SikhKhoj

Because Paapiman and Bhagat seem to be in denial here is the whole shabad:
ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
ਸਾਹਾ ਗਣਹਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਸਾਹੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋਈ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥੧॥ 
ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਬਦਿ ਘਰੁ ਲਹੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥ ਪੜੈ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੀ ॥ ਸਭਸੈ ਊਪਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹੋਰ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਉ ਨ ਸਗਲੀ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
ਨਾਵਹਿ ਧੋਵਹਿ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਸੈਲਾ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਤੇ ਮੈਲੋ ਮੈਲਾ ॥ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਾਰਥਿ ॥ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥਿ ॥੩॥
ਵਾਚੈ ਵਾਦੁ ਨ ਬੇਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੈ ਕਿਉ ਪਿਤਰਾ ਤਾਰੈ ॥ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਚੀਨੈ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥ 
ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਅਪਰਾਧ ਸਰਣਿ ਹਮ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਭੇਟੇ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥੫॥
The so called 'calculations' (gannt) is to make a birth chart, not the normal everyday maths. 

BhagatSingh;

Go to panna 904 and read the whole Shabad Guru Nanak Maharaj addresses to a Pandit as is evident from ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ (panday = pandit). One of the tuks clearly mentions the word "jotak": ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥
Therefore it is clear that Guru Nanak is talking about the futility of drawing birth charts and calculating auspicious days. I would just request you to next time read a whole Shabad before creating an issue, thanks.
 

Guru Nanak Patshah says in Bani:
ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ
Astrological calculations about one's future create suspense or sorrow in one's heart;
But by seeking the Guru's refuge, one always remains in peace and comfort.

Guru Nanak Patshah says in Bani:
ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ
Astrological calculations about one's future create suspense or sorrow in one's heart;
But by seeking the Guru's refuge, one always remains in peace and comfort.

The big question is can you change the future with Deb drishti? How many sants were able to predict events 1947 partitions and warned sikhs? How many predicted bluestar? How many 1984 riots ? Hardly any one was able to predict or save innocent lives.
 
I think the people that have these  things may can see the events but none of them have power to change it. It happened with my father . He had a collegue  who used to tell him that his forefathers were great meditators and sometimes use to lift from the ground and he too have some spiritual knowledge. One day he just slightly meditated and and try to see my Dad's future and then he just said if I tell you, you will cry , That's it , His prediction became partially true as 2 year later my father suffered an accident and suffered badly
 

Guru Nanak Patshah says in Bani:
ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ
Astrological calculations about one's future create suspense or sorrow in one's heart;
But by seeking the Guru's refuge, one always remains in peace and comfort.

Guru Nanak Patshah says in Bani:
ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ
Astrological calculations about one's future create suspense or sorrow in one's heart;
But by seeking the Guru's refuge, one always remains in peace and comfort.

Guru Nanak Patshah says in Bani:
ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ
Astrological calculations about one's future create suspense or sorrow in one's heart;
But by seeking the Guru's refuge, one always remains in peace and comfort.

Guru Nanak Patshah says in Bani:
ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ
Astrological calculations about one's future create suspense or sorrow in one's heart;
But by seeking the Guru's refuge, one always remains in peace and comfort.

Why no missionaries? ^ ;)

Why no missionaries? ^ ;)

How can that be a metaphor if it clearly says Guru Nanak gave Ik Oankar and then Hanuman gave Kach, Kaal gave Kard? I mean if it only mentioned devi devte I might have accepted your theory but it clearly is talking about a physical person since it mentions Guru Nanak Maharaj too in the same line and the same context of GIVING something to the ceremony.

People like you can justify anything. fact is that there is no metaphor in the Daya Singh Rehatnama it clearly says

'tab devi pargat hoe' - then the Goddess appeared. it goes on to say that Ik Oankar mantar was given by Guru Nanak, Sarbloh Knife by Kaal, Kach by Hanuman.

Now people like you will say 'Guru Nanak' who gave Ik Oankar mantar was a metaphor too? Either Nanak is the physical person (or Jot) just like all other Hindu Devi Devte who gave something to the Amrit Sanchar ceremony or they're all metaphors which doesn't make sense

I have provided references in countless thread, cba to post them again and again man.

