dalsingh101 Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Can you please cite those sources here. Sources for what? Singh2 don't involve me in your mad discussions. I am talking from my subjective experiences of growing up. You seem to have some mad agenda to attack anyone not thinking like you. Fact is, I find that more disturbing and destructive to Sikh unity than anything else. It is the base Panjabi argumentative characteristic in full swing. The only thing it results in is more internal weakness. Leave me out of your discussions. I had asked to you participate with me in some serious research not long ago when we were going to study the contents of some of the older birs of DG, but instead you (and others) just couldn't stop really personal and distasteful attacks on each other. What nonsense is that. Don't drag me down to that. I am a young Sikh (bhujangi), I can see things globally more important to us that we need to discuss. I notice you do not want to concentrate (AT ALL!) on female infanticide, serious drug problems in Sikhs, caste divisions, racial attacks, global warming, translating Sikh literature for a wide distribution for a youth that is falling apart in the west. Instead it is one issue for you. You carry on arguing over theological issues in DG. I will try and prepare the youngers in my clan for the future. BTW, I think I have drawn appropriate lessons from the DG. Whilst you argue and split us up, I will concentrate on deaing with the genuine threats in my sphere. Do you seriously not realise that you are just creating a negative vortex with what you are doing????? I don't mean to be disrespectful but I think you are becoming blinded to wider concerns in your single minded quest. Read this from Panth Prakash please. So the Khalsa Singhs pleaded with the Bandhayee Singhs, It was improper for them to strife against each other Incase they indulged in an internecine war amongst themselves The Mughals would harm the entire community Like two sparrows fighting each other who are devoured by a wily cat Similarly, the Mughals would pounce upon us (Panth Prakash, page 437) Please, I beg you to leave me out of any non productive discussions. And keep your accusatory finger to yourself. I know the moment anyone diasagrees with you, there is a high chance you will start to go mad with all manner of accusations. Leave me out of it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Sources for what? Singh2 don't involve me in your mad discussions. I am talking from my subjective experiences of growing up. You seem to have some mad agenda to attack anyone not thinking like you. Fact is, I find that more disturbing and destructive to Sikh unity than anything else. It is the base Panjabi argumentative characteristic in full swing. The only thing it results in is more internal weakness. Leave me out of your discussions. I had asked to you participate with me in some serious research not long ago when we were going to study the contents of some of the older birs of DG, but instead you (and others) just couldn't stop really personal and distasteful attacks on each other. What nonsense is that. Don't drag me down to that. I am a young Sikh (bhujangi), I can see things globally more important to us that we need to discuss. I notice you do not want to concentrate (AT ALL!) on female infanticide, serious drug problems in Sikhs, caste divisions, racial attacks, global warming, translating Sikh literature for a wide distribution for a youth that is falling apart in the west. Instead it is one issue for you. You carry on arguing over theological issues in DG. I will try and prepare the youngers in my clan for the future. BTW, I think I have drawn appropriate lessons from the DG. Whilst you argue and split us up, I will concentrate on deaing with the genuine threats in my sphere. Do you seriously not realise that you are just creating a negative vortex with what you are doing????? I don't mean to be disrespectful but I think you are becoming blinded to wider concerns in your single minded quest. Read this from Panth Prakash please. So the Khalsa Singhs pleaded with the Bandhayee Singhs, It was improper for them to strife against each other Incase they indulged in an internecine war amongst themselves The Mughals would harm the entire community Like two sparrows fighting each other who are devoured by a wily cat Similarly, the Mughals would pounce upon us (Panth Prakash, page 437) Please, I beg you to leave me out of any non productive discussions. And keep your accusatory finger to yourself. I know the moment anyone diasagrees with you, there is a high chance you will start to go mad with all manner of accusations. Leave me out of it. Dalsingh1001 You wrote We have to be careful though because next, people will be saying Dasmesh Pita worshipped Kali Devi based on some puratan sources. Can you cite those puratan sources? I asked for that. You wrote I had asked to you participate with me in some serious research not long ago when we were going to study the contents of some of the older birs of DG, but instead you (and others) just couldn't stop really personal and distasteful attacks on each other. What nonsense is that. You asked me a few points on sikhsangat. I provided the answers. Then you wanted me to go over to SPN for this discussion. I went there and in first round you were absent. I had nothing on discussion but personal insults from your collegues like waheguruseeker, aad002 now naryannyan kaur, khalsa fauj etc. You came in second round. I clarified what you asked from me. Your above statement is not correct. Can you share with us where did i attack you personally in that discussion. I continued clarifying your points inspite of personal attacks on me from the combined gangs of administration SPN , mentors of SPN and kala afghana chelas. What is in your post above? Only personal attacks that you seem to have learned on SPN. Learn some manners before conducting yourself on a public domain. There is nothing to take personally. In another thread you are calling Dasam granth as literature only. THis is subtle proapaganda . When asked for proofs, no refrences are given. So far such misrepresentation will continue appropriate answers will be given. Make no mistake abut that. A young bhujangi needs to learn not to hurt sentiments of others by writing negative remarks on religious scripture of a religion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 dalsingh, Singh2 asked a fair question - he wants to know the basis (source) of your comment regarding Kali Pooja by the 10th Master, thats reasonable. Personally I would like to say a big thank you to Singh2 for trying so hard to debate with the naastic/heretic boys from SPN - which he did at all times in a dignified manner, whilst suffering insult after insult from those ill mannered bufoons. We could all learn a lesson or 2 from Singh2s patience and passion. Dhanvaad jeeo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Anyway, I do not want to reignite the distasteful exchanges that occurred lately. Singh2 at times it seems as if you have some conspiracy theory tendencies and sees "propaganda" where opinions differ from yours. What does this mean? In another thread you are calling Dasam granth as literature only. THis is subtle proapaganda. Are you suggesting that I am part of some wider conspiracy? That is what your post implies and it seems nuts to me (seriously). I've already told you my position on DG. I do not doubt Amrit bani. The other works is something I am studying. Until I draw a conclusion, I am referring to it as literature. I am talking of the reworkings of older tales here. At no time have I advocated negativism towards the granth but you see "conspiracy", that is what I mean by having an accusatory nature. I guess our disagreement boils down to my caution in subcribing the title bani to some of contents of DG. Please do not go into a frenzy over this. In time I will openly debate these matters. When asked for proofs, no refrences are given. So far such misrepresentation will continue appropriate answers will be given. Make no mistake abut that. Seriously, I don't know what your experiences have been but you seem to think that everyday Joes are part of some insidious anti DG campaign. Please stop it. The fact is that many Sikhs are largely unaware of the Dasam Granth in regards to the contents outside of the prescribed prayers and perhaps the short prayer attributed to Dasmesh Pita whilst in the Machiwarra jungle. Now, I want you to grasp this. Prior to the years between around 89 and say 95, when I initially started studying literature on Sikhs, I was (like many) largely unaware of the wider (non Amrit bani) contents on DG. The view I generally got from reading literature on Sikhs was that their was some question marks on the authorship of all the compositions. This is my experience, I cannot recall every single publiccation I read back then (being quite young) but clearly there was a paucity of info on DG back then. In those days we did not have anything like we have today with translations and transliterations so it was very difficult for people to make their own informed decisions. You seem to have serious problems grasping this. There is no conspiracy involved. Now that I am older I have learnt to assess the value and disposition of some of writers I encountered. In light of this I am not at all surprised people are cautious of some of teh DG contents (I am not saying they are right and wrong in this). Anyway examples of references are: Khushwant Singh in his History of the Sikhs mentions that Macauliffe, Cunningham, Narang and Banerjee do not believe all of the writing in DG was Guru Gobind Singhs (appendix 4). Other organisations have voiced similar opinions (i.e the IOSS). J.S.Grewal says (in his The Sikhs of Punjab, 1998): "Turning to the Dasam Granth, or The book of the Tenth Master, we find that all that there is in this compilation was not written by the Tenth Master. But there is much that was and more that was approved by him." Pritpal Singh Bindra, who has done more than ANYONE else to try and translate the so called controversial parts of the granth also questions the authorship. I hope you are realising that there is information out there that contradicts your assertion that very little doubt has been ascribed to DG. That is plainly wrong, at least from many English sources. Please note that these sources do not reflect my own opinions on the matter and also try and refrain from seeing conspiracies everywhere. I do not doubt that there are some that are using academia to attack Sikhs/Sikhi but not everyone who has a contrary position to your own (or even my own) is in this camp. I hope you have your references for this now. Regarding that other point about old references to GGS worshipping Kali Devi prior to the Khalsa (something I do not believe). Are you seriously telling me you are unaware of this? I will try and dig them out if you want but see no purpose as they are just early attempts at the Brahmanisation of Sikhi. I see no point really, all I was trying to highlight is that there are some strange things in some old manuscripts that we would consider anti gurmat today. Why turn that into a war now? Anyway, have you noticed how all of your discussions seem to wind up back at DG Singh2? This was about Guru Gobind Singh ji's wives...but alas..... Do you not see other important issues that Sikhs must face and address? