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LOL, I have to give respect to the monkey Bush for his lightening reflexes. I hope they don't torture the guy to death and murder all his family for his brave stance.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uNhzTN0Japc&...feature=related

Listen to this clowns words about the incident! He seems confused as to why someone who has had their country raped and taken back to the stone age would have any issues with him.... oh the confusion!

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Well he had WMDs that he used against the Kurds. the decommissioned these and the fact is that he could easily have avoided the war had he put all his cards on the table.

The west supported Saddam because he was seen as a lesser threat than your mad ayatollahs in Iran. Even your Arab brothers-in-faith supported Saddam against Iran. When Saddam attacked Kuwait then he became a bigger threat and that was why he was dealt with. Unfortunately the Islamic mentality is best suited to be governed by tyrants and despots hence the reason why people like this shoe thrower cannot handle the freedom that America has given him.

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My Arab brothers in faith are either Lebanese or Iraqi Shi'a and to be honest given the fact that Saddam killed hundreds of thousands if not millions of Iraqi Shi'as with the West's blessing,and given the fact that Iraqi Shi'a rebelled against Saddam in 1991, I don't see your point in your "Even your Arab brothers-in-faith supported Saddam against Iran". But then again we all know that you're not really an authority in things Islamic. And yes he had WMDs that all came from the West. He had French mirage fighterjets, and very often these were piloted by French pilots. Several European countries gave him chemical weapons and components for mustard gaz. I have seen the victims myself.The Kurds weren't the only victims of Saddam's chemical weapons. You talk about "Islamic tyrants" but these same tyrants are supported with your tax money so you can feel better about your temporary pride about living in the UK.

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"hence the reason why people like this shoe thrower cannot handle the freedom that America has given him."

That is probably the stupidest remark i have ever heard!!

It's about the Islamic mentality, my friend.

Well let's see. You have a tyrant rule over you for decades who kills with impunity. Every part of your routine in life is regulated even to the point of how many stones you should use to wipe your a*se. What prayer to say when you use the loo. Then the Americans invade your country and start their experiment in democracy. For this Iraqi guy, suddenly he has to make choices such as who to vote for and he can basically live his life as he chooses. But the inverse of this is that he also has to see other people live their lives as they choose. For people of his mentality cannot handle that women might not want to walk around in a tent, that they might want to wear a bit of make up etc. For people like him such things are a corruption of his islamic utopia. Even though in this utopia Saddam could murder people with impunity. He also has to see infidels in his country even through they are the people who have liberated him. He might even have to see Jews in the American armed forces and that will really set him off seething, that he an Arab with all their machismo culture lived like slaves to a madman like Saddam and Infidels had to liberate him. This is the Arab mentality and as most non-Arab Muslims, even our friend Morghe have to take on the Arab mentality wholesale then this can now be called the Islamic mentality. This is why when billions of dollars are dispatched as aid for Muslim countries like Indonesia after the Tsunami, there is very little gratitude from them. Even though the billionaire Arab sent less than 10% of the aid yet they will always be grateful to the Arabs more than they will to the west. Here's an example from closer home. In 1971 Bangladesh was liberated by the Indian army. Lakhs of Bengalis were murdered by their fellow Muslim Pakistanis. India invaded to liberate them and had no territorial ambitions to take over any part of Bangladesh and spent millions of dollars to liberate them. Do you think that any of these Bangladeshis are grateful? Nope, in 1985 they had the nerve to ban the entry of Sikhs into that country, the same Sikhs who had sacrificed to save them from the Pakistani army. Now Bangladesh is a Jihadi haven and probably more dangerous than Pakistan.

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Tonyhp32 wrote:

"Here's an example from closer home. In 1971 Bangladesh was liberated by the Indian army. Lakhs of Bengalis were murdered by their fellow Muslim Pakistanis. India invaded to liberate them and had no territorial ambitions to take over any part of Bangladesh and spent millions of dollars to liberate them. Do you think that any of these Bangladeshis are grateful? Nope, in 1985 they had the nerve to ban the entry of Sikhs into that country, the same Sikhs who had sacrificed to save them from the Pakistani army. Now Bangladesh is a Jihadi haven and probably more dangerous than Pakistan."

