Narsingha

"why doesnt Niddar Singh write on this forum to provide official stance of Buddha dal uk with regards chatka. " check out the relevant sections on www.shastarvidiya.org

Why not change the topic of the thread to: "Why insecure self-righteous individuals have serious issues about other people's dietary habits" So not eating Chatka meat is now categorised as 'abuse' - yet buying meat from a 'Punjabi Jhatka Shop' is now acceptable (because N30Singh said so). F.Y.I. N3oSingh, 96 Crore Singh Sahib Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh is aware that not all Nihangs eat Chatka meat all the time, and has never given 'jhotiya' for such an act. Could Nihang Gurmant Singh please provide evidence WHEN and WHERE a Nihang was given 'jhotiya' for not eating Chatka meat. In addition, just because you happen to know Nihang Gurmant Singh (or as you put it, are 'very close' with him) does not mean that: a) he is the sole authority on Budha Dal Maryada that everything he says is representative of the Budha Dal Maryada c) his opinion is equal to the Jathedar of the Budha Dal There are MANY Nihang Singhs who have served Baba Santa Singh Ji, and Baba Surjit Singh...this is in no way an indicator of their depth of wisdom....some cannot even recite Japji Sahib and are just there to shoot people if the sh!t were to ever hit the fan. The reality is that Nihang Gurmant Singh represents a growing number of Nihang Singhs who (like the Haria Vela Nihangs) wishes to appease the sentiments of mainstream Sikhs who have certain expectations of what an ideal 'Nihang Singh' is. They will say what the audience wishes to hear - and will change their tune when in the company of Nihangs. The reality is that Nihang Maryada possesses a wide variation of codes of conduct - perhaps Nihang Gurmant Singh can explain all these to N30Singh - and he in turn can list them here. Also, Nihang Niddar Singh is the official JATHEDAR of the Budha Dal in the UK, and is recognised by the Budha Dal. Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh (who gave Nihang Niddar Singh the 'Jathedari' of the UK) is also aware of what goes on in the UK with regards to the Nihangs, and the websites, and has no problem with it. If anything, he encourages us to continue what we are doing. If this does not sit well with either yourself or Gurmant Singh, please lodge a formal complaint to the Budha Dal but try not to misinform the sangat. ..and please leave KFC and MacDonalds out of the discussions - everyone who has taste knows they dont serve meat, just flavoured cardboard :roll:

Why is the "Sikh Federation" (which is nothing more than I.S.Y.F rebadged to avoid being deported) utilising the Human Rights issue to promote their cause for Khalistan? It appears that they consider Human Rights abuse in Punjab/Delhi, etc as directly linked to Khalistan, when they are NOT. According to logic, this would mean that those Sikhs/Punjabis who suffered Human Rights abuse were ALL Khalistanis. Its downright lame to utilise the tragedy suffered by innocents to promote the cause for Khalistan - which incidentally is nothing more than a bunch of Jatts looking to rule over some more grass.

Bhai Mardana's lineage are the Marasis... ...strange that Khalsa Fauj put them in the same category as 'Kanjars'. You are a credit to the schools of your country.

drawoff, only few take logic to its extremes.... Inevitably when this occurs, reality is lost, and one enters the realm of make-belief.

aguptkaur ...now that this intense life-threatening issue seems to be resolved (at least in your mind), what should we do? How should we deal with these people who are not following 'gurmat' and 'bani? Given the grave situation at hand, perhaps you can suggest some follow up strategy.

aguptkaur, if someone wishes to dance, how does that affect YOUR 'bhagti' and 'spirituality'?

Well, until the Kaliban come into power, long live dancing!

He refers to the concept of dogma...

Even Ken Livingston, the Mayor of London, is calling 2012 the dawning of the Golden Age.... ....because he hopes the Olympic Games will come to London that year!

The article here http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20021210/main7.htm states that: "The Dharam Prachar Committee (DPC) of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) has declared that Nirmal and Udasi sects were an integral part of Sikhism" Khalsa Fauj, your own 'Panthic' leaders have stated that Udasis are Sikhs. Are you suggesting that: a) the SGPC-elected Jathedar of the Akal Takht is bringing Sikhs into 'brahmanvad'? the 'Panth' is run by someone else other than the SGPC? c) the Akal Takht - the mainstream Sikhs seat of authority, is wrong? d) the Akal Takht is 'anti-Gurmat'?

