Terms Used In Sri Dasam Granth

[navjot2]

You are telling me not to refer to non-sikh scripture then you are telling me what non-sikh scriptures say? lol

The Shakti herself formed the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva- according to Markendeya Purana She Created the Devas etc (correct me if wrong). The light shone from their bodies when they were enraged, they did not do create it themselves.

I am not 'superimposing' Hindu theory. I am just trying to understand what is being refered to by looking at relevant texts.

How do you know the vahiguru ji di fateh texts are Gurus insertion? I though Mani Singh ji put these in along with the composition names when he compiled them. the reason i thought this is because in places it is written 'bani of 10 master' etc- why would Guru Gobind Singh title his own work in that manner: look at beggining of Jaap Sahib:

ਜਾਪੁ ਸਾਹਿਬ

जापु साहिब

JAPU SAHIB

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

The Lord is One and He can be attained through the grace of the true Guru.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫ਼ਤਹ ॥

स्री वाहिगुरू जी की फ़तह ॥

The Lord is One and the victory is of the Lord.

ਜਾਪੁ ॥

जापु ॥

NAME OF THE BANI.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਵਾਕ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ ੧੦ ॥

स्री मुखवाक पातिसाही १० ॥

The sacred utterance of The Tenth Sovereign:

see?

and on page 94:

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਬਾਕ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦॥

स्री मुखबाक पातशाही १०॥

From the Holy Mouth of the Tenth King (Guru)

mukhbaak- the words from His mouth.

see?

[navjot2]

ਨਮੋ ਏਕ ਰੂਪੰ ਅਨੇਕੰ ਸਰੂਪੇ ॥

नमो एक रूपं अनेकं सरूपे ॥

Salutation to Thee, O One Lord pervading in many forms.

326

[navjot2]

Now heres a question for you Singh2. Answer it:

Is the word Siva or Sivaa?

Answer this question

[navjot2]

by the way guys its totally hypocritical for me to even engage in this discussion because i dont believe in commenting on Bani at all- not even interpeting it. So therefore i apologise in that respect and would like to say i wont discuss/quote/ or interprerate Bani any more.

[singh2]

he asked if he could read Gurbani and continue his Shiv puja. then you people took it upon yourselves to tell him no.

why? who are you to say what to do to him?

reading Gurbani is for anyone. why shouldnt Hindus and Muslims read if they want to? why should they give up their dharam to do it?

This is called duality. It means that believe in two religions. it is not allowed in sikhism.

Do not mould sikh teachings per your whims

ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਲਾਗੈ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਧਾਵੈ ॥

Dubidhaa laagai deh dis dhaavai:

Attached to duality, the mind wanders in the ten directions

ang 127.

doojai laagee mahal na paa-ay.

Attached to duality, no one attains the Mansion of the Lord's Presence.

ang 111

[singh2]

So you say it is a 'different' Bhavani, but I say it is the same Bhavani.

irreconciable.

in Sikhism God does not incarnate. By considering bhavan as God is hiduism. That is the difference between you and us.

[singh2]

you are forcing your own opinion of 'Tu Hi'. 'Tu Hi' means, to me, 'You Alone Are'- there is nothign but God

It does not say God pervades the leaf, it says You Alone Are the Leaf etc

look at page 37, where God is described as the True Actor of various events.

Read the shabad from where this line is taken. I give the beginning of shabad. Leaf is creation of God but leaf does not become God.

ਤ੍ਵਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਲਘੂ ਨਿਰਾਜ ਛੰਦ ॥

त्वप्रसादि ॥ लघू निराज छंद ॥

BY THY GRACE. LAGHU NIRAAJ STANZA

ਜਲੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਥਲੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਉਰੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਬਨੇ ਹਰੀ ॥੧॥੫੧॥

जले हरी ॥ थले हरी ॥ उरे हरी ॥ बने हरी ॥१॥५१॥

The Lord is in water. The Lord is on land. The Lord is in the heart. The Lord is in the forests.1.51.

ਗਿਰੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਗੁਫੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਛਿਤੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਨਭੇ ਹਰੀ ॥੨॥੫੨॥

गिरे हरी ॥ गुफे हरी ॥ छिते हरी ॥ नभे हरी ॥२॥५२॥

The Lord is in he mountains. The Lord is in the cave. The Lord is in he earth. The Lord is in the sky. 2.52.