1. Bangladesh is close to Southall? I didn't know that forgive my ignorance.

2. Was it the Indian Army or "the Sikhs" who liberated Bangladesh?

Tonyhp32 wrote:

"Then the Americans invade your country and start their experiment in democracy. "

Americans have their own country to experiment with democracy. If they had wanted to help Iraqis they would have done so in 1991. They didn't.

Tonyhp32 wrote:

"

Well let's see. You have a tyrant rule over you for decades who kills with impunity. Every part of your routine in life is regulated even to the point of how many stones you should use to wipe your a*se. What prayer to say when you use the loo."

The Bathist regime was secular and disencouraged religion. Saddam as an Arab nationalist not an Islamist.

I don't know the reporter who threw shoes at Saddam, but you seem to know him inside out.Mashallah.

Maybe the day when your house gets bombed by airplanes, your 14 yo girl bodysearched , stripped or raped by foreign soldiers, your brother seen on picture of AbuGhaib being sodomised by a dog and your places of worship being bulldozed or used for sex parties by foreign troups, maybe that day you'll think differently.

I pray for the day that the BNP kicks your head in and makes you realise that no matter how hard you try to serve your gore sahiban you will always remain a foreigner, we'll see then if your neo'con lapdog mentality is still so eager to praise bombing and raping people into "democracy".

I have friends who well before the Americans came were involved in resisting Saddam and having a society ruled by Iraqis in a democratic way. Some of them not even that religious. They have had people killed by American bombs, female family members mollested by American soldiers etc

You're obscene beyond redemption.

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"2. Was it the Indian Army or "the Sikhs" who liberated Bangladesh? "

One name is all that matters - General Shabeg Singh Ji.

Tonyhp - I have known many Bangladeshis over my life - all of whom have treated me with respect and knew very well - who (see above), was responsible for the liberation of their country (them telling me, not the other way around).

As for the rest of your post, I have to agree with BA - and say that your purposeful ignorance is nauseating. People like you will only understand what it means to have your humanity taken away (irrelevant of whatever form it existed in beforehand) when something dreadful like this happens to you (God forbid).

You're lack of compassion and blind hate makes you no different to Wahhabis.

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Morghe,

The Americans would have taken out Saddam in 1991 but for your Arab co-religionists who didn't want to 'humiliate' a fellow Arab. Of course the UN didn't help with their half a*sed resolutions.

I see you've brought the Islamists' propaganda hook line and sinker! Of course we all know the Americans are going around raping every Iraqi woman, strip searching all the young girls and a host of other crimes. Sodomised by dogs are you sure that actually happened or are you confusing fact with some kind of personal sick fantasy? The fact that Abu Ghraib is the only one of a few documented crimes which incidentally have been dealt with by the authorities is neither here nor there. Did I mention the Islamic mentality? Well there you have an example of it! All you can do is regurgitate propaganda no doubt from Islamist sites as well as adding that usual 'i have friends who.blah blah bal'. Yes of course you have a great reputation for honesty on this forum therefore we should all take your propaganda regurgitation as fact! Perhaps you would be more amenable if the Americans followed the Islamic ruling on how to deal with prisoners of war? Shouldn't they have killed, sold or ransomed the captured Iraqi soldiers. Of course the final decision would have been down to Dubya, him being the Kalif of the Kafiroun. How about the wives and daughters of these Iraqis? shouldn't they have kept them as slaves and concubines? Wouldn't all Iraqis technically be the 'possessions of the right hand' of the Americans?

