Is SGGS the True Guru ?

[golestan]

Be Name Khoda

Baba Nanak Shah (ra) is mentioned in Ismaili ginans as an Ismaili saint. In India the Ismaili tradition is called Satpanth. At that period Nimatollahis and Ismailis were intertwined organisations with many of its member having double affliliations. The title Shah is part of the titles of the Nimatollahi order. He went to Mekka something ONLY Muslims can do.

[Xylitol]

Wasn't he prevented from entering the Kaaba? And then while outside mecca, lay down with feet pointed towards it. Which is when the famous events of Mecca spinning around happened.

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

Xylitol wrote:

Wasn't he prevented from entering the Kaaba? And then while outside mecca, lay down with feet pointed towards it. Which is when the famous events of Mecca spinning around happened.

That's new now...NO he entered the city of Mekka that's what your accounts say.

[shaheediyan]

Shah Ji,

I think comparing Ismaili’ism to Islam is more akin to comparing Ram Raheem to Sikhism i.e. they are both tiny cults not accepted by traditional or modern/mainstream facets of the said faiths.

Your obsession with Ginans is funny – if the Ginans mention Guru Nanak, does that not make them older than the start of Sikhism? Then how is that Sikhi has “borrowed†the said terms, is not possible that it may be the other way around?

Ginans have been an on-going process being added to hear and there over many years by various people. They do not compare to the word of God – Gur-shabd. This does not mean hey do not contain truth, much religion orientated poetry does, but they in my opinion are not divine, so not comparable.

In any case, even if the words and traditions you mention did exist before Sikhi, so what? So did the Indic traditions which form the nucleus of the Sikh path - of Kirtan (Raag) and Simran, it does not mean that they are any less relevant? In fact they were perfected by Guru Sahiban.

Quit you goodness gracious me obsession, you are simlpy creating more division, you have no idea of how to educate or discuss in a civilised fashion, you are only good at offending and consistently giving us a masterclass on arrogance.

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

Shaheediyan wrote:

Shah Ji,

I think comparing Ismaili’ism to Islam is more akin to comparing Ram Raheem to Sikhism i.e. they are both tiny cults not accepted by traditional or modern/mainstream facets of the said faiths.

Your obsession with Ginans is funny – if the Ginans mention Guru Nanak, does that not make them older than the start of Sikhism? Then how is that Sikhi has “borrowed” the said terms, is not possible that it may be the other way around?

Ginans have been an on-going process being added to hear and there over many years by various people. They do not compare to the word of God – Gur-shabd. This does not mean hey do not contain truth, much religion orientated poetry does, but they in my opinion are not divine, so not comparable.

In any case, even if the words and traditions you mention did exist before Sikhi, so what? So did the Indic traditions which form the nucleus of the Sikh path - of Kirtan (Raag) and Simran, it does not mean that they are any less relevant? In fact they were perfected by Guru Sahiban.

Quit you goodness gracious me obsession, you are simlpy creating more division, you have no idea of how to educate or discuss in a civilised fashion, you are only good at offending and consistently giving us a masterclass on arrogance.

1. The highest Sunni institution, al Azhar, considers Ismailis to be Muslims and most maraja also do. It is Wahabis who don't consider them Muslims. So your argument about Ismailism being to Islkam what Ram Rahim is to Sikhism is void.

2. The Ginans are a collection of different mystical poems written by different authors during different periods. Most predate Sikhism others are contemporary to Sikhism. The words and institutions I have mentionned existed already before Sikhism emerged.

3. Interesting you mention raags because before the Agha Khan III the Ginans were played in raags too.

You might want to listen to this old recording of a ginan (forgive the quality):

http://soyouz.ismaili.net/real/ginanmusic/santok03.ra

Here is the text to the ginan:

SATGUR MILIYAA MUNE AAJ SAYYEDAA IMAAM BEGUM

ejee satgur miliyaa mune aaj, aana(n)d hu(n) paamee

satgur miliyaa taare dukhaja ttaalliyaajee

sarve saariyaa daaseenaa kaaj...aana(n)d.....................1

Today I have found the True Guide and as a result I have attained joy and happiness. When I found the True Guide, all my sorrows vanished. The Lord fulfilled this maid servant's wishes or made her tasks easy.

ejee kaaj daaseenaa sarve saariyaajee

darshan deeyaa mahaaraaj....aana(n)d.........................2

He fulfilled all the wishes of this maid servant. The Majesty granted the Spiritual Vision.

ejee darshan dekhiyaa man santokhiyaajee

mahaapad paamee chhu(n) raaj...aana(n)d......................3

When I had this Vision my heart found satisfaction and contentment. As a result, I have attained the kingdom of the most exalted state.

