Sikh Answers Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 I could have misunderstood. You wrote in your post if an upasakh do upasana of them by totally beleiving that their gurdev/ishatdev is vahiguroo ji in sargun form- he/shall eventually will get bhramgyan In Gurmat, sargun pooja/bout pooja and nirgun shabad chintan are both parvan If a bhagat does bhagtee of a devta in a form of an idol thinking it is his ishtdev or waheguru, would he not get brahmgyan according to you? Sargun worship always involves some type of form or idol. Sargun refers to maya or the creation which means sargun worship is worship of anything that is within maya. So anyone worshipping maya will never be able to rise above it. The creation is temporary and an illusion in a sense. Also, what is “bout pooja”? I took it as idol worship or “butt parasti”. sargun worship does not equal to idol worship, if upasakh does upasana of object/ idol believing it has jot of vahiguroo/chaitanta and recognizes that jot of vahiguroo is everywhere not just in that object or idol then that becomes sargun worship. Idol worship is idol worship. It does not matter whether one believes it is Waheguru itself or Jot of Waheguru. It still is idol worship and changing the terminology doesn’t make anything different. Besides Gurbani and Dasam Granth make it clear that there is no God in idol and one would not find anything in it. Guru Sahib called it “koor kriya” without any exception. Guru Sahib did not say “As long as you see Jot of Waheguru in idols, worshipping them is acceptable”. Bhagat Kabir Ji saw god in a dog. Guru Sahib saw him everywhere but neither advocated worshipping Waheguru in any type of form. Before Guru Sahib appeared, sargun pooja was widely practiced but Guru Sahib preached only nirgun pooja while preaching that Jot is everywhere. Could you provide some quotes from Gurbani and Vaars that sargun pooja is acceptable. Granted that Jot of Waheguru is everywhere but creation is not the creator. Gurbani rejects worshipping creation. Jot of Waheguru is also within humans and one can easily justify dehdhari gurudom using your argument. Please clarify. It would be much better if you explained from Gurbani so I can understand your viewpoint and perspective better. For karam naam and kirtam naam, one can watch the video lecture by Dr. Harbhajan Singh on youtube. The original topic is about what happens to those who worship idols. This Shabad provides the answer. ਗੋਂਡ ॥ ਭੈਰਉ ਭੂਤ ਸੀਤਲਾ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ ਖਰ ਬਾਹਨੁ ਉਹੁ ਛਾਰੁ ਉਡਾਵੈ ॥1॥ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਏਕੁ ਰਮਈਆ ਲੈਹਉ ॥ ਆਨ ਦੇਵ ਬਦਲਾਵਨਿ ਦੈਹਉ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਸਿਵ ਸਿਵ ਕਰਤੇ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ ਬਰਦ ਚਢੇ ਡਉਰੂ ਢਮਕਾਵੈ ॥2॥ ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥3॥ ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥4॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗਹੁ ਮੀਤਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਇਉ ਕਹੈ ਗੀਤਾ ॥5॥2॥6॥ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 An example of sargun worship is bowing down in front of Guru Granth Sahib ji, with full faith that Guru ji is a form of God. This is different from idol worship. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 isn't matha dekh a form of satkaar? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balbir Singh Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal! Dear all! Better care to meet someone through whom God reveals Himself as Nirgun and Sargun at the same time. Gurdev is singing. ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੈ ਜੀਉ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ निरगुणु सरगुणु हरि हरि मेरा कोई है जीउ आणि मिलावै जीउ ॥१॥ NirguNu SarguNu Hari Hari meraa koee he jeeo aaNi milaave jeeo. SGGS Ang 98 Balbir Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 /if an upasakh do upasana of them by totally believing that their gurdev/ishatdev is vahiguroo ji in sargun form- he/shall eventually will get bhramgyan In Gurmat, sargun pooja/bout pooja and nirgun shabad chintan are both parvan/ First of all, i think i should have use better word when i re-read my post in above quote, where i used sargun pooja and bout pooja in one breath which could be confusing for readers sorry that was not my intention. You said: Also, what is “bout pooja”? I took it as idol worship or “butt parasti”. Defination of idol worship: Upasakh doing upasana of idol/akhar/object, in its mindset limiting vahiguroo parbhram to just mere idol/akhar/object and get stuck in it by idolizing the idol/akhar/object. Such mindset is totally mocked as you rightfully posted quotes from gurbani above. However, gurbani does not debunk sargun parsara- jot of vahiguroo which exist in everything and sargun upasana- upasana of creator through creation. You said Sargun refers to maya or the creation which means sargun worship is worship of anything that is within maya. So anyone worshipping maya will never be able to rise above it. The creation is temporary and an illusion in a sense. It depends on the surti, if man is effected with maya, off course they will perceive sargun pasara as maya/ However once surti started getting attuned to see vahiguroo roop in sargun parsara, then it will see vahiguroo jot in sargun, as creator resides in creation just as smell reside in the flower as fire is hidden in the wood. But it all depends on the surti: As gurbani says: jehri surat tahi rahe jai || Here gurbani talks about sargun being very much part of nirgun parbhram. Defination of Sargun- As gurbani puts it- Sargun Nirgun Nirankar Sun Samadhi Aaap, Aaapie Kiya Nanaka Apaie Fer Jaap || Nirgun Tae Sargun Thiya (From Nirgun vahiguroo, sargun came). Eh Parpanch Parbrahm kee Leela|| (Parpanch is no other than sargun vahiguroo) Bazigar Jasie Baazi Paie Nana Roop Bhek Dekhlaie Sang Utar Thaimo Pasara Tab Ikaie Ikankara || Kavan Roop Dristio Binasio Kaithe Gayoo Oh Kath Dhayo || Jal Tai Utaie Anakh Taranga Kanakh bhookaie Bahu ranga Bij Bij Dekho Bahu Parkara Phul Pakaie Taie Ikankara || Sahet Gatava Mein Ek Akash Ghat Footaie Ohi Pargas || Ek moorat(i) anek darsan koon roop anek|| (Jaap) Thou, the One Entity, appearest as Many creating innumerable forms. Khel khel akhel khelan ant ko phir(i) ek||81|| After playing the world-drama, when Thou wilt stop the play, Thou wilt be the same One again.81. Anek hain|| Phir ek hain||43|| (Jaap Sahib) Jaise ek Dhoor taie Aneek Dhoor Poorat Hai (Sri Akaal Ustat Kabith) Dhoor Kaie Knuooka Pher Dhoor Hi Samahengaie || Jaise Ek Nad Tai Tarang Kuot Upjat Hai Paan Kaie Tarang, Sabhai Paan Hi Kehangaie || Taisaie Basaiv Roop Tai Abhoot Bhot Pargat Hoi Tahi Tai Upaj Sabhai Tahi mein Samahengaie || i ll add more shabad, as it comes along in my mind. In the meantime, please watch the video for more examples. Also read sri akaal ustat bani, its full with examples of sargun jot of vahiguroo. Defination of Sargun Pooja/upasana: Now discussion on sargun upasana is very deep and can be confusing at times may appear idol worship but its not depending on upasakh intentions and surti, so be patient with me while i try to explain how sargun is related to nirgun with gurbani quotes they cannot be separated, they are part of each other. I am not claiming i have ultimate understanding of sargun/nirgun upasana. However, based on reading discourses by sant mahapursh and katha of mahapursh backed up with gurbani, this is what i have discovered so far. Lets agree on one thing first, we are all on different surti, as gurbani suggest - jehri surat tahi rahe jai || I am not suggesting if one thinks by doing sargun upasana only one will get bhramgyan. Pooja of sargun is only one stage/first stage. Nirgun upasana is main aim in Gurmat. In Gurmat, we believe in kaival mukhti, surti should not stop after getting through all four types of mukhti through sargun bhakti as listed below. Many panj pyares gives jaigaso permission upon request of jaigaso to use picture of sri guru nanak dev ji or bring shabad in a form while they do simran of gurmantar. But most of them are also told sargun pooja is not main aim or goal, this is first step to help with the dhyaan. In most cases, after some time, naturally surti will rise above from sargun dhyaan into nirgun parbhram. However in some cases, if jaigaso surti is too attached with sarguna form of vahiguroo because of prema bhakti. Based on seeing prema bhakti of bhagat, vahiguroo will give jaigaso darshan in form of whichever saroop they were attached with, take their surti from its sargun saroop to its nirgun, that was point of my original post which i m reiterating now, note i have bold the terms like- eventually which implies its a first step or may not get direct bhramgyan which implies through nirgun, bhramgyan is possible. Regardless of avastha/status of devi/devta's, if an upasakh do upasana of them by totally believing that their gurdev/ishatdev is vahiguroo ji in sargun form as creator is resided in sargun(creation)- he/she shall eventually will get bhramgyan, they may not get direct bhramgyan but vahiguroo ji will give them darshan and take the jaiasgo surti from sargun and attach with its nirgun form. It all comes down to firm faith of jaigaso. As sri dasam patsah says- Jin Prem Kioo Tin Hi Prabh Paieo || Few gurbani quotes at the bottom will also prove even shabad is sargun saroop, those who do abhyas of shabad only are also in sargun realm until off course their surti rises above from sargun into nirgun where there is no shabad and guess what? sometimes it does not naturally, because they get stuck in it also because they start idolizing shabad. Main point of my post, sargun upasana is a first step, essential step in order to get to nirgun. Sarguna is interconnected with nirgun cannot be separated. Main aim in gurmat is reaching nirgun but through sargun at the first stages. Hence, both sargun upasana in first stages of abhyaas and nirgun upasana at advance stages are parvan in gurmat. 1. In the shabad, below guru arjan dev ji shares how their nine types of sargun bhagti. However at the end, guru maharaj stresses - he alone is bhagat when lord unites the bhagat with himself, at the end guru maharaj says he is not against different types of bhagti nor he is for it. He has left based on one's pure intentions/prem/surti. ਭਗਤਿ ਨਵੈ ਪਰਕਾਰਾ ॥ bhagath navai parakaaraa || There are nine forms of devotional worship. 9 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਵੇਦੁ ਪੁਕਾਰਾ ॥ panddith vaedh pukaaraa || The Pandits recite the Vedas. 9 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev ਗਿਰਸਤੀ ਗਿਰਸਤਿ ਧਰਮਾਤਾ ॥੪॥ girasathee girasath dhharamaathaa ||4|| The householders assert their faith in family life. ||4|| 9 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev ਇਕ ਸਬਦੀ ਬਹੁ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਵਧੂਤਾ ॥ eik sabadhee bahu roop avadhhoothaa || Those who utter only One Word, those who take many forms, the naked renunciates, 9 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev ਕਾਪੜੀ ਕਉਤੇ ਜਾਗੂਤਾ ॥ kaaparree kouthae jaagoothaa || the wearers of patched coats, the magicians, those who remain always awake, 10 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev ਇਕਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਤਾ ॥੫॥ eik theerathh naathaa ||5|| and those who bathe at holy places of pilgrimage-||5|| 10 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev ਨਿਰਹਾਰ ਵਰਤੀ ਆਪਰਸਾ ॥ nirehaar varathee aaparasaa || Those who go without food, those who never touch others, 10 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev ਇਕਿ ਲੂਕਿ ਨ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਦਰਸਾ ॥ eik look n dhaevehi dharasaa || the hermits who never show themselves, 11 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev ਇਕਿ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਗਿਆਤਾ ॥੬॥ eik man hee giaathaa ||6|| and those who are wise in their own minds-||6|| 11 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev ਘਾਟਿ ਨ ਕਿਨ ਹੀ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ ghaatt n kin hee kehaaeiaa || Of these, no one admits to any deficiency; 11 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev ਸਭ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੈ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ sabh kehathae hai paaeiaa || all say that they have found the Lord. 11 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev ਜਿਸੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਸੋ ਭਗਤਾ ॥੭॥ jis maelae so bhagathaa ||7|| he alone is a devotee, whom the Lord has united with Himself. ||7|| Nine different types of sargun bhagti (from sikhi perspective): Sarvan Bhakti- Listen to Katha with full concentration. Kirtan Bhakti- Signing Hymns Of Gurbani with full concentration. Simran Bhakti- Doing bhakti alone.. reciting on gurmantar or vaheguroo, maala-naam jaap. Namskar Bhakti- Doin Namskar (Humbly Bow Down) to guru granth sahib ji and be inferior to everyone even animals not just gursikhs..every living being.. vahegurooo Archan Bhakti- sprinkle essence/flower where one bows in front of sri guru granth sahib ji. Ardas- Humbly Praying to akal purkh(god) before any important task to do. Dasam Pab- Be Inferior And Praise Gurus as highest of the high Sakhaya Sakhi Pab- Love vaheguroo like from one mitr(freind) to another mitr(freind) Atam Nividan- Scarifice everything to vaheguroo.. its everything... basically completely surrender to vaheguroo ji....tan , dhan and mann completely scarifice to vaheguroo 2. Gur ki moorat man meh dhyan " "Gur ka shabad mantar man maan"/ Bhai Gurdas ji says- Gur moorat gur shabad hai, sadh sangat mil amrit vela. [Var 24, stanza 11.] Guru’s form is his shabad, which can be obtained in early morning holy congregation. Gur moorat gur shabad hai, sadh sangat samsar parwana. [Var 24, stanza 15.] Guru’s form is shabad.The shabad and sadh sangat is one and the same. Gur moorat gur shabad sun, sadh sangat asan nirankari. Gur moorat in form of shabad/dhuni itself is sargun in its nature because of akhar and dhuni being shakshum saroop of sargun. In Nirgun there is no shabad/naam or even dhuni (4 types of bani), its just gyan. Nirgun paratama is above from all shabad/mantar/naam/dhuni as jaap sahib and sri akaal ustat suggest - Namastang nrinaame|| Namastang nrikaame||, Anaam hain|| Akaam hain||30|| Anangoo anaame|| Samastoo saroope|| ,Achhedoo abhedoo anaamang akaamang||, Naam thaam na jaat(i) jaakar roop rang na rekh||, ਨ ਤੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਨ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਨ ਜੰਤ੍ਰ ਕੋ ਸਰੂਪ ਹੈ ॥न तंत्र है न मंत्र है न जंत्र को सरूप है ॥ He is neither Tantra , nor a mantra nor the form of Yantra. (Akaal Ustat). One can only recognize nirgun through anubhav parkash. Many Sikhs use sargun upasana as first stage in abhyaas be it akhar, vairaat saroop, object or surti attuning to dhuni (shuksham form of shabad ) then gyan of shabad ,and finally isthi in nirgun through anubhav parkash. Shabad is sargun due to akhar/shuksham connations and also based on above quotes from jaap sahib/akaal ustat, shabad also means vahiguroo because of gyan it provides. At bhramgyan/nirgun- Birthi/Surti negates akhar sargun vahiguroo shabad, however akhar which indicates attributes of Vahiguroo-gyan doesnt get destroyed, birthi/surti resides there. Eh akhar kirh jaingaie, vo akhar inn mein nahi | Akhar Dristh Man Jaita Nanak Parbhram Nirlaipa || Here is the avastha for those, who have taken asra of sargun bhagti in the first step : ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਏਕੁ ਏਕੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ॥ breham dheesai breham suneeai eaek eaek vakhaaneeai || ਆਤਮ ਪਸਾਰਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੀਐ ॥ aatham pasaaraa karanehaaraa prabh binaa nehee jaaneeai || If a bhagat does bhagtee of a devta in a form of an idol thinking it is his ishtdev or waheguru, would he not get brahmgyan according to you? No he/she will not get bhramgyan only by thinking or doing upasana of devta. While having faith in something as jot of vahiguroo is very important(first step) but without nidhasana effort (seva/simran), all goes in vain. I am not suggesting that people who do bhagti of devi/devta and stuck in the first step gets bhramgyan, as i myself posted discourse give to janak singh by sant jawala singh ji where it explained how dhyaan of only objects can lead to four types of mukhti but kaival mukhti as gurmat sidhant beleives in. Bhagats of devta's can lead to kaival mukhti also however they must rise their surti above from all different types of mukhti and attach with shabad of respective dharam try to reach nirgun through gyan of shabada. Here is what i posted before through sakhi: Foccusing on dhyan, and going down that route alone, one will not achieve moksh (Salvation). There are 4 types that you will get to though. They are 1)salok muktee: the form (vyagtheegat) you focus on, you can get to their realm. Ie. Shivji-shivlok, brahmaji-brahmlok 2)smeep muktee: that form that you focus on, you can get close to it, but never fully become part of it 3)saroop muktee: you will become like the form that you worship, but you won’t be the form. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balbir Singh Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal! Dear all and N30 SINGH Jee! This is a good post from you. An important thing is to reconsider from your post. You wrote "however they must rise their surti above from all different types of mukhti and attach with shabad of respective dharam try to reach nirgun through gyan of shabada." Here is God's Grace that plays the key role not anybody's efforts, in my experience. Balbir Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal! Dear all and N30 SINGH Jee! This is a good post from you. An important thing is to reconsider from your post. You wrote "however they must rise their surti above from all different types of mukhti and attach with shabad of respective dharam try to reach nirgun through gyan of shabada." Here is God's Grace that plays the key role not anybody's efforts, in my experience. Balbir Singh I totally agree with you there veer balbir singh ji, during course of discussing all these technicalities one thing remains firm and important, without it nothing is possible , which is Gurparsad. I should have emphasis importance of Gurparsad in my previous post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Great post Neo bhaji......explains in very good wording for all those who equates idol worship (limiting GOD to that stone) with sargon puja. Thanks for such a gr8 post. To add something from Mahapurash bachans: "Who always argue over "bout parsti or bout puja"; they just argue; everyone can argue but the problem is how to control your Mann and concentrate; no one can concentrate on Nirgun directly e.g can one concentrate on sky?? Anything which has any shape is called bout......those who argue over bout, do NOT they love their homes, money, property, wife, children, father, mother, and other worldly creation object; and if the answer is yes, then this is also bout parasti......and secondly, this type of bout parasti (loving family etc.) takes the man to many different 84 lakh joonis as per Gurbani.........but the bout of Waheguru takes us to the Nirgun Brahm." If we think that Nirgun Brahm ONLY resides in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then we are wrong too, in this case aren't we just doing murti puja that all our Gurus condemned?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valli singh Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Guru Granth Sahib ji is different because we are bowing to the Word of God which it embodies, unlike worshipping an idol of Krishna which is directed at Vishnu alone. I might be wrong, but this is my understanding: If we argue that Nirgun ONLY resides in ITS Word, and we have the GOD and there is NO need to do Naam/Dan/Isnan as ordered in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then it is the same as normal morte puja. As per Mahapurash's words: Even shabad cannot reach WAHEGURU Nirankar. WAHEGURU shabad canNOT reach Nirankar. "Waheguru" Naam is helping us to reach Nirankar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valli singh Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikh Answers Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 However, gurbani does not debunk sargun parsara- jot of vahiguroo which exist in everything and sargun upasana- upasana of creator through creation. Sargun pasara and sargun worship are two different things. While sargun pasara is accepted in Gurbani (in fact only Satguru preached this during that time), sargun pooja is not supported. I would appreciate you providing some Shabads which advocate sargun pooja. It depends on the surti, if man is effected with maya, off course they will perceive sargun pasara as maya/ However once surti started getting attuned to see vahiguroo roop in sargun parsara, then it will see vahiguroo jot in sargun, as creator resides in creation just as smell reside in the flower as fire is hidden in the wood. But it all depends on the surti: Word Sargun is defined as ਸਰਗੁਨ - ਗੁਨ ਸਹਿਤ, ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਰਜੋ ਤਮੋ ਸਤੋ ਤਿੰਨੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਹੋਣ । Those who worship sargun will never rise above the maya because they are worshipping the creation (maya) and not nirgun. One cannot rise above something they are worshipping. It is irrational to assume that one worshipping creation will have their surti above it. Mind of the devotee is concentrated or absorbed in something that is being worshipped and never above it. Nirgun worship will result in devotee seeing Jot everywhere and have darshan of Waheguru everywhere and will experience hearing Shabad dhunni in every movement of nature (fire, water, babiha, etc). This is why Guru Sahib, Bhagats and gursikhs worshipped Nirgun Waheguru and saw His Jot everywhere. Then they called the creation a mere illusion or a tamasha. Once they had become one with Nirgun Waheguru they saw Him everywhere: ਸਭ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਜਗਜੀਵਨਾ ਤੂ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗ ਰੰਗਨਾ ॥ Defination of Sargun- As gurbani puts it- Sargun Nirgun Nirankar Sun Samadhi Aaap, Aaapie Kiya Nanaka Apaie Fer Jaap || The Saloak and the Astpaddi is about Waheguru becoming from Afur to Safur. He said one word (Ik kawayo) and the creation came into existence. This means that He created everything and His Jot is everywhere. This entire Astpadi does not advocate sargun worship. In fact it supports Nirgun worship because Guru Sahib says that the Lord is the one who created everything and whose light shines throughout the creation then why not worship this great one. Gurbani is teaching us to worship the great one not something he created. Nirgun Tae Sargun Thiya (From Nirgun vahiguroo, sargun came). This Shabad from Sidh Goast is also not any different. Nirgun became Sargun which means He created everything. Sargun refers to creation which is entrapped by maya jaal. The same Shabad says: ਏਕੇ ਕਉ ਸਚੁ ਏਕਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ਥੀਆ ॥ This makes it clear that a true Sikh realizes that there is only one truth, the ultimate truth and he is realized through the Shabad Guru. No sign of sargun worship. Eh Parpanch Parbrahm kee Leela|| (Parpanch is no other than sargun vahiguroo) In this Shabad Bhagat Naamdev Ji says that he sees Gobind everywhere and this soojh bhoojh was blessed to him by Satguru. Shabad says that people are influenced by maya and believe that this world is permanent and they are absorbed in it but in fact this world (Parpanch) is simply a tamasha (leela) of Waheguru and this is all temporary. By the grace of Satguru one wakes up from this dream and realizes that the great one is everywhere and He alone is permanent. Everything else is naaswant. This entire shabad does not even remotely mention sargun worship. It preaches Nirgun Waheguru worship who is the creator. Creation worship is not advocated. Creation is called a tamasha and temporary. Bazigar Jasie Baazi Paie Nana Roop Bhek Dekhlaie Sang Utar Thaimo Pasara Tab Ikaie Ikankara || Kavan Roop Dristio Binasio Kaithe Gayoo Oh Kath Dhayo || In this Shabad, creation is also called an act or a play (baazi). Guru Sahib says that Waheguru has created this act many times, created many forms and then destroyed them. Look at some important panktis: ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਓਿs ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥1॥ but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes, and then he is one, and only one. ||1|| ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਬਿਨਸਤ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਲੁ ਧੋਈ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੇਰੀ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥4॥1॥ He is imperishable; He will never pass away. He does not come, and He does not go. The Perfect Guru has washed away the filth of ego. Says Nanak, I have obtained the supreme status. ||4||1|| Clearly, Guru Sahib preaches to worship the supreme who does not come and go instead of attaching ourselves to creation which has been created and destroyed many times like a bubble in a water. Other Shabads you quoted also support Nirgun worship and reject sargun worship. Guru Sahib calls this world a khel, tamasha, an act, play, a wave in an ocean, a bubble in a water etc. Not a single pankti teaches us to worship the creation. Once again, His Jot is everywhere but worshipping creation is not mentioned or preached. I have read Akaal Ustat and everywhere His Jot is seen by Guru Sahib but at the end “Fir Ek Hain”. He is One and He alone is permanent. Creation goes away then why worship it? Guru Sahib preached to worship the Akaal that is always alive and permanent. Idol worship is idol worship not matter what one assumes. A poison is poison even if we mix it with honey. Action of a thief is still wrong even if he steals to donate the money. Similarly, idol worship is idol worship even if one assumes Waheguru is not limited to that idol. Could you provide your opinion on this pankti: ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਪੂਜਤ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਮੈ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ Why do you worship stones? The Lord-God is not within those stones; Guru Sahib calls himself “breaker of idols”. Clearly he did not see Waheguru in idols. Humans are better than idols, animals are better than idols but a mere stone is nothing. It gives no gyan. I think people are mistaking Shabad Roop Waheguru as Sargun saroop which is not correct. According to Bhai Nand Laal rehatnama, three roops of Satguru are defined “Nirgun, Sargun and Shabad”. Shabad and Nirgun are one because Bhai Gurdas Ji says that Waheguru Himself is Shabad and Shabad is Waheguru “Satgur Shabad, Shabad Hai Satgur”. Shabad or Dhunni does not come and go and is not part of maya jaal. Sargun is everything under maya but Shabad is above it because Gurbani is “Nirankar” (nir-akaar or formless). Shabad surat abhiyaas is nirgun not sargun. By singing Gurbani or jaap of gurmantar we are doing ustat of Akaal Purakh directly instead of doing ustat through a form or an idol. Hence, Gurbani is not sargun. those who do abhyas of shabad only are also in sargun realm until off course their surti rises above from sargun into nirgun where there is no shabad Bani is Nirankar and true saroop of Akal Purakh. You are putting limits to the power of Shabad by saying that Shabad can only take one to a certain height and then there is no Shabad. Gurbani takes us directly to Sachkhand. Read the sakhi of Himayu bird told by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Just like its wings took the arrow to its country, Gurbani will take the bhagat to Sachkhand from where it came. Gurbani is Sat Saroop. Sat or truth is nirgun. The Shabad about nine types of bhagtee does not support sargun worship. Guru Sahib describes that some do smadhee, some keep quiet, some absorb in dheyaan, some call themselves yogis, sanyasis etc but all have claimed to have darshan of Waheguru. Guru Sahib says he does not agree with it because only he can have darshan on whom Waheguru does kirpa. Guru Sahib describes the popular ways of the time to reach salvation but Guru Sahib gives his matt at the end. Rahao pankti supports prema bhagtee over all the nine ways described. 2. Gur ki moorat man meh dhyan " "Gur ka shabad mantar man maan"/ Bhai Gurdas ji says- Gur moorat gur shabad hai, sadh sangat mil amrit vela. [Var 24, stanza 11.] It is your opinion that shabad is sargun because it is also created but shabad is without any maya attributes whereas as picture, idol etc are part of maya. When one rises above sargun and absorbs in nirgun then how do they do bhagtee or meditate? How is the ustat done? Meditating upon shabad and having surtee in the dhunni is the Gurmat way because Shabad is Waheguru Himself and not just a creation. Eh akhar kirh jaingaie, vo akhar inn mein nahi | Akhar Dristh Man Jaita Nanak Parbhram Nirlaipa || I suggest reading entire Bavan Akhri would help. Bhagat Ji says, words cannot describe how great and powerful Waheguru is. He is beyond words. Guru Nanak Sahib also says the same in JapJi Sahib but again His ustat is also done through words. Limiting Him in words is one thing but doing His ustat in words is another. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikh Answers Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Here is the last portion of the post. For some reason it won't allow the entire post. We both agree that Jot of Waheguru is everywhere and within everyone. I understand you do not negate Nirgun and call it the ultimate goal in Gurmat. I disagree and I call it the only goal in Gurmat. You propagate that worship of anything that has Jot of Waheguru is sargun pooja and acceptable in Gurmat as long as one also does nidhaasna. Then please answer these questions. 1) What is the proof that Jot of Waheguru is in stones? Dasam Granth says otherwise and in Zafarnama Guru Sahib calls Himself “idol breaker”. 2) If one assumes that Indira Gandhi, Mir Mannu, Hitler, Massa Ranghar, Ashutosh, Bhanearawala, Radha Swami, Gurmit Ram Rahim etc all have Jot of Waheguru and therefore they should be worshipped. Would you concur that they are right and would you call it sargun pooja? Assume that their followers are also doing nidhaasna. Please explain. 3) Are animals and humans included in sargun pooja? 4) I have Jot of Waheguru within myself. Then shouldn’t I worship myself and call it sargun pooja? If no, why not? If yes, how would I escape from haumai? Please provide Gurbani proof that creation worship is acceptable. Guru Sahib taught us to Naam Japna which is not sargun worship. He said “Pooja Akal Ki” which is also not sargun. Also, please provide proof that Gurbani accepts Shabad saroop as sargun saroop. To add something from Mahapurash bachans: "Who always argue over "bout parsti or bout puja"; they just argue; everyone can argue but the problem is how to control your Mann and concentrate; no one can concentrate on Nirgun directly e.g can one concentrate on sky?? Anything which has any shape is called bout......those who argue over bout, do NOT they love their homes, money, property, wife, children, father, mother, and other worldly creation object; and if the answer is yes, then this is also bout parasti......and secondly, this type of bout parasti (loving family etc.) takes the man to many different 84 lakh joonis as per Gurbani.........but the bout of Waheguru takes us to the Nirgun Brahm." If we think that Nirgun Brahm ONLY resides in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then we are wrong too, in this case aren't we just doing murti puja that all our Gurus condemned?? This is simply foolish. That so-called mahapurash should’ve known that Sikhs do not worship money, home, wife, children etc. Idol worship is idolizing Waheguru in a form and worshipping it. Guru Granth Sahib is Shabad saroop of Waheguru. No Sikh believes that Waheguru is limited to Shabad because Waheguru Himself is the Shabad that pervades everywhere. Even shabad cannot reach WAHEGURU Nirankar. WAHEGURU shabad canNOT reach Nirankar. "Waheguru" Naam is helping us to reach Nirankar. In that case, Shabad can only take us as far as it goes which according to your mahapurash is below Waheguru. If Shabad cannot take us to Waheguru then what will? Consider these panktis: ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ 515 ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਬਣੀਐ ॥ 