Acclaimed Martial Arts Expert, Chris Crudelli On Shastar Vidiya, On 5 Live

[spiderman]

Forward to 2 hours and 53 minutes, to listen to Martial Arts expert Chris Crudelli talk about Shastar Vidiya - The Ancient Hindu Indian Battlefield Combat Arts of the Khalsa.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00k5...ive_05_05_2009/

[shaheediyan]

Lol. I remember our old friend Bahadur Ali and his easily influenced new Shia mates made a group on Facebook - apparently proving SV was a fraud, and guess who they were using as their expert opnion! Even though Chris was talking about some South Indian 'gatka' equivalent circus act master...

Bunch of clowns!

Good to see all the recognised martial artists getting on board, this is the only way the sceptics are going to learn.

I hope Chris will do an episode with Nidar Singh and test him to the limits, empty hand and weapons based - it would be an education and excellent promotion of an important and very nearly extinct aspect of the Khalsa Panth.

[Mithar]

Anyone who has trained in grappling can clearly see the Niddar Singh took alot of grappling moves from outside and fused it with his martial arts and is now calling it his own. Are we to actually swallow this lie that HE IS THE ONLY person! THE ONLY Nihang! in the whole wide world who knows this secret martial arts? Yeah right! I believe the following saying fits in perfectly for this scenario:

"There's nothing so absurd that if you repeat it often enough, people will believe it."

-- William James (The father of modern Psychology)

This lie that Niddar Singh's martial arts is somehow ancient is a bold faced lie being shoved down our throats, so much so that now they are spreading this lie to the media. I'm not saying Nidder Singh's martial arts is not effective, it probably is, but it certainly isn't ancient.

[Maha Singh]

Anyone who has LEARNT grappling in shastarvidiya will quickly realise that it is nothing like grappling in any other art.

If what Niddar Singh teaches is a fusion of other arts, then experienced martial artist will easily see through it. If these martial artists accept and acknowledge that his vidiya is unique and carries the aspects of a higher level martial art, untainted by outside influence, then will you change your mind? I doubt it, because your hatred for one man clouds your ability to see the truth.

[Mithar]

C'mon Maha Singh, is Niddar Singh the ONLY PERSON in the whole wide world to have this secret knowledge as he claims? No one else has this secret knowledge? No Sikh, not even other Nihangs? Niddar Singh is the only one?

[shaheediyan]

Mithar, why do you sound so shocked?

Have you seen Nihangs of late? Have asked any of them about SV?

They will laugh at you, show you their gun and tell you to get a life.

I research a little in Shaastri and Gurmat Sangeet, let me ask you a question:

How many of the thousands of Raagis in the world have knowledge of any of the folk dhunis appearing with the 9 associated Vaars in Gurbani (outside of Asa) and how many of them have vidya of the puratan use of ghar?

Let me tell you, zero. As far as many experts in the field have researched, they have found zilch. This does not mean that there is not someone out there in some obscure corner of india who is singing these very important vaars as were sung in Guru Hargobind Sahibs darbar....

Many aspects of our tradition are lost or vritually extinct. Talking here proves nothing - all other issues aside, Nidar Singh shares (openly) all that he knows, not like secreive gatka ustads who appear to withold info (because there is nothing else to share), don't tell you who their Gurdev was (cos it was probably Nanak Dev Singh) and invent stories like Guru Gobind Singh sent singhs to China to learn empty handed combat (to justify their incorporation of a farangi vidya).

If you want to see where the grappling is rooted, go and spend some time in a traditional Indian pehlvani akaara, all will be revealed. Not everything originates from UFC!

As Maha Singh says, people let their hatred get the better of them.

The proof is in the pudding - its not media recognition that matters, but that of expert martial artists (esp classical) - who are now starting to study and acknowlegde that Nidar Singh is teaching something belonging to the old world - and something that is unique.

At the end of the day - fighting a war is different to street self defence or sport. There is nowhere else Nidar Singh could have learnt Yudh Vidya that completely relates to the Indo-Persian weaponary that is taught with, other than from a lineage that has preserved and used the vidya.

Anyhow, its for people to see for themselves and think for themselves and make up their own minds.

[akalisodhi]

Its a real shame, even when fully fledged martial artists come forward and compare this art to something which their masters spoke of, or of arts which they have only ever read about, and the same martial artists are more than happy to come to the akhara and learn from Nihang Niddar Singh, why is it then that the sikh panth still refuse to accept the credibility of such an art.

