The Bhatts (or Bhatrai Sikhs)

[shaheediyan]

First thing you've said that I agree with.

Well done.

[ipledgeblue]

‘The Sikhism preached by the people such as Khem Singh Bedi and Avatar Singh Vahiria is difficult to envisage today, so comprehensive has been their defeat by the Tat Khalsa. For them Sikhism tolerated variety and upheld the right of Sikhs to participate in folk religion. Caste was maintained and idol worship was tolerated. There were different forms of marriage for different castes and different rituals could be practised by various members of the Panth. All manners of customs, such as those involving astrology, horoscopes and incantation, were acceptable. Visits to the sacred shrines of Hindus and Muslims as well as those of the Guru’s were entirely approved. Sanatan leaders might not follow these customs themselves, but certainly they were prepared to tolerate them in others. They were part of the immense variety which characterized the world they had known and the world they hoped would continue. All this was anathema to the Tat Khalsa. Sikhism could not possibly be as broad and as tolerant as Sanatan Sikhs believed.’

‘Sikhism’, by Hew McLeod, 1997, Pa. 77

‘One time the complete being [Guru Gobind Singh] said these words:

“In a hundred years my Panth [Khalsa] will reach adulthood. As adulthood increases and [Panth] matures, many are the vices that are found. Which vices?

All castes will force their way into the Sikh nation, even the Malesh [filthy]. All the bad people will force their way into the Sikh nation. They will look like Sikhs but their actions will be of thieves, deceivers and Malesh. To look at, they will be Sikhs but, their actions will be of evil with the forbidden five [5 cults, ie. the Dhir Malia, Ram Rais, Masands, and Minas]. Those, cutting their hair who have become apostate [from the Khalsa faith] will have relations, and believe in the five Pirs [Muslim holy men]. Not trustworthy, misers, known as slanderers, evil persons, highway men, Guruless, speakers of evil words, etc., such [characters] in appearance they will seem as intelligent wise Sikhs”.’

(‘Rehitnameh’, Piara Singh Padam, Pa.121-122)

interesting blog:

http://kamallarosekaur.wordpress.com/2008/...f-jatt-descent/

besides shouldn't we be talking about bhatra sikhs in this thread?

http://www.bhatra.co.uk/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhatra

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bhatra

[shaheediyan]

Still trying to pull a rabbit out of the hat, but all you can seem to manage is a frog...

McLeods theory is fine, it reflects a picture of the said time, that and what Sikhi should be are 2 different things. In any case the caste reference that he has mentioned refers to use of Brahmins etc in ritual i.e. weddings, which some Sikhs maintained. Don't forget that during Snatan period their were Sikh heroes who defied these retracted trends like the Nirankari and Namdhari Babai.

The 2nd quote means nothing, it is a rehit, which may or may not be attributable to 10th Master. In any case "All castes will force their way into the Sikh nation", there wsa no need for force, as 10th Master with his own hand invited and initiated all castes into the Sikh nation.

And if you want to dwell on the rest of the rehit, it indicates in 100 years certain castes will force their way into the Khalsa and their will be many vices and many fake Sikhs and fake Sikh practices.

Does this not then fit in perfectly with the desciption of the Panth Mcleod has painted over 100 years later, which you seem to be justifying?

Could you be contradicting yourself by lifting random quotes from the blog you have given a link to without even reading them properly...

[Matheen]

A mistake made not just by yourself, Londondajatt, but by Niddar Singh as well is to believe that because something has precedent in the past, it is indicative of what is acceptable in Sikhi.

Read the book "Nau Rattan" which describes the lives of the unbroken lineage of Sants from Bhai Daya Singh Ji right up to Sant Isher Singh Ji Rarewale. Then compare their Sikhi to the one McLeod portrays.

If you don't want to go to that length, just read some Gurbani from Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Granth Ji. If you really want to know what Guru Ji's Sikhi is then go to the source not dodgy 'historians'.