304 ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਹੁ ਕਢਾਏ ॥ 308 ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਚਨ ਬਚਨ ਹੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਾਧਰੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜਨਾਵੈਗੋ ॥5॥ 1309 ਧੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਆਈ ॥ 628 ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥ 722 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Thanks for your response Bijla Singh. I will respond to you shortly. I just like to quickly point out though reason its not letting you post all the response above in one post is because board have set maximum character limit in post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Bijla Singh, Before I respond to your post above. I just want to reiterate few things we have discussed already and also things i have discovered through understanding gurbani through mahapursh katha and books so there is no misunderstanding and misinterpretations. - I am not suggesting that by only doing sargun upasana only one will get bhramgyan. - Sargun upasana is parvan in gurmat at the first stage of simran/meditation as birthi which is sargun goes from sargun to shakshum sargun to nirgun. Nirgun upasana is main aim in Gurmat. - In Gurmat, we believe in kaival mukhti not four types - Sargun came from Nirgun, not other way around. Nirgun is main aim. Since we are sargun, our birthi/surti is also sargun. Our birthi have to go through sargun in order to get to nirgun(atma/paratama). Only Guru Maharaj/ bhramgyani karak can establish direct link with nirgun paratama with agadh/bodh. - I have proven in my previous post through many quotes from jaap sahib/ sri akaal ustat- even shabad/naam is not nirgun, even shabad is part of sargun because of akhar and yes gyan of shabad is nirgun vachak. There are many who call themselves nirgun vaddi abhyaasi at the starting they are also in realm of sargun in form of shabad, dhuni because our surti still travelling through shuksham mandals of sargun, birthi still not eishti in nirgun. They are no different than sargun pujaris of sargun vairat pasara. (Remember yogi may have a goal of reaching dasam dwar as final destination which is close to nirgun but not for sikhs since sikhs beleive fully esethi in nirgun). In this discussion we both agree, vahiguroo is everywhere and within everyone. Sargun pasara and sargun worship are two different things. While sargun pasara is accepted in Gurbani (in fact only Satguru preached this during that time), sargun pooja is not supported. I would appreciate you providing some Shabads which advocate sargun pooja. Word Sargun is defined as ਸਰਗੁਨ - ਗੁਨ ਸਹਿਤ, ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਰਜੋ ਤਮੋ ਸਤੋ ਤਿੰਨੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਹੋਣ । Those who worship sargun will never rise above the maya because they are worshipping the creation (maya) and not nirgun. One cannot rise above something they are worshipping. It is irrational to assume that one worshipping creation will have their surti above it. Mind of the devotee is concentrated or absorbed in something that is being worshipped and never above it. Nirgun worship will result in devotee seeing Jot everywhere and have darshan of Waheguru everywhere and will experience hearing Shabad dhunni in every movement of nature (fire, water, babiha, etc). This is why Guru Sahib, Bhagats and gursikhs worshipped Nirgun Waheguru and saw His Jot everywhere. Then they called the creation a mere illusion or a tamasha. Once they had become one with Nirgun Waheguru they saw Him everywhere: ਸਭ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਜਗਜੀਵਨਾ ਤੂ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗ ਰੰਗਨਾ ॥ Sargun parsara and sargun upasana may be two different terms. However they are inter-related, because, gurbani have praised sarguna through sarguna pasara. It showed us over and over again, how mindset of seeing vahiguroo in everything in the universe so to get rid of dvaish. Dhyaan of that sargun praise while doing simran definitely helps in the earlier stage for birthi getting more attuned towards nirgun. Since our surti is sargun, instead of establish a link direct to nirgun, one goes through sargun to nirgun There are many quotes from gurbani which praises sargun form of vahiguroo. Sometimes gurbani is not direct in this case sargun upasana, but gives ishara, sometimes ishara is enough for surti which have been cleansed. Here are some of the shabads, I will bold the parts we should both ponder upon: 1. bisar gee sabh thaath paraaee || I have totally forgotten my jealousy of others, 13 Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev jab thae saadhhasangath mohi paaee ||1|| rehaao || since I found the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. ||1||Pause|| 13 Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev naa ko bairee nehee bigaanaa sagal sang ham ko ban aaee ||1|| No one is my enemy, and no one is a stranger. I get along with everyone. ||1|| 14 Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev jo prabh keeno so bhal maaniou eaeh sumath saadhhoo thae paaee ||2|| Whatever God does, I accept that as good. This is the sublime wisdom I have obtained from the Holy. ||2|| 14 Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev sabh mehi rav rehiaa prabh eaekai paekh paekh naanak bigasaaee ||3||8|| The One God is pervading in all. Gazing upon Him, beholding Him, Nanak blossoms forth in happiness. ||3||8|| Above shabab talks about due to milaap of sadh sangat, discourses given by gurbani about attributes(sargun) of paratma. Dvaish from mind is gone, i have start accepting, all this i have realized- god is pervading in all, gazing upon - sargun beauty, bring forth happiness/anand(again sukhsham form of sargun divided in two mod, parmod). 2. nirankaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek || He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes. 11 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev ਏਕਹਿ ਏਕ ਬਖਾਨਨੋ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥ eaekehi eaek bakhaanano naanak eaek anaek ||1|| Describe the One Lord as One, and Only One; O Nanak, He is the One, and the many. ||1|| Sargun parsara is attributes of nirgun vahiguroo. It's totally ridiculous to suggest sargun upasana of that sargun parsara is bout pooja. 3. ਜਲੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਥਲੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਉਰੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਬਨੇ ਹਰੀ ॥੧॥੫੧॥ जले हरी ॥ थले हरी ॥ उरे हरी ॥ बने हरी ॥१॥५१॥ The Lord is in water. The Lord is on land. The Lord is in the heart. The Lord is in the forests.1.51. ਗਿਰੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਗੁਫੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਛਿਤੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਨਭੇ ਹਰੀ ॥੨॥੫੨॥ गिरे हरी ॥ गुफे हरी ॥ छिते हरी ॥ नभे हरी ॥२॥५२॥ The Lord is in he mountains. The Lord is in the cave. The Lord is in he earth. The Lord is in the sky. 2.52. ਈਹਾਂ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਉਹਾਂ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਜਿਮੀ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਜਮਾ ਹਰੀ ॥੩॥੫੩॥ ईहां हरी ॥ उहां हरी ॥ जिमी हरी ॥ जमा हरी ॥३॥५३॥ The Lord is in here. The Lord is there. The Lord is in the earth. The Lord is in the sky. 3.53. ਅਲੇਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਭੇਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਦੋਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਦ੍ਵੈਖ ਹਰੀ ॥੪॥੫੪॥ अलेख हरी ॥ अभेख हरी ॥ अदोख हरी ॥ अद्वैख हरी ॥४॥५४॥ The Lord is Ac countless. The Lord is guiseless. The Lord is blemishless. The Lord is sans duality. Here in Sri Akaal Ustat sahib- Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji maharaj gives example of vahiguroo in sargun vairaat roop. Right after that gurbani couplets, guru maharaj gives updesh importance of nirgun, as one must NOT get stuck in sargun only, as maharaj's birthi while reciting this couplet which is sargun goes from sargun into nirgun vahiguroo then again maharaj birthi naturally go back to sargun vairaat saroop dhyaan to show us again going back to nirgun parbhram for 16,000 times of tuhi tuhi. This is classic beautiful example of how birthi gets subtle/subtle from sargun goes into nirgun..anyway enjoy this..! ਜਲਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਥਲਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਨਦਿਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਨਦਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੧੩॥੬੩॥ जलस तुहीं ॥ थलस तुहीं ॥ नदिस तुहीं ॥ नदस तुहीं ॥१३॥६३॥ O Lord! Thou art water. O Lord! Thou art dry land.O Lord! Thou art the stream. O Lord ! Thou art the Ocean. 13.63 ਬ੍ਰਿਛਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਪਤਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਛਿਤਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਉਰਧਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੧੪॥੬੪॥ ब्रिछस तुहीं ॥ पतस तुहीं ॥ छितस तुहीं ॥ उरधस तुहीं ॥१४॥६४॥ O Lord! Thou art the tree. O Lord! Thou art the leaf. O Lord ! Thou art the earth. O Lord ! Thou art the sky. 14. 64. ਭਜਸ ਤੁਅੰ ॥ ਭਜਸ ਤੁਅੰ ॥ ਰਟਸ ਤੁਅੰ ॥ ਠਟਸ ਤੁਅੰ ॥੧੫॥੬੫॥ भजस तुअं ॥ भजस तुअं ॥ रटस तुअं ॥ ठटस तुअं ॥१५॥६५॥ O Lord! I meditate on Thee. O Lord! I meditate on Thee.O Lord! I repeat Thy Name. O Lord ! I worship Thee. 15.65. ਜਿਮੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਜਮਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਮਕੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਮਕਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੧੬॥੬੬॥ जिमी तुहीं ॥ जमा तुहीं ॥ मकी तुहीं ॥ मका तुहीं ॥१६॥६६॥ O Lord! Thou art the earth. O Lord! Thou art the sky.O Lord ! Thou art the Owner of the house. O Lord! Thou art the house Thyself. 