If I support the Americans it's because I believe that what they are doing in Iraq is trying to give the Iraqi people freedom. They should not have invaded Iraq in the first place but they did so because Saddam wanted to maintain his Arab machismo and did not tell the UN inspectors the full facts. If he had proved beyond a doubt that he had destroyed his WMDs then there is no way the USA would have invaded. Then you could have had your Iraqi utopia and Saddam could deal his people as he saw fit. It's surprising how some people fail to mention Al Qaeda and it's contribution to the chaos in Iraq. Apparently it's all America's fault.

You call me a neo-con lag dog! lol..I could say a lot of things about you who has left his own culture and religion and is sitting in another country living off the generosity of his benefactors. But I won't as you should know personal attacks are not allowed on this forum. :)

Shaheediyan,

Thank you for your kind words. It's funny how the liberals and the ultra PC people are the ones who say the nastiest of things. I have never wished ill on you even to show you what Islam really is and to take you and others on this forum out of their 'kumbaya' mentality. I have only given my views as I see it.

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tonyhp32: the Americans would have invaded anyway. They needed to show their public that they were doing something, and WMD was the perfect excuse. Their ex-defense secretary admitted it.

Bush was clueless of the facts. He deserves what he gets.....it's not for no reason that he's inspired so much comedy in the last 8 years.

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Tony, I may sometimes try and be polite, but never at the expense of my understanding of the truth or Guru's teachings.

That you actually think that the UN serves a purpose and that the US are actually the 'Wolrd Police Force' is one thing, but your statement below, I have to say, is the most stupid thing I have ever heard in my life!

You have a serious addiction to the Sun, wake up and smell the coffee.

Unless your using cryptic language and word Iraqi actually means American and the word freedom means OIL!

"If I support the Americans it's because I believe that what they are doing in Iraq is trying to give the Iraqi people freedom."

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Tony wrote:

"your Arab co-religionists"

My Arab correligionists are Arab Shi'a, be it Lebanese or Iraqi and they were against Saddam.

You're the kind of guy who 50 years ago would have complained about "Chinese mentality" not being grateful for the Japanese rape of Nankin.

As I said I hope the day comes when some BNP or NF guys kick your head so badly that you end up in hospital repeating for days on end:"But I am your friend, I hate Muslims too!"

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Shaheediyan,

You know the problem with people of the conspiracist mindset is that for them there is never any reason to formulate a strategy or even answer a simple question. Do you really believe the conspiracy theorists that Bush went in for the oil, if so why have American consumers and consumers around the world had to recently pay record prices for their petrol? Or is the latest theory that Bush went in for his friends in the oil business?

Ok let me ask you a question, we are where we are now so do you-;

1. Want the US to leave immediately?

2. Stay as the latest security pact says until 2011 and leave a stable country behind?

If it's the first option even Obama and his advisors know there will be a bloodbath. No doubt if the US leave and there is a bloodbath the conspiracy mongers will say that it was the Americans fault in the first place for going in. Apart from the Michael Moore fan club most people are starting to understand that no matter if all the grieviences of Muslims are dealt with they will still come up with something else as a reason for bombing the hell out of non-Muslims as well as Muslims. Al Qaeda's agenda is that they want all lands formerly ruled by Islam to be returned to Muslims. That means Spain, the Balkans as well as India. I suppose you are ok with that? At what stage do people of you ilk say enough is enough?

Like it or not, the US is giving these Iraqis a chance to vote for their own future. All it takes in for Al Qaeda to stop their suicide bombings and for the Iraqi government to grow some balls and take on Al Qaeda as well as the Shias like the Mahdi army. Or wait is it the US that are doing these bombings in order to stay in control of Iraq? With conspiracy theorists every inconvenient question has a further conspiracy attached to it.

The terrorists don't need a reason for the bloodbath, if America is out then Al qaeda will want the Shia majority to revert back to their 2nd class citizenship. Kurds won't take attempt to deprive them of their autonomy and similarly the Shia emboldened by the Iranians won't want to be back to the Saddam days of Sunni rule.

Morghe,

I must be so easy to have such a simplistic view of life. If someone doesn't get taken in by the ISSLAAAM IS A RELIGION OF PEEASEEE bukwas, then automatically he is a BNP supporter. If he not white then he is a BNP lap dog. You really need to get out of your Iranian slum.