ejee mahaapad keri bhaai vaat chhe nyaareejee

koi na jaanne e kaaj....aana(n)d.............................4

Matters pertaining to the exalted state are very mysterious. Nobody knows it's reality.

ejee jo jaanne so nar navkha(n)d maanne jee

ghatto ghatt dekhe mahaaraaj...aana(n)d......................5

The one who knows it, enjoys the nine continents(or heavens). In every heart he sees that Majesty.

ejee ghatto ghatt dekhe taare ek karee lekhe jee

nar nakla(n)kee kero raaj...aana(n)d........................6

When he sees every heart he regards all as one entity, and indeed he sees the kingdom of the spotless master (Hazarat Ali).

ejee kahet imaam begum sunno moraa bhaaijee

alee nabee chhe sirtaaj.........aana(n)d.....................7

Imaam Begum says: Listen o my brother! Hazarat Ali and Hazarat Nabi Muhammad(s.a.s.) are our lords.

Is it just me or this sound like something familiar?

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[shaheediyan]

"1. The highest Sunni institution, al Azhar, considers Ismailis to be Muslims and most maraja also do. It is Wahabis who don't consider them Muslims. So your argument about Ismailism being to Islkam what Ram Rahim is to Sikhism is void."

Lol, what a great independant source you have stated, an institution that was actually created by the 'conquering' Ismaili tribes! Obviously the latter Sunni rulers have held a soft spot by way of thanks!

Actually, were the most prominent Islamic schools during the 'conquering' Fatimid period not in Baghdad? Did the all the foremost Islamic scholars of the time not look at the Ismailis as a heretical sect - as was noted in declarations made by the 'highest Muslim authorities' during that period?

Before you rant on about Sunni lies, were famous shia scholars like Sharif Al-Murtada also not part of these declarations????

"2. The Ginans are a collection of different mystical poems written by different authors during different periods. Most predate Sikhism others are contemporary to Sikhism. The words and institutions I have mentionned existed already before Sikhism emerged. "

I could ask you to provide hard evidence and independant date verification, but it's unimportant, irrelevant of whether or not you are right. In any case the Ginans are a collection of random mystical Islamic poems by various people at different times from different regions, which were obviously highly influenced by the religions,language, culture and MUSIC of their time.

"3. Interesting you mention raags because before the Agha Khan III the Ginans were played in raags too."

Lol, thanks for providing an excellent example of 'Islam' using Indic traditions to propogate it's message.

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

Shaheediyan wrote:

"1. The highest Sunni institution, al Azhar, considers Ismailis to be Muslims and most maraja also do. It is Wahabis who don't consider them Muslims. So your argument about Ismailism being to Islkam what Ram Rahim is to Sikhism is void."

Lol, what a great independant source you have stated, an institution that was actually created by the 'conquering' Ismaili tribes! Obviously the latter Sunni rulers have held a soft spot by way of thanks!

Actually, were the most prominent Islamic schools during the 'conquering' Fatimid period not in Baghdad? Did the all the foremost Islamic scholars of the time not look at the Ismailis as a heretical sect - as was noted in declarations made by the 'highest Muslim authorities' during that period?

Before you rant on about Sunni lies, were famous shia scholars like Sharif Al-Murtada also not part of these declarations????

"2. The Ginans are a collection of different mystical poems written by different authors during different periods. Most predate Sikhism others are contemporary to Sikhism. The words and institutions I have mentionned existed already before Sikhism emerged. "

I could ask you to provide hard evidence and independant date verification, but it's unimportant, irrelevant of whether or not you are right. In any case the Ginans are a collection of random mystical Islamic poems by various people at different times from different regions, which were obviously highly influenced by the religions,language, culture and MUSIC of their time.

"3. Interesting you mention raags because before the Agha Khan III the Ginans were played in raags too."

Lol, thanks for providing an excellent example of 'Islam' using Indic traditions to propogate it's message.

1. As I said before al Azhar states that Ismailis are Muslims and so do most Shi'a maraja. Ismailis are Muslims as long as they respect the pillars of the faith which they do. The Agha Khan still holds an Iranian passport and Ismailis enjoy their rights as Muslims in Iran where they do have centres in important cities. The Ismaili institute published 12er works and the Agha Khans themselves and their own families often get married according to 12er procedures with 12er Shi'as. This would not be possible if they were not considered Muslims. There is no doubt that many clerics disagree with some Ismaili doctrines but there is a difference between divergence in mazhab and being non Muslim. Again your point is void even if you were to quote Sharif al Murtada there are many Shi'a scholars who, whilst disagreeing with Ismailis, clearly state that they are still Muslims because they hold to the declaration of faith.