16.66. ਅਭੂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਅਭੈ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਅਛੂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਅਛੈ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੧੭॥੬੭॥ अभू तुहीं ॥ अभै तुहीं ॥ अछू तुहीं ॥ अछै तुहीं ॥१७॥६७॥ O Lord! Thou art birthless. O Lord Thou art Fearless.O Lord ! Thou art Untouchabe. O Lord ! Thou art Invincible.17.67. ਜਤਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਤਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਗਤਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਮਤਸ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੧੮॥੬੮॥ जतस तुहीं ॥ ब्रतस तुहीं ॥ गतस तुहीं ॥ मतस तुहीं ॥१८॥६८॥ O Lord! Thou art the celibacy. O Lord! Thou art the means for a virtuous deed. O Lord! Thou art the salvation. O Lord! Thou art the Redemption. 18.68. ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੧੯॥੬੯॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥१९॥६९॥ O Lord! Everything art Thou, Everything Thou art. O Lord! Everything Thou art the salvation. O Lord ! Everything art Thou, Everything Thou art. O Lord! Everything Thou art. O Lord! Everything art Thou, Everything Thou art. 19.69. ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ॥੨੦॥੭੦॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥ तुहीं तुहीं ॥२०॥७०॥ O Lord! Everything art Thou, Everything Thou art. O Lord! Everything art Thou, Eveything Thou art. O Lord! Everything art Thou, Everything Thou art. O Lord! O Lord! Everything art Thou, Everything Thou art. 20.70. 4. You have posted that those who worship sargun while doing simran will never rise above maya because they are worshiping maya. Lets not even look that far, i think we can both agree mool mantra is vishesan of both nirgun and sargun. This will prove all the sikhs who call themselves direct abhyaasi of nirgun bhram and claim sargun abhyaas is bout pooja are unknowingly, totally oblivious at the fact they do sargun upasana by reciting mool mantar everyday as directed by panj pyares. Lets look at ik"ong"kar itself. Ik is vachak of nirgun, ong (rajo, tamo, sato- sargun), kar (above three gunas- nirgun bhram) satnaam (sargun- his name is truth), kartapurkh (palna of sristhi again sargun) nirbhau (fear none- attribute of sargun), nirvair (no enemy, attribute of sargun) akaal morat (timeless- attribute of nirgun), ajooni (does not take birth, attribute of nirgun), saihbhang (parkash roop, attribute of sargun) Gurparsad (grace of vahiguroo/guru maharaj - attribute of nirgun and sargun) || The Saloak and the Astpaddi is about Waheguru becoming from Afur to Safur. He said one word (Ik kawayo) and the creation came into existence. This means that He created everything and His Jot is everywhere. This entire Astpadi does not advocate sargun worship. In fact it supports Nirgun worship because Guru Sahib says that the Lord is the one who created everything and whose light shines throughout the creation then why not worship this great one. Gurbani is teaching us to worship the great one not something he created. Nirgun Tae Sargun Thiya (From Nirgun vahiguroo, sargun came). This Shabad from Sidh Goast is also not any different. Nirgun became Sargun which means He created everything. Sargun refers to creation which is entrapped by maya jaal. The same Shabad says: ਏਕੇ ਕਉ ਸਚੁ ਏਕਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ਥੀਆ ॥ This makes it clear that a true Sikh realizes that there is only one truth, the ultimate truth and he is realized through the Shabad Guru. No sign of sargun worship. Eh Parpanch Parbrahm kee Leela|| In this Shabad Bhagat Naamdev Ji says that he sees Gobind everywhere and this soojh bhoojh was blessed to him by Satguru. Shabad says that people are influenced by maya and believe that this world is permanent and they are absorbed in it but in fact this world (Parpanch) is simply a tamasha (leela) of Waheguru and this is all temporary. By the grace of Satguru one wakes up from this dream and realizes that the great one is everywhere and He alone is permanent. Everything else is naaswant. This entire shabad does not even remotely mention sargun worship. It preaches Nirgun Waheguru worship who is the creator. Creation worship is not advocated. Creation is called a tamasha and temporary. In this Shabad, creation is also called an act or a play (baazi). Guru Sahib says that Waheguru has created this act many times, created many forms and then destroyed them. Look at some important panktis: ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਓਿs ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥1॥ but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes, and then he is one, and only one. ||1|| ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਬਿਨਸਤ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਲੁ ਧੋਈ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੇਰੀ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥4॥1॥ He is imperishable; He will never pass away. He does not come, and He does not go. The Perfect Guru has washed away the filth of ego. Says Nanak, I have obtained the supreme status. ||4||1|| Clearly, Guru Sahib preaches to worship the supreme who does not come and go instead of attaching ourselves to creation which has been created and destroyed many times like a bubble in a water. As far as i can remember and i just double checked twice now in my previous post, I posted all these tuk to show how sargun is inter-related with nirgun not to show that somehow these tuk relates to sargun worship. Please re-read my post carefully before posting that i have post these tukhs to prove that these tukhs indicates sargun worship/upasana. Other Shabads you quoted also support Nirgun worship and reject sargun worship. Guru Sahib calls this world a khel, tamasha, an act, play, a wave in an ocean, a bubble in a water etc. Not a single pankti teaches us to worship the creation. Once again, His Jot is everywhere but worshiping creation is not mentioned or preached. I have read Akaal Ustat and everywhere His Jot is seen by Guru Sahib but at the end “Fir Ek Hain”. He is One and He alone is permanent. Creation goes away then why worship it? Guru Sahib preached to worship the Akaal that is always alive and permanent. Creation does not go back to satan, it goes back or/ annihlated into nirgun vahiguroo during parlo/maha parlo. Everything merges back in nirgun as upon creation, everything transcedent from nirgun to sargun, they are inter-connected it cannot be separated. Again i stand by corrected, gurmat at the first stages - sargun upasana is totally parvan because birthi of jaigaso is sargun, once birthi/surti becomes shakshum it starts slowly merging back to nirgun via gyan of the shabad. Idol worship is idol worship not matter what one assumes. A poison is poison even if we mix it with honey. Action of a thief is still wrong even if he steals to donate the money. Similarly, idol worship is idol worship even if one assumes Waheguru is not limited to that idol. Could you provide your opinion on this pankti: ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਪੂਜਤ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਮੈ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ Why do you worship stones? The Lord-God is not within those stones; I have already given you clear definition and distincation between bout pooja and sargun upasana. In case you miss it, here: Defination of idol worship: Upasakh doing upasana of idol/akhar/object, in its mindset limiting vahiguroo parbhram to just mere idol/akhar/object and get stuck in it by idolizing the idol/akhar/object. Such mindset is totally mocked as you rightfully posted quotes from gurbani above. However, gurbani does not debunk sargun parsara- jot of vahiguroo which exist in everything and sargun upasana- upasana of creator through creation. Guru Sahib calls himself “breaker of idols”. Clearly he did not see Waheguru in idols. Humans are better than idols, animals are better than idols but a mere stone is nothing. It gives no gyan. I agree with you there, idols are just idols. Nothing there. What matter is person who is looking at the idol. Idol term have quite bit of stigma. Lets replace idol with picture for sake of argument, its a same thing, idols can express samethings pictures can. So lets say picture, when you walk in langar hall you got picture of guru sahiban, shaheed singhs in different atmosphere, different forms doing different seva, It does invoke some sort of reaction in the mind- positive, motivation to do seva and simran. I know when i was newly into sikhi, pictures in langar hall of guru sahib, bhagats, puratan shaheeds had major impact on my establishment in spirituality within sikhI. I didn't bring imaginary pictures of guru sahiban while doing simran at all stages of my life, but starting there was a moment in my life where i took asra of sargun saroop of guru sahib while i did simran and its creation. Even to this day, the sikhs who claim they do nirgun bhram abhyaas, unknowingly, totally oblivious at the fact they do upasana of sargun when they do jaap of mool mantar. Anyway coming back to your logic. It's silly to assume guru maharaj was against pictures , guru maharaj clearly made mockery of those who have limited nirgun paratma in idols/pictures/akhar and shattered their pakhand into pieces by mocking their idols so they can de-attach themselves from mindset of vahiguroo resides in idol/pictures only into upper realm - nirgun paratma via shabad. If Guru Maharaj ji was against pictures outright (which reminds with sargun attributes) and not against people's mindset, then why have pictures at all in the langar, why don't you take shastar, go to your local gurdwara and break all the pictures, shatter them into pieces? by justifying if guru maharaj calls himselfs breaker of idols. I am his sikh, following the steps. If you want to follow that extreme and call everything which is sargun - baut pooja without taking upasakh surti into consideration (which should be main focus) then why stop there? drive a bulldozer and knock off the nishan sahibs, surely sikhs maitha taik to nishan sahib, again if we follow your logic thats bout pooja as well may be not for prolong period of time but the moment premi matha taiks to nishan sahib is difinately bring up nishan sahib in the dhyaan. If we follow your mindset which is misinterperation of guru sahib beleived in then each and every chores of sikh daily life can be consider bout pooja. I stand corrected, idol worship/bout pooja is when upsakh not idol/picture/akhar/icon but when upsakh limits vahiguroo ji into just mere idol/picture/akhar/icon.. Anything besides that can be consider appreciating sargun parsara of vahiguroo ji through sargun dhyaan. If you think its the