ਈਹਾਂ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਉਹਾਂ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਜਿਮੀ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਜਮਾ ਹਰੀ ॥੩॥੫੩॥

ईहां हरी ॥ उहां हरी ॥ जिमी हरी ॥ जमा हरी ॥३॥५३॥

The Lord is in here. The Lord is there. The Lord is in the earth. The Lord is in the sky. 3.53.

ਅਲੇਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਭੇਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਦੋਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਦ੍ਵੈਖ ਹਰੀ ॥੪॥੫੪॥

अलेख हरी ॥ अभेख हरी ॥ अदोख हरी ॥ अद्वैख हरी ॥४॥५४॥

The Lord is Accountless. The Lord is guiseless. The Lord is blemishless. The Lord is sans duality.4.54.

ਅਕਾਲ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਪਾਲ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਛੇਦ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਭੇਦ ਹਹੀ ॥੫॥੫੫॥

अकाल हरी ॥ अपाल हरी ॥ अछेद हरी ॥ अभेद हही ॥५॥५५॥

The Lord is non-temporal. The Lord cannot be reated. The Lord is Indestructible. The Lord`s secrets cannot be known. 5.55.

Akal ustati

[singh2]

an entity becomes him by default? isnt that what i am saying?

It should have been entity does not become God.

[singh2]

instead of writing long posts read the beginning of Jaap sahib. It says about God as below

ਚੱਕ੍ਰ ਚਿਹਨ ਅਰੁ ਬਰਨ ਜਾਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਪਾਤਿ ਨਹਿਨ ਜਿਹ ॥

च्क्र चिहन अरु बरन जाति अरु पाति नहिन जिह ॥

He who is without mark or sign, He who is without caste or line.

ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਰੇਖ ਭੇਖ ਕੋਊ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਿਹ ॥

रूप रंग अरु रेख भेख कोऊ कहि न सकति किह ॥

He who is without colour or form, and without any distinctive norm.

ਅਚਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਨਭਉ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ ਅਮਿਤੋਜਿ ਕਹਿਜੈ ॥

अचल मूरति अनभउ प्रकास अमितोजि कहिजै ॥

He who is without limit and motion, All effulgence, non-descript Ocean.

ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਣਿ ਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾਣਿ ਗਣਿਜੈ ॥

कोटि इंद्र इंद्राणि साहु साहाणि गणिजै ॥

The Lord of millions of Indras and kings, the Master of all worlds and beings.

ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਮਹੀਪ ਸੁਰ ਨਰ ਅਸੁਰ ਨੇਤਿ ਨੇਤਿ ਬਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਣ ਕਹਤ ॥

त्रिभवण महीप सुर नर असुर नेति नेति बन त्रिण कहत ॥

Each twig of the foliage proclaims: "Not this Thou art.

ਤ੍ਵ ਸਰਬ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਰਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਰਣਤ ਸੁਮਤਿ ॥੧॥

त्व सरब नाम कथै कवन करम नाम बरणत सुमति ॥१॥

All Thy Names cannot be told. One doth impart Thy Action-Name with benign heart.1.

Jaap sahib

There is nothing wrong in translation. Read below

ih man saktee ih man see-o.

This mind is Shakti; this mind is Shiva.

ih man panch tat ko jee-o.

This mind is the life of the five elements.

ang 342

ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਸਕਤੀ ਜਗਤੁ ਪਰੋਵਹਿ ॥

Aape saktaa aape surataa saktee jagatu parovahi

You Yourself are All-powerful, the Intuitive Knower and the Sakti; on which the whole world is strung

(ang1242).

Since all of us have soul in us that is part of him. But we do not become Him. We can merge with him if we have realized him. if we are not able to realize him then we have not been able to transgress.We can only realize Him by becoming Gurmukh dwelling on path lad down by our Gurus ( belief in Shabad guru and not in any devi / devats) and only if we are able to obtain His grace.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਸਿਵ ਘਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਸਕਤਿ ਗਵਾਇ ॥

Gur parasaadee siva ghari janmai vichahu sakti gavaae:

Having eradicated Maya from within, by the Divine Grace, the mortal becomes established once again in the Divine Consciousness within

(sggs 1276).

Ad shakti that you are referring here is Him who was present ( In as sh abad guru )when nothing was there, is there and will always be there when this world comes to an end.