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Anyway, I do not want to reignite the distasteful exchanges that occurred lately. Singh2 at times it seems as if you have some conspiracy theory tendencies and sees "propaganda" where opinions differ from yours. What does this mean? It is a propaganda being done by anti sikh forces. When i say this i do not mean by you. People like you are sucked into it unknowingly. This is being done in an organized way after rise of sikhs in the wake of operation blue star. You can call it "operation scripture distortion". Are you suggesting that I am part of some wider conspiracy? That is what your post implies and it seems nuts to me (seriously). I've already told you my position on DG. I do not doubt Amrit bani. The other works is something I am studying. Until I draw a conclusion, I am referring to it as literature. I am talking of the reworkings of older tales here. At no time have I advocated negativism towards the granth but you see "conspiracy", that is what I mean by having an accusatory nature. I guess our disagreement boils down to my caution in subcribing the title bani to some of contents of DG. Please do not go into a frenzy over this. In time I will openly debate these matters. I did not write you as involved in conspiracy. You seem to have become part of it unknowingly.One needs to keep in mind these are writings of Guru Gobind singh ji. His writings are as sacred and holy as of any other Guru. These are to be addressed in proper and not in a casual way as has become the fashion of the day. There are many manuscripts compiled by different Gursikhs. All those point out that banis are same in everyone of those. Seriously, I don't know what your experiences have been but you seem to think that everyday Joes are part of some insidious anti DG campaign. Please stop it. The fact is that many Sikhs are largely unaware of the Dasam Granth in regards to the contents outside of the prescribed prayers and perhaps the short prayer attributed to Dasmesh Pita whilst in the Machiwarra jungle. That is what i have seen. Banis of tenth master are being referred to in obscene language like KK etc etc. It has been happening on quite a few forums. It was happening on SPN. Slowly believers will raise their voice against this Blasphemy (and it is blasphemy).It is not good to be a political correct sikh. We need to counter it . Guru's instructions are Gur ki ninda sunne na kaan Bhetath de sang ====== So far people are not sure of depth of Dasam granth sahib they need to keep their tongue in check. Now, I want you to grasp this. Prior to the years between around 89 and say 95, when I initially started studying literature on Sikhs, I was (like many) largely unaware of the wider (non Amrit bani) contents on DG. The view I generally got from reading literature on Sikhs was that their was some question marks on the authorship of all the compositions. This is my experience, I cannot recall every single publiccation I read back then (being quite young) but clearly there was a paucity of info on DG back then. In those days we did not have anything like we have today with translations and transliterations so it was very difficult for people to make their own informed decisions. There was never and repeat never a question mark on Dasam granth. You have addressed this question to me earlier also and i have replied to you. You wanted a reference and i provided you a hukamnama against Teja singh bhasaur. Do you remember that? You did not raise the point again. Please provide a reference from sikh history where there is a doubt on DG before Teja singh bHasuar. Doubt was spread by arya samaji Hindus. The same theory is being repeated by some sikhs today. There is a time difference of 14 years between 95 and 2009. kala fghana came on the scene in 2000 or so. I started reading dasam granth after 2001. You seem to have serious problems grasping this. There is no conspiracy involved. Now that I am older I have learnt to assess the value and disposition of some of writers I encountered. For instance Khushwant Singh in his History of the Sikhs mentions that Macauliffe, Cunningham, Narang and Banerjee do not believe all of the writing in DG was Guru Gobind Singhs (appendix 4). Khushwant Singh also believes that sikhs are part of Hindu religion. Do you believe that? he was married to a Hindu woman. have these writers read dasam granth themselves? Moreover their personal opinions do not count. When you say Narang i suppose it is gokul chand narang. He wrote that following bani was the composition unparalleled in any scripture of the world. I am not able to understand why a historian who writes so highly about bani of DG will write aginst it. Have you got the refrence from his book? Moreover historians have their own opinions also. H macleod wrote so many thigs about SGGS ji. One has to see the reverence and acceptance of this scripture among puratan sikhs. ਖਗ ਖੰਡ ਬਿਹੰਡੰ ਖਲ ਦਲ ਖੰਡੰ ਅਤਿ ਰਣ ਮੰਡੰ ਬਰ ਬੰਡੰ ॥ खग खंड बिहंडं खल दल खंडं अति रण मंडं बर बंडं ॥ The sword chops well, chops the forces of scoundrels and this mighty one bedecks and glorifies the battlefield. ਭੁਜ ਦੰਡ ਅਖੰਡੰ ਤੇਜ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡੰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਮੰਡੰ ਭਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੰ ॥ भुज दंड अखंडं तेज प्रचंडं जोति अमंडं भान प्रभं ॥ It is the unbreakable staff of the arm, it has the powerful luster and its light even bedims the radiance of the sum. ਸੁਖ ਸੰਤਾ ਕਰਣੰ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਦਰਣੰ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਹਰਣੰ ਅਸਿ ਸਰਣੰ ॥ सुख संता करणं दुरमति दरणं किलबिख हरणं असि सरणं ॥ It brings happiness to the saints, mashing the vicious ones, it is the destroyer of sins and I and under its refuge. ਜੈ ਜੈ ਜਗ ਕਾਰਣ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਬਾਰਣ ਮਮ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਰਣ ਜੈ ਤੇਗੰ ॥੨॥ जै जै जग कारण स्रिसटि उबारण मम प्रतिपारण जै तेगं ॥२॥ Hail, hail to the cause of the world, saviour of the universe, it is my preserver, I hail its victory. 2. Other organisations have voiced similar opinions (i.e the IOSS). I know quite a bit about the founders of this body of heretics who themselves had no spiritual life They had been Govt servants all their lives working 8 to 5 . They were not Gursikhs as may of them were not Amritdharis. So one can judge their commitment towards sikhi. After retirement they gather and are roped in by another traitor Gurtej singh IAS who was a mole in sikh struggle of 1980/1990s. When whole of Punjab was burning and sikh youths were being killed they were making alliances for spreading misinformation about Dasam granth. That is when it started. Now if you ask me i will term it as conspiracy. Pritpal Singh Bindra, who has done more than ANYONE else to try and translate the so called controversial parts of the granth also questions the authorship. I had a talk with Bindra. I asked him he has translated hikayts whose language is persian. Did he know persian( I knew he does not know). He told that he did not know persian. My question was how he could he translate those. he replied by refrerring to dictionary. THus he made a fool of himself. I told that he waa dead wrong in understadning those hikayats. Give to it a persian scholar and he will tell that these are beautiful metaphors used for God. The problem here is some people have led their lives as a manmukh not following sikh rehat and then they become writers overnight and write something they themselves do not understand. That is the case of Bindra. He spread a lot of misinformation about Dasam garnth. Finally he was detected and engaged in discussion and then he left the scene. I hope you are realising that there is information out there that contradicts your assertion that very little doubt has been ascribed to DG. That is plainly wrong, at least from many English sources. Please note that these sources do not reflect my own opinions on the matter and also try and refrain from seeing conspiracies everywhere. I do not doubt that there are some that are using academia to attack Sikhs/Sikhi but not everyone who has a contrary position to your own (or even my own) is in this camp. I hope you have your references for this now. Please give us refrence here. Just stating does not solve anything. Give us refrence. If you give me refrence then only i can rebut. Regarding that other point about old references to GGS worshipping Kali Devi prior to the Khalsa (something I do not believe). Are you seriously telling me you are unaware of this? I will try and dig them out if you want but see no purpose as they are just early attempts at the Brahmanisation of Sikhi. I see no point really, all I was trying to highlight is that there are some strange things in some old manuscripts that we would consider anti gurmat today. Why turn that into a war now? Give the refrence. Arya samaji said so many things about sikhs like that. they were rebutted by Bhai kahan singh ji nabha giving quotes from Dasam granth sahib. Have you read his book " Hum Hindu nahin"? If not read before you read others. Anyway, have you noticed how all of your discussions seem to wind up back at DG Singh2? This was about Guru Gobind Singh ji's wives...but alas..... Do you not see other important issues that Sikhs must face and address? I believe that Dasam granth is very important for sikhs as a religion. I hope you believe sikhs should be amrtidhari sikhs at one stage of their life. there is no sikhism without Dasam granth. There were millions of kabir panthis in India. Where are they now? Just vanished. if there is no Dasam granth same thing is going to happen to sikhs. That is why it is duty of a sikh to combat misinformation being spread about our scripture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balbir Singh Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal! Dear all and Singh2 Jee! Quote "We have to be careful though because next, people will be saying Dasmesh Pita worshipped Kali Devi based on some puratan sources." Please elaborate this. I will be grateful. What is Kali Devi and how Dasmesh Pita has done worship of Kali Devi? Balbir Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 "There were millions of kabir panthis in India. Where are they now? Just vanished. if there is no Dasam granth same thing is going to happen to sikhs." Vaheguru. Dasmesh Pita gifted Mandi Raja a rabaab, so that Gurbani could be sung and the sangats atma awakened... he also gave him a bandook, to serve and protect the rabaab (and its duty). Without the bandook, the rabaab would not exist (be unprotected), without the rabaab, the bandook would not have a reason to exist... Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the 'Anmol Heera', Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is the 'Aganj Shastar' that protects it - both are represented/manifest within the Panth - through the Sant and Sipahis of the Khalsa. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 "There were millions of kabir panthis in India. Where are they now? Just vanished. if there is no Dasam granth same thing is going to happen to sikhs." Vaheguru. Dasmesh Pita gifted Mandi Raja a rabaab, so that Gurbani could be sung and the sangats atma awakened... he also gave him a bandook, to serve and protect the rabaab (and its duty). Without the bandook, the rabaab would not exist (be unprotected), without the rabaab, the bandook would not have a reason to exist... Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the 'Anmol Heera', Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is the 'Aganj Shastar' that protects it - both are represented/manifest within the Panth - through the Sant and Sipahis of the Khalsa. Someone told me That Dasam granth sahib is jilad for SGGS ji. Jilad is hard cover of a book that protects it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option...h&Itemid=63 The History and Compilation of the Dasm Granth (Part 1) - Dr. Trilochan Singh Patshahi10.Org is pleased to present this important piece of work on the history of Sri Dasam Granth by Dr. Trilochan Singh, an authoritative exponent of Sikh history, theology, philosophy and culture. This work, in four parts, was published in The Sikh Review in 1955. And up till now this remains a benchmark work on the history and compilation of Sri Dasam Granth - Admin The History and Compilation of the Dasm Granth (Part 1) Dr. Trilochan Singh Guru Gobind Singh's mind was a towering Himalaya of light from whose teeming caverns there flowed a mighty river of songs in whose placid depths he set the reflected image of all the tragedy and bliss of life. His imagination was a seraph, which sounded all depths and measured all heights. It touched the intangible, it saw the invisible, it heard the inaudible and it gave body and shape to the inconceivable. It gathered gems from all mines, gold from all sands, pearls from all seas and songs from every battle of dharma. Guru Gobind Singh bequeathed to mankind a literary, historical and philosophic estate which time cannot destroy. He breathed into the nostrils of the heavenly Muse the breath of a new immortality. He sang of his God and his soul. He sang of creation and the rise and fall of civilization. He sang of the wars of dharma, of the heroes of the glorious past of India and of the figurative gods and goddesses of mythology. He sang of the lovers and martyrs of truth. The fever of the age, the misery of the people, the degradation of the country and its culture, the mute appeals of the oppressed became the problems of his life which he solved with the pen, the sword, the mind and his godlike spirit. Guru Gobind Singh's mind was a resistless flood which deluged everything that came into contact with it with glory, strength and spiritual glow. He desired that his Sikhs should develop all sides of their personality. He himself developed on all sides the exhuberance of his powers without losing himself in their multiplicity. MISUNDERSTOOD AND MISINTERPRETTED GENIUS It is, however, to be regretted that writers on Guru Gobind Singh have been led away by their just admiration for one aspect of his life to an unjust and even ignorant depreciation of various other equally important aspects of his life. It becomes impossible for some devout Sikhs to understand that the Guru who was the creator of the Khalsa and who in many fundamental ways parted radically from Hinduism could write such secular writings as life stories of the avtars of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva such as his Triya Charitar and Chandi Charitar. It becomes equally difficult for non-Sikh writers to understand that a Guru who has written glowing accounts of Chandi, Lord Krishna, Buddha and the great ascetics Dattatreya and Paras Nath was not a worshipper or a devotee of any of these. While he had a profound respect for these personalities who were gifted with special, divine qualities, he condemned the worship of these heroes and sages of our country as deities and godheads. There is another class of writers who do not understand Guru Gobind Singh's use of the sword of dharma and the great social and spiritual significance he attached to it. His autobiography explains the circumstances under which he had to use the sword in actual battles. When hordes of aggressors, generally numbering more than ten times his men, attacked his home and hearth without rhyme or reason, he had no other way out but to resort to the sword Extremist non-violence at such juncture had kept India in slavery century after century.[1] Another negative argument, though without much grounds, is that since Guru Gobind Singh was always preoccupied with battles and conflicts with the rulers, how was it that he had so much time to write such monumental works. Such people should know that out of five of a Sikh's morning prayers three compositions are by Guru Gobind Singh. Such is the importance he attached to his poetic works. Guru Gobind Singh was far more conscious of being a poet than being a warrior, or a prophet. The title of the prayer composed by him reads: Kabio ach Benti Chaupai, which means, The Prayer of the Poet in Chaupai Metre. In his autobiography, Apni Katha, the chapter describing his birth in the first person is entitled Ath Kabi Janam Kathnan. No ruler in Indian history had as many as 50 poets and innumerable additional writers whose patronage was coveted by emperors like Aurangzeb. If Guru Gobind Singh found time to examine the works of 52 poets he could easily find time to write profusely. He rewarded two poets with 60,000 mohars each for translating some cantos of the Mahabharata into Hindi and Panjabi. He never gave even half this much reward to any of his warriors. When the war clouds loomed heavily over Anandpur he asked those poets who could not handle the sword to leave. On their departure they were profusely garlanded, taken in procession on elephants, given rich gifts and presents. Above all they were given a salute of guns. According to a poet, the neighbouring rajas on hearing the salute were terror stricken and thought that Guru Gobind Singh was preparing an attack with unprecedented might. While education was compulsory, military training was optional. Yet in that atmosphere the inspiration to become a poet was so great that labourers working in the stables took part in poetry contests. The military training was entrusted to some of the greatest military geniuses of the time. Among them were Guru Gobind Singh's maternal uncle Kirpal Chand, who was also the Guru's teacher from childhood, and five sons of Bibi Viro (daughter of Guru Har Gobind) named Sango Shah, Jit Mal, Gulab Chand, Ganga Ram and Mahri Chand. Each of these warriors was given a command of 500 to 800 soldiers. Sango Shah Avas the Commander-in-Chief in the battle of Bhangani; when he fell a martyr on the twelfth day of fighting, Guru Gobind Singh took the command in his own hands. The younger generation took arms so very eagerly that the poet Hir said, "A child siugh learns the use of the sword long before he learns to tie his turban." While all other misunderstandings will become clear in their proper places, one misunderstanding created by the self-styled puritans called the bhasurias must be cleared here. They tried to prove that most of the Dasm Granth was written by the poets Ram and Shyam, names which occur in one or two compositions in the Dasm Granth. There is more than sufficient internal and external evidence in every composition to show that all the writings in the Dasm Granth were the works of Guru Gobind Singh. As we discuss each composition we will explain the purpose of each work and also give internal proofs of its authenticity. The names Ram and Shyam are used in some places as pen names. Actually speaking, they were not pen names but poetic translations of Guruji's names. Guruji's name Gobind is an attributive name of God; so also are Ram and Shyam. In Sikh theology the three words govind, ram and syam mean the same thing as the following quotations from the Guru Granth prove: Siyam sundar taj nind kiun ai (Guru Arjan: Suhi) Siyam sundar taj an jo cahit jion, kusti tan jok (Surdas: Sarang) govind govind govind har gurni nidhan govind govind govind jap mukh ujla pardhan (Guru Bam Das: Var Kanra) ram ram kirtan gae ram ram ram sada sahae (Guru Arjan: Rag Gond) In all the above quotations from the Guru Granth the words ram, syam and govind mean the same thing and so also do they in the Dasm Granth where they stand for Guru Gobind Singh. That is why two or sometime all three of these names occur in the same composition.[2] This practice of writing a synonym for the proper noun in the Dasm Granth applies not only to his own name but to many other names also. In the Dasm Granth, Guru Gobind Singh writes Netra Trung for Naina Devi, Satdrav for Satluj, Dasmpur for Anandpur, Shah Sangram for Sango Shah, and Madra-desh for the Punjab. Even in our own times Bhai Sahib Vir Singh's maternal uncle Pandit Hazara Singh wrote his name Hazoor Hari while his father Dr. Charan Singh wrote his name Charan Hari. Sardar Dharma Anant Singh, in his book Plato and the True Enlightener of Soul, writes the name of Sant Attar Singh as Mrigindus Atrus. So Ram, Shyam and Govind are synonymous names of Guru Gobind Singh. sr Almost all these works were written by Guru Gobind Singh between the ages of 16 and 35. In the Dasm Granth purely religious and philosophic compositions have 878 verses. But the introductions and the epilogues to all the secular verses are important religious compositions and number about 500. So the philosophic verses number nearly 1,378. Akal Ustat and Gyan Prabodh were more than twice what we find in the Dasm Granth. Had they survived, the religious poems in the Dasm Granth would have been twice the number we have now. It is not out of place to conclude that Guru Gobind Singh's contribution to religious literature far exceeds any other Guru's contribution to the Guru Granth. Contributions by the other Gurus and by Kabir to the Guru Granth are: Guru Nanak, 974 verses; Guru Angad, 62; Guru Amar Das, 907; Guru Ram Das, 697; Guru Arjan, 2,218; Guru Tegh Bahadur, 116; and Kabir, 541 verses. All the works were compiled by Guru Gobind Singh, but unfortunately almost all were lost in the sack of Anandpur and the battle of Chamkaur in 1704. The last four years of the Guru's life were spent in compiling the final version of Guru Granth Sahib and in making journeys east and south. A few months before his death the Guru sent his wife and Bhai Mani Singh to take care of the Sikhs in Delhi and Punjab. The divine mother was to stay at Delhi and Bhai Mani Singh was to tour Punjab. After the passing away of Guru Gobind Singh the Punjab was in a very unsettled condition. Around 1714 Mata Sundri asked Bhai Mani Singh to take the religious leadership of the Sikh Panth in his own hands with Amritsar as his headquarters. He was also instructed to compile the works of Guru Gobind Singh into a collected volume. The following letter from Bhai Mani Singh written in April 1714 shows the appalling conditions of the time and the missionary zeal of the great saint-scholar. In the light of this letter the statement of the eminent historian Gyani Gyan Singh that Bhai Mani Singh was living with barely five or six Sikhs at Amritsar is not unbelievable. Bhai Mani Singh managed to live during these aweful times because of his profound influence on both the Muslims and Hindus; bhai-mani-singh-letter (Translation of the letter; the photostat of the original given opposite page 57.) The One prevaileth everywhere. May the Immortal be our saviour. Most revered divine mother, Mani Singh makes obeisance at thy feet. News further is that on coming here my body has been suffering from acute wind-ailment and my health has been deteriorating. I meditated on the songs of healing thrice. But there has been no slackness in the service of the Golden Temple. The Khalsa has lost its hold in the Punjab and the Sikhs are retreating to the forests and mountains. The whole of the Punjab is under the sway of the despots. Even in the villages the life of the young men and women is not safe. They are hunted and killed mercilessly. The enemies of the Guru have joined hands with them. The handaliyas (followers of an impostor guru) are spying on the Sikhs and are betraying them to the enemies.Almost everyone has left Amritsar. The clerks and accountants have fled. So far the Almighty has protected me. 1 cannot say what may happen tomorrow. The Master's words will come to pass. Binod Singh's grandson has passed away. Among the books I sent there is a volume of 303 Triya Charitar Upakhyan written by the master. Please give that volume to Sihan Singh who lives in the interior of the city. So far I have not been able to trace Shastra Nam Mala Puran. I have found the first part of Krishna Avtar but not the second part. If I get it I will send it. There is a rumour here that Banda has made good his escape. May the Lord protect him. Guru Angad's family at Khadur has sent five tolas of old for your adopted son's bride.