Terms Used In Sri Dasam Granth

[randip singh]

Give us an example what you think is brahminical. Mere generalization does not help.

You have mentioned RSSVHP. Sikhs are not foolish as not to understand their designs.

Guruji worshipped Shiva from passage Deh Shiva......etc from Dasam Granth ji.

[Bijla Singh]

No, Sri Gur Katha does not talk about Guru Sahib worshipping any deity. It is free from mythology.

[randip singh]

No, Sri Gur Katha does not talk about Guru Sahib worshipping any deity. It is free from mythology.

ok.

[Only five]

Guruji worshipped Shiva from passage Deh Shiva......etc from Dasam Granth ji.

Admin Note: (EDITED)

You will get your first warning for repeatedly posting personal attacks. This is ridiculous, this forum has became personal battle ground between you and randip singh. We will not let that happen even if we have to take drastic steps.

[singh2]

Guruji worshipped Shiva from passage Deh Shiva......etc from Dasam Granth ji.

First of all it is not shiva. It is siva. Siva is a reference to akal purakh.

What makes you think that it is a reference to hindu God shiva?

[navjot2]

Sikhs have gone through a difficult period for their very survival. They had to abandon their homes and hearth

. Their literature was looted after sack of Anandpur sahib. But so called scholars of today do not

realize this when they put funny questions. Their questioning does not take into consideration the horrible cirumstances

of that period.

bullshit. just looking for excuses. what has this got to do with what you are saying exactly? that theres no proof because the manuscipts were lost hence scholars shouldnt ask questions? bullshit.

fyi it seems to me that most manuscipts were 'lost' in 1800s, not 1700s. look at the original Zafarnamah for example. now were they really lost or 'conveniently' misplaced?

so funny how these thigns turn to show up with 'only parts remaining'? like they couldnt keep the whole thing safe but managed to grab a few pages?

and this so called gursikh family decided only to realise it now?

The Sodhis maintained the Adi Granth of Guru Arjan Dev up until now. please explain how. because their lineage wasnt mainstream sikh so werent persecuted?

also dont forget that Sikhs werent persecuted in south india (Hazur district) or Bihar, were they?

[navjot2]

First of all it is not shiva. It is siva. Siva is a reference to akal purakh.

What makes you think that it is a reference to hindu God shiva?

NO. It is actually SIVAA (Shivaa). The long 'AA' sound implies it is Goddess Durga.

You can make whatever petty squibles you want, saying 'oh its not Hindu God Shiva/Durga'. But the fact is that Guru used the word Sivaa. Not Vaheguru or Akal Purakh. If you cant even accept that what kind of 'sikh' are you?

Edited August 7, 2009 by navjot2

[singh2]

bullshit. just looking for excuses. what has this got to do with what you are saying exactly? that theres no proof because the manuscipts were lost hence scholars shouldnt ask questions? bullshit.

fyi it seems to me that most manuscipts were 'lost' in 1800s, not 1700s. look at the original Zafarnamah for example. now were they really lost or 'conveniently' misplaced?

so funny how these thigns turn to show up with 'only parts remaining'? like they couldnt keep the whole thing safe but managed to grab a few pages?

and this so called gursikh family decided only to realise it now?

The Sodhis maintained the Adi Granth of Guru Arjan Dev up until now. please explain how. because their lineage wasnt mainstream sikh so werent persecuted?

also dont forget that Sikhs werent persecuted in south india (Hazur district) or Bihar, were they?

You need to learn language required for discussions. Anyway manuscripts were looted after the sack of Anandpur sahib but there were copies available. Then a bir was put in place by Bhai mani singh ji. The previous manuscripts were recovered.

If you know something about Dasam granth you will find that Bhai mani singh's manuscript had zafarnama whereas the other two birs did nit have.

To debunk your nonsense about Dasam granth coming into existence in 1800s see below

http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option...h&Itemid=63

Note: The following is an excerpt from a book, Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab,written by Sir John Malcolm* in 1812. John Malcolm’s work is one of the rarest firsthand information recorded by a western historian on the lifestyle, belief systems and traditions of the Sikhs in Punjab during the 18th century .