[singh2]

You are telling me not to refer to non-sikh scripture then you are telling me what non-sikh scriptures say? lol

The Shakti herself formed the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva- according to Markendeya Purana She Created the Devas etc (correct me if wrong). The light shone from their bodies when they were enraged, they did not do create it themselves.

I am not 'superimposing' Hindu theory. I am just trying to understand what is being refered to by looking at relevant texts.

Now you showing your dirt here. Do not you read what is written by Guru sahib in the beginning of Vaar sri Bhagauti ji ki.

He writes that God created first double edged sword and then this world. he is the one who created Durga.

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥

तै ही दुरगा साजि कै दैता दा नासु कराइआ ॥

O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.

Var sri Bhagauti ji ki

How do you know the vahiguru ji di fateh texts are Gurus insertion? I though Mani Singh ji put these in along with the composition names when he compiled them. the reason i thought this is because in places it is written 'bani of 10 master' etc- why would Guru Gobind Singh title his own work in that manner: look at beggining of Jaap Sahib:

Here you uncovering your mask as a RSS thug. Do not you know that there were two manuscripts of Dasam granth written during Guru sahib's time. These are Hazuri beer and beer patna. Bhai mani singh's beer was written after wards. Instead of casting doubts on Dasam garnth sahib go and read its history first.

Edited September 1, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

Now heres a question for you Singh2. Answer it:

Is the word Siva or Sivaa?

Answer this question

It is siva.

[Maha Singh]

This is called duality. It means that believe in two religions. it is not allowed in sikhism.

Do not mould sikh teachings per your whims

ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਲਾਗੈ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਧਾਵੈ ॥

Dubidhaa laagai deh dis dhaavai:

Attached to duality, the mind wanders in the ten directions

ang 127.

doojai laagee mahal na paa-ay.

Attached to duality, no one attains the Mansion of the Lord's Presence.

ang 111

Are you sure thats the meaning of Dubidha/Doojai? Please provide a refference from a steek or Mahankosh which reinforces this translation.

[Kaljug]

heres a difference between my view and yours:

So you say it is a 'different' Bhavani, but I say it is the same Bhavani.

irreconciable.

This would be your unique interpretation then which is not in line with Gurmat.

Similarly, when names like Ram, Krishan, Allah, Narayana are used in Gurbani, they are used to signify God the Supreme Being. These are Indian names, not necessarily Hindu, as the use of Allah, Rahim, etc are also used in Gurbani due to the heavy Muslim population in India at the time.

If the people of India worshipped a giant tentacled lobster god called Zorg the Magnificent as the supreme being, one would obviously use the name Zorg the Magnificent when talking to them about about God so that they have a basic understanding of what you are attempting to describe. That doesn't necessarily mean one personally believes that God is a tasty but overpriced sea creature. Ya dig?

The fact that none of the devatas and devis are not considered equiavelent to Akal Purakh is described throughout Gurbani in both Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth. Dasam Granth in particular describes how the devatay worshipped Akal Himself and were overcome with haumai which caused them to direct the worship of their followers to themselves rather than Akal. They all describe themselves as being supreme and to have the characteristics of Nirguna Brahman, but Gurbani tells us that they lie.

Akal is described in Mul Mantar as Karta Purakh, when Gurbani describes the creation of the world by jagadmata, it is Akal who is being referred to, not Durga who is described as a creation of Akal in Chandi di Var as singh2 has shown.

Regards,

K.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Kaljug

[Kaljug]

kaljug

i did not say pathar puja is parvaan in sikhi. i would never say anything is 'parvan' in sikhi. its not my decision to say that.

he asked if he could read Gurbani and continue his Shiv puja. then you people took it upon yourselves to tell him no.

why? who are you to say what to do to him?

reading Gurbani is for anyone. why shouldnt Hindus and Muslims read if they want to? why should they give up their dharam to do it?

He didn't say he was a Hindu, he said he had Hindu and Sikh parents and was confused as to which path to choose, and he specifically asked what Sikhi has to say about pathar puja.

The Singhs here gave him Sikhi gyaan which forbids worship of idols and devatay in Gurbani and in all the rehat maryadas.

You're correct, anyone can read Gurbani, but to be a Sikh is to follow the message of Gurbani.

K.

