I'm just trying to understand your train of thought. Granted, rap is not what it used to be. I think younger people just take free-er mediums such as Internet for granted and not realise that the not so long ago, the only thing you would really hear is the biased voice of goray pretending to know everything and be right about everything.

That's a bold statement brother. A lot of people (granted older ones) will say that rap introduced them to their history with references to Marcus Garvey for example. Well, you know many Pakistanis feel that Bhangra and Panjabi culture in general does just that, bring out animalistic base instincts.

Ishraqi I agree with much of your post (very well written BTW!), but there are some elements I question. I know rap today can be foolish, but originally it provided a voice for people culturally marginalised by the mainstream Anglo-Saxon/Jewish dominated media. There was much conscious rap produced not so long ago that had a very positively empowering effect on some the people who were most vulnerable in a very biased America. A part of hip hop (at least the original type) is simply Afro-American folk culture or expression. It was not all about biatches, hos and bling. In the late 80s/early 90s it was also a vehicle for a strong black consciousness movement (see Jungle Bros, Public Enemy etc.). Me personally, I enjoy Bhangra, as part of my cultural heritage and outsiders could equally attack it for being "low brow" and "vulgar". The truth is that people like Kuldeep Manak were producing the equivalent of "gansgta rap" a long time before blacks, albeit with some variation. This agree with. I also note that the discouragers of intellectual activity really like to bandy about the famous versus by Guru Nanak, about having mounds of books but no spiritual knowledge as some sort of justification for being semi/uneducated. They use it like a defensive shield. Nicely put, but until it is rectified, we shouldn't be blind to the fact that people may genuinely have a relatively (and I use the word relatively very specifically here), positive attitude to that which they are discussing with their common vulgar vernacular. The writing under discussion is a case in point in my mind.

Fair enough but sometimes you have to judge a people by their majority actions not just the content of their professed belief system. However you put it, both sides have elements that exercise supremecist actions. The problem is as Sikhs we should know a lot better because we are explicitly told not to be so, we have so many institutions that are aimed at attacking this type of thinking (langar, amrit sanskar, communal names etc.) yet it persists. And your other point about claims of Jesus being black. Well, this is partially justified because one thing is for certain that he was not a blue eyed, blonde white man as is commonly portrayed. The truth is he was probably quite dark compared to western Europeans who have now remade his image into their own. Plus there may be some truth with the link between Israelites and blacks. I have met whiteish Jews with afro hair, there is a tribe of black Jews in Africa who claim to have decended from Israel and have some substance to their claim. If you even partially understood the unheaval and cultural destruction black people in the West Indies went through under slavery you might be a bit more sensitive to their movements. Yes there is a reactionist trend against white supremacism inherent in there but if we look at our own old rahits that have survived from the 1700s we can see lots of anti-Muslim dominantion features in there too.

That makes no difference if both sets of people are practising supremecism. In fact, you could argue, that it makes Sikhs even worse because they should know better.