idol/picture/akhar/icon is simply idol worship you going to run into major issues by going bit further from breaking idols to breaking pictures in the langar halls to breakin guru maharaj relics to knocking nishan sahibs because people cannot stop matha taiking to relics/nishan sahibs. I think people are mistaking Shabad Roop Waheguru as Sargun saroop which is not correct. According to Bhai Nand Laal rehatnama, three roops of Satguru are defined “Nirgun, Sargun and Shabad”. Shabad and Nirgun are one because Bhai Gurdas Ji says that Waheguru Himself is Shabad and Shabad is Waheguru “Satgur Shabad, Shabad Hai Satgur”. Shabad or Dhunni does not come and go and is not part of maya jaal. Sargun is everything under maya but Shabad is above it because Gurbani is “Nirankar” (nir-akaar or formless). Shabad surat abhiyaas is nirgun not sargun. By singing Gurbani or jaap of gurmantar we are doing ustat of Akaal Purakh directly instead of doing ustat through a form or an idol. Hence, Gurbani is not sargun. Shabad gyan is nirgun, shabad akhar is sargun and dhuni is sukhsham portion of sargun just like our shuksham sirar/indraie's. There is a maya then there is shud maya. Sargun bodies of avtars/bhramgyani karaks whether in form or in form of vairaat saroop are made out of shud satogun, dhyaan of shud satogun sargun saroop is not maya can automatically attach the surti of upsakh into nirgun bhram via shabad gyan when time comes. However dhyaan of sargun saroop of vahiguroo which is made of rajo, tamo, sato is only recommended for first steps of meditation as our birthi is sargun, slowly once birthi/surti becomes shakshum start slowly merging back to nirgun then birthi/surti resides in nirgun naturally. Its pretty ironic you mentioned bhai nand laal goya, did u know he was at one stage time of his life great sargun mast upasakh of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj. You will know when you read his poetry, amount of prem express towards sargun face of vahiguroo - gur avtar- sri guru gobind singh ji is totally mind blowing. Have a read at these poetries? I wonder if you would call his expression of love towards sargun form of gur avtar as boout pooja. anyway have a read: http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=7249 Bani is Nirankar and true saroop of Akal Purakh. You are putting limits to the power of Shabad by saying that Shabad can only take one to a certain height and then there is no Shabad. Gurbani takes us directly to Sachkhand. Read the sakhi of Himayu bird told by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Just like its wings took the arrow to its country, Gurbani will take the bhagat to Sachkhand from where it came. Gurbani is Sat Saroop. Sat or truth is nirgun. The Shabad about nine types of bhagtee does not support sargun worship. Guru Sahib describes that some do smadhee, some keep quiet, some absorb in dheyaan, some call themselves yogis, sanyasis etc but all have claimed to have darshan of Waheguru. Guru Sahib says he does not agree with it because only he can have darshan on whom Waheguru does kirpa. Guru Sahib describes the popular ways of the time to reach salvation but Guru Sahib gives his matt at the end. Rahao pankti supports prema bhagtee over all the nine ways described. It is your opinion that shabad is sargun because it is also created but shabad is without any maya attributes whereas as picture, idol etc are part of maya. When one rises above sargun and absorbs in nirgun then how do they do bhagtee or meditate? How is the ustat done? Meditating upon shabad and having surtee in the dhunni is the Gurmat way because Shabad is Waheguru Himself and not just a creation. Only anubhav gyan/shabad gyan is nirgun bhram. As jaap sahib talk about anubhav parkash, gyan in the first chand, nothing else. Vahiguroo shabad in form of akhar is sargun, ten dhuniyas*/dasam dvar is also shuksham form of sargun which take the surti to door step of nirgun but not inside in nirgun house (analogy) but surti still have to by pass dhuniya and dasam dvar in order for premanent eshti in nirgun parbhram. Shabad/naam/dhuni/dasam dvar helps the surti connect with nirgun parbhram but its not nirgun itself as nirgun is above from naam as jaap sahib clearly explains tuks i posted before. All the nine bhakti is stages leading towards the prema bhakti and are form of prem bhakti, please re-read 9th stage which is atam nivadan, true form of bhakti- prema bhakti. *Ten Dhunis are- Listening of 10 types of celestial sound in dasam dwara(tenth door) They are: 1. Bhavri Gunjar 2. Gunroo Awaaz 3. Sankh Awaaz 4. Gantak Awaaz. 5. Kaisaiyaa Di Awaaz 6. Morli di Awaaz 7. Baraiya Di Awaaz 8. Dholk Di Awaaz 9. Nafiri Di Awaaz, 10.Sher Ja Badal Di Gargaj. These dhuniyas are pretty much part of shuksham sargun vachak and are tat/elements of air, they are not nirgun vachak, there are no dhuniyas, panch shabad in nirgun mandal. Nirgun mandal is above from shabad, dhuniya and even dasam dvara, just search for nirgun in gurbani, you will find it there. I suggest reading entire Bavan Akhri would help. Bhagat Ji says, words cannot describe how great and powerful Waheguru is. He is beyond words. Guru Nanak Sahib also says the same in JapJi Sahib but again His ustat is also done through words. Limiting Him in words is one thing but doing His ustat in words is another. Thats exactly my point, words cannot be describe nirgun parbhram. This tukh seals everything: Eh akhar kirh jaingaie, vo akhar inn mein nahi | Akhar Dristh Man Jaita Nanak Parbhram Nirlaipa || Here is the last portion of the post. For some reason it won't allow the entire post. We both agree that Jot of Waheguru is everywhere and within everyone. I understand you do not negate Nirgun and call it the ultimate goal in Gurmat. I disagree and I call it the only goal in Gurmat. You propagate that worship of anything that has Jot of Waheguru is sargun pooja and acceptable in Gurmat as long as one also does nidhaasna. Then please answer these questions. 1) What is the proof that Jot of Waheguru is in stones? Dasam Granth says otherwise and in Zafarnama Guru Sahib calls Himself “idol breaker”. 2) If one assumes that Indira Gandhi, Mir Mannu, Hitler, Massa Ranghar, Ashutosh, Bhanearawala, Radha Swami, Gurmit Ram Rahim etc all have Jot of Waheguru and therefore they should be worshipped. Would you concur that they are right and would you call it sargun pooja? Assume that their followers are also doing nidhaasna. Please explain. 3) Are animals and humans included in sargun pooja? 4) I have Jot of Waheguru within myself. Then shouldn’t I worship myself and call it sargun pooja? If no, why not? If yes, how would I escape from haumai? Please provide Gurbani proof that creation worship is acceptable. Guru Sahib taught us to Naam Japna which is not sargun worship. He said “Pooja Akal Ki” which is also not sargun. Also, please provide proof that Gurbani accepts Shabad saroop as sargun saroop. 1. I never said there is indeed jot of vahiguroo in stones as its jar maya but one perceive that way based on the surti as it may invoke certain emotion same thing with pictures of guru sahiban, puratan shaheeds/shaheeds even though they are jaar maya but depends how one perceives them, as everything sargun we see invokes an emotion be it positive/negative. 2. I thought we were focusing on jot of vahiguroo/attributes of sarguna not individual worship. Regardless how demonic above characters are and their actions, fact remains they still have/had jot of vahiguroo as chaintanta, from bhramgyani perspective there is no enemy or freind because of its nirvair, nirbhau nature. Bhai Ghaniya ji saw bhram in everyone. I am sure such demonic characters by actions as you mentioned were there in the field where bhai sahib ji giving water and medical supplies. I am not suggesting they should be worshiped but i think you got my point especially when i gave you example of bhai kahniya ji giving water and medical supplies to khalsa army enemy? 3, 4). Attributes my freind, dhyan of attributes of whole sarguna parsara is consider sargun upasana. I have provided enough quotes from gurbani support specific school of thought in the panth which beleives, at starting be it upasakh of akhar/shabad, picture, idol of avtars/bhramgyanis, listeners of dhuniya and getting anand itself are all comes under in sargun realm and shuksham sargun realm while doing simran since at the starting, human birthi is sargun, slowly as time progresses that birthi becomes shakshum start rising above from sargun realm to shuksham sargun realm and finally into nirgun parbhram. So, this is my last post on this topic. We have discussed our khoj of gurmat on this forum. Its not important to think i m right or you are wrong or vice versa or both are right or both are wrong in this discussion, you are right based on your surti and your own khoj, i m right based on my surti and based on my understanding of reading discourses and listening of katha of mahapursh of gurbani/gurmat tat as we both still on the path doing khoj and discovering finest tat of gurmat, we are both looking at the same glass, our perception of looking at the glass is different, you may be seeing half empty and i may be seeing half full. Anyway lets the readers decide the rest. Anand Mangal ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Great post Neo bhaji......explains in very good wording for all those who equates idol worship (limiting GOD to that stone) with sargon puja. Thanks for such a gr8 post. To add something from Mahapurash bachans: "Who always argue over "bout parsti or bout puja"; they just argue; everyone can argue but the problem is how to control your Mann and concentrate; no one can concentrate on Nirgun directly e.g can one concentrate on sky?? Anything which has any shape is called bout......those who argue over bout, do NOT they love their homes, money, property, wife, children, father, mother, and other worldly creation object; and if the answer is yes, then this is also bout parasti......and secondly, this type of bout parasti (loving family etc.) takes the man to many different 84 lakh joonis as per Gurbani.........but the bout of Waheguru takes us to the Nirgun Brahm." I don't agree with the Mahpursh here. I don’t think it is necessary to focus on some image (idol) in our head during meditation. Are we not supposed to focus our concentration on the Gurmantra? Not on some image, but to clear the mind of all images (make it blank) and listen with our ears with full concentration on the Gurmantra as we repeat it from our mouth and with abyaas that concentration will become more and more sharp and from there that will take one to