Guru-mata

When Gurmata or great national council, is called, (as it always is, or ought to be, when any imminent danger threatens the country, or any large expedition is to be undertaken) all the Sikh chiefs assemble at Amritsar. The assembly, which is called the Guru-mata, is convened by the Acalis; and when the chiefs meet upon this solemn occasion, it is concluded that all private animosities cease, and that every main sacrifices his personal feelings at the shrine of the general good; and, actuated by principles of pure patriotism, thinks of nothing but the interests of the religion, and commonwealth, to which he belongs.

When the chiefs and principal leaders are seated, the Adi-Granth and Dasama Padshah ka Granth are placed before them. They all bend their heads before these scriptures, and exclaim, Wa! Guruji ka Khalsa! Wa! Guruji ki Fateh! A great quantity of cakes, made of wheat, butter, and sugar, are then placed before the volumes of their sacred writings, and covered with a cloth. These holy cakes, which are in commemoration of the injunction of Nanac, to eat and to give to others to eat, next receive the salutation of the assembly, who then rise, and the Acalis pray aloud, while the musicians play. The Acalis, then the prayers are finished, desire the council to be seated. They sit down, and the cakes being uncovered, are eaten of by all classes of Sikhs: those distinctions of original tribes, which are, on occasions, kept up, being on this occasion laid aside, in token of their general and complete union in one cause. The Acalis then exclaim: "Sirdars! (Chiefs) this is Guru-mata!" on which prayers are again said aloud. The chiefs, after this sit closer, and say to each other: "The sacred Granth is betwixt us, let us swear by our scripture to forget all internal disputes, and to be united." This moment of religious fervor and ardent patriotism, is taken to reconcile all animosities. They then proceed to consider the danger with whcih they are threatened, to settle the best plans for averting it, and to choose the generals who are to lead their armies against the common enemy. The first Guru-mata was assembled by Guru Govinid; and the latest was called in 1805, when the British army pursued Holkar into the Penjab.

(pages. 120-123)

________________________

*Sir John Malcolm (May 2, 1769 ‑ 1833) was a Scottish soldier, statesman, and historian. He held various distinguished posts, being Ambassador to Persia, Resident of Gwalior (1803-1804) and Governor of Bombay 1827-1830. He was the author of several valuable works regarded as authorities, viz., Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab (1812), A History of Persia (1815), Memoir of Central India(1823), Political History of India from 1784 to 1823 (1826), and Life of Lord Clive (1836)

Unquote

Yes i know that sikhs were not persecuted in Bihar. That is why there is a manuscript of 1698 still available there . Moreover try to learn about the visit of Charles wilkinson to patna sahib in 1770s wherein he writes about presence fo second granth in parkash.

many times ignorance is bliss . Is not it?

Edited August 7, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

NO. It is actually SIVAA (Shivaa). The long 'AA' sound implies it is Goddess Durga.

You can make whatever petty squibles you want, saying 'oh its not Hindu God Shiva/Durga'. But the fact is that Guru used the word Sivaa. Not Vaheguru or Akal Purakh. If you cant even accept that what kind of 'sikh' are you?

Chandi charitra starts with as below

ਚੰਡੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ (ੳਕਤਿ ਬਿਲਾਸ)

चंडी चरित्र (उकति बिलास)

NAME OF THE BANI.

ੴ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ ॥

ੴ वाहिगुरू जी की फतहि ॥

The Lord is one and the Victory is of the Lord.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥

स्री भगउती जी सहाइ ॥

xxxx

ਅਥ ਚੰਡੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਉਕਤਿ ਬਿਲਾਸ ਲਿਖਯਤੇ ॥

अथ चंडी चरित्र उकति बिलास लिखयते ॥

Now begin the extraordinary feats from the Life of Chandi:

ਪਾਤਸਾਹੀ ੧੦

पातसाही १०

From the Holy Mouth of the Tenth King (Guru)

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ

स्वैया

SWAYYA

ਆਦਿ ਅਪਾਰ ਅਲੇਖ ਅਨੰਤ ਅਕਾਲ ਅਭੇਖ ਅਲਖ ਅਨਾਸਾ ॥

आदि अपार अलेख अनंत अकाल अभेख अलख अनासा ॥

The Lord is Primal, Infinite, Account less, Boundless, Deathless, Garbless, Incomprehensible and Eternal.