[shaheediyan]

Kalyug, where as Ram, Krishn, Siva, Durga etc can be understood in the correct context in Gurbani via bani demoting the worship of 'beings' but exalting the Nirgun reality of Parmatma through these names/functions, where in Gurbani is the evidence that ‘Allah’ is a deity, I strongly disagree with you on your promotion of this point.

Please provide strong reference for your argument, be it in the form of a Mahapurkhs Kathaa, Steek or from canonical Sikh text.

Thanks.

PS I still think you are misunderstanding Navjot – he is not promoting stone/deity/being worship.

Plus – regarding Sikh definition – were the NanakShahis, NanakPanthis, Rababis, Non-Amritdhari Sangtan to whom 10th Master has written hukumnamai after 1699, not Sikhs?

Having seeing greatly enlightened souls like Swami Parmanand Ji this weekend – who has the highest love/sharda for and understanding of, Gurbani/Simran, I would choose to again disagree with the narrow definition of Sikhi that is being promoted here.

Anyone can read Gurbani, love it follow it – even whilst following the true and non-contradictory elements of their root faith. Of course to be a Khalsa, then, there needs to be a clean break and total submission to rehit.

Outside of that, Gurbani is for all mankind to read, learn and follow at their own level/time/understanding... its a silly trying to argue who is a Sikh or not, its a pointless conversation, we should simply focus on ourselves (critically) and see the beauty in others. Where there is a disagreement on theology/practice, then do vichaar like ‘Sikhs’ not like a bleeding participant on a Jerry Springer show. That goes for all of us.

[Kaljug]

Fateh!

Kalyug, where as Ram, Krishn, Siva, Durga etc can be understood in the correct context in Gurbani via bani demoting the worship of 'beings' but exalting the Nirgun reality of Parmatma through these names/functions, where in Gurbani is the evidence that ‘Allah’ is a deity, I strongly disagree with you on your promotion of this point.

Please provide strong reference for your argument, be it in the form of a Mahapurkhs Kathaa, Steek or from canonical Sikh text.

I don't mean that Allah in Gurbani is a deity, I mean that "Allah" in Gurbani refers to Nirguna Brahman and not to the Allah who is said by Muslims to have authored the Quran. The evidence in Gurbani is pretty clear by the mere fact that we are not encouraged to follow the injunctions in the Quran about murdering non-Muslims, practising anti-semitism as a religious principle, eating only halal meat and so on, as it is from the texts which describe the lives of the Gurus none of whom followed Muslim customs.

PS I still think you are misunderstanding Navjot – he is not promoting stone/deity/being worship.

No? He has clearly said that Karta Purakh is the same as the Hindu goddess Durga.

Plus – regarding Sikh definition – were the NanakShahis, NanakPanthis, Rababis, Non-Amritdhari Sangtan to whom 10th Master has written hukumnamai after 1699, not Sikhs?

Of course they were Sikhs, but they were Sikhs as far as they were capable of being. If they had begun to argue that some of their private practices like pathar puja, circumsicion, bowing in a certain direction to pray, were encouraged in Gurbani, they would become followers of manmat not gurmat.

Having seeing greatly enlightened souls like Swami Parmanand Ji this weekend – who has the highest love/sharda for and understanding of, Gurbani/Simran, I would choose to again disagree with the narrow definition of Sikhi that is being promoted here.

Exactly what narrow definiton are singh2 or I promoting here? That pathar puja is forbidden in Sikhi? That is the message of Gurbani. That all of the devatay are creations of Akal? This is what Gurbani teaches.

Anyone can read Gurbani, love it follow it – even whilst following the true and non-contradictory elements of their root faith. Of course to be a Khalsa, then, there needs to be a clean break and total submission to rehit.

Agreed, though I would wonder why one would read Gurbani but ignore the message. Still, I would not prevent anyone from doing paath.

Outside of that, Gurbani is for all mankind to read, learn and follow at their own level/time/understanding... its a silly trying to argue who is a Sikh or not, its a pointless conversation, we should simply focus on ourselves (critically) and see the beauty in others. Where there is a disagreement on theology/practice, then do vichaar

Yep, but if someone willfully misinterprets Gurbani to promote their own agenda, no Sikh should sit back and allow it to happen.

K.

[singh2]

PS I still think you are misunderstanding Navjot – he is not promoting stone/deity/being worship.

He says that God extends Himself to be a devi / devta. That is what he has been saying all along.