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"Like it or not, the US is giving these Iraqis a chance to vote for their own future. "

This is bullshit. The US attacked iraq for their own benefits, they did'n give a damn about the iraqis. If the iraqis wish to have an islamic state and 80% percent of the population votes for the islamic party at the elections, do you think the americans will accept this? no they won't.. They talk nonsense about democracy but the americans and the west will only accept the outcome if it comes in the favour of the west. look at palestinian electio.. They had elections a few years ago and hamas won... inspite of this being a democratic election the west never acknowledged the outcome.. its like saying "we want to give you freedom so that you can choose your own leaders", and when they do so they will be told to f*ck off because we dont agree with your views and the ones you voted for

all this talk about democracy and freedom is bullshit..

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1. I don't like Saddam and I never said Bush went there for the oil. The US went there because of an unfounded suspicion of weapons of mass destruction.

2. Your fantasy about Muslims wanting to conquer the whole world is as ridiculous at the stupid Antisemitic fantasy of Jews wanting to control the world. Bin Laden may say whatever he wants, it has no importance for us Shi'a. Our fiqh is clear about the fact that only Imam e Zaman (ajf) has the right to wage offensive jihad against God's ennemies. When he comes back he will judge the Christians by the Gospel, the Jews by the Torah and the Muslims by teh Quran. So keep your antisemitic turned islamophobic conspiracies for yourself. Iran hasn't attacked a single country for the last 200 years.

3. Americans are giving Iraqis a chance to vote...So a sovereign nation is being the right by another to vote. That's just the cherry on the cake. Who are the US anyways to grant that right?

4. Iraq is a British creation anyways, a totally artifical country with no underlying unity. If it becomes a federal state it might work.But that is up to the Iraqis decide NOT the US, UK or even Iran.

5. "I must be so easy to have such a simplistic view of life. If someone doesn't get taken in by the ISSLAAAM IS A RELIGION OF PEEASEEE bukwas, then automatically he is a BNP supporter. If he not white then he is a BNP lap dog. You really need to get out of your Iranian slum."

A person living in London's infamous open air toilet called Southall shouldn't use words like "Iranian slum". If there is one place in the world where I have seen the greatest number of cockroaches it is Southall...nightmare.

You are a lapdog of the Empire, by your servile willingness to support the new anitsemtism that is islamophobia. Deep down you seek acceptance from your white masters by doing so, in the same way Sikh soldiers served the Empire by helping crushing India's first Hindu-Muslim independence war in the name of some anti-Mughal prophecy. It's also the way you portray Islam as the new fascism, just like gays call straight people fascist, the way you try to portray the Sikh community as Indian holocaust victims. Your whole discourse is that of the Empire. You fully collaborate with it, you enjoy serving it. The irony in your situation is that when they'll eventually get rid of Muslims you'll be next. You'll find yourself in the situation when you'll say:"But I am British too, I hate Muslims too"

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"Like it or not, the US is giving these Iraqis a chance to vote for their own future. "

This is bullshit. The US attacked iraq for their own benefits, they did'n give a damn about the iraqis. If the iraqis wish to have an islamic state and 80% percent of the population votes for the islamic party at the elections, do you think the americans will accept this? no they won't.. They talk nonsense about democracy but the americans and the west will only accept the outcome if it comes in the favour of the west. look at palestinian electio.. They had elections a few years ago and hamas won... inspite of this being a democratic election the west never acknowledged the outcome.. its like saying "we want to give you freedom so that you can choose your own leaders", and when they do so they will be told to f*ck off because we dont agree with your views and the ones you voted for

all this talk about democracy and freedom is bullshit..