ਕੈ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤ ਦਏ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਚਾਰ ਰਜੋ ਤਮ ਸਤ ਤਿਹੂੰ ਪੁਰ ਬਾਸਾ ॥

कै सिव सकत दए स्रुति चार रजो तम सत तिहूं पुर बासा ॥

He created Shiva-Shakti, forur Vedas and three modes of maya and Pervades in three worlds.

ਦਿਉਸ ਨਿਸਾ ਸਸਿ ਸੂਰ ਕੈ ਦੀਪਕ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਰਚੀ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸਾ ॥

दिउस निसा ससि सूर कै दीपक स्रिसटि रची पंच तत प्रकासा ॥

He created day and night, the lamps of sun and moon and the whole world with five elements.

ਬੈਰ ਬਢਾਇ ਲਰਾਇ ਸੁਰਾਸੁਰ ਆਪਹਿ ਦੇਖਤ ਬੈਠ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥੧॥

बैर बढाइ लराइ सुरासुर आपहि देखत बैठ तमासा ॥१॥

He extended enmity and fight between the gods and demons and Himself seated (on His Throne) scans it.1.

Unquote

navjot2,

Please read the above given invocation of Chandi charitra and let me know where do you smell Durga in the above verses ? Is it not a clear reference to akal purakh. That is the belief system of Poet i.e. Guru ji. How can Guru ji after invoking akal purakh in the beginning invoke Durga in the end? Need to remember that meanings of words change with respect to context where these are used. So siva means akal purakh there whose attributes are

ਆਦਿ ਅਪਾਰ ਅਲੇਖ ਅਨੰਤ ਅਕਾਲ ਅਭੇਖ ਅਲਖ ਅਨਾਸਾ ॥

आदि अपार अलेख अनंत अकाल अभेख अलख अनासा ॥

The Lord is Primal, Infinite, Account less, Boundless, Deathless, Garbless, Incomprehensible and Eternal.

(Chandi Charitra ukti bilas)

Makes sense to you? Debate with contents from the composition and not from your preconceived ideas.

Edited August 7, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

If you cant even accept that what kind of 'sikh' are you

What kind of a sikh you are who is attributing something to Guru sahib what he never said.

[navjot2]

please spare me your crap, Mr 'Google Scholar'. You cannot talk straightforwadly so run to making bitchy aside comments. Why is your argument that weak? Like your ideological brothers used to admin cut about McLeod. Funny they couldnt right anything half as clear? Heres some more Google reading for you too:

1. whats this stuff about Bhai Mani Singh recording Zafarnamah?

How did the Zafarnama, in its present form, reach us? Original letter written in the hand of Guru Ji in not available. However it is said that a copy of Zafarnama, written in the hand of Guru Ji, was found with the Mahant of Patna Sahib in 1890 and one Babu Jagan Nath made a copy; this copy was somehow misplaced by him. Since Babu Jagan Nath was himself a scholar in Persian language, he could reproduce it from his memory and got it printed in Nagri Parcharni Patrika in Benaras. He is also believed to have sent a copy to Sardar Umrao Singh Shergill in Amritsar who is said to have given it to Khalsa college and which in turn reproduced in Makhz-e Twarikh Sikhan. In Punjab newspapers, it first appeared in the Khalsa Samachar of 16 July 1942. Then in 1944, Sardar Kapur Singh ICS published it in Urdu Ajit of Lahore under the heading "Fatehnama". It is quite possible that in the process of translations and publications of Zafarnama at different stages, some verses were not reproduced correctly and what we have today is not the original Zafarnama of Guru Ji in its entirety. The abrupt end of Zafarnama also indicates that it is not complete and that some verses have been left out. Objections raised by some scholars on the authenticity of a few verses may be viewed in this context.

http://www.zafarnama.com/

at least that guy spelled it out clearly, unlike you. so whats your story? shall I go google it myself and save you the effort?

2. i didnt say Dasam Granth came into existance in 1800. (im not even anti- Dasam Granth btw). I am disputing the authenticity of so called historical texts that sudddenly show up. I am not disputing that Bhai Mani Singh maybe did compile Dasam Granth after Mahasamadhi of Guru Gobind Singh. But I am not a follower of Bhai Mani Singh sorry he wasnt a Guru. If you people want to follow him thats your choice. But you better clarify what is the work of Bhai Mani Singh and what was authorised by Guru Gobind Singh and stop misleading people.