2. + 3. You seem to confuse inculturation and influence.There is no question that Islam, like Buddhism or Christianity has used inculturation in order to present Islam in a way that would be culturally understandable for the local population. Nevertheless the pillars of the faith and its institution have remained untouched by this process which is why it ought to be termed inculturation not influence.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[Matheen]

Bahadur, why did the Shia Chivalry ritual die out? I'll try to get my hand on those books you mentioned and read for myself. I'm taking it you read them and didn't just rely on what someone told you?

By the way, there are some non-Muslims who have been to Mecca in the days pre-dating passports, one of these is a Swahili author who lives in the town of Lamu, Kenya. He claims that because of the way he was dressed, no one checked anything (what could they check anyway)- he has photos to prove it. I'll get the name of some of his books and let you know.

[shaheediyan]

So accroding to your definition of Muslim, Wahhabis are indeed your beloved brothers!

You confuse me.... how do a people who not believe in the 8th to 12th Imam qualify as true believers in your eyes...

Another interesting point you reminded me of, I recall your rants regarding Sikhs helping the British in the Indian Mutiny, did Aga Hasan Ali Shah, the 46th Imam of the Ismailis not also help the British, for which he was rewarded generously and henceforth, established Ismailism in all its glory in then India with the haraam money?

You are a politician. Inculturation for you, and influence/borrowing/Shia'sm for Sikhs.....

I suppose the message of Imam Ali being the incarnation of Sri Krishna Ji is also now "inculturation" rather than fact in your latest stage of life.

Funny how our Guru's forgot to mention (copy) that one, with their supposed allegience to Shia'ism.

[Mithr]

Funny how our Guru's forgot to mention (copy) that one, with their supposed allegience to Shia'ism.

Maybe our 'Shia' Gurus were observing Takiyaa.

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

Shaheediyan wrote:

So accroding to your definition of Muslim, Wahhabis are indeed your beloved brothers!

You confuse me.... how do a people who not believe in the 8th to 12th Imam qualify as true believers in your eyes...

Another interesting point you reminded me of, I recall your rants regarding Sikhs helping the British in the Indian Mutiny, did Aga Hasan Ali Shah, the 46th Imam of the Ismailis not also help the British, for which he was rewarded generously and henceforth, established Ismailism in all its glory in then India with the haraam money?

You are a politician. Inculturation for you, and influence/borrowing/Shia'sm for Sikhs.....

I suppose the message of Imam Ali being the incarnation of Sri Krishna Ji is also now "inculturation" rather than fact in your latest stage of life.

Funny how our Guru's forgot to mention (copy) that one, with their supposed allegience to Shia'ism.

1. I didn't give any definition of who is a Muslim. I only refuted your claim that Ismailis are not considered Muslims by major Islamic institutions. As for Wahabis the founder of Wahabis has been declared an apostate by the same authorities I have mentioned. Wahabis are therefore not my concern.

2. Shi'as who disagree with the 12er lines are considered heterodox and still within the fold of Islam as they accept tawhid, nubuwah and imamate. It's a difference of lineage which can be respected.

3. Inculturation is a well established notion different from influence. Inculturation in teh South Asian Ismaili tradition is an established fact and has been clearly distinguished from the notion of influence. see Shackle& Moir 1997

4. As for the mention of Ahl ul Bayt (as) in gurbani I would like to remind you that you nor any Sikh have the original pothi written by Baba Nanak Shah (ra) and that we have today is what your line of Gurus has chosen to present to the world with some editing and changes along the line. On the other hand the custodians of Bahlol's shrine in Baghdad are firm in the idea that Baba Nanak Shah (ra) was a Muslims and that he had a book written in Persian containing praises of Ahl ul Bayt (as). Members of the archeological survey of Pakistan have pointed out to me that such a volume has been mentioned in other sources as well. Hopefully we will be able to find it. I always found it strange that Sikhs couldn't locate that very first pothi of Baba Nanak Shah (ra) despite it being the very words of their founder.