[3] Please recover seventeen rupees from Jhanda Singh. I gave him five rupees to meet the expenses of the journey. He has some bad habits and he will squander the money. The accountants have not as yet given me the accounts, otherwise I would have sent a hundi from the big city (Lahore). If my health improves I shall come some time in October or November. Baisakh 22. Sd/ Mani Singh Please reply in the bamboo stick. The Romanized copy of Bhai Mani Singh's letter to Mata Sundri ji ih onkar akal sahae puj mata ji de carnan par mani singh ki dandaut bandna. Bahoro samacar vacna ke idhar aon par sada sarir vayu ka adhik vikari hoe gaea hai-suast nahi hoea, tap ki kala do bar suni. par mandar ki seva men koi alak nahi. des vic khalse da bal chut gaea hai. sihgh parbatan babanan vic jae base hain. malechon ki des men dohi hai. basti men balak juva istri salamat nahi. much much kar marde hain. guru darohi bi unan de sang mil gae hain. handalie mil kar mukbari karde hain. sabi cak admin cut gae hain. mutsadi bhag gae hain. sade par abi to akal ki racha hai. kal ki khabar nahi. sahiban de hukam atal hain. binod singh de putrele da hukam sat hoe gaea hai. pothian jo jhanda singh hath bheji thi unan vic sahiban de 303 caritar upkhiyan di pothi jo hai so sihan sihgh nun mahal vic dena ji. Nam mala ki pothi di khabar abi mili nahi. karisnavtar purbaradh to mila utraradh nahi. je mila asi bhej devange. des vic goga hai ke banda bandhan mukat hoe bhag gaea hai. sahib bahudi karan ge. tola par sona sahibjade ki gharni ke abhukhan lai guru kiaa khandur se bheja hai 17 rajatpan bi jhanda singh se bhar panen. 5 rajatpan ise tosa dia is nun badraka bi hai. is se uth janven ge. mutsadion ne hisab nahi dia jo dende tan bade sahir se hundi kardi bhejde. asade sarir di rachia rahi tan kuar de mahine avange. mili vaisakh 22. daskhat manisingh guru cak bunga. juab pori main The letter reveals the following facts: 1. Such secular works as Krishna Avtar, Triya Charitar and Shastar Nam Mala Puran were written by Guru Gobind Singh and not by any other poet. 2. The Sikh historians are mistaken when they believe that Bhai Mani Singh took charge of the Golden Temple in 1722. This letter, written five months after Baba Banda's arrest and two months before his execution, shows that Bhai Mani Singh was there much earlier, probably in 1713 or 1714. 3. Finding the Akal Ustat incomplete, Mr. Macauliffe said that "there is an obvious defect in the arrangement of the composition." There is, as a matter of fact, no defect. Mr. Macauliffe did not know the works were collected after strenuous efforts and more than what is there was not available until then. Bhai Mani Singh completed the compilation in 1734, four years before he himself became a victim of the Moghul tyranny and his body was cut joint by joint. Some of the prominent Sikhs such as Baba Binod Singh (mentioned in the letter and probably staying at that time with Bhai Mani Singh), Baba Gurbakhsh Singh and Sukha Singh prepared their own copies from the compiled copy. I have not seen the copies prepared by Baba Gurbakhsh Singh and Bhai Mani Singh but if a search is made I think they can still be found. I have seen the copy prepared by Baba Binod Singh which contains 28 pages written in Guru Gobind Singh's own hand. Binod Singh's descendents presented this copy of the Dasm Granth to Maharaja Ranjit Singh's durbar and they received Rs. 125/- per month as a gift for it. It then came to the Patiala durbar and until 1947 the descendents of Baba Binod Singh were getting Rs. 25/- per month. Baba Binod Singh was a direct descendent of Baba Dasu, son of Guru Angad. Baba Binod Singh was also one of the five apostles under whose guidance Banda Bahadur was supposed to work at the instructions of Guru Gobind Singh. So a copy prepared by Baba Binod Singh is an authentic and direct copy of the originally compiled version by Bhai Mani Singh. This Dasm Granth is at present in the Moti Bagh Palace, Patiala, and I had an opportunity to study it in detail some time ago. Six years after the compilation of he book and two years after the death of Bhai Mani Singh a dispute arose among the scholars as to whether such philosophic writings as the Jap and Akal Ustat should remain side by side with secular writings or whether they should be kept in separate volumes. Such scholars maintained that it was not proper to discuss writings like Triya Charitar in the gurdvaras. No one, of course, doubted that the works were those of Guru Gobind Singh. The matter was decided in a strange way [4] Bhai Mehtab Singh and Bhai Sukha Singh who were there said that if they succeeded in killing Massa Ranghar who was occupying Amritsar and using the Golden Temple as a pleasure house the Dasm Granth should remain intact. If, however, they died in the attempt, the books of the Dasm Granth should be separated. .Fortune most strangely favoured keeping the Dasm Granth in one volume. According to Macauliffe the name of Dasm Granth was given to the collection much later. This is not correct. The title of Binod Singh's collections and of other older recensions is Dasm Patshah ka Granth, which means the same thing as Dasm Granth, Work of the Tenth Guru. In 1896 leaders of the Singh Sabha movement found that copies of the Dasm Granth began to differ in the spelling of words. As the copyists knew only Panjabi and not Hindi and Persian they made many mistakes in writing these languages. So a committee of scholars was appointed which prepared an edition to be printed for the first time. They collected some 32 old texts of the Dasm Granth, but they unfortunately left the proof reading to the printers Messrs, Gulab Singh & Sons who in printing have made countless errors which even distort the meaning of the original. Either the scholars who prepared this or the publishers have made two grievous errors: 1. They have written on the title page "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Dasm Patshahi" which seems to be a distortion of Dasm Patshahi ka Granth which is found on most of the old recensions. This Granth was not installed as a guru so it is wrong to call it Guru Granth. 2. The first verse of the 33 swayas: jagat jot japai nis basar, has been omitted. What is to be noted is that all the eminent scholars of the Singh Sabha movement accepted the whole of the Dasm Granth as the work of Guru Gobind Singh. In 1915 there arose an assumedly puritan school of thought at Bhasaur under Babu Teja Singh, a retired overseer, a good organizer but with a hopelessly shallow intellect. He and a few of his hired gyanis not only started a campaign against Dasm Granth but even compiled a Guru Granth of their own excluding the works of Kabir and other bhagtas. He even changed the mass prayer of the Sikhs. As a reformist, in the beginning he gathered some support but when he stooped to flagrant abuse of history and facts he was condemned by a proclamation from the Akal Takht and his activities were declared Singh's poets. The genius of one most un-Sikh-like. This school has died an inevitable visible death and no Sikh scholar of importance believes that any part of Dasm Granth was written by Guru Gobind Singh's poets. The genius of one mind, the art style of one poet is visible in the whole of Dasm Granth. That genius and style is of Guru Gobind Singh and no other. [1]. Muhsin Fani, Guru Har Gobind's contemporary, declared that "both Guru Har Gobind and Guru Gobind Singh did not use the sword out of anger on any occasion. The wars they fought were not communal; they were fought against the Hindu rajas and the Moghul armies. In his armies there were Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs." Even Mahatma Gandhi, writing in his article, The Doctrine of the Sword, said: "I do believe that when there is only a choice between cowardice and violence I would advise violence. I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should in a cowardly manner remain a helpless victim to her own dishonour." [2]. In the Guru Granth the name Gobind is written both as Govind and Gobind. But in Guru Gobind Singh's writings it always occurs with " b " as Gobind. Guru Gobind Singh spent most of his life in the Doaba area of the Punjab where the words with "v" are pronounced " b . " Guru Gobind Singh used it very often in his writings. He writes bade bade for vade vade; maru bajia for maru vajia; abigat for avigat; Bishnu for Vishnu; barn for varn, and innumerable other cases. So Guruji preferred to write his name as Gobind and not as Govind. [3]. Mata Sundri saw a young boy who in features resembled her eldest son Ajit Singh so much that she adopted him much against the wishes and advice of Bhai Mani Singh and desired that all relatives and Sikhs should treat him as her son. She even arranged his marriage as poor compensation for her deeply cherished desire to have seen the marriage of Ajit Singh, who fell a martyr in the battle of Chamkaur. This adopted son proved so hopeless that he had to be publicly disowned. He even discarded the Sikh faith under the threats of the Muslim rulers. Latter he was involved in a crime and as punishment was tied to the tail of an elephant and met a terrible death. [4]. To belittle the martyrdom of Bhai Mani Singh some people invented the story that he was cursed by the Sikhs for dividing the Guru Granth into parts authorwipe. It was Bhai Mani Singh who wrote the final version of Guru Granth Sahib as dictated by Guru Gobind Singh. Bhai Mani Singh would never have dared to undo it. The fact that Bhai Mani Singh was in favour of having even Dasm Granth in one volume disproves this theory 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Singh2, I cannot say this enough, but you are amazing!!!!! You're the best!!!! With the knowledge you have I beleive you have a great role to play in the Panth. Dasmesh Pitaa Jee gives seva to Singhs like you to protect his Bani. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 singh2, a couple of points to reflect upon: "[2]. In the Guru Granth the name Gobind is written both as Govind and Gobind. But in Guru Gobind Singh's writings it always occurs with " b " as Gobind. Guru Gobind Singh spent most of his life in the Doaba area of the Punjab where the words with "v" are pronounced " b . " Guru Gobind Singh used it very often in his writings. He writes bade bade for vade vade; maru bajia for maru vajia; abigat for avigat; Bishnu for Vishnu; barn for varn, and innumerable other cases. So Guruji preferred to write his name as Gobind and not as Govind. " I have never heard of Guru Ji crossing the satluj into doaba in any history. I think you need to find out about this. Sikh history maintains that Guru Ji spent all of his life in Malwa, when he was in Panjab. "Six years after the compilation of he book and two years after the death of Bhai Mani Singh a dispute arose among the scholars as to whether such philosophic writings as the Jap and Akal Ustat should remain side by side with secular writings or whether they should be kept in separate volumes. Such scholars maintained that it was not proper to discuss writings like Triya Charitar in the gurdvaras. No one, of course, doubted that the works were those of Guru Gobind Singh. The matter was decided in a strange way [4] " I dont think that this would have been the point of contention as the original Dasam Granth which was lost at Sirsa had the same more or less content and layout as the granth that Bhai MAni Singh Ji compiled. The point of contention here was whether the saroop of Dasam Guru should be allowed alongside Aad Guru as Guru Ji had given gurgaddi to Aad Guru. other than that an excellent article. Ive learned a lot from it. Thanks, and keep up the good work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Will respond soon. Very busy at the moment with work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Chatanga Ji Anandpur is located in Doaba area. It is between river sutlej and beas. . You are right that Guru sahib had compiled Dasam granth sahib during his time. This is called Anandpuri bir or Hazuri bir. This was looted away when Anandpur sahib was ransacked. The bir was later sold by the looter to a Sikh and is still held by a family. Dasam granth was in parkash alongside SGGS ji right from misl period. All gurmattas were held with two Granth sin parkash. Bhai Mani singh bir was two granths combined together and banis of SGGS ji were rearranged per writers. THis was not liked by sikhs. See the following and click link to see painting http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option...h&Itemid=63 Note: The following is an excerpt from a book, Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab,written by Sir John Malcolm* in 1812. John Malcolm’s work is one of the rarest firsthand information recorded by a western historian on the lifestyle, belief systems and traditions of the Sikhs in Punjab during the 18th century . Guru-mata When Gurmata or great national council, is called, (as it always is, or ought to be, when any imminent danger threatens the country, or any large expedition is to be undertaken) all the Sikh chiefs assemble at Amritsar. The assembly, which is called the Guru-mata, is convened by the Acalis; and when the chiefs meet upon this solemn occasion, it is concluded that all private animosities cease, and that every main sacrifices his personal feelings at the shrine of the general good; and, actuated by principles of pure patriotism, thinks of nothing but the interests of the religion, and commonwealth, to which he belongs. When the chiefs and principal leaders are seated, the Adi-Granth and Dasama Padshah ka Granth are placed before them. They all bend their heads before these scriptures, and exclaim, Wa! Guruji ka Khalsa! Wa! Guruji ki Fateh! A great quantity of cakes, made of wheat, butter, and sugar, are then placed before the volumes of their sacred writings, and covered with a cloth. These holy cakes, which are in commemoration of the injunction of Nanac, to eat and to give to others to eat, next receive the salutation of the assembly, who then rise, and the Acalis pray aloud, while the musicians play. The Acalis, then the prayers are finished, desire the council to be seated. They sit down, and the cakes being uncovered, are eaten of by all classes of Sikhs: those distinctions of original tribes, which are, on occasions, kept up, being on this occasion laid aside, in token of their general and complete union in one cause. The Acalis then exclaim: "Sirdars! (Chiefs) this is Guru-mata!" on which prayers are again said aloud. The chiefs, after this sit closer, and say to each other: "The sacred Granth is betwixt us, let us swear by our scripture to forget all internal disputes, and to be united." This moment of religious fervor and ardent patriotism, is taken to reconcile all animosities. They then proceed to consider the danger with whcih they are threatened, to settle the best plans for averting it, and to choose the generals who are to lead their armies against the common enemy. The first Guru-mata was assembled by Guru Govinid; and the latest was called in 1805, when the British army pursued Holkar into the Penjab. (pages. 120-123) ________________________ *Sir John Malcolm (May 2, 1769 ‑ 1833) was a Scottish soldier, statesman, and historian. He held various distinguished posts, being Ambassador to Persia, Resident of Gwalior (1803-1804) and Governor of Bombay 1827-1830. He was the author of several valuable works regarded as authorities, viz., Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab (1812), A History of Persia (1815), Memoir of Central India(1823), Political History of India from 1784 to 1823 (1826), and Life of Lord Clive (1836) other than that an excellent article. Ive learned a lot from it. Thanks, and keep up the good work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 singh2, a couple of points to reflect upon: I have never heard of Guru Ji crossing the satluj into doaba in any history. I think you need to find out about this. Sikh history maintains that Guru Ji spent all of his life in Malwa, when he was in Panjab. Chatanga Ji Anandpur is located in Doaba area. It is between river sutlej and beas. I dont think that this would have been the point of contention as the original Dasam Granth which was lost at Sirsa had the same more or less content and layout as the granth that Bhai MAni Singh Ji compiled. The point of contention here was whether the saroop of Dasam Guru should be allowed alongside Aad Guru as Guru Ji had given gurgaddi to Aad Guru. You are right that Guru sahib had compiled Dasam granth sahib during his time. This is called Anandpuri bir or Hazuri bir. This was looted away when Anandpur sahib was ransacked. The bir was later sold by the looter to a Sikh and is still held by a family. Dasam granth was in parkash alongside SGGS ji right from misl period. All gurmattas were held with two Granth sin parkash. Bhai Mani singh bir was two granths combined together and banis of SGGS ji were rearranged per writers. THis was not liked by sikhs. See the following and click link to see painting http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option...h&Itemid=63 Note: The following is an excerpt from a book, Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab,written by Sir John Malcolm* in 1812. John Malcolm’s work is one of the rarest firsthand information recorded by a western historian on the lifestyle, belief systems and traditions of the Sikhs in Punjab during the 18th century . Guru-mata When Gurmata or great national council, is called, (as it always is, or ought to be, when any imminent danger threatens the country, or any large expedition is to be undertaken) all the Sikh chiefs assemble at Amritsar. The assembly, which is called the Guru-mata, is convened by the Acalis; and when the chiefs meet upon this solemn occasion, it is concluded that all private animosities cease, and that every main sacrifices his personal feelings at the shrine of the general good; and, actuated by principles of pure patriotism, thinks of nothing but the interests of the religion, and commonwealth, to which he belongs. When the chiefs and principal leaders are seated, the Adi-Granth and Dasama Padshah ka Granth are placed before them. They all bend their heads before these scriptures, and exclaim, Wa! Guruji ka Khalsa! Wa! Guruji ki Fateh! A great quantity of cakes, made of wheat, butter, and sugar, are then placed before the volumes of their sacred writings, and covered with a cloth. These holy cakes, which are in commemoration of the injunction of Nanac, to eat and to give to others to eat, next receive the salutation of the assembly, who then rise, and the Acalis pray aloud, while the musicians play. The Acalis, then the prayers are finished, desire the council to be seated. They sit down, and the cakes being uncovered, are eaten of by all classes of Sikhs: those distinctions of original tribes, which are, on occasions, kept up, being on this occasion laid aside, in token of their general and complete union in one cause. The Acalis then exclaim: "Sirdars! (Chiefs) this is Guru-mata!" on which prayers are again said aloud. The chiefs, after this sit closer, and say to each other: "The sacred Granth is betwixt us, let us swear by our scripture to forget all internal disputes, and to be united." This moment of religious fervor and ardent patriotism, is taken to reconcile all animosities. They then proceed to consider the danger with whcih they are threatened, to settle the best plans for averting it, and to choose the generals who are to lead their armies against the common enemy. The first Guru-mata was assembled by Guru Govinid; and the latest was called in 1805, when the British army pursued Holkar into the Penjab. (pages. 120-123) ________________________ *Sir John Malcolm (May 2, 1769 ‑ 1833) was a Scottish soldier, statesman, and historian. He held various distinguished posts, being Ambassador to Persia, Resident of Gwalior (1803-1804) and Governor of Bombay 1827-1830. He was the author of several valuable works regarded as authorities, viz., Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab (1812), A History of Persia (1815), Memoir of Central India(1823), Political History of India from 1784 to 1823 (1826), and Life of Lord Clive (1836) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Singh2 Ji, Doaba consists of the districts of Jalandhar, Hoshiarpur and Kapurthala and recently Nawanshahr only. Roopnagar or Ropar as its called today has never been classed as being part of Doaba. http://www.sangdhesian.com/images/punjab-map_big.jpg you will see here that anandpur falls east of satluj and outside of doaba. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Singh2 Ji, Doaba consists of the districts of Jalandhar, Hoshiarpur and Kapurthala only. Roopnagar or Ropar as its called today has never been classed as being part of Doaba. Chatanga ji Doaba is an area between two rivers i.e. Sutlej and Beas. Anandpur Sahib falls in that area. These districts have been redrawn after reorganization of Punjab in 1966. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/anandpur...olt-ove/398946/ Anandpur Sahib was the only open constituency left for general category candidates in the Doaba region, where he claimed he has a strong base. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Chatanga ji Doaba is an area between two rivers i.e. Sutlej and Beas. Anandpur Sahib falls in that area. These districts have been redrawn after reorganization of Punjab in 1966. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/anandpur...olt-ove/398946/ Anandpur Sahib was the only open constituency left for general category candidates in the Doaba region, where he claimed he has a strong base. While on the subject of Doaba, Una district of Himachal is also traditionally part of Doaba. Una was originally a Tehsil of Hushiarpur but was unjustly broken away from Punjab and given to Himachal Pradesh. One day we will get back Himachal and Haryana. Those lands rightfully belong to Punjab. I've always heard that Anandpur Sahib was a part of Doaba, never have I heard that it is a part of Malwa. Usually you can always tell what area a person comes from just from the dialect of Punjabi they speak. Even the Punjabi dialect they speak in Anandpur Sahib is almost the same as the dialect spoken in Hushiarpur. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Original definition of doaba is between the 2 rivers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 While on the subject of Doaba, Una district of Himachal is also traditionally part of Doaba. Una was originally a Tehsil of Hushiarpur but was unjustly broken away from Punjab and given to Himachal Pradesh. One day we will get back Himachal and Haryana. Those lands rightfully belong to Punjab. I've always heard that Anandpur Sahib was a part of Doaba, never have I heard that it is a part of Malwa. Usually you can always tell what area a person comes from just from the dialect of Punjabi they speak. Even the Punjabi dialect they speak in Anandpur Sahib is almost the same as the dialect spoken in Hushiarpur. Mithar ji You are right. Anandpur sahib and Nangal were part of Una tehsil falling under Hoshiarpur District. They were taken out of Una tehsil and merged with Punjab. Ropar was tehsil of Ambala. It was taken out of Ambala. That is when Anandpur sahib came under Ropar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 It is a propaganda being done by anti sikh forces. When i say this i do not mean by you. People like you are sucked into it unknowingly. This is being done in an organized way after rise of sikhs in the wake of operation blue star. You can call it "operation scripture distortion". I agree this is taking place within an Indian and western academic context. But to suggest that anyone with views that deviate from a particular perspective is part of this is wrong. Yes - we do all have to be careful. That is what i have seen. Banis of tenth master are being referred to in obscene language like KK etc etc. It has been happening on quite a few forums. It was happening on SPN. Slowly believers will raise their voice against this Blasphemy (and it is blasphemy).It is not good to be a political correct sikh. We need to counter it . You must be careful not to fall into elongated flame wars. There are better ways to deal with it. From what I have seen this is what it often comes down to. There was never and repeat never a question mark on Dasam granth. You have addressed this question to me earlier also and i have replied to you. You wanted a reference and i provided you a hukamnama against Teja singh bhasaur. Do you remember that? You did not raise the point again. Please provide a reference from sikh history where there is a doubt on DG before Teja singh bHasuar. I think this is a matter that we need to clear up. I am not talking about a century or so ago. I was pointing out that even in modern times some people question the authorship of some of the contents of DG. I do not think this is linked to Teja Singh Bhasuar. Doubt was spread by arya samaji Hindus. The same theory is being repeated by some sikhs today. See that is the strange paradox. The people who usually object to DG do so for the contents of CP and the heavy use of Hindu mythology in the granth. They say that this is essentially pushing SIkhism back into a Hindu framework. I know the granth is interspersed with references denying the divinity of the gods and goddesses but, they still feel that way. I hope you notice that it is actually anti-Hinduism that is making many people suspicious of the granth. Khushwant Singh also believes that sikhs are part of Hindu religion. Do you believe that? he was married to a Hindu woman. Have these writers read dasam granth themselves? Moreover their personal opinions do not count. When you say Narang i suppose it is gokul chand narang. He wrote that following bani was the composition unparalleled in any scripture of the world. I am not able to understand why a historian who writes so highly about bani of DG will write aginst it. Have you got the refrence from his book? Moreover historians have their own opinions also. H macleod wrote so many thigs about SGGS ji. One has to see the reverence and acceptance of this scripture among puratan sikhs. My point in referring to these individuals (some of whom I find seriously distasteful) was to simply show you that there is a body of writing that does not support the view that Dasam Pita wrote all of the granth. Regardless of my own point of view (and yours). You must factor that into your thinking. This will help you understand why people have negative views of the granth. I personally do not think this is due to Bhasaur, Arya Samaj or any conspiracy myself. I think a serious, rational, new study of the relationship between Sikhs of old and DG is needed. The sad fact is that this is such an (understandably) emotive issue, that it is difficult to do subjectively as accusations start flying around in no time. As you fully aware. You may say that studies have been conducted already, I believe the panth is now is a much better position to conduct new research because our own knowledge of analysis has developed so much in the last century. I am not suggesting that we sacrifice faith over logic but merely saying that a revisit is merited. Whilst I am talking about this, I am really surprised that you still use the so called letter by Bhai Mani Singh as evidence. Have you seen it? It is very likely to be a modern forgery. It is not like anything written in early 1700s. I know quite a bit about the founders of this body of heretics who themselves had no spiritual life They had been Govt servants all their lives working 8 to 5 . They were not Gursikhs as may of them were not Amritdharis. So one can judge their commitment towards sikhi. After retirement they gather and are roped in by another traitor Gurtej singh IAS who was a mole in sikh struggle of 1980/1990s. When whole of Punjab was burning and sikh youths were being killed they were making alliances for spreading misinformation about Dasam granth. That is when it started. Now if you ask me i will term it as conspiracy. Regarding the IOSS. We spoke before about blanketing a whole organisation with one brush. I do not know them personally but I can say this. As an organisation, they have done much to rebut anti Sikh writings by Harjot Oberoi and McLeod. (See Invasion of religious boundaries and The Sikh revolution for examples). They have also translated puratan literature such as Sewa Das's Parchian and Rattan Singh Bhangu's Panth Prakash for the masses including the Panjabi text. I do not know the ins and outs of the organisation. From what I have read and seen of their publications I find it difficult to accept that they are anti SIkh. In fact I would go as far as to say that thay have actually done an extremely valuable service by making certain important puratan literature on Sikhi widely acccessible. I feel very passionate about this and from what I have seen some of their contributions have been awesome. Jagjit Singh's book, Sikh revolution, for example, is an unparalleled work that contrasts the Sikh movement with other contemporary movements such as the one in France and the American independence movement. It also does much to debunk the caste ridden interpretation of Sikh history by McLeod and J.S.Grewal awesomely. Singh, it is very easy to slander people over the net. I beg the sangat to refrain from this and try and form your own opinions of people based on your own experiences. Anyone of us can be tarred with a brush. I would hope that Sikhs have enough "akl" to be careful of blindly jumping on bandwagons against people or orgs. I had a talk with Bindra. I asked him he has translated hikayts whose language is persian. Did he know persian( I knew he does not know).He told that he did not know persian. My question was how he could he translate those. he replied by refrerring to dictionary.THus he made a fool of himself. I told that he waa dead wrong in understadning those hikayats. Give to it a persian scholar and he will tell that these are beautiful metaphors used for God. The problem here is some people have led their lives as a manmukh not following sikh rehat and then they become writers overnight and write something they themselves do not understand. That is the case of Bindra. He spread a lot of misinformation about Dasam garnth. Finally he was detected and engaged in discussion and then he left the scene. What I noticed with Sikh studies is a certain pattern. Pioneering work is done. Thsi is then reflected on, challenged, revisited and then improved. So I would regards his attempt at translating Hikayats as pioneering. I have to ask teh question of why has no one prior to him bothered to attempt to make the contents of Hikayats more accessible to the wider Sikh public? Presumably even Nihungs would struggle with comprehending the text given that it is written in Persian, a language notorious for its subtleties and nuances. Now he has produced his work, I am sure it will lead to better translations being produced in time. I always respect the doers. Whether I agree with him or not, he is a doer. If more people had that characteristic than we Sikhs as a community would be better off. Agree or disagree, he has contributed with (albeit imperfect) attempts to translate the portions of Dasam Granth others seem to avoid (i.e. Dr. Jodh Singh). I am sure Bindra's work will be improved in future, but I am glad to have something over nothing. I believe that Dasam granth is very important for sikhs as a religion. I hope you believe sikhs should be amrtidhari sikhs at one stage of their life. there is no sikhism without Dasam granth. There were millions of kabir panthis in India. Where are they now? Just vanished. if there is no Dasam granth same thing is going to happen to sikhs. That is why it is duty of a sikh to combat misinformation being spread about our scripture. I appreciate your beliefs/feelings. Whatever my views right now, I don't want to see the DG disappear either. However, Sikhs existed for sometime before DG, this is something that needs to be understood. Besides, if we are to be destroyed, it will not be solely down to the disappearance of the DG from Sikh circles but also poor leadership, poor cohesion amongst Sikhs and inadequate strategic planning and action (amongst other things). PS - That reference to Guru Gobind Singh seeking Kali Devi's help (who I think is the same as Durga) comes from Chibber's Bansavalinama. Look it up. I do not believe this at all btw. I only referred to it to show that interpolation and misinformation does occur in old sources. Anyway. Let us leave the matter now we could probably argue over it for years. I have plenty of gaps in my knowledge to fill in this time. lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I think this is a matter that we need to clear up. I am not talking about a century or so ago. I was pointing out that even in modern times some people question the authorship of some of the contents of DG. I do not think this is linked to Teja Singh Bhasuar. We need to note the time when Dasam Granth was written. It was written plus three hundred years ago. Since then it is considered as an esteemed scripture to the extent being in parkash at Gurmattas along SGGS ji. Teja singh Bhasaur came on scene 100 years ago and was the first one to cast doubt on Dasam granth. Now we have more people especially kala afghana chelas. joing that band wagon . They do not believe in mystic aspects of sikhism. It is lack of understanding on their part. See that is the strange paradox. The people who usually object to DG do so for the contents of CP and the heavy use of Hindu mythology in the granth. They say that this is essentially pushing SIkhism back into a Hindu framework. I know the granth is interspersed with references denying the divinity of the gods and goddesses but, they still feel that way. I hope you notice that it is actually anti-Hinduism that is making many people suspicious of the granth. One need to see that Guru Gobind singh was engaged in a war of righteousness. For wars he needed people to become sikhs. From where they will come? Naturally bulk will come from Hinduism. These converts have belief in Devi/devtas. So Guru sahib changed the dimensions of Devi/devtas from being considered absolute Gods to servants of God. dasam granth is more open in denouncing devi/devtas than SGGS ji. My point in referring to these individuals (some of whom I find seriously distasteful) was to simply show you that there is a body of writing that does not support the view that Dasam Pita wrote all of the granth. Regardless of my own point of view (and yours). You must factor that into your thinking. This will help you understand why people have negative views of the granth. I personally do not think this is due to Bhasaur, Arya Samaj or any conspiracy myself. I think a serious, rational, new study of the relationship between Sikhs of old and DG is needed. The sad fact is that this is such an (understandably) emotive issue, that it is difficult to do subjectively as accusations start flying around in no time. As you fully aware. You may say that studies have been conducted already, I believe the panth is now is a much better position to conduct new research because our own knowledge of analysis has developed so much in the last century. I am not suggesting that we sacrifice faith over logic but merely saying that a revisit is merited. Whilst I am talking about this, I am really surprised that you still use the so called letter by Bhai Mani Singh as evidence. Have you seen it? It is very likely to be a modern forgery. It is not like anything written in early 1700s. Writers can never evaluate a religious scripture. Especially foreigners as they are not aware of practices of the religion. A scripture has to be seen how is it is accepted by the regulating authority of that religion. That in our case is Akal takhat. That accepts Dasam granth and this acceptance is rooted in sikh history. May i know what is wrong with Bhai mani singh ji's letter? Just because some heretics of IOSS wrote so and you believe that. You should share this point with us if you are not able to devote time for others. Regarding the IOSS. We spoke before about blanketing a whole organisation with one brush. I do not know them personally but I can say this. As an organisation, they have done much to rebut anti Sikh writings by Harjot Oberoi and McLeod. (See Invasion of religious boundaries and The Sikh revolution for examples). They have also translated puratan literature such as Sewa Das's Parchian and Rattan Singh Bhangu's Panth Prakash for the masses including the Panjabi text. I do not know the ins and outs of the organisation. From what I have read and seen of their publications I find it difficult to accept that they are anti SIkh. In fact I would go as far as to say that thay have actually done an extremely valuable service by making certain important puratan literature on Sikhi widely acccessible. I feel very passionate about this and from what I have seen some of their contributions have been awesome. Jagjit Singh's book, Sikh revolution, for example, is an unparalleled work that contrasts the Sikh movement with other contemporary movements such as the one in France and the American independence movement. It also does much to debunk the caste ridden interpretation of Sikh history by McLeod and J.S.Grewal awesomely. I am not aware how far their criticism about Mcleod was correct. Mcleod had done some injustice to sikh history but i doubt he needed such a harsh treatment at the hands of heretic IOSS who have no life themselves. It seemed more of a personal vendetta. Did they not find mention of dasam granth bani in parchaian sewa dass. Of course the verses are there in that. The verse from Ram Avatr is there on last page.This book was written in 1708. What bigger proof they needed about authenticity of Dasam granth. You seem to be their follower without knowing their view points. They also wrote that bhagats whose banis are in SGGS had different world view than Sikh Gurus. Do you belleive that? They need to know that it is inadvisable to conduct an academic research on scripture of a religion as research is laced with personal views. They had not lead a life of Gurmat themselves and indulged in all pleasures of life such as drinking etc. how can they evaluate a bani that has come from god himself. Singh, it is very easy to slander people over the net. I beg the sangat to refrain from this and try and form your own opinions of people based on your own experiences. Anyone of us can be tarred with a brush. I would hope that Sikhs have enough "akl" to be careful of blindly jumping on bandwagons against people or orgs. People can write kissa of heer ranjha, sassi pannu etc. their personal life will not come into question. But if they misinterpret a religious scripture calling it gand da tokra their personal lives will come under scrutiny. Let us not complain over that. Also read book " Open secrets" by MK Dhar and you will find the name of Gurtej singh in that hobnobbing with agencies. MK Dhar was ex IB chief of India. I hope you know the role of this man in the present controversy on dasam granth. What I noticed with Sikh studies is a certain pattern. Pioneering work is done. Thsi is then reflected on, challenged, revisited and then improved. So I would regards his attempt at translating Hikayats as pioneering. I have to ask teh question of why has no one prior to him bothered to attempt to make the contents of Hikayats more accessible to the wider Sikh public? Presumably even Nihungs would struggle with comprehending the text given that it is written in Persian, a language notorious for its subtleties and nuances. Now he has produced his work, I am sure it will lead to better translations being produced in time. I always respect the doers. Whether I agree with him or not, he is a doer. If more people had that characteristic than we Sikhs as a community would be better off. Agree or disagree, he has contributed with (albeit imperfect) attempts to translate the portions of Dasam Granth others seem to avoid (i.e. Dr. Jodh Singh). I am sure Bindra's work will be improved in future, but I am glad to have something over nothing. He has not only mistranslated hikayats, he has also mistranslated Chandi charitras and Charitropakhyan. That too when he does not know the langauge Braj bhasha.He is the one who misled many innocent sikhs because of his biased view. I am sure God will take care of his blasphemy in next world for slandering God's bani. if you do not know about other translators before him that does not mean they were not there. Giani narain singh of Majung Lahore has translated entire Dasam granth much before that. he knew all the languages and he has done a wonderful work on that. I appreciate your beliefs/feelings. Whatever my views right now, I don't want to see the DG disappear either. However, Sikhs existed for sometime before DG, this is something that needs to be understood. Besides, if we are to be destroyed, it will not be solely down to the disappearance of the DG from Sikh circles but also poor leadership, poor cohesion amongst Sikhs and inadequate strategic planning and action (amongst other things). It takes time for a religion to evolve. Sikhism took time to evolve. That time was from Guru Nanak sahib to tenth master. so concept of saint soldier started by sixth Guru was finalized by tenth master. Dasam granth plays a major role in that. There was no dearth of religious granths in India before sikhs came on scene. What did they learn from those. they learned to look away when their womenfolk were being carried away to harems of middle east.It was khalsa created from the teachings of Dasam Granth that took on these invaders and taught them a lesson. So forget Dasam granth and await the fate of Kabir panthis. PS - That reference to Guru Gobind Singh seeking Kali Devi's help (who I think is the same as Durga) comes from Chibber's Bansavalinama. Look it up. I do not believe this at all btw. I only referred to it to show that interpolation and misinformation does occur in old sources. These may be the pesonal views of chhiber. That does not mean they are correct especially when his bani says it otherwise. You have to decide that by reading bani of guru sahib. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Okay I take your points onboard. However, just because I appreciate some writers who have written under the IOSS banner, it doesn't mean I am anyones "follower", that is an unwarranted comment. Agreement with some publications doesn't mean agreement with all. In your response above, you seem to have come sympathy for McLeod. I am not aware how far their criticism about Mcleod was correct. Mcleod had done some injustice to sikh history but i doubt he needed such a harsh treatment at the hands of heretic IOSS who have no life themselves. It seemed more of a personal vendetta. Is it fair for anyone to label you a McLeod follower based on that? Besides I do find it strange that whilst you condemn many Sikh writers, you seem to hold back with McLeod who has questioned and put doubts on pretty much every Sikh concept going? How come you are so relaxed about this exChristian minister? RE: Bhai Mani Singh's letter. See reproduction below. It does seem peculiarly modern in composition to me. The writing style is very modern looking and unlike anything I have seen previously from this period. The use of words being broken up is also strange for the period. Do we not have a bir of Dasam Granth said to be scribed by Bhai Mani Singh himself? If anyone can post a page of DG in his writing, we can compare together. I will blank my mind towards this document and keep an open mind. Give me solid arguments that it is not a modern forgery if you like. Earlier I meant translations of DG in English, side by side with the original by the way. Giani Narain Singh's work doesn't fall into that category. But thanks for the heads up anyway. On that topic, could you give me your views on translating texts for todays youth in the west. Where do you stand on this. I see it as a positive step towards bringing them closer to the Panjabi originals. But with works in the Dasam Granth such a Hikayats even good Panjabi knowledge is insufficient. You seem to be their follower without knowing their view points. Is your statement a contradiction in terms then? If I am not exactly following them, how can I be a follower? As I said before, I appreciate the translations of Parchian, Panth Prakash, Dhadi nathmal's Amarnama, Jagjit Singh's work and some others. They also wrote that bhagats whose banis are in SGGS had different world view than Sikh Gurus. Do you belleive that? Yes I do. Bhagat Kabir's work in totality seems to diverge from Sikhi at places. You have to study his whole body of literature to see that properly. Please do thsi and then come back. Why do you think that the Guru's were selective in what they included in the granth? Are you saying that what was preached in total by say Bhagats Kabir and Sheikh Fareed is the same as Khalsa way of life, which is the total Sikh world view? You yourself implied that it was the failure of having a martial philosophy that led to the demise of Kabir panthis! So forget Dasam granth and await the fate of Kabir panthis. So clearly you yourself believe the Sikh Gurus philosophy in sum is different from Bhagat Kabirs. The Gurus views took a wider perspective incorporating political and military institutions generally not possessed by these others. However, spiritually the Bhagats and Gurus were talking the same language. What is contained in SGGS ji is bani from the Bhagats that is inline with Sikh thought. This helps Singhs to reduce narrow mindedness in my opinion by showing others too (outside of Sikhs) were capable of being Godcentred. I do appreciate that lately you have toned down the accusatory pitch a bit (although not completely). This is the better way to do this! BTW, at some stage, it would be nice if we actually completed that tatkara examination we started. You could bring it here. I am very busy at the moment and may not be able to respond as quickly as I would like, just to warn you. In the meanwhile, take it easy. We are both members of the panth, albeit very different. In all you do, try and keep an eye on unity. Failure to do this WILL lead us to the same path as Kabir Panthis. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 dalsingh101 wrote Is it fair for anyone to label you a McLeod follower based on that? Besides I do find it strange that whilst you condemn many Sikh writers, you seem to hold back with McLeod who has questioned and put doubts on pretty much every Sikh concept going? How come you are so relaxed about this exChristian minister? Before you term me a Mcleod admirer by takinng my line out of context i want to clear that I am not follower of anybody. I am follower of my Guru. i know a little bit of back hand methods used by heretics of IOSS to take personal venedetta on dr Piar singh whom they got called to Akal takhat on phoney charges. That time they were writing Akal takhat is supreme. When they were hauled up before akal takhat for blasphmey they took akal takhat to court. any one who has double standards of justice is not a sikh. Mcleod has done injustice to sikh history and nobody condones it. But he was a christian missionary. He will do it and we have to rebut taht. But here Gurtej singh and company from IOSS are sikhs. Their crime is far bigger than Mcelod. I will take other points of your rebuttal separately. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 It does seem peculiarly modern in composition to me. The writing style is very modern looking and unlike anything I have seen previously from this period. The use of words being broken up is also strange for the period. Do we not have a bir of Dasam Granth said to be scribed by Bhai Mani Singh himself? If anyone can post a page of DG in his writing, we can compare together. I will blank my mind towards this document and keep an open mind. Give me solid arguments that it is not a modern forgery if you like. You have not specified how it looks modern. it looks modern to you because it is written with a nib. Have you seen the handwriting of the person who writes Hukamnama on a board at darbar sahib. It looks as if it is printed by machine. What other proof one wants when father of famous sikh historian Giani Gian singh was present on the scene of martyrdom of Bhai mani singh ji? Casting doubts on the leeter of Bhai Mani snigh ji is called in Punjabi " Dhoochra". Dhoochra in English is lame excuses. That bir is not available on the internet. If you have one please post it. But that bir have hand written patras of tenth master as well. Earlier I meant translations of DG in English, side by side with the original by the way. Giani Narain Singh's work doesn't fall into that category. But thanks for the heads up anyway. On that topic, could you give me your views on translating texts for todays youth in the west. Where do you stand on this. I see it as a positive step towards bringing them closer to the Panjabi originals. But with works in the Dasam Granth such a Hikayats even good Panjabi knowledge is insufficient. I believe it is essential for a sikh to learn Punjabi language. Then only he can be closest to meanings of Gurbani . I appreciate the translations of Parchian, Panth Prakash, Dhadi nathmal's Amarnama, parchian Sewa das were written in 1708. They mention verses from Dasam granth that too from Ram Avtar. Is it not enough for IOSS to believe in authenticity of Dasam granth. Mention in contemporary literature is surely one of the biggest proof for testifying as bani of dasam pita. Yes I do. Bhagat Kabir's work in totality seems to diverge from Sikhi at places. You have to study his whole body of literature to see that properly. Please do thsi and then come back. Why do you think that the Guru's were selective in what they included in the granth? Are you saying that what was preached in total by say Bhagats Kabir and Sheikh Fareed is the same as Khalsa way of life, which is the total Sikh world view? You yourself implied that it was the failure of having a martial philosophy that led to the demise of Kabir panthis! So you agree what i said about IOSS on bhagat bani.Their mention was a general on Bhagats and not to any specific bhagat. i know about Bhagat kabir ji's other granth. Their comment was similar in nature on the line of teja singh bhasaur. One dr Chahal is on record quoting those lines of this duo of iOSS and advocates taking Bhagat bani out of SGGS ji. You may be aware of that. You may be knowing that also. So clearly you yourself believe the Sikh Gurus philosophy in sum is different from Bhagat Kabirs. The Gurus views took a wider perspective incorporating political and military institutions generally not possessed by these others. However, spiritually the Bhagats and Gurus were talking the same language. Please do not try to do interpolations when none is there.Message of SGGS ji is to spirit and applicable to whole humanity. Bani of Bhagats( we are talking only that is in SGGS ji) conveys the same. Message of Dasam granth is to khalsa as an organized religion. A sikh is not complete without combination of two. Bhagats are saints and as their bani is in SGGS they command our respect. They are bhagats and not our Gurus. There is a difference there. I do appreciate that lately you have toned down the accusatory pitch a bit (although not completely). This is the better way to do this! Dalsingh j, in punjabi there is a saying that "jaisa mooh taisi chaper." As one writes accordingly willbe responded to. I am follower of tenth master and not of Bapu Gandhi. n the meanwhile, take it easy. We are both members of the panth, albeit very different. In all you do, try and keep an eye on unity. Failure to do this WILL lead us to the same path as Kabir Panthis. Those who do not follow rules of panth and do not adhere to rehat maryada are not sikhs. many of us do not follow rehat out of personal weaknesses but do not condemn sikhphilosophy. They are many times better than hose who question the bascis of sikhism. The latter one are certainly not sikhs. they are like sindhi Hindus who have belief in SGGS only. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Here is a double standard of IOSS heretics. http://fateh.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussio...33;OpenDocument Enclosed is a review article published in the March issue of 'Gurmat Parkash' (a monthly magazine published by SGPC) on the 'Spokesman' issue. It's genesis, controversies, leading to the excommunication of it's editor from the Sikh Panth on March 10, 2004. http://www.sgpc.net/gurmat_parkash/gurmatparkash.asp?id=185 Tip for better view: Copy the text and paste it in a MS-Word document. English translation of excerpts from the article: .............When Dr. Piar Singh and Dr. Pashaura Singh's case came to the notice of Akal Takhat Sahib, Spokesman, at that time following its 'original' Panthic policy wrote: ''Disrespect of the religion is a Sin. A person who does not consider Guru Granth Sahib as his Guru can't be called at Akal Takhat Sahib. When a Christian missionary from Batala Hew McLeod defended Dr. Piar Singh and Dr. Pashaura Singh he was not called at Akal Takhat Sahib, first because he is a Christian and second because he does not consider Guru Granth Sahib as his Guru. It's a duty of every member of the Khalsa Panth to follow the traditions.One who does not, is destined to be called at Akal Takhat by the five Singhs under the leadership of the Jathedar. Accused is then asked to undergo a 'Tankhah' as a part of the religious punishment. If he agrees then he is to perform certain duties as a part of his 'Tankhah'. Till his 'Tankhah' is over, the person remains secluded from the Khalsa Panth. In case someone defies the orders of Akal Takhat Sahib and does not present himself before it, then a slightly different strategy is used. He is 'excommunicated' from the Panth until he presents himself before the Akal Takhat. This means that he can neither get respect from the Sangat, nor can he be invited by any Sikh or organisation. The modern day law also uses the same strategy for a convict. In rare cases, depending on the intensity of the sin by the accused, sometimes his whole family can also be excommunicated from the Sikh Panth. All social relations are snapped from the accused. Disrespect of the religion, under the garb of research, should never be tolerated. This in itself is a sin and should be stopped at any cost. Can the 'Tankhah' of Khalsa panth be related to any other legal proceedings? I don't think so''. (Gurtej Singh. Page 33-34. Spokesman. March 1994) ''Guru Hargobind Sahib, has bestowed upon the Khalsa Panth, the institution of Akal Takhat, under the leadership of its Jathedar, who, with the consent of the Panth, the recommendations of the intellectuals (if required), and the consent of other Singh Sahibans, chosen by the Panth, when declares a Hukamnama, then it is the duty of every Sikh to obey and respect that Hukamnama. Every Hukamnama issued by Akal Takhat should be considered as the Hukam of the Guru. Only the Akal Takhat has the powers to issue such edicts. Sometimes if political leaders have to sacrifice something in order to obey the Hukamnama, they immediately declare that, though they consider Akal Takhat as supreme, they cant obey the hukamnama because the person issuing it is not good.... Akal Takhat is akin the Supreme Court of the Sikhs whose declarations cant be challenged at any level. With due respect it can only be requested to be reviewed. Those leaders who impulse the issue in the press should think that it is not the Jathedar whom they are talking about, but the very institution of Akal Takhat. 'Hukamnama' issued from Akal Takhat is not the 'Hukamnama' of the Jathedar, but the 'Hukamanama' of the whole panth. If the accused still has any complaints, then he as a humble Sikh should present himself before Akal Takhat and tell his views, and obey the final orders of the Akal Takhat.'' (Joginder Singh, Editor, Page 16. Spokesman 1997) S. Joginder Singh and S. Gurtej Singh Ji! There is a common dictum, that wise people don't reverse from their own words. Now when its your turn, both of you forgot your own writings...... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.