Some times I think if even if Guru Gobind Singh Ji came back and told the panth that shastar vidiya was the real deal they still wouldn't believe it.

[Mithar]

Comparing Gurmat Sangeet with Niddar Singh's martial which he calls SV is comparing apples and oranges. For starters, Gurmat Sangeet is not a dead art. It was always there, albeit in small numbers but none the less it always existed. In general kirtan lovers were aware of Gurmat Sangeet, it was never a secret.

But the martial arts that Niddar Singh masquerades as Shastar Vidiya is not known by anyone all except for a single human being in England. I talk to nihangs in India, and what they call Shastar Vidiya is not the same as what Niddar Singh calls Shastar Vidya, I even showed some of them his Karate moves on my computer. For them the term Shastar Vidiya means exactly what it means i.e. knowledge of weapons, but certainly none of the karate moves that Niddar Singh shows on his site. I still remember when I first asked about “Jhatka Gatka”, all I got were confused looks from Nihangs in India.

If you want to see where the grappling is rooted, go and spend some time in a traditional Indian pehlvani akaara, all will be revealed. Not everything originates from UFC!

India is not the source or the motherland of Pehlavani. The term 'Pehlavani' itself is Persian in origin. Almost every nation on earth has some form of wrestling which is indiginous.

The proof is in the pudding - its not media recognition that matters, but that of expert martial artists (esp classical) - who are now starting to study and acknowlegde that Nidar Singh is teaching something belonging to the old world - and something that is unique.

The man basically knows how to package his product in impressive wrapping paper with skills of story telling coupled with knowledge of MMA. Niddar Singh basically stole his story from Kalari which actually is ancient and has written as well as oral history of persecuted and of it's ancient existance. Strangely, Niddar Singh’s self invented martial arts has more similiarities to Kung Fu and MMA than indiginious martial arts of India such as Kalari.

This man has a history of lying. He used to claim he was head of buddha dal in UK which a Nihang Singh recently comfirmed was a lie. None of the great Jathadars agree with his views which he presents as being authentic Nihang views. I’m surprised how people still actually beleive in this compulsive liar.

At the end of the day - fighting a war is different to street self defence or sport. There is nowhere else Nidar Singh could have learnt Yudh Vidya that completely relates to the Indo-Persian weaponary that is taught with, other than from a lineage that has preserved and used the vidya.

The form of midevil Persian warfare has it’s origin in central asian warfare of the Turkic/Mongols. Now I know that Niddar Singh’s martial bears no similarity to Turko-Mongol warfare, it certainly bears no similarity to any indiginous Indian martial arts such as kalari, yet it does bear similarity to what you would find in South East asia (Japan, China etc)

[Guest]

Can party who think shastar vidya that nihang niddar singh teaches its not authentic at least provide anyalsis supporting their claim?

I don't support nihang niddar singh when it comes to his views at all but i have no question regarding authenticity of shastarvidya he teaches. I like to give credit where its due.

If sri guru nanak dev ji saw goodness in demon like kauda rakshas, thief like sajan thug. Why can't his sikhs see goodness in someone like nihang niddar singh regardless of some of anti gurmat views that he beleives.??

Puratin Sikhs were never like this or had this kind of attitude, if one nit picks on jeevani of puratan sikhs/scholars they will know there are many things they did or beleived in things which were totally anti-gurmat, yet their good quality was praised regardless of anti-gurmat views in the panth, if we start picking up bad qualities or picking up things what puratan historians/scholars did or beleived and reject them out right. We wouldn't know sikh history, meaning of gurbani terms, traditions- oral and spiritual and achievements and simply- We will not get anywhere.

One peace of advise to the members- give credit where its due regardless of person's view. That was the attitude in puratan times and thats the why attitude should be in this time.

[shaheediyan]

Mithar, from your posts you seem like an intelligent guy and all, but sadly you do yourself no justice on this topic, your arguements are near to baseless and irrelevant.

I wasn't speaking about Gurmat Sangeet per se, I was speaking about certain very important aspects of it which have been lost.

Yes there are many ragis out there, but how many of them have vidya over Bhai Mardanas dhrupadi style and the Jori/Mridang bols that were used in Guru Ramdas Jis court.... the large part of what we see as Gurmat Sangeet today is nothing more than repackaged modern Indian Classical.

There are literally only a hand few (if that) of Raagis left who have vidya over these bhols, styles from Gurbani - and even less who have vidya over performing aspects of Dasam bani.