To Matheen:

The chivalry rituals are conserved in Shi'a-Sufi orders, the zurkhaneh and the Ahl e Haqq. Yes there have been fraudsters in the past who managed to enter Mekkah and what you are implying by that is that Baba Nanak Shah (ra) entered Mekkah by fraud but we do know that he was checked at the entrance as you janamsakhis say. The guardians checked his writings and concluded that there was nothing wrong with them. As they couldn't read Gurmukhi it is obvious that the writings were either in Arabic or Persian. The fraudster solution some Sikhs use to explain Baba Nanak Shah (ra) visiting Mekkah is simply ridiculous and in many ways insulting to such a great saint.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[amardeep]

The Ginan that mentions Guru Nanak goes as follows:

ann meeleeyaakee jugatee banaee - ab meeleeyaakee kahu(n) samajaaee........................40

I have mentioned about those who have not attained (real peace), now I will explain about those who have attained it.

shiv sanakaadik, ve sukh paayaa - aavaa(n) gamann bahoreeyaa nahi aaee........................41

Shiv Shankar and Sanadik attained real peace; they did not have to endure the cycles thereby.

sukhdev vyaas mile sukh maa(n)hee - fir choraashee aave naahee......................................42

Sukhdev and Vyaas attained real peace, they will not have to undergo the eighty four (cycles).

dhruv pahelaaj sukh meeleeyaa - choraasheekaa ba(n)dhan ttalleeyaa................................43

Dhruv and Pahelaaj attained real peace, they overcame the bondage of eighty four (cycles) thereby.

daas kabir, gururaamaana(n)daa - ve sukh ku(n) meeleekeeyaa aana(n)daa.......................44

Kabir Daas and Guru Ramana(n)da attained real peace and thereby were blissful.

peepaa dhanaa or roheedaasaa - vaa sukhaku(n) meeleekeeyaa vilaasaa..........................45

The pious Pipo and the pious Dhano and Rohidaas attained real peace and thereby were joyful.

vaa(n) sukh ku(n) meelee rahyaa naamaa - taakaa nishvay sahiyaa kaamaa......................46

The pious Nama attained real peace through which all his work was successful and fulfilled.

or naanakshaah ne paayaa - ek naam nishva karine dhyaayaa.........................................47

And Nanak Shah attained peace; he practiced the word with conviction.

vishan surjan maadhav daas - vaa(n) sukha maa(n) vay kiyaa vaasaa..............................48

Vishan Surjan and Madhav Daas established their abode in the real peace.

daadu, rajab, parasaa, geeyaaani - ve sukhasu(n) miliyaa nij dhyaani.............................49

Dadu, Rajab, Parasa, Gyaani - all of them attained real peace through contemplation and remembrance.

ra(n)kaa, va(n)kaa, kaalu ku(m)bhaa - vaa sukh maa(n) vay bee dubaa........................50

Ranka, Vankaa, Kaalu & Kumbhaa - they were also sunk in (the ocean of) peace.

were Shiv Shankar, Dhruv and Prahlad, sukhdev and viyaas also muslims as they are mentioned along with Guru Nanak Mahraj

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op...highlight=nanak

[shaheediyan]

Lol.

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

1. Amardeep, this isn't the only ginan that mentions Baba Nanak Shah (ra) and I would like to remind you that he is being referred to by his Sufi title: Nanak Shah

2. The people mentioned in this list have attained enlightenment by contemplating the light of Imam which has always existed. The fact that rishis of the past have contemplated it is hence of no surprise in the same way as your texts talk of rishi Patanjali attaining enlightenment.

3. The Ismaili origins of Baba Nanak Shah (ra) have already been investigated by Dr Dominique Sila-Khan from the EHESS, her work looks into more detail into the issue.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

1. Amardeep, this isn't the only ginan that mentions Baba Nanak Shah (ra) and I would like to remind you that he is being referred to by his Sufi title: Nanak Shah

2. The people mentioned in this list have attained enlightenment by contemplating the light of Imam which has always existed. The fact that rishis of the past have contemplated it is hence of no surprise in the same way as your texts talk of rishi Patanjali attaining enlightenment.

3. The Ismaili origins of Baba Nanak Shah (ra) have already been investigated by Dr Dominique Sila-Khan from the EHESS, her work looks into more detail into the issue.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[Mithr]

Be name Khoda

1. Amardeep, this isn't the only ginan that mentions Baba Nanak Shah (ra) and I would like to remind you that he is being referred to by his Sufi title: Nanak Shah

2. The people mentioned in this list have attained enlightenment by contemplating the light of Imam which has always existed. The fact that rishis of the past have contemplated it is hence of no surprise in the same way as your texts talk of rishi Patanjali attaining enlightenment.

3. The Ismaili origins of Baba Nanak Shah (ra) have already been investigated by Dr Dominique Sila-Khan from the EHESS, her work looks into more detail into the issue.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

Strangely if BAS can claim that all the ancient Bhagats who predate the Imams were meditating on the divine light of the Imams, then surely we should also be able to use this same baseless logic and say that the reason some Shia practices are same as Sikhi is because the Imams were guided by the eternal divine light of our Gurus.