I posted the Katha where Gurbachan says Muhammad stole work of a Brahmin which is actually the Quran... This was also written in Bansawlinama, just goes on to show how Gurbachan just reiterated what he read in unauthentic books. Also lying that Guru Har Rai married 8 sisters and what not man.

Yea sure you can justify everything that Baba Gurbachan says the same way some Muslims justify beheadings. Yea metaphors right, just like Daya singh rehatnama CLEARLY saying Hindu devi devte came and gave kakkars to Guru Gobind Singh. Thats metaphors too lol

If I prove one point wrong of Gurbachan its enough to prove that he was not infallible and thus made more mistakes. Why did Taksal and Gurbachan Singh say that reciting Gurbani while walking is bad and even invented sakhis to justify his point? Why did he contradict gurbani? Why did he indirectly attack the concept of Nagar Kirtans?

Be honest, would you guys stay still if the same allegations had been made by a missionary? Its so funny to see these double standards.

Your Sant Ji just copied his allegations from Bansawlinama. Time to actually introspect and realise that your Sants only state what they have read, they have no so called illumination getting knowledge from Dhur like Guru Jis.

Same way Gurbachan Singh said Hanuman gave Kachehra just like old books and Rehatnama Daya Singh.

Accept these facts.

^^
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking

Since amardeepu likes such news, I have a collection on my USB:
 
 
Over 200 Dalits Convert to Sikhism in MP
NDTV correspondent reported last May from Guna, Madhya Pradesh
In Madhya Pradesh’s Guna and Vidishia district more than two hundred Dalits have converted to
Sikhism in order to free themselves of discrimination by the upper castes - a tradition that has
been prevalent for years. Though this has not yet led to a change of mindset, more Dalits look all
set to convert to Sikhism. 80 year old Dangal Rai is now Dangal Singh. All his life, he says, he
has suffered discrimination from upper castes Hindus and has now decided to convert to
Sikhism.
We were not allowed to enter the temples and were shunned by everybody, said Dangal Singh.
The village of Deomari is VIP constituency in every sense of the word. It is part of Jyotiraditya
Scindia’s parliamentary constituency and also part of the Raghogarh assembly constituency
represented by Chief minister Digvijay Singh. But here, too, Dalits have been traditionally
discriminated against and four families in this alone have converted to Sikhism. Many of the
villagers say their first introduction to the religion came when migrant labour from the village
went to Punjab.Conversions have since been reported from 11 villages in Guna district and four villages in
Vidisha district. In January 2002 alone 42 people converted. In March at least 200 people
converted, said Giani Bhajan Singh, Guru Singh Sabha, Guna. (MP)
Dalits here are still learning to tie the turban and the basics of their new religion but the outward
changes have yet to bring a change of the mindset through which others see them. Even today,
after conversions, we still have problems. We are still shunned and humiliated. said Nishan
Singh. Pracharaks have yet to instil the heroic spirit of Sikhism.
[Courtesy Sarbhpreet Singh]

The Dalit tag still sticks despite converting to Sikhism




By Imran Khan, Patna, June 9 : It is a centuries-old ignominy they wanted to escape by converting to Sikhism in Punjab and found new respect there. But back home in Bihar, the tag of Dalit refused to leave them.



Many Dalit labourers who migrated to Punjab for work years ago and converted toduring their stay there are upset that they are still being categorised as Scheduled Caste in government records after they returned to their native villages in Bihar.

Sanjay Singh, who converted to Sikhism during his years-long stay in Punjab and sports a colourful turban and a long beard, says local and district administration officials in Bihar are not ready to accept him as a Sikh. Guru the founder of Sikhism, preached against discrimination and prejudices on the basis of caste, class and status.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/25333-dalit-tag-still-sticks-despite-converting.html

"The government officials are still treating us as Rishideo of the Musahar caste (the poorest Dalit community known as rat eaters), not as Sikhs, despite our efforts to convince them," Singh told IANS, adding that he was yet to be termed a Sikh in the government records despite repeated requests.