My point is completey relevant - Sikh art forms have vanished, and I can say SV and Kirtan are perfectly comparable having studies and compared both.

There are many, many similarities in the mythology surrounding both - there are similarities in the practice/riaz, the names of the shaastri mats and shastri pentras, I could go on - but I hope to write on the subject in detail one day so won't spoil it for everyone.

It is completely plausible that Nidar Singh is 'one of' the only practitioners of this puratan vidya left.

Re pehlvani - the name is only a modern tag - study Indian Martial history - you will see the 'kol' has been a science for thousands of years.

There are practitioners of many classical Chinese martial arts in this country that are being exposed to SV, your theories will be disproven by the experts. Needless to say, for those that have been to the akaara for some time, your claims will seem absurd - China has no equivalent to the higher Devtai forms, nothing even resembles them. The Pushu forms may bear some similarity in name, not in technique.

Re the warfare strategies, I really think you are in over your head. Nidar Singh has studied battlefield techniques and regulary lectures on the Sikh version (given by Dasm Pathshah) and Mughal (central/turk/persian based) version - using historical evidence!

Anyhow, I know from experience yo can't change the mind of someone who holds a grudge against someone, so tI don't expect any amount of evidence will change your mind.

Nidar Singh will hopefully be releasing many more books which will academically back up his claims (historical resources and traditions) so people will be able to see the whole picture and decide for themselves in the near future.

[Mithar]

Fair enough. I’m an open minded person. If something contains the truth then it’s the truth whether I agree with it or not. I have my reason for not trusting Niddar Singh because he has a history of making false claims. But if it is true to say that he is the only person in the whole wide world to have this secret knowledge and my view is not in agreement with this statement then ultimately only Guru jee knows who is on the side of truth because SatyaMeVijayte

[tonyhp32]

One thing that is confusing, was Shastar Vidya or Jhatka Gatka known by all Nihangs prior to 1849 or was it even a secret art back then. There is an account of some Nihangs taking exception of the East India company sepoys taking out a shia procession through the streets of Amritsar and being badly mauled in the brawl. This is given as the reason for Maharaja Ranjit Singh modernising his army. These Nihangs were not just ordinary run of the mill Nihangs but they came from their choani near Akal Takht so one would guess that if any Nihangs in the 1800s would know SV it would have been these ones. Also if SV was so effective then why wasn't it also used in the modernised army of Maharaja Ranjit Singh?

[drawrof]

One thing I'd like to point out that people fail to mention is that the moghuls/turks as a group became disenfranchised after aurangzeb because the successive leaders and politics did not have the same mettle and power as the predecessors. When the singhs fought at that time they had more than just an 'art' at their disposal. They used guerilla warfare, they used allies (ie. ala singh with the marhattas), their knowledge of the land, weapons, their own espionage network to beat a group that was already disenfranchised (much like the british did with sikhs post maharaja ranjit singh)......I think it was in siques, tigers and thieves that there is an account of how the singhs used to be great marksmen with bows and arrows (while riding on horses) <pre 1780's>....but subsequently, they started using muskets and that skill diminished.....

In attending Niddar's class (2-4 times at most...while I visited the uk)...I observed how he shared an earlier paradigm and how he explained things in the context of warfare...it is the comprehensive approach to the subject matter that I found very interesting.

On the same reasoning tony, SV would not be able to prevent the effects of an atomic bomb....but if 2 people were in close proximity with weapons (ie. the swords etc that aren't used in contemporary warfare)....it would have merit, if you had to kill or be killed.

I'd love to answer SV questions, but my knowledge here is peripheral.

[Weedol]

From what I gather, there is Niddar Singh saying he has this secret 'puratan' art that nobody else knows, and he starts teaching it. The Independent says this guy is/was a factory packer from Birmingham, until he suddenly opens a martial arts school. Then people like Chris Crudelli who have done recognisable martial arts come and try his skills, and they say yes Niddar is a good fighter (or, no he isn't). This guy may be a good fighter, but that doesn't tell us where his style comes from. My question is: is there any way to check that he is teaching an authentic traditional martial art and not something he made up? Has anyone gone to Niddar Singh's teacher's school and asked about him? Is there a document from the old days stating the lineage of his art? Is/was there any old fighting manual containing these techniques? Any kind of paper trail for this art, or do we just have to take his word?

[drawrof]

I have been one of those people who went to his akhara and I did ask him. He told me. He actually went into great detail about it and I found it very convincing. Others who know of his ustads/dada ustad all seem to point in the same direction.