Iraqis have voted for Islamic parties and the US haven't banned these parties or prevented their MPs from taking office. As for your foolish example of the Palestinians voting for Hamas, you need to read up on unbiased commentary and not rely on conspiracy sites. Hamas refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist. It's charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Their leaders are on record as saying that the only solution to the Palestinian problem is Jihad! This policy was clearly part of their election bid and the Palestinians who voted for that party knew what they were voting for. Hamas was also declared a terrorist organisation due to it's attack of Israeli civilians in suicide bombs.

When Hamas won, the West wanted them to recogise the right of Israel's right to exist as a prelude to direct talks which they would not. How can you have two sides negotiate when one party does not recognise the other party's right to exist. This is why the West does not deal directly with Hamas and any aid is dispatched directly through NGOs and the Hamas govt.

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1. I don't like Saddam and I never said Bush went there for the oil. The US went there because of an unfounded suspicion of weapons of mass destruction.

Well at least we agree on one thing that there was no huge conspiracy to invade Iraq for the oil. Unfortunately some Sikhs on this forum are infected with this conspiracy nonsense.

2. Your fantasy about Muslims wanting to conquer the whole world is as ridiculous at the stupid Antisemitic fantasy of Jews wanting to control the world. Bin Laden may say whatever he wants, it has no importance for us Shi'a. Our fiqh is clear about the fact that only Imam e Zaman (ajf) has the right to wage offensive jihad against God's ennemies. When he comes back he will judge the Christians by the Gospel, the Jews by the Torah and the Muslims by teh Quran. So keep your antisemitic turned islamophobic conspiracies for yourself. Iran hasn't attacked a single country for the last 200 years.

What are Shia? 10% of Muslims and isn't your sect a miniscule percentage of that? So apologies for being blunt but the views of your sect in the Muslim-non Muslim issue are of no consequence since the vast majority of Muslims are Sunnis and they for the most part support Bin Laden although the recent shoe thrower may have overtaken Bin Laden of late given that Bin Laden hasn't been able to organise a major attack on the west in the last few years. Iran hasn't attack another country because they don't have the conventional capacity hence the need for nuclear weapons. Although they did do some sabre rattling a few years before 9/11 when the Taliban killed some Iranians in Afghanistan.

3. Americans are giving Iraqis a chance to vote...So a sovereign nation is being the right by another to vote. That's just the cherry on the cake. Who are the US anyways to grant that right?

If the people have been incapable of getting rid of their dictators then sometimes the US has to intervene. This is not to say that the US hasn't historically made enormous mistakes mainly due to the cold war such as supporting the Shah or deposing that reformer in Iran in the 1950s. I forget his name but I'm sure you know who I mean. Forget your conversion induced humiliation for the Muslims having to help from infidels to dispose of a dictator and look at the situation now. For the all the conspiracy nuts beliefs about the US in Iraq, the Americans just want to cut and run as soon as they can. They know that whatever they do the liberal nuts in alliance with the Islamic nuts will always blame the US for everything. There is little doubt that when the US leave Iraq will implode. Shias ill kill Sunnis and Kurds will kill Arabs and Turkmens thereby ensuring intervention by Iran and the Arab states.

4. Iraq is a British creation anyways, a totally artifical country with no underlying unity. If it becomes a federal state it might work.But that is up to the Iraqis decide NOT the US, UK or even Iran.

Some federal system or more likely a partition would be the answer. Iraq and for the most parts most Muslim states cannot last as democracies because the Islamic mentality is not conducive to the freedom which comes with living in a democratic state.

A person living in London's infamous open air toilet called Southall shouldn't use words like "Iranian slum". If there is one place in the world where I have seen the greatest number of cockroaches it is Southall...nightmare.