Singh said that about two decades ago his close relative Naren Rishideo left for Punjab to earn a livelihood and converted to the Sikh religion, becoming Naren Singh. His example was followed by most of those of his caste men working there.

"We tasted dignity, respect and equality after we converted. Before that, we were treated as low caste, sometimes even inferior to animals, by the upper caste and backward caste people in the village," Sanjay Singh said.

He said most of the women members of their families have now started using the Kaur surname.

Rup Singh and Manish Singh, who also converted to Sikhism, are no longer keen to be known as Rishideos and want that they should be treated as Sikhs in government records.

"We changed our religion to get rid of the stigma of untouchablity and to live a life with pride. We were happy to return to our village. Local people, barring a few, accepted us as Sikh, but in the government records and caste certificates we have the same old Dalit tag," Rup Singh told IANS.

Soon after they returned to their village Halhalia in Araria district, nearly 400 km from Patna, they were shocked to learn that despite the change of religion they would have to fight another battle to upgrade their social status in official records.

"All the Dalits who converted to the Sikh religion are still Dalits in the caste certificate and we are being denied the status of the Sikhs," Rup Singh said.

Manish Singh, another convert, says that they are no longer Dalits after embracing the Sikh religion and they should instead be treated as minorities as Sikhs are a minority community in the country.

A large number of migrant labourers from Bihar who converted to Sikhism in Punjab and stayed back there hardly face any identity problem, but the converts who returned to their native villages in Bihar are facing a different discrimination, Manish Singh said.

Araria district magistrate Anjani Kumar Verma, when asked about the problem, told IANS over telephone that he was not aware of the matter.

"So far no such complaint has come to my notice. If there is anything like it, the district administration will do justice with them," Verma said.

Over 200 Dalit villagers of half a dozen villages including Kamta Balia, Gurumuhi, and Parmanpur under the Khwaspur panchayat (village council) have already converted to Sikhism. They have set up a gurdwara with support of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC), while some Sikhs from New Delhi are helping them to maintain it.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25333


--- IANS
 

A VILLAGE OF AMRITDHARIS (this time Punjab)

PANTHIC.ORG  | Published on December 12, 2007

Amritdhari Residents of the Chabrewal Village
Rupnagar, Nurpur Bedi (KP) -  Recently, a local Punjabi newspaper published an inspiring article about a particular Punjab village in the foothills of the Shivaliks that has rapidly accepting the Sikhi way of live, en masse - a trend that is opposite of what is happening in rest of Punjab.  Perhaps this unique village can inspire others accross Punjab to return to their Sikhi roots.
Village Chabrewal is a small village in Nurper Bedi situated in the hills of Shivalik.  Because of its small size, this village goes unnoticed by the rest of the world and it enjoys a simple lifestyle--remaining aloof from worldly facilities and luxuries.  During one time, this village, which is mostly populated with the people of the Gujjar clan, was known for its people’s smoking and drinking habits--but now, it has been completely transformed by conversions of people who have chosen to adopt the Sikh faith.  Amritdhari men and women can be spotted easily upon entering the village.
The population of this village remains scarce, at about 250, but Mela Ram has now become Mela Singh, Jog Raj has now become Jog Raj Singh and Dolat Ram has now become Dolat Singh.  At least one member of every family has taken up the Sikh way of life by adopting the path shown by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
According to Jog Raj Singh, the Chief of this Village, Sikh influence was brought here by a person named Mela Ram.  Mela Ram, Son of Babu Ram, was the first person to be baptized into the Khalsa Panth. Afterwards, he inspired many others as well.  Not only have the ordinary villagers taken up the Sikh way of life, many of the village’s amritdharis are eminent public figures.
Prof. Jaswinder Singh who teaches religious studies at the Kalgidhar Kanea School Kahnpur Khuhi said that Baba Dalip Singh Samirowal and Baba Gurcharan Singh, who performed seva of a historical shrine relating to the life of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, played a big role in nurturing Sikhi in this village.   In addition, Sikh Missionary College (Anandpur Sahib), Baba Channan Singh Suara and Principal Prem Singh Heerpur have continued to hold Gurmat related classes for the people which have helped many people.  Jaswinder Singh said that 1999 was a crucial year for the village as during this year, a large number of people became attached to bani and bana.
This area of the Shivalik Hills has been blessed with ‘charan-choh’ (presence and touch of the Holy Lotus feet) of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.  At Gurdwara Kataar Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh Ji blessed the father of Baba Sangat Singh Ji with a kataar.  Seva of this Gurdwara Sahib was organized by Baba Labh Singh Ji who handed the control of this shrine to the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee.  Sikh Sangat visits this historical shrine in big numbers during the annual nangar kirtan and on special monthly programs.
(Original story appeared in the Punjabi version of Ajit)
 