There is hardly anything left to be misunderstand.

lastly he is telling that Waheguru ji ki fateh might have not been written by Guru gobind singh ji. It might be written By Bhai Mani singh ji. This is exactly in line with kala afghana chelas i.e. casting doubts on sikh scriptures.

This put the Amrit ceremony of 1699 in doubt also where Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguur ji ki fateh was given by Guru sahib to his khalsa.

If we still do not understand him then we have not understood our Gurus message as well.

Edited September 1, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

Of course they were Sikhs, but they were Sikhs as far as they were capable of being. If they had begun to argue that some of their private practices like pathar puja, circumsicion, bowing in a certain direction to pray, were encouraged in Gurbani, they would become followers of manmat not gurmat.

As sikhs we follow gurbani, path shown by Guru sahibs. Gurbani asks us to follow shabad Guru and become Gurmukh.

One who does not follow path of Guru is called manmukh and gurbani comes very harsh on them.

When we do Naam simran it is done by chanting gurmantra. This Gurmantra was given by our Gurus as charan pahul and tenth master converted it to khande bate di pahul.That is the path laid by Guru sahibs.

Gurbani comes strongly on those who ahve not taken Gurmantra

ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੀਣਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੰਤ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਸਟਣਹ ॥

ਕੂਕਰਹ ਸੂਕਰਹ ਗਰਧਭਹ ਕਾਕਹ ਸਰਪਨਹ ਤੁਲਿ ਖਲਹ ॥੩੩॥

Gur mantra heenasah jo praanee dhrigant janam bhrasatanah:

Kookarah sookarah garadhbhah kaakah sarapanah tuli khalah ||33||

That mortal who lacks the Gurumantra — cursed and contaminated is his life.

That blockhead is just a dog, a pig, a jackass, a crow, a snake ||33||

ang 1357

.

Edited September 1, 2009 by singh2

[shaheediyan]

"ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੀਣਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੰਤ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਸਟਣਹ ॥

ਕੂਕਰਹ ਸੂਕਰਹ ਗਰਧਭਹ ਕਾਕਹ ਸਰਪਨਹ ਤੁਲਿ ਖਲਹ ॥੩੩॥"

So your intepretion of this shabd is that all mankind who has not received 'Vaheguru' Gurmantar is nothing more than a pashu?

How about Bhagat Kabir Ji, who received Ram Mantra from his Guru - Swami Ramanand Ji?

Edited September 1, 2009 by shaheediyan

[singh2]

"ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੀਣਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੰਤ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਸਟਣਹ ॥

ਕੂਕਰਹ ਸੂਕਰਹ ਗਰਧਭਹ ਕਾਕਹ ਸਰਪਨਹ ਤੁਲਿ ਖਲਹ ॥੩੩॥"

So your intepretion of this shabd is that all mankind who has not received 'Vaheguru' Gurmantar is nothing more than a pashu?

How about Bhagat Kabir Ji, who received Ram Mantra from his Guru - Swami Ramanand Ji?

We are talking here about sikh philosophy. I do not condemn other paths. But here we talk about sikh teachings.

My quote was from gurbani. i do not mix up different paths to God.

[Kaljug]

Fateh!

AKAAAL GURBAR AKAAALUUH!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6049736321240396923&hl=en

Everyone here should listen to Dr Harpal Singh Pannu katha on Dasam Granth.

In it he describes the reason for Dasmesh Pita's reasons for writing his autobiography in Bachittar Natak by comparing it with other religious figures who wrote their past lives down before doing a great deeds.

He describes the reason for writing Dasam Granth for rachna of Guru Granth Sahib and to prepare the Sikh Panth for dharam yudh. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is for the atma to reach paramatma, and Dasam Granth for the protection of Gursikhs and dharam.

He describes the reasons for Dasmesh Pita writing the Hindu myths from the perpective of Gurmat so that Sikhs did not have to go to Brahmins to understand some of the panktis in Guru Granth Sahib because Brahmins would naturally tell the stories from their own perspective and to describe their own religion as supreme. Dasmesh Pita demotes the Hindu gods from their supreme positions, and gives new arths for old puranic stories to make a point which is unique to Sikhi. In Gurmat, all devatay are created by Akal, including Durga. In Chandi di Var, Akal Purakh creates the trimurti:

ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥

Akal Purakh creates Durga also:

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥

Ram and Krishna, both considered supreme in Hindumat, are created by Akal and receive their power from Him:

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥

He describes the language of Dasam Granth being not at all respectful towards the deities of Hinduism:

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥

In Hindumat, Ganesha is always invoked first before worship to clear away obstacles. Kishan Bishan - who is this krishan, who is this bishan? It's akin to saying Jesus Smeesush!