..how many sikhs does it take to arrange a conference?

Mehtab Singh, the point you appear to have missed is that everyone has their own reasons for taking/not taking Amrit. It is human nature to justify one's actions (both good and bad) to appease their conscience (should they possess one). No one has the right to dictate terms to another based on their own perception - the Gurus never did so, and we are certainly in no position to do so either. A choice is offered, the decision is left to the individual. A person can be committed to Sikhi (and for that matter Akal Purakh) without taking Amrit. No one has a monopoly on Akal Purakh...thats the ideology of fanatics, religious politicians and tyrants. If you read the posts here, no one is undermining or 'belittling' Amrit...by stating that it is a CHOICE, that does not devalue the glory of Amrit. Enjoy your Friday, and have a good weekend...

sexy_singh, you may not be aware, but we already have some Sikhs who are very busy doing exactly that - they are attempting to do 'wicked sewa' on such buildings in the name of 'preserving Sikh heritage'. By the time they finish their 'sewa', these Gurdwaras will become simply giant bathrooms with pleasant background music, paved from floor to ceiling with bright green bathroom tiles. Not forgetting the amazing super-duper filtration system donated by some rich businessmen (in the name of even MORE 'sewa') which will 'purify' the 'Sarovar'; we can look forward to 'good clean water'. Oops, almost forgot to mention the blue telfon-laden paint (excellent for waterproofing), Dulux white emulsion paint (great for covering up unsightly frescos, mosaics and murals), the 'solid gold' panels (...which are mysteriously turning GREEN - one for the alchemists to check out!!), and last but not least - cheap cement!!! This line has to be a classic... "If the Golden Temple is chosen as one of the new Seven Wonders of the World, it will put Sikhs and the Golden Temple on the global map, with the combination of World-Wide television exposure, lasting tourism and image benefits." Image benefits....are you takin the pi$$? Everytime Sikhs manage to recover from their last bout with plastic surgery on their 'image', along comes another event where self-proclaimed 'Panthic Gursikhs' either bomb a plane, kill people over tables and chairs, kill their relatives in the name of honour, or start riots over some play that even the critics had dismissed as shyte. It appears some 'Sikhs' have better methods of putting Sikhs on the 'global map' - and its quick and efficient too! Is there much point voting for a giant bathroom (that is slowly sinking) in the middle of a gigantic swimming pool? Where (if lucky), one may hear scripture being sung to 1960's Bollywood tunes and where the 'Head Granthi' appears to be sacked on a weekly basis... Once again, no offence intended, just revealing the glory of the 'Panth' as it stands today. ...its Friday...perhaps its time I treated myself to a Crunchie!

Yogi was not to keen to be associated with Baba Virsa Das (known also as Baba Virsa Singh) of Gobind Sadan. Many prominant 3HO speak of Baba Virsa Das being the individual who taught Yogi the aspects of Yoga. Interestingly Baba Virsa Das does not appear to associate with his former 'shagird' either, so perhaps there was a mutual parting of ways. I'm hoping to visit Baba Virsa Das this in late Spring to clarify this. Perhaps this may turn out to be yet another can of worms