RECENT NEWS of Madhya Pradesh:
 

Old news, there are loads of converts in Madhya Pradesh and Bihar, UP. To the extent that BJP once demanded a ban on dalits converting to other religions citing conversion to Sikhi. Same thing happened in Pakistan where Hindu fundamentalist have created a divide between Sikhs and Hindus because of the latter embracing Sikhi en masse (by taking amrit, not sehajdhari form anymore)

Try looking outside of the small percentage of the Panth that are jathas, or sects and you will find many who are skeptical... for very good reasons.
Also, if DG is supposed to be a Universal Granth for ALL Sikhs, then why would such a large section be devoted to a message intended only for male leaders / kings? Why would that stuff not have been kept separate and specified who the intended audience were?  If on the other hand it was intended for everyone, all sikhs, then how do you explain the moral story that a Singhni is supposed to take from sexually explicit tales of women deceiving men with sex?  If DG was meant for all Sikhs, then Singhnis should also be warned about sexually deviant males.... 
And the moral points could easily have been said without using sexually explicit descriptions... if the intention was to impart moral messages, then there was not the need to use language so descriptive that for the vast majority of men, they would likely read it and be aroused...
But then you will use the common argument that one must be very highly spiritual advanced to understand it and not be affected by lust... but that makes no sense, because
1) someone that highly spiritually advanced would likely not need such a moral message as they would have surpassed kaam already, and
2) if one needs to be highly advanced spiritually to even understand it, then obviously DG was not meant to be read by the vast majority of Sikhs and hence, it could not have been a universal message for all Sikhs
3) Even more to the point, suggesting that it was only meant for (male) Kings and Leaders... 

So from your own description, how can DG be for ALL Sikhs?  And if it's not for ALL Sikhs, then how can it be revered as equal to SGGSJ, which IS UNIVERSAL message for ALL Sikhs??  See the contradiction here?  And it's these contradictions which cause many to look at Charitropakhyan with skepticism... because Gurbani is supposed to be universal with a message for ALL Sikhs.  

Nobody is disputing authentic banis (Jaap Sahib, Tav Prasad Savaiye etc) from Guru Gobind Singh Ji which are contained in DG at all... and that too even though he chose to keep them separate from SGGSJ.  
 
 

Does this tuk on panna 1084 really mean what some people say (i.e. keeping body intact and keeping kesh)?
Some people reject this simply because it was adressed to Muslims but Shabads in GGS are directed towards all of humanity not just the siddhs, yogis, muslims etc so thats not a valid argument in my opinion.
 
The translation fits in if we interpret it in this way, awaiting for other interpretations:
Guru Ji is redefining key concepts of Muslims in the shabad. Instead of going on Hajj; purify your heart, instead of praying 5 times a day without changing your personality; embrace 5 virtues etc.
According to the Hadith Muslims are told to remove their pubic and armpit hair in order to keep their body clean. Guru Sahib is saying the true Hadith should be to purify the mind (and not the body) and keeping the body intact.