Lineages can also be fictionalised too....and the importance of a lineage comes more into account when something seems to deviate from a tradition or something is almost a lost tradition and it is being perserved for heritage reasons.

[Malwe Da Sher]

Watching the videos of Niddar Singhs demonstrations which have recently gone online, one cerainly must appreciate the beauty in what hes teaching. whatever ones view of him may be, they may as well accept this good martial arts he is teaching as leading martial artists have ackowledged it. Whether or not its the authentic Sikh martial art is questionable, even more so is the ideology within which this art has been advertised.

In light of the great skill in his art the various sceptics that exist out there may seem foolish, but some blatanat lies which have been posted on certain websites are also the scause of scepticism and caution. Furthermore, the apparent agenda signified by the use various titles that this art is given through the times has also made people high sceptical and cautios about the underlying matters at hand here. Regardless to what some students have been fed, there are still students of Baba Giana Singh (aka Rub Ji) alive today, a simple trip the Dal followed by a few enquiries you can find out who they are.

Here are some simple truths:

If one visits the Bidhi Chand Dal they can speak to the Singhs and Jathedars there and ask them about Baba Giana Singh Ji, this will provide clarification of whether or not there is such a thing as 'Sanatan Hindu Sikh Shastar Vidiya' and whether this is part of the Shiv Akhara. This terminlogy is certainly unique as is the whole theory and history of the akhara compared to what was taught by Baba Giana Singh. There are many Singhs alive who spent time with Baba Gian Singh kicking around in different Dals, all will laugh at a so called "Santan Hindu Sikh Shastar Vidya".

The martial expertise of Baba Santa Singh has been praised on the Shastarvidya site, there are many students alive who learnt from Baba Santa Singh Ji. There is also a book on Shastarvidiya written by Baba Gian Singh and published by Baba Santa Singh Ji. Do not be surprised if he find what the Budha Dal jathedars and leading practioners of Shastarvidya have written does not collarate to what is presented on Niddar Singhs websites.

With regards to Nidar Singhs position in the Budha Dal, those close to Baba Santa Singh Ji always had access to blank letters signed o thumb printed by Baba Santa Singh Ji, of course the problematic nature of this has become apparent in recent times with the Balbir Singh fiasco. When someone is given jathedari, they are given nishan nagaray and and official letter stating that the Budha Dal has issued nishan nagaray to the following person for xyz reason, this is the maryada. No such letter exists, what does is a letter from a friend of Niddar Singh thanking him for a camera in which he refers to Nidar Singh as Jathedar, this is not conclusive. Again to repeat, Budha Dal maryada is to formally present a jathedar with nishan and nagaray, something no one has stated has been done.

As well as being many changes to the terminlogy of shastarvidiya there are also condircting stories of how, from whom and when Nidar Singh learnt this. Furthermore there are various stories of Niddar Singhs herosim during the 80s etc, some of which I have heard from students I ask myself whether they actually believe it. Regardless of who has been responsible for these lies, the unfortunatel reality is lies sorround the teacher of Shastarvidiya in the UK and for that reason people will be sceptical of pretty much everything which sorrounds it. Particuarly as misinformation has been pesented on certain Sikh figures and organisation on their websites.

There is not much point dwelling on these points, anyone seeking further clarification should go to India and speak dirctly with Budha Dal Singhs and jathedars of other Dals. Theres no agenda or hatred towaards anyone here. Niddar Singh outstanding ability which he posses must be respected, however his website openly issues Hadh Torh challenges, why did he not accept any of the offers of Hadh Torh that Singhs made to him in India during 300 Sala? Both his supporters and opponents seem to be ignorant of or reluctant to ignore some simple truths.

Also can any students of shstarvidiya please give their views on whether the power of Gurbani provides ridhia sidia to Singhs in warfare?

[Malwe Da Sher]

AS drawrof mentioned the lineage of someone comes into account one one appears to deviate from a tradition. Something which the Budha Dal and Singhs close to Baba Gian Singh Rub Ji are concerned Nidar Singhs is doing.

[drawrof]

http://www.shastarvidiya.org/akhara.jsp

Here is the lineage...it isn't a secret.

[Malwe Da Sher]

The lineage is no secret, neither is the deviation from ideology and philosophy of ealier ustads that will become apparent when one speaks to the many Nihang Singhs alive who spent time with Baba Giana Singh. There are also some Taksali Singhs alive, some of whom spent years learning from Baba Giana Singh. Not to mentioned how those ustads were always under the authority of the Dal, whereas the Akhara today things its older than the Dal and not bound by jurisdiction.