Interesting article... Obituary Yogi Bhajan — a tireless crusader Prabhjot Singh Tribune News Service Chandigarh, October 7 Harbhajan Singh Khalsa, known as Yogi Bhajan to hundreds of thousands of devotees worldwide, died at his home in Espanola, New Mexico, in the USA yesterday. He died of heart failure. He was 75. A pioneer in many fields, he established permanent institutions organised spectacular events and produced a prolific body of teachings. It was Yogi Bhajan who had set up Miri Piri School (American Sikhs) in Amritsar besides a naturopathy centre at Anandpur Sahib (Ropar) during the tercentenary celebrations of the birth of the Khalsa. He used to frequent India and Punjab almost every year. The first to publicly teach Kundalini yoga, when he arrived in the West in 1968, he announced he had come to the West “to create teachers, not to gain studentsâ€. A devout Sikh, his inspiration and example motivated thousands to embrace the Sikh way of life. Through his personal efforts, Sikh dharma was legally incorporated and officially recognised as a religion in the USA in 1971. In 1971, in acknowledgement of his extraordinary impact of spreading the universal message of Sikhism, the then president of the SGPC, Sant Charan Singh, called him the Siri Singh Sahib, Chief Religious and Administrative Authority for Western Hemisphere. He was given the responsibility to create a Sikh ministry in the West by Akal Takht. He was honored with the title Bhai Sahib by Akal Takht in 1974. Born Harbhajan Singh Puri on August 26, 1929, in the part of India that became Pakistan in 1948, he was the son of a doctor. He spent his youth in Dalhousie and attended a Catholic convent school. When he became a US citizen in 1976, Yogi Bhajan changed his name legally to Harbhajan Singh Khalsa Yogiji. When he was just eight ,he began his yogic training with an enlightened teacher, Sant Hazara Singh, who proclaimed him to be a master of kundalini yoga. During the turmoil of Partition, he led his village of 7000 people, near Lahore, 325 miles on foot to safety in New Delhi, where he arrived with only clothes on his back. Soon he was able to continue his education at Punjab University where he excelled in debate and was a star athlete, playing both hockey and soccer, and earning the name “China wall†from his opponents. After graduating in economics, he began Indian Government service with the Revenue Department, and supervised the creation of the IRS building in New Delhi. Shortly thereafter, he moved to the customs. He married Inderjit Kaur in 1952. They had two sons, Ranbir Singh and Kulbir Singh, and a daughter, Kamaljit Kaur. Throughout his academic career and government service he continued to teach yoga to people from all walks of life. In September of 1968, he left India for Canada to teach yoga at Toronto University, carrying a letter of recommendation from Sir James George, Canadian High Commissioner in New Delhi, who had been his student. After two months in Canada, he flew to Los Angeles for a weekend visit. From humble beginnings, teaching first at the East West Cultural Centre and then in a student’s furniture store in West Hollywood, “The Yogi†was like a magnet. Students flocked to his classes. Soon he was teaching at colleges and universities, including Claremont and UCLA, and accepting invitations to teach in other cities. In July of 1969 the non-profit 3HO Foundation (Healthy, Happy, Holy Organisation) was incorporated in California. 3HOs service to humanity is through kundalini yoga, meditation and the science of humanology which improves physical wellbeing, as well as deepening spiritual awareness. In 1994 3HO became a member of the United Nations as an NGO (non-governmental-organisation) in Consultative Status (Roster) with the Economic and Social Council, representing women’s issues, promoting human rights and providing education in alternative systems of medicine. Over 200 books have been written based on his teachings, as well as a wealth of CD’s, videos, paintings, and sculpture. He himself wrote over 30 books including “The Teachings of Yogi Bhajanâ€, “Furmaan Khalsaâ€, “Master’s Touchâ€, and “Mind and its 81 Facetsâ€. In 1989 Yogi Bhajan met President Mikhail Gorbachev and established addiction treatment programs in Russia based on the 3HO Super Health model. Currently a pilot project of Super Health is being formed by the Punjab Government in India. source: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20041008/punjab1.htm

Without spending too long discussing this... Are you now suggesting that when Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji 'asked' people to take Amrit at Anandpur Sahib that EVERYONE took Amrit? (ie, because according to you it was 'necessary'). By your analogy, those who did not take Amrit (eg, Bhai Kanhaiya, Sewa Das, Banda Bahadur, etc.) found the tenth Guru's wishes to be 'less relevant'. In other words, according to your views, they must have considered the Guru's Amrit to be 'unneccesary' - because they did not take Amrit. Why would the Guru then entrust such non-Khalsa Sikhs (who apparently found the Guru 'less relevant') with sewa of propagating/protecting Dharam? In the example of Bhai Kanhaiya, he even went on to lay the foundations of the great Sewa Panthi order...despite the fact that he never took Amrit. Amrit has a place in Sikhi, however, what is its purpose and role? Is it mandatory or optional? According to mainstream 'Panthic' Sikhi and the Sikh Rehit Maryada it is mandatory, otherwise you are not a Sikh (of any kind). Ironically, the SGPC consider Udasis as Sikhs which appears to contradict the edicts of their own Rehit Maryada - the main reason for SGPC to consider Udhasis as Sikhs is so they can legally take over all Udhasi shrines. To give a balanced view, according to Sanatan Sikhi, Amrit is not mandatory, and whether one receives it depends on their perceptions, experience and ultimately their 'Karams' and 'Guru Kirpa'. If one does not receive Amrit, they are not seen as being any lesser (or greater for that matter) than those that are Amritdhari. Btw, everyone has a right to a EXPRESS opinion (regardless of how great or crap it may be), but its only the Almighty who has the power to pass judgement (ie, hand out punishment or pass sentence). We are in no position to judge anyone when we are alive - and even the Almighty who is in a position to judge only does so after we are dead....