advanced steps as we spiritually progress. No need to focus on some image when we have the Gurmatra to focus on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 In that case, Shabad can only take us as far as it goes which according to your mahapurash is below Waheguru. If Shabad cannot take us to Waheguru then what will? Consider these panktis: Bija Singh Ji I don't have the scholarly knowledge as you have. I think that Neo's posting already answered your all questions. But let us discuss this. "Waheguru" shabad is the ultimate mantar which WILL help us to reach GOD. "Waheguru Naam Jahaj Hai, Chare so utre par". Whosoever jaap Waheguru will be saved from this sansar samundar. e.g If we want to reach a house at another end of the ocean, then a big mighty boat can help us to cross the ocean. But after reaching the house, there is NO need for the boat to enter the house, in fact it is NOT created to be in house. Same way, "Waheguru" shabad is here to help us to cross this world ocean and drop us in the house of Waheguru/God/Allah/any other name. The way you're understanging "Waheguru", aren't you just limiting GOD to a shabad "Waheguru"?? I don't agree with the Mahpursh here. I don’t think it is necessary to focus on some image (idol) in our head during meditation. Are we not supposed to focus our concentration on the Gurmantra? Not on some image, but to clear the mind of all images (make it blank) and listen with our ears with full concentration on the Gurmantra as we repeat it from our mouth and with abyaas that concentration will become more and more sharp and from there that will take one to advanced steps as we spiritually progress. No need to focus on some image when we have the Gurmatra to focus on. I think you took the words in wrong sense. I never said that concentrating on some image (idol) is must. Let me explain in detail. But before that I would like to request you one thing that "Please do NOT write/think this way: I don't agree with the Mahpursh here". I'm saying this NOT to prove that my Mahapurash is the best. But I am requesting this for your and mine betterment by NOT indulging in the against things for Mahapurashs. Mahapurashs are Mahapurash, they are NOT mine or yours.....They are Waheguru's treasure. Anyways, in order to reach Waheguru, we need to have 3 things: Simran, Gyan, Dhayan. Dhayan/Concentration is must in order to attain something. But the question is whose Dhayan/Concentration is allowed in Sikhism. In Sikhism, Dhayan should be of the Guru (Guru Granth Sahib Ji). It is never said the dhayan on idol is must. If you concentrate on Gurmantar, then you agree that Dhayan on something is must otherwise we cannot aim on nothing. When we concentrate on Gurmantar (or any shabad in Guru Granth Sahib Ji), we are NOT concentrating on Nirgun. We're still concentrating on Sargun. It is because Gurmantar was given to us in the form of word and is also written. There are various techniques to concentrate: e.g the technique that you wrote (concentration on Gurmantar); another technique to concentrate on Mool-mantar etc.; another technique to concentrate on Waheguru mantar etc. etc. But if some person in another religion is concentrating on some think having more physical aspect to it (thinking that it is concentrating on Nirgun and NOT limiting GOD to that particular object), then it is NOT wrong. e.g Bhagat Namdev Ji had the vision of Raab 72 in Sakar Roop. Once a Sadhu said to Bhagat Namdev that you are Kacha. Then Bhagat Namdev felt bad and thought why he is kacha even though he had the darshan of Raab so many times. Then Bhagat Namdev remembered GOD and HE appeared before him and told him to go to another saint to sort out his question. When Bhagat Namdev went to see that saint, he saw that the saint was standing on Salgram (Vishu's worshipping stone). Bhagat Namdev thought that how could he answer my question, he himself is doing very wrong as he is standing on GOD. Then the saint stopped him by saying that God has sent you here, so ask me. Then Bhagat Namdev first asked that you are standing on GOD (Salgram). At this the saint told Bhagat Namdev to place his feet somewhere where there is NO GOD. Then that saint told him that this is the reason that another Sadhu called you Kacha because you are limiting GOD to one particular object. At this point, Bhagat Namdev understood everything and attained the full Gyan (Brahmgyan) and he then uttered the shabad: "Ram bole Ram bole Ram bolda, sabna gata de wich Ram bolda". The meaning of the above mentioned sakhi is that even tough Bhagat Namdev worshipped Salgram (something in maya), but in order to attain the Paka/Pure status he had to understand the full meaning and it is the Salgram (Vishnu) who directed him to a source that explained him that GOD NOT only resides in Salgram. He is sarab-vapak. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valli singh Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikh Answers Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Neo Singh, your last post made some things clearer for me to understand your viewpoint. However, I disagree with some points while agreeing with other points. This post should make it clear for you what my viewpoint is. - Sargun upasana is parvan in gurmat at the first stage of simran/meditation as birthi which is sargun goes from sargun to shakshum sargun to nirgun. Nirgun upasana is main aim in Gurmat. This would be a true statement only if Gurbani proof was provided. Stating that sargun is saroop of Waheguru does not prove that sargun must be worshipped. I would also like to see where in Gurbani it is stated that first stage is sargun pooja and then one moves on to nirgun. Also, when one rises to nirgun pooja, what happens then? How does one do ustat of Akal Purakh and gets naam rass? If Naam is only sargun then clearly Naam cannot take us to nirgun. It will take us as far as it goes and that is end of sargun. Gurbani states that Naam is roop of Nirgun Waheguru and there is no difference. It has no form and it is not an object. It is above rajo, tamo and sato maya gunns. This is why it is not sargun and capable of taking us to sachkhand and make “joti jot ralee..” possible. Sargun came from Nirgun, not other way around.…..Only Guru Maharaj/ bhramgyani karak can establish direct link with nirgun paratama with agadh/bodh. This I disagree with. According to your opinion, one has to go through sargun pooja to become a brahmgyani and then establish a connection with nirgun. If one has to be a brahmgyani to do nirgun pooja then how does one become a brahmgyani without doing sargun pooja? Satguru Ji showed us the direct path. Pooja Akal Ki by doing naam japp. No form, no idol, no demi gods, pkahand etc. Direct link to Jot Shabad saroop Akaal. This is nirgun. - I have proven in my previous post through many quotes from jaap sahib/ sri akaal ustat- even shabad/naam is not nirgun, even shabad is part of sargun because of akhar and yes gyan of shabad is nirgun vachak. Shabads you posted only show that Waheguru is everywhere. Not a single line advocated worshiping the creation. All the Shabads praise Akaal Purakh because He is everywhere. Sargun parsara and sargun upasana may be two different terms. However they are inter-related, because, gurbani have praised sarguna through sarguna pasara. Not two different terms but two different things. Human is inter-related to Waheguru because Jot is within a human but they are different. Human is not Waheguru just like a drop of water is not an ocean. Anyways, let’s discuss the Shabad: naa ko bairee nehee bigaanaa sagal sang ham ko ban aaee ||1|| No one is my enemy, and no one is a stranger. I get along with everyone. ||1|| 14 Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev jo prabh keeno so bhal maaniou eaeh sumath saadhhoo thae paaee ||2|| Whatever God does, I accept that as good. This is the sublime wisdom I have obtained from the Holy. ||2|| 14 Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev sabh mehi rav rehiaa prabh eaekai paekh paekh naanak bigasaaee ||3||8|| The One God is pervading in all. Gazing upon Him, beholding Him, Nanak blossoms forth in happiness. ||3||8|| In this Shabad, the essence is that Waheguru is within everyone and His Jot shines everywhere and for this reason no one is the enemy. It does not state that since His Jot is within the creation, the creation deserve to be worshipped. Thank you for posting Akaal Ustat Bani. I try to do its paath everyday. I enjoy it very much and what I understand is that Guru Sahib sees His Jot everywhere. He sees His darshan in sargun (creation). But think about it again, who does Guru Sahib praise? Obviously, Akaal Purakh. This is why it is called Akaal Ustat. Creation is not praised. I will post it in Punjabi to highlight the small but significant difference between your and my understanding. ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੂੰ ਸਿਮਰੋ ਜੋ ਕਿ ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਰਮਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ ਨਾ ਕਿ ਉਸ ਰਚਨਾ ਨੂੰ ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਉਹ ਰਮਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ । ਉਸਨੂੰ ਰਚਨਾ ਵਿਚ ਦੇਖ ਕੇ ਉਸਦੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਰਨੀ ਅਤੇ ਰਚਨਾ ਦੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਰਨੀ ਦੋ ਅਲੱਗ ਅਲੱਗ ਕਰਮ ਹਨ ਇੱਕ ਨਹੀਂ । I believe that this creation is simply a tamasha, an act or play or “mrig trishna” hence temporary which means worshipping it is not according to Gurmat since it is not Akaal. The only difference I have with you is that I believe Shabad to be nirgun. Even if you call it sargun, still only Akaal is being worshipped and not something He created. This is my point. Only Akaal is worthy of praise. Lets look at ik"ong"kar itself. …..Gurparsad (grace of vahiguroo/guru maharaj - attribute of nirgun and sargun) || Waheguru Ji has nirgun and sargun attributes. No doubt but He still is Akaal. In Mool Mantar who do Sikhs worship and praise? Akaal Purakh and not the sargun pasara or the creation. My whole point is that Akaal Purakh can be worshipped because He has sargun attributes but worshipping the sargun creation is not acceptable since it is a tamasha. Otherwise one can justify worship of anything such as snakes, fire, sun, moon, humans, animals, trees etc. You call it sargun, I call it Nirgun because recitation of Mool Mantar is praises of the Almighty One who is the supreme power and the creator of all. Creation and creator are not the same. Creation is temporary whereas the creator is permanent. Creation does not go back to satan, it goes back or/ annihlated into nirgun vahiguroo during parlo/maha parlo. I agree and never disagreed with you on this one. Point still remains. Why worship the creation which is temporary? Defination of idol worship: Upasakh doing upasana of idol/akhar/object, in its mindset limiting vahiguroo parbhram to just mere idol/akhar/object and get stuck in it by idolizing the idol/akhar/object. …. However, gurbani does not debunk sargun parsara- jot of vahiguroo which exist in everything and sargun upasana- upasana of creator through creation. All the Shabads you have posted so far praise Akaal Purakh only and one of the reasons is that He is everywhere but not a single pankti praises Him through his creation. Gurbani says He is in water, fire, on land, in sky etc everywhere but water, fire, land, sky are not praised because He is in them. He is praised because He is in them. It is the other way around. ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਰਨੀ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਕਿ ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਉਸਦੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਰਨੀ ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਉਹ ਹੈ ਦੋ ਅਲੱਗ ਅਲੱਗ ਕਰਮ ਹਨ ਇੱਕ ਨਹੀਂ । ਸਿਮਰੋ ਉਸਨੂੰ ਜਿਸਨੇ ਸਭ ਕੁਝ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਨਾ ਕਿ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਜਿਸਨੂੰ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਹੈ । You misunderstood one big point and simply putting words in my mouth. Having pictures to understand something is not a sin but worshipping pictures even thinking Waheguru Ji is within them is simply wrong. I was inspired by Sant Harnaam Singh Ji’s autobiography and all the sakhis my father told me about Sant Kartar Singh Ji. But not once did I ever worship them or bowed to their pictures. What are the pictures for? Worship or just to understand something? Worship of pictures is wrong. Pictures in langar hall are there for a purpose which is to educate us about our history and remind us of where we come from and the struggle our ancestors went through. Not a single person can come to the conclusion that they are there to be worshipped. I say Fateh to Nishaan Sahib because Sant Ji used to say that Shaheed Singhs do pehraa around it. Whether or not it’s true, it reminds me of all the sacrifices Sikhs made for the chardi kala of the Panth and Nishaan Sahib reminds me of them. Many Sikhs who bow also do for the same purpose. But not a single one worships it like Guru Granth Sahib or considers it Jot of Guru Sahib. Worship of Nishaan Sahib as Waheguru or His Jot is not practiced in the Panth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikh Answers Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Second Part I stand corrected, idol worship/bout pooja is when upsakh not idol/picture/akhar/icon but when upsakh limits vahiguroo ji into just mere idol/picture/akhar/icon.. Anything besides that can be consider appreciating sargun parsara of vahiguroo ji through sargun dhyaan. I disagree with this point. Idol is idol regardless of what one believes or thinks. This is about the truth not about perception. Hindus can justify their idol worship by saying that they don’t believe Waheguru is limited to their idol but it doesn’t change the fact..”Pahan Mein Parmeshar Nahin”. Pictures are not different either. Creation gives no gyan only the eternal Shabad does. Waheguru’s saroop is Shabad. Gurbani is the true saroop of Waheguru because it will never die and is above maya. Its pretty ironic you mentioned bhai nand laal goya, did u know he was at one stage time of his life great sargun mast upasakh of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj. My point was to highlight the fact that Shabad is not sargun but nirgun roop. Sahabd is not defined as sargun but as a separate roop. It is Jot parkash of Waheguru. “Waho Waho Bani Nirankar Hai” or “Satgur Shabad Shabad Hai Satgur”. Shabad never dies. It is eternal. Bhai Nand Lal Singh Ji praises Guru Gobind Singh Ji because Guru and Waheguru are the same. He is not praising the body which is temporary. It is the “Gur Moorat Gur Shabad Hair” principle. Bhai Gurdas Ji praises Guru Nanak Sahib the same way. Creation is not praised but the creator is. Vahiguroo shabad in form of akhar is sargun, Again, the question is this: Whether Shabad is Nirgun or Sargun who is being praised? The creator or the creation? Even when one does jaap of Waheguru, Akal Purakh is being worshipped. Shabad is His true saroop. Gurbani is His form and He Himself is the word. Even when the creation is destroyed, Naam will still remain even if you do not have the akhars to write it. Naam is His saroop and will remain always. These dhuniyas are pretty much part of shuksham sargun vachak not nirgun vachak, there are no dhuniyas, panch shabad in nirgun mandal. Nirgun mandal is above from shabad, dhuniya and even dasam dvara, just search for nirgun in gurbani, you will find it there. I asked before the same question. Define Nirgun bhagtee if everything in Gurmat (mool mantar, gurmantar and Gurbani) is sargun. What would happen once the surti goes to nirgun? How does one do ustat and get naam rass? Gurbani says Naam rass is eternal and will never go away and Naam gives muktee. 1. I never said there is indeed jot of vahiguroo in stones as its jar maya but one perceive that way based on the surti as it may invoke certain emotion same thing with pictures of guru sahiban, puratan shaheeds/shaheeds even though they are jaar maya but depends how one perceives them, as everything sargun we see invokes an emotion be it positive/negative. Since you admit there is no jot of Waheguru in stones then worshipping Waheguru through stones is not possible. Pictures give you inspiration but they are not worthy of worship. One can look at a picture and praise Akal Purakh (acceptable in Gurmat) but saying that worship of a picture is worship of Akal Purakh because His jot is in it is not acceptable. 2. I thought we were focusing on jot of vahiguroo…… bhai kahniya ji giving water and medical supplies to khalsa army enemy? First you said that worship of Akaal through His creation is acceptable. This is why I raised this point. Since there is jot of Waheguru within these papis isn’t worshipping Akal Purakh through them also acceptable? One doesn’t have to limit Waheguru to them but they can justify it using your argument. They simply have to say they are praising Waheguru through His creation (worshipping dehdharis and papis) and it is all Gurmat. I see a serious problem here. You will have to cut down to what can be worshipped and what not if you want to keep the argument of praising Akaal through His creation. In summary, I believe the difference remains here: You state praising Akaal through His creation is acceptable and I do not. Akaal is worshipped because He is everywhere and creation should not be worshipped just because His Jot is in it. I do not like to boast I have learned from so and so and from this mahapurash but what I have learned is not all “my own” khoj but much of it comes from somewhere else and I rather keep it to myself. I must admit this was one of the healthiest discussions (not debate or bickering) with you and I enjoyed it. We are all on the path to learn more and more Gurmat and become better Sikhs of Guru Sahib. I will not post anymore on this topic as it is very time consuming and everything I wanted to say has been said unless someone asks for some clarification. No need to drag it further. Das ji, If you read Gurbani and Vaars you will come to know that Naam is His aasli (true) saroop. Gurbani came from Waheguru and it will take us to Waheguru. Your example is not right. Satguru and Waheguru are one. Naam is the savior because it is Satguru or Akaal Purakh Himself. He is not limited to just one Shabad but He is achieved through the Shabad. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Thanks for your reply Sikh Answers. I believe we both put forth our points with our understanding of gurbani. I too enjoyed having a discussion with you on this topic. I will end this discussion by posting very informative audio discourse with gurbani references by sant isher singh ji rara sahib which addresses the points you raised in the above post eg- defining nirgun pooja, dhyaan of sakar/sargun at the starting and shabad, dhunis, parkash, dasam dvar are all staying below nirgun parbhram only thing stays in nirgun is- anubhav parkash and nirvkalap samadhi. Anyway here is the link: http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audio/Atamik%20Bachan%20by%20SISji/Atmik%20Bachan.mp3 (right click on the link and save target as). Points which were raised in the post, were addressed from 15 minutes and 30 seconds. ਬਿਸਨੁਪਦ ਪੁੰਨੀਆ ਗੀਤ ਸਾਨੀ ਤਰਹ ਦੂਜੀ ॥ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਰੂਪ ਹਰੀ ਕੇ, ਉਪਾਸਨ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੋ ਅਤਿ ਨੀਕੋ ॥ The Sargun and Nirgun are two forms of Hari, for devotes these two types of worship are acceptable ਭਗਤਿ ਗਯਾਨੀ ਗਯਾਨੀ ਭਗਤਾ, ਉਪਾਸਕ ਉਭਯ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਕੋ ॥ Bhagat = Sargun da upashak, Gyani = Nirgun da upashak, both of these two types of devotes are Pareshvar's shardaloo's (faithful) (page 423, vol 2 of the sarbloh granth tika) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balbir Singh Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal! Dear all! Nirgun and Sargun are God Himself. Which molecule of Him should remain in Sansaar and which should get Muktee, move according to His Will. Whom God wants to provide Liberation through His Statue or His Naam, is His Leela. Gurdev is singing Naamdev Jee's realization. ਆਪਨ ਦੇਉ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਆਪਨ ਆਪ ਲਗਾਵੈ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ आपन देउ देहुरा आपन आप लगावै पूजा ॥ Aapan deo dehuraa aapan aap lagaavai poojaa. SGGS 1252 By merging in God all merges in Him, also His Statues and His Naam. Balbir Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystical Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 To even say he is formless is to say he has a form, a formless form. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harsharan000 Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 The Bani says: Jin Har japeeya, se Har hoeeya. I think, it is quite clear, that, only those who mediatate on Him, shall merge in Him, as He is the only everlasting, permanent and changeless Truth. So naturally, all others, who do not follow this advice by our Guru Sahibans, shall pitifully merry go round in the Chaurasee ka chakar. Sat Sree Akal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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