So Sikhs were clueless for 230 years during earlier 9 Gurus times? Were they dumb and not aware of the nature of the world?
Mrsingh your writing style with the '=' is so recognisible. I remember you from SikhSangat. Welcome to SA

There are people who claim Sarbloh was written by Guru Gobind Singh (albeit in a previous incarnation). There used to be people who seriously believed the Sau Sakhi was written by Guru Gobind Singh about a century back (Kahan Singh Nabha talks about this). There are who ascribe many granths to Guru Gobind such as the Puranmasi Katha, Prem Sumarg, etc
Truth is that we are gullible as a community in general, just associate anything with the Gurus and you will have fools ready to pay millions for it or worship it. Anything with the title Pt 10 was seriously considered as a Dasam Pita Bani just because of the heading - and mind you, I personally know dozens of people who still think that way. This fact was severely misused by our enemies and corrupt people, read the Naveen Panth Parkash to read how the son of Sukha Singh Patna (Granthi) actually imitated Guru Gobind Singhs handwriting and sold the writings for lots of money.
But since most of the compositions seem to have been composed in the Gur Darbar the Dasam Granth seems to have had more general authenticity over the years. But that is one evolution, it is in this aspect that you can not deny the Amrit Sanchar proofs from within Bansawlinama. You say 'thats another topic' but the title says 'Bansawlinama on DG' and since Amrit Sanchar has no DG banis it is very important to notice a trend and actually understand why and how DG became so popular.
If people like Kesar Singh believed in the 1760s that DG was by Guru Gobind Singh they also on the other hand showed Amrit Sanchar had no Dasam Banis. The Mukatnama from around the same time equally gives no DG Bani in the Nitnem. Theres a dozen sources confirming about the Nitnem. (don't quote unauthentic Rehats such as the so called 1695 Nand Lal rehat for Jap Jaap - Pyara Padam himself published them and said they're all later writings and not of Nand Lal or the respected others)

DG gained more importance in the late 18th and early 19th century because that is when things such as DG Banis started appearing in the nitnem, and DG Banis were added to Pahul. Even if we accept the flawed source of Guru Kian Sakhian for 5 Banis (including DG) it means no source prior to 1790 mentions those Banis. Even the Prem Sumarg that is so admired on this forum does not give Dasam Banis for Amrit Sanchar, which leads me to accept that it might have been written somewhere before the 1780s.

DG did not gain prominence because it was Dasam Krit but because it was made part of Nitnem and Amrit Sanchar. And that is how our community got fooled by having our main ceremonies depend on the Dasam Granth - and even today people still do not dare to question DG because our main ceremonies depend on it. So it is a complicated issue and needs full assessment. You can't just say Kesar Singh accepts DG banis as Dasam Guru Krit and leave out the fact that despite existence of DG there was  no DG in Amrit Sanchar which shows a evolution to include more DG (this is not a conspiracy theory, it is a fact you can establish by reading and taking notes of all manuscripts and you will notice the evolution yourself).
 

The DG versus Sarbloh issues just reinforces the point I made earlier. Many normal Sikhs still do not know what the Dasam Granth is, but if you tell them that 3 out of 5 Amrit Sanchar Banis are from DG they will not dare to doubt its authenticity. Historically this is a factor that has (and continues to) play in its favor. Sarbloh does not have the advantage that it is used in daily and important Sikh ceremonies. Besides the Khalsa Mero Roop Hai Khaas it is mostly unknown to the Panth.
I will let you guys continue the discussion on Bansawlinama and Dasam Granth even though it is futile. Kesar quotes from DG and says 'Saakh M10' thus he is talking about DG or DG compositions.

Historically, early 1700 to 1760s literatue does not include Dasam Granth compositions in Nitnem. 
Same way Amrit Sanchar with 5 Banis is not corraborated by any autentic source. Guru Kian Sakhian (1790) says 5 Banis but it is a dubious book since there has been no study of its manuscript. Secondly, literature previous to Guru Kian Sakhian tends to mostly give Guru Granth Sahib Banis alone as Amrit Sanchar Banis.

Thus we see that Sikh rituals were mostly devoid of Dasam Granth influence in the early years after Guru Gobind Singh. It is mostly post 1775 that we start seeing a surge in the influence of Dasam Granth including in the nitnem and amrit sanchaar.
Do not post in this thread if you are unaware of historical Sikh sources and will just rant emotionally due to cognitive dissonance.