Regarding this statement that leans towards emotional blackmail in order to get people to take Amrit, one may ask several questions, one of which could be: Did Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji force everyone (all Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, etc) to take Amrit? Yes/No? If yes, then why do we have records of non-Khalsa Sikhs who never took Amrit, yet accompanied the Guru, and were considered Sikhs? Some were even given special tasks to carry out at the behest of the Guru himself, eg, Bhai Kanhaiya, Sewa Das, Banda Bahadur, etc. If not, then why not allow people to make their own decisions as to whether to take Amrit or not? Why should mainstream 'Panthic' institutions state that one may consider themselves as 'Sikh' only if they have taken Amrit (reference, 'Sikh Rehit Maryada' on www.sgpc.net). Not every individual is designed to become a warrior, or poet, or musician, doctor, nurse, mortician, Canadian (?) etc, in a similar manner, not everyone wishes to take Amrit., or is capable of taking that path. Indeed, their destiny may lie elsewhere...there are many paths to God, not all of them clad in Sarbloh. Some may wish to see Amrit as their eventual goal, but whether this transpires with the passing of time is dependent upon their karams and Guru Kirpa. Even reality proves that taking Amrit does not turn an individual into a saint, if anything, this gives them a licence to delve into arenas of disgust and still retain an impression of being a saint. We are all aware of "Uncles", "Aunties", collegues, friends, associates, etc., who have not taken Amrit, but have the hearts of saints (Sikh and non-Sikh). Such people appear to be closer to what a 'Sikh' is according to the edicts of the Gurus than some who have taken Amrit - this is reality. They are examples of how a person surrenders the ego (as suggested earlier) without Amrit, and takes on the role of pursuing/promoting/nurturing Dharam... (on the other hand, no one is suggesting that all Amritdhari Sikhs are nasty or arent humble...although some people confuse the concept of being "direct and honest" with having an "ego problem") However, if an individual who has taken Amrit and decides to follow such a path, then this task should be done to the best of their abilities, and with honesty to themselves. Others can make up their own minds (good or bad), about such an individual for this will have no bearing on the relationship between that individual and God. Our account is ultimately with the Almighty. With regards to men who have taken Amrit, the trimming of their beard (or bum-fluff in the case of some) is considered highly taboo (...in this regard everyone is in agreement). The punishment for this varies according to what samparda, institution or maryada the individual adheres to. Even in this case, forgiveness is never out of the question..... According to Sanatan Sikh rehit involving women, the rules vary to take into account reality....but thats for another thread.

The painting is been claimed to be done in the 'Marwar' style from Rajastan(?) and has supposedly been dated to 1770-1780. However, some believe it to be as recent as the late 19th century. It is in a collection owned by S.S. Hitkari in Delhi and is depicting Guru Maharaj making his way to Deccan.

...the leader of the borg is a woman. That would explain their desire to control everything, and everyone