[shaheediyan]

Matheen, we need to be careful here, McLeod is not necessarily educating us as to what Guru's Sikhi was, but rather how different types of Sikhs lived in the post Guru period - he does clearly state in his works that Sikhi has been an evolving tradition, and there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion, he is an historian. Same goes for Nihang Niddar Singh, most of what he states is form an historical perspective based on eye witness accounts or written records (as well as oral traditions), but many people who are intent on believing Sikhi was some puritan, one path, one Sikh community, obviously have issues with the truth.

I'm just saying, don't confuse actual trends in history (and those who state them as such) with the correct understanding of the Sikh marg.

[ipledgeblue]

Still trying to pull a rabbit out of the hat, but all you can seem to manage is a frog...

McLeods theory is fine, it reflects a picture of the said time, that and what Sikhi should be are 2 different things. In any case the caste reference that he has mentioned refers to use of Brahmins etc in ritual i.e. weddings, which some Sikhs maintained. Don't forget that during Snatan period their were Sikh heroes who defied these retracted trends like the Nirankari and Namdhari Babai.

The 2nd quote means nothing, it is a rehit, which may or may not be attributable to 10th Master. In any case "All castes will force their way into the Sikh nation", there wsa no need for force, as 10th Master with his own hand invited and initiated all castes into the Sikh nation.

And if you want to dwell on the rest of the rehit, it indicates in 100 years certain castes will force their way into the Khalsa and their will be many vices and many fake Sikhs and fake Sikh practices.

Does this not then fit in perfectly with the desciption of the Panth Mcleod has painted over 100 years later, which you seem to be justifying?

Could you be contradicting yourself by lifting random quotes from the blog you have given a link to without even reading them properly...

not at all. i have red the quotes many times.

well mcleod is also saying that the sanatan leaders didn't practise all the various traditions themselves but tolerated people doing them. Is this the case now, or are leaders now trying to force their own views onto people?

The thing about the castes, I am sure views were different even in harmandir sahib and Akal Takht before the Tat khalsa singh sabhias and SGPC peoples took over.

[shaheediyan]

"The thing about the castes, I am sure views were different even in harmandir sahib and Akal Takht before the Tat khalsa/ Singh Sabhias and SGPC peoples took over."

Yes, before SGPC took over, the administration wasn't a Jatt monopoly, which is quite ironic as the British handed the keys of Akal Takht over to a decsendant of Jassa Singh Ramgaria, SGPC/Singh Sabiyas soon corrected that, they should make you proud, something else to add to your proud list of Jatts.

In any case there is a difference between tolerance and agreement. No one here is in agreement with your trying to reconcile maan in jaat with Gurmat. But we are all tolerant to your presence.

[shaheediyan]

Here you go London da Jatt, something educational for you, maybe this contains that most elusive "Jatt maryada" you are talking about, as a bonus it also contains Tarkhaan maryada, lol. The mysteries are solved!

[ipledgeblue]

lol yes i watched that video long ago.

[ipledgeblue]

"The thing about the castes, I am sure views were different even in harmandir sahib and Akal Takht before the Tat khalsa/ Singh Sabhias and SGPC peoples took over."

Yes, before SGPC took over, the administration wasn't a Jatt monopoly, which is quite ironic as the British handed the keys of Akal Takht over to a decsendant of Jassa Singh Ramgaria, SGPC/Singh Sabiyas soon corrected that, they should make you proud, something else to add to your proud list of Jatts.

In any case there is a difference between tolerance and agreement. No one here is in agreement with your trying to reconcile maan in jaat with Gurmat. But we are all tolerant to your presence.

so you are tolerant with someone's maan in their jaat?

i know the administration wasn't a jatt monopoly, but i was talking about caste tolerance, what were the views before SGPC?

[Mithr]

so you are tolerant with someone's maan in their jaat?

Just curious London da Jatt, but why do you do Maan in being a Jatt? It can't be anything to do with bravery or anakh and Izzat as I've already shown here that it was Sikhi not Jattness that has anakh, Izzat and bravery. So why this maan in being Jatt?

[ipledgeblue]

because jatts also have annakh, izzat and bravery, or can you disprove this?