Can a single reference from the various works on shastarvidiya written by Nihang Singh gianis and jathedars, or historcal texts revered by Nihangs Singh, be found even remotely suggesting that the Runjeet Akhara was ever also known as Shiv Akhara?

[Mithar]

One thing that is confusing, was Shastar Vidya or Jhatka Gatka known by all Nihangs prior to 1849 or was it even a secret art back then. There is an account of some Nihangs taking exception of the East India company sepoys taking out a shia procession through the streets of Amritsar and being badly mauled in the brawl. This is given as the reason for Maharaja Ranjit Singh modernising his army. These Nihangs were not just ordinary run of the mill Nihangs but they came from their choani near Akal Takht so one would guess that if any Nihangs in the 1800s would know SV it would have been these ones. Also if SV was so effective then why wasn't it also used in the modernised army of Maharaja Ranjit Singh?

Veerji, have you read Kushwant Singh's biography on Ranjit Singh? he gives a very interesting account of this incident which is not exactly in agreement with the popular beleif that the Nihangs were badly beaten up the Shia soldiers. I've heard that Maharaja Ranjit Singh decided to modernise his army after Holkar's larger army was defeated by the smaller (yet organised) British army.

[shaheediyan]

Again putting all the politics and conspiracy theories aside, I will say this: If Nidar Singh is a fraud, then he must be a genius, because certain aspects of the vidya that he teaches, most people have never even contemplated - here are a few examples:

Daara and Dhumalla raksha - As far as I have seen - the Chinese do not have techniques for this.

Gurbani raksha - I never even considere this until Nidar Singh showed me - what to do if a Gurdwara is attacked - how to protect Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,

Istri savya raksha - This vidya is excellent and is a must for all bibyan. The whole style is based around the differences in a womans physique, physical ability and vulnerability - many tips given are deep rooted in Punjabi culture, many Punjabi sayings are even derived from here...

These are just to name but a few - whatever is true or false, I am grateful to Nidar Singh for teaching me these - I have to this day not seen anyone else even mention these most basic and important aspects of protection for a Sikh.

[Matheen]

If one visits the Bidhi Chand Dal they can speak to the Singhs and Jathedars there and ask them about Baba Giana Singh Ji, this will provide clarification of whether or not there is such a thing as 'Sanatan Hindu Sikh Shastar Vidiya' and whether this is part of the Shiv Akhara. The terminlogy is certainly unique as is the whole theory and history of the akhara as was taught by Baba Giana Singh. There are many Singhs alive who spent time with Baba Gian Singh kicking around in different Dals, all will laugh at a so called "Santan Sikh Shastar Vidya".

The martial expertise of Baba Santa Singh has been praised on the Shastarvidya site, there are many students alive who learnt from Baba Santa Singh Ji. There is also a book on Shastarvidiya written by Baba Gian Singh and published by Baba Santa Singh Ji. Do not be surprised if he find what the Budha Dal jathedars and leading practioners of Shastarvidya have written does not collarate to what is presented on Niddar Singhs websites.

MDS, that was an excellent post. Is the book mentioned above still in publication, and what's it called?

The guy is good at what he does, only Waheguru knows why he feels the need to make up stories and all the rest of the stuff he does.

[Malwe Da Sher]

Shaheediyan im not denying the magnificene of what he teaches, but in terms of the ideology around which this has been constructed, "shiv akhara" etc, this is certainly not what the previous gurdevs of the Runjeet Akhara taught.

[tonyhp32]

This then begs the question as to why does he make these changes? He changes the name of the art from Jhatka Gatka to Shastarvidya to Sanatan Hindu Sikh Shastarvidya. The Akharas have now become Shiv Akharas. It does look like he is introducing a Hindu element into this so-called Sikh martial art.

As for the mythology that has been created around this art, one of the most patently false is the one about Guru Nanak having taught SV to Baba Budha. There is not a shred of evidence of this and there is no allusion to this in any of the Janamsakhis. Unless of course you think that Guru Nanak also wanted to keep this art a secret.

But then why is Niddar splashing this 'secret' art in the newspapers and on the internet. You can't have a secret art which it seems every tom dick and chris crudelli knows about!

[Malwe Da Sher]

Matheen, unfortunately much of the literature Budha Dal released over the past few decades were only printed in small amounts and available internally - thus its extremely dificult to get hold of, I have managed to track down a couple of people who have it so hopefully will get a copy soon.