Sorry, but if you want to use this type of bs logic with us, then it also applies to you. We want facts and figures, not your hokus pokus imagination. Provide scriptural evidence proving Guru Nanak Dev Jee believed in Ismaili Shia'ism. Surely if Guru Nanak was an Ismaili then he would have mentioned some small detail about one of the Imams. Even none of the Janam Sakhis mention Guru Nanak being a Shia/Ismaili of the Imams.

[shaheediyan]

"I didn't give any definition of who is a Muslim."

Then:

"Ismailis are Muslims as long as they respect the pillars of the faith which they do"

As do Wahhabis.

Your Sevener arguement is pathetically weak for obvious reasons, how can a different lineage be respected, either their Imams are false or yours are, which is it?

Re the light of the Imam theory, that is your or someone else's opinion, nothing else. If we put stress on the Ginans, then it is surely Sri Krishna Ji's light that existed first.... interested to hear your reconciliation of Prophethood, Imamat and Avtarhood, sure you will think of one in a few minutes...

You and people like you will twist everything and anything present your facet of Islam as perfect, as you prove.

[shaheediyan]

Also the word Shah simply means "King" - as in the traditional name given to the 10th Master out of love -Shah-e-Shahaan-Shah.

Nepalese royalty also use the word Shah, doesn't make them Shia... or does it - let me guess, the Gurkhai martial traditions and rituals are also derived from Shia'ism?

[Matheen]

Yaar,

You seem to use analogy as a valid form of logic when trying to prove the Shia origins of Sikhi, but Shiism itself discourages (some would say downright forbids) the use of analogy as proof. (There's a good reason too.) One of the differences between Sunnism and Shiism and one reason why they believe in different hadiths.

So your logic is flawed from the outset.

[SAadmin]

can u guys please stick to the topic at hand?..debate regarding sri guru nanak dev ji was muslim or not is already been discussed and fatigued.

Bahudar ali this is your last warning..if u bring up sri guru nanak dev ji was muslim one more time on a different topics...i ll make sure i wont just ban you ...but i ll just ban your goddamn host all together...u will beg to see sikhawareness in ur lifetime.

[shaheediyan]

N30 Singh, did you ever take time to stop and think what Bahadurs purpose and objective for visiting this forum is?

In light of the answer, your request is wasted.

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

On the basis of which forum rule do you wish to ban me now N3O? I have put my points across in a polite and civilized fashion, I haven't attacked anyone on personal grounds nor used any personal info in any malicious manner, nor used foul language. Check all my posts as golestan and you will notice that although other members have had no moral issue with attacking me as a person using private information I have not once replied doing the same. It seems to me that you are indeed very biased as a moderator. Judge the argument not the person N3O.

Anyone is free to come and visit the forum. On shiachat.com we have many people who are Islamophobes and who say the most outrageous things yet they are given the freedom to express their views. I on the other hand am just stating the Shi'a point of view about Baba Nanak Shah (ra). I do realize that you do have a problem with it. But I haven't insulted anyone, I haven't used foul language, nor used private information to defame others contrarily to others. As a moderator you are to judge people by rules not your own emotions. You have done this in the past already but I hold no grudges. This is a discussion forum unless you want it to be a "feel good lounge" with no challenges.

"

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[SAadmin]

you will get banned not because i dont like you because you breakin forum rules by going off-topics repeatedely after many requests to stay on topic on many past and future threads.

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

Off topic? The discussion is about the institution of guru granth which I have said derives from the practice of replacing the living teacher with the Quran or a book of his. There was nothing off topic in what I wrote. The problem isn't the off topics isn't it N3O...

"past and future threads" future threads? Are you predicting the future N3O?

Anyways I made my point about the topic.

ps I noticed some unanswered posts by Matheen:

Analogy is forbidden in matters of fiqh not in intellectual discussions. I am not discussing fiqh here. I am having an intellectual debate. If this was your attempt to show me that you checked wikipedia articles on Shi'ism you won: I am impressed.

by Shaheediyan:

Whatever you may say about it Ismailis are considered Muslims. 12er Shi'a scholars don't go to extent of declaring a group non-Muslim because of a difference of lineage. It doesn't mean they agree. It just means they respect the right to disagree. And for your information the Agha Khans untl recently pledged allegiance to the qutb of the Nimatullahi order, a 12er order which again means that many Sufis were both Nimatullahis and Ismailis. It is hence also clear that the Ismaili Imams didn't see themselves to be at equal level with Imam Mahdi (aj). see Lewisohn's article on the subject.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[unbreakable]

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