3. What does this 'Guru Mata' stuff prove? That sikhs used to hold meetings? So everything the sikhs did in 1800 is correct?

Edited August 8, 2009 by navjot2

[SAadmin]

Guys keep it cool here, take a deep breath guys, have a mutual respect towards each other. Personal attacks no go in this place

[singh2]

please spare me your crap, Mr 'Google Scholar'. You cannot talk straightforwadly so run to making bitchy aside comments. Why is your argument that weak? Like your ideological brothers used to admin cut about McLeod. Funny they couldnt right anything half as clear? Heres some more Google reading for you too:

1. whats this stuff about Bhai Mani Singh recording Zafarnamah?

How did the Zafarnama, in its present form, reach us? Original letter written in the hand of Guru Ji in not available. However it is said that a copy of Zafarnama, written in the hand of Guru Ji, was found with the Mahant of Patna Sahib in 1890 and one Babu Jagan Nath made a copy; this copy was somehow misplaced by him. Since Babu Jagan Nath was himself a scholar in Persian language, he could reproduce it from his memory and got it printed in Nagri Parcharni Patrika in Benaras. He is also believed to have sent a copy to Sardar Umrao Singh Shergill in Amritsar who is said to have given it to Khalsa college and which in turn reproduced in Makhz-e Twarikh Sikhan. In Punjab newspapers, it first appeared in the Khalsa Samachar of 16 July 1942. Then in 1944, Sardar Kapur Singh ICS published it in Urdu Ajit of Lahore under the heading "Fatehnama". It is quite possible that in the process of translations and publications of Zafarnama at different stages, some verses were not reproduced correctly and what we have today is not the original Zafarnama of Guru Ji in its entirety. The abrupt end of Zafarnama also indicates that it is not complete and that some verses have been left out. Objections raised by some scholars on the authenticity of a few verses may be viewed in this context.

http://www.zafarnama.com/

at least that guy spelled it out clearly, unlike you. so whats your story? shall I go google it myself and save you the effort?

2. i didnt say Dasam Granth came into existance in 1800. (im not even anti- Dasam Granth btw). I am disputing the authenticity of so called historical texts that sudddenly show up. I am not disputing that Bhai Mani Singh maybe did compile Dasam Granth after Mahasamadhi of Guru Gobind Singh. But I am not a follower of Bhai Mani Singh sorry he wasnt a Guru. If you people want to follow him thats your choice. But you better clarify what is the work of Bhai Mani Singh and what was authorised by Guru Gobind Singh and stop misleading people.

3. What does this 'Guru Mata' stuff prove? That sikhs used to hold meetings? So everything the sikhs did in 1800 is correct?

I was waiting for you to prove that guru sahib asked boon from Durga. But you failed miserably in that. Now you are avoiding the reply on that.

You are not aware what is in Dasam granth and starts writing crap like RSS thugs.

Can you show me where is your Durga from whom you claim Guru ji was asking boon? Reply to that first.

[singh2]

Guys keep it cool here, take a deep breath guys, have a mutual respect towards each other. Personal attacks no go in this place

N30 singh

I am keeping cool inspite of personal attacks. Instead pointing out to me you should take up with other side.

[SAadmin]

Not pointing at anyone just general observation. I am in the process of editing personal attacks...if things does not improve, warnings will be given to violaters.

[navjot2]

It makes me laugh to see people on this board so liberally quote Gurbani or Dasam Granth. The fact is that minus the English translation, you people wouldnt even touch it. You wouldnt have even half a leg to stand on. You do not even know how accurate the English translaion would be. You people all the time act as if you knwo alot more than you really do

Who/what is Chandi do you know? Do you know what Durga is in essence? i suggest you try and understand the idea od Shiva/Shakti.

for the second time, it says SIVAA not Siva. ਸਿਵਾ . This clearly refers to the central character of this text, Chandi di Vaar, whos is Chandi Herself.

Now you go ask a Durga devotee/pundit who Sivaa is and he will tell you its a name of Durga. So now the question arises who is Durga (in relation to Siva)?

Edited August 8, 2009 by navjot2

[singh2]

Navjot2 wrote

.

whats this stuff about Bhai Mani Singh recording Zafarnamah?