Similarly, Krishan who is regarded as supreme in Vaishnav schools, is called a worm and is destroyed by Kharag Singh, the Khalsa Panth. He describes this story as being an example of the "poetry of politics". In the story those fighting on the side of Krishna were Muslims, and this is exactly what happened - the purpose of this was to prepare the Sikhs for the treachery of the Hindu rajas who would later fight on the side of the Mughals.

The Bhai Sahib also tells us the reasons for Dasmesh Pita writing so much about Durga but ignoring all the other heroines of hindu mythology like Sita, Draupadi, etc - Durga was the only one who could raise a khanda in her hand to destroy the asuras when the devatas themselves had given up hope.

There's lots more that I couldn't translate because my Punjabi is rusty as hell, but the discussion on Charitropakhyan is well worth a listen. Bhai Sahib describes it as a mercy of Dasmesh Pita who is Himself perfect, but wrote these stories to help his Sikhs perfect their character and refrain from evil acts as they all lead to self-destruction. Dasmesh Pita wrote them in the form of stories because He was too kind-hearted to admonish his Sikhs directly.

Apologies for any mistranslations and errors. If anyone detects an error in my summary of the katha, I will gladly correct it.

Regards,

K.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Kaljug

[Guest]

Bump.. long but good discussion

[chatanga1]

good one neo, bump up some more of the older but "golder" discussions.

[BhagatSingh]

Where is Navjot? Man his argument were laser-like.

Kalijug

You have to remember that this writing started with

ਚੰਡੀ ਦੀ ਵਾਰ

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥

May Chandi be with you.

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਕੈ...

Prithm Bhagauti is Adi Shakti.

Adi Shakti created :

ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

Khanda is the masculine energy (notice how its shaped like phallus, Talwar is curved so it represents feminine energy). Whereas Adi Shakti is feminine. After she created the masculine energy, they danced to create the world.

(The worshippers of Shiv ji, for example, would not agree though, for them it was Shiv ji who came first and create everything else)

In the world then you have:
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥

and Adi Shakti then also created:

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥

And gave strength to/was the strength of:

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥
ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥

And obviously someone who worships Adi Shakti will not worship Sri Ganesh, Sri Krishan or Sri Vishnu (Bishan). Those are all different religions. Worshippers of One God may respect the God of others but they never worship those other Gods. Similarly you may respect Allah or Jesus but you don't worship them.

ਅਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਥਨੰ ॥

Now I praise Devi (the Adi Shakti)

Under the above heading we find:

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥

I don't consider Ganesh to be the supreme. And I never worship Krishna or Vishnu.

I haven't read the entire thread, so I will post more when I do.

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

Where is Navjot? Man his argument were laser-like.

Kalijug

You have to remember that this writing started with

ਚੰਡੀ ਦੀ ਵਾਰ

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥

May Chandi be with you.

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਕੈ...

Prithm Bhagauti is Adi Shakti.

Adi Shakti created :

ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

Khanda is the masculine energy (notice how its shaped like phallus, Talwar is curved so it represents feminine energy). Whereas Adi Shakti is feminine. After she created the masculine energy, they danced to create the world.

(The worshippers of Shiv ji, for example, would not agree though, for them it was Shiv ji who came first and create everything else)

In the world then you have:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥

and Adi Shakti then also created:

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥

And gave strength to/was the strength of:

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥

And obviously someone who worships Adi Shakti will not worship Sri Ganesh, Sri Krishan or Sri Vishnu (Bishan). Those are all different religions. Worshippers of One God may respect the God of others but they never worship those other Gods. Similarly you may respect Allah or Jesus but you don't worship them.

ਅਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਥਨੰ ॥

Now I praise Devi (the Adi Shakti)

Under the above heading we find:

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥

I don't consider Ganesh to be the supreme. And I never worship Krishna or Vishnu.

I haven't read the entire thread, so I will post more when I do.

Veer Ji why is the Aad-Shakti so essential in the Khalsa ethos. Is it a dual form of the lord?