You are a lapdog of the Empire, by your servile willingness to support the new anitsemtism that is islamophobia. Deep down you seek acceptance from your white masters by doing so, in the same way Sikh soldiers served the Empire by helping crushing India's first Hindu-Muslim independence war in the name of some anti-Mughal prophecy. It's also the way you portray Islam as the new fascism, just like gays call straight people fascist, the way you try to portray the Sikh community as Indian holocaust victims. Your whole discourse is that of the Empire. You fully collaborate with it, you enjoy serving it. The irony in your situation is that when they'll eventually get rid of Muslims you'll be next. You'll find yourself in the situation when you'll say:"But I am British too, I hate Muslims too"

Come on Morghe, you miss Southall really! You seem to go on about it in every post. Thank you for amateur attempt at a psychiatrist assessment. Way off the mark of course but when have you ever cared for the truth? Is there no end to your talents? I suppose you can also sing for your dinner (no doubt in ancient Avestani) in Iran?

We all know that Iran isn't the utopia you like to portray here. I must say that I am surprised by your insistence on the mutiny of 1857 as 'India's first Hindu-Muslim independence war'. You must read a lot of desh bhagat Indian nationalistic garbage to still believe that old chestnut! Sikhs as well as many Hindus and Muslims fought for the British against the mutineers as well as that hotch potch of Hindustani Nawabs and Rajas and Ranis. What prophecy did the non-Sikhs believe in as their reason for fighting for the British? There was a number of reasons for the Sikhs to fight on the British side such as the Sikhs states threw their lot in with the British, without the Lahore state, Patiala had become de-facto leaders of the Sikhs and the fear of the return of the Mughal empire under that poetry sprouting Hijra ironically named Bahadur Shah Zafar. You wouldn't expect the Jews to support the coming to power of the Nazis in Germany, would you?

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Tony32hp wrote:

"What are Shia? 10% of Muslims and isn't your sect a miniscule percentage of that? So apologies for being blunt but the views of your sect in the Muslim-non Muslim issue are of no consequence since the vast majority of Muslims are Sunnis and they for the most part support Bin Laden although the recent shoe thrower may have overtaken Bin Laden of late given that Bin Laden hasn't been able to organise a major attack on the west in the last few years. Iran hasn't attack another country because they don't have the conventional capacity hence the need for nuclear weapons. Although they did do some sabre rattling a few years before 9/11 when the Taliban killed some Iranians in Afghanistan. "

Iraq has 60 to 70% of Shia so it does matter. Coming from someone whose community makes up 2 % of India's population I am bit surprised at you "majority" argument.

"Shias ill kill Sunnis and Kurds will kill Arabs and Turkmens thereby ensuring intervention by Iran and the Arab states.

"

Then let them kill each other if they so wish, what does it have to do with America? How would you feel if I came to your house and start "sorting out" your problems. Sovereign state, ever heard that expression?

"Some federal system or more likely a partition would be the answer. Iraq and for the most parts most Muslim states cannot last as democracies because the Islamic mentality is not conducive to the freedom which comes with living in a democratic state."

Probably why Iranians had Mossadegh in 1953 who was then out of office by a CIA-MI6 coup....bravo! Splendid indeed!

"We all know that Iran isn't the utopia you like to portray here. I must say that I am surprised by your insistence on the mutiny of 1857 as 'India's first Hindu-Muslim independence war'. You must read a lot of desh bhagat Indian nationalistic garbage to still believe that old chestnut! Sikhs as well as many Hindus and Muslims fought for the British against the mutineers as well as that hotch potch of Hindustani Nawabs and Rajas and Ranis. What prophecy did the non-Sikhs believe in as their reason for fighting for the British? There was a number of reasons for the Sikhs to fight on the British side such as the Sikhs states threw their lot in with the British, without the Lahore state, Patiala had become de-facto leaders of the Sikhs and the fear of the return of the Mughal empire under that poetry sprouting Hijra ironically named Bahadur Shah Zafar. You wouldn't expect the Jews to support the coming to power of the Nazis in Germany, would you?

"

What are Sikhs? 2% percent of India's population? What does your opinion count? Fact remains most Indians celebrate that revolution. (A taste of your own majority argument medicine). You remind me of these transexual lesbians (men turned women turned lesbians) who call straight people nazis. I spoke to an orthodox Rabbi once about how you and your people love to portray the Mughals as Nazis. He laughed. It pretty much says it all...

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