"Just curious London da Jatt, but why do you do Maan in being a Jatt?"

because i feel like it, i do hope no-one has a problem, it also helped me to get away from extremist boss sangat, and from being brainwashed by them. As a jatt, i can stand up and not listen to people trying to force their brand of sikhi on me. Being a jatt is totally against their brand of sikhi, i feel like a rebel and loving it, and one has to follow sikh tribalism to follow their sikh"ism".

[Matheen]

lol! what is boss sangat?

So it's all about feeling superior to 'them'?

If that's what you learned from Guru Ji, then go for it. If it's your own mat then ask Guru Ji what they say regarding this subject.

[ipledgeblue]

no where did u get this supriority stereotype from?

look i meant saying jatt is against them, therefore i say it, simple as that. no superiority involved, after all, for them being sikh or even amrit-dhari is superior to other human beings such as hindus, and also some of them have their superior jatha amrit that is superior cos it gets them to sachkhand lol

i remember the last speaker they had at brunel in boss sikhi month. He was trying to make it look like other religions can only go to a heaven and only sikhs can get to sachkhand. He also did some drawings using lines to show this haha

of course his story changed when some kali in the audience questioned him. Also they have been selling autoiography of bhai ranbir singh at these events and on their site. kind of makes it obvious what kinda sikhi they follow lol

[unbreakable]

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[unbreakable]

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[shaheediyan]

The ideal is about unification, welcome, sharing, serving, remembering, learning, seeing Gods light and wisdom in all irrelevant of religion - hence Bhagat Bani and above all truth - whic is not not restricted to any one group.

[Matheen]

Also they have been selling autoiography of bhai ranbir singh at these events and on their site. kind of makes it obvious what kinda sikhi they follow lol

They also have jeevans of Mahapurkhs from varied Sampardaye.......Why not join them so you can make changes?

We have to be careful not become as judgemental as those we despise :wink:

[SURYADEV]

I believe JATTS are the superior race in India. The whole Khalsa Panth rests on a Jatts shoulders , hence the reason they are so strong. Even Shiva Ji had the courtesy to raise Jatts above himself ie. His jatt'n hair!

God's hukum was that after the masands failed to look after the gurudwaras he has to give the responsibility to a group of people who will rise to the challenge and resist the temptation for putting their hands into the golak; as a result he willed that Jatts should dominate the SGPC.

Jai , Jai SuperJatts!!

PS: Almost all critism of Jatts are by all other lower castes who due to their lack of good karam were not born as Jatts.

[ipledgeblue]

lol hahaha joka

[ipledgeblue]

so what kind of "Sikhi" do you believe you are following?

not any raagmala rejecting sikhi thats for sure hehe

[shaheediyan]

Yes very funny, there is never a shortage of Jesters and bufoons on this forum. I find jokes at the expense of God, Guru and the Khalsa sickening. If you wish to be humerous then please share jokes about your own family, not mine.

This is the perfect example of why the Panth is in a shambles - because of idiots like this having no sharda or dar of Guru. Funny you should mention Masands, they too would have had this mocking attitude at the expense of Sikhi as you, let's hope you don't suffer the same fate.

[ipledgeblue]

I heard Guru Hargobind Sahib ji also had a jester

I saw less of " I find jokes at the expense of God, Guru and the Khalsa sickening. " and more of what history truly is, and is hidden by modern sikh organisations, the way of telling it differs between people. Maybe it is more sarcasm than jokes?

[unbreakable]

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[Mithr]

Yes very funny, there is never a shortage of Jesters and bufoons on this forum. I find jokes at the expense of God, Guru and the Khalsa sickening. If you wish to be humerous then please share jokes about

This is the perfect example of why the Panth is in a shambles - because of idiots like this having no sharda or dar of Guru. Funny you should mention Masands, they too would have had this mocking attitude at the expense of Sikhi as you, let's hope you don't suffer the same fate.

I agree with you. I'm the kind of guy who likes jokes. But as a Sikhs we need to have enough Sharda and Dar to never make a joke which involves the Gurus or Sikhi. Sikhs now days not only lack Sharda but also Dar.