You are just laying down more poison for yourself. Are you now suggesting that Gatka is a martial heritage rather than the invention of the British Raj that it really is? What makes you think Gurbani is not utilised within Shastar Vidiya? A vast majority of the techniques taught in Shastar Vidiya, indeed the higher Pentras also take their inspiration from Dasam Guru Durbar (and other Sanatan texts). If Dasam Guru Durbar isnt Gurbani, then what is? Seeing that you have been a student of 'Taksal' and Teji, can they and other Gatka masters substantiate their techniques using Gurbani too, and perhaps trace their styles to mythology/history/gurbani? Bhagti has many forms, and isnt isolated to an individual sitting down meditating on Naam. Shastar Vidiya is a form of bhagti in itself, as is Raag Vidiya, as is Ayurveda, etc. Dasam Guru Durbar also speaks highly of chatka, marijuana, hunting, etc. If you are so keen to quote from Dasam Guru Durbar with regards to the 'nisani' of what entails a Sikh, then perhaps you shouldnt ignore those passages that praise marijuana too. Dasam Guru Durbar speaks of "Treh Mudra", kesh, kard and kachera....kangha and kara are not mentioned, and are assumed to be worn already (as a consequence of kyshatriya rehit). Sarbloh Guru Durbar even speaks of non-martial Khalsa who do not wear the Ks as you know them. The SGPC and mainstream Sikhism states that to be considered a Sikh you have to wear the 5 Ks. Sanatan Sikhi suggests that a Sikh is one understands, contemplates, practices and propagates Dharam - hence the concept of Muslim Sikhs, Hindu Sikhs, Christian Sikhs, 'Keshadhari' Sikhs, 'Monay' Sikhs, 'Sehajdhari' (non Khalsa) Sikhs, etc. Sikhi is a universal concept, not confined to 'Amritdhari' 5K-wearing Sikhs. If you disagree, then that is your choice. gurpreet_singh, its evident that when you get caught with your pants down (metaphorially speaking), you start accusing people of "twisting" your posts and start lashing out by random accusations. Its usually wise to do your research before delving into any subject. Its clear you havent done any at all. No one is forcing you to believe what traditional Sikhs believe, or indeed practice...live and let live. No one is preaching...regardless of what transpires with regards to your beliefs, Sikhi will flourish...

Well, gurpreet_singh, we are still waiting for the infamous proof of Teji beating Nihang Niddar Singh. This mystical video seems to exist yet has not been made available. It appears you brought up the topic of Shastar Vidiya, and now you wish to become 'philosophical'..please make up your mind. The Taksal and Teji both teach GATKA, although some morons (they can be called as such because they cant tell the difference) are passing this off as "Shastar Vidiya" ever since the term became known within mainstream Sikh circles. We have already gone over the non-battlefield uses of cannabis on this website countless times. Sanatan Sikhi doesnt revolve around cannabis, chatka and nihangs alone, so get over it.

sexy_singh, read (not watch) the Kamasutra..... Also, you appear to have grossly misinterpreted the point I was making, nonetheless, I never suggested that any woman is "an empty rhetorical thing". I stated that a woman is in fact superior to a man according to both Indian and Khalsa Kyshatriya traditions :roll: If you are so worried about this concept (considering the lengthy posts you have adopted), perhaps you should get married as soon as possible. Then take it from there rather than worry about the consequences on an internet forum...

Congratulations on turning vegetarian.... ....some people are predators, some are prey :wink:

Firstly, rather than whining on the net and spewing a load of bollocks, please turn up to one of the Akharas and see the art for yourself. If you have not seen the art, then what possible reason is thare which makes your opinion even remotely valid? If you have seen the art, at least come up with a valid critique, or at least pretend you have some intelligence and provide some evidence for your claims. As yet the individuals qualified to teach the art other than Niddar Singh are either dead, too old, hard to find, or have not come forward into the public limelight as yet. Those that have claimed to know the art have been spoken to, and as yet, no one has refuted the art. Even martial arts magazines have begun to publish articles on Shastar Vidiya and have given it the thumbs up. It is know being recognised as the Babuji (grandfather) of ALL asian martial arts. If you know of other teachers of Shastar Vidiya (not Gatka), please let everyone know. Secondly, everyone who is aware of Shastar Vidiya (not Gatka being passed off as Shastar Vidiya) knows that a lot has been lost. Even Nihang Niddar Singh mentions this, so did his Gurdev, and those who are learning. What remains we are trying our best to preserve (...without the help of mainstream Sikh institutions who appear to hinder us rather than assist us). Finally, with regards to cannabis and its uses (on and off the battlefield), are you now seeking to be given a crash course on sikhawareness in Ayurveda and western alternative/orthodox medicine? Why dont you do a search online for cannabis and its applications (medical and otherwise). You dont have to be a Sikh to understand its use. In addition, let us know WHERE you are learning from (as you state you are learning Shastar Vidiya) and from WHOM, and WHAT exactly you are learning. We can always pop over and compare techniques, history, maryada, etc.