How did the Zafarnama, in its present form, reach us? Original letter written in the hand of Guru Ji in not available. However it is said that a copy of Zafarnama, written in the hand of Guru Ji, was found with the Mahant of Patna Sahib in 1890 and one Babu Jagan Nath made a copy; this copy was somehow misplaced by him. Since Babu Jagan Nath was himself a scholar in Persian language, he could reproduce it from his memory and got it printed in Nagri Parcharni Patrika in Benaras. He is also believed to have sent a copy to Sardar Umrao Singh Shergill in Amritsar who is said to have given it to Khalsa college and which in turn reproduced in Makhz-e Twarikh Sikhan. In Punjab newspapers, it first appeared in the Khalsa Samachar of 16 July 1942. Then in 1944, Sardar Kapur Singh ICS published it in Urdu Ajit of Lahore under the heading "Fatehnama". It is quite possible that in the process of translations and publications of Zafarnama at different stages, some verses were not reproduced correctly and what we have today is not the original Zafarnama of Guru Ji in its entirety. The abrupt end of Zafarnama also indicates that it is not complete and that some verses have been left out. Objections raised by some scholars on the authenticity of a few verses may be viewed in this context.

http://www.zafarnama.com/

So you hardly know the histroy of zafarnama as your top line indicates. You are a google scholar oterhwise you would have known what is the link of zafarnama with Bhai mani singh ji.

Bhai mani singh compiled a combined bir of SGGS and Dasam granth. Since zafarnama was written after compilation of hazuri bir, it was included in Bhai mani singh's bir. Zafarnama is also

mentioned in rehtanamas.

2. i didnt say Dasam Granth came into existance in 1800. (im not even anti- Dasam Granth btw). I am disputing the authenticity of so called historical texts that sudddenly show up. I am not disputing that Bhai Mani Singh maybe did compile Dasam Granth after Mahasamadhi of Guru Gobind Singh. But I am not a follower of Bhai Mani Singh sorry he wasnt a Guru. If you people want to follow him thats your choice. But you better clarify what is the work of Bhai Mani Singh and what was authorised by Guru Gobind Singh and stop misleading people.

I do not understand whta you are trying to say here. Read my first post and Bhai mani singh's name came because of zafarnama.

3. What does this 'Guru Mata' stuff prove? That sikhs used to hold meetings? So everything the sikhs did in 1800 is correct?

That proves heritage of sikhs and those who are sikhs feel proud of their past.

[singh2]

It makes me laugh to see people on this board so liberally quote Gurbani or Dasam Granth. The fact is that minus the English translation, you people wouldnt even touch it. You wouldnt have even half a leg to stand on. You do not even know how accurate the English translaion would be. You people all the time act as if you knwo alot more than you really do

Who are those people. Are you not one of those people or you are out of them?

Who/what is Chandi do you know? Do you know what Durga is in essence? i suggest you try and understand the idea od Shiva/Shakti. In this school there is Shiva (Siva) which is the Pure God completely Unattached and Beyond anything. Then there is Shakti which is his active counterpart, by which he expresses himself. Without Shakti (manifestation) it would not be possible to worship the Unmanifest

.

In what school? Can you be specific. Guru sahib has clearly advised us

mahdeo ko kehat sada siv

Nirankar ka cheenta nahi bhiv

( Those who call Mahadeo( a refrence to hindu God shiva) Lord

know not even an iota of formless Lord)

for the second time, it says SIVAA not Siva. ਸਿਵਾ . This clearly refers to the central character of this text, Chandi di Vaar.

What about this one

gurmukh maDhusoodan nistaaray.

gurmukh sangee krisan muraaray.

ang 98

By your logic it means Lord Krishna. But it is not. It is refrence to Akal Purakh

Now you go ask a Durga devotee/pundit who Sivaa is and he will tell you its a name of Durga. So now the question arises who is Durga?

Also, who is being spoken to in Chaupai when it says "kripaa kari ham par jagmaataa."?

look at this quote: "ਨਮੋ ਅੰਬਿਕਾ ਤੋਤਲਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥੧੩॥੨੩੨॥ ". (240) Namo Ambika? Sri Bhavani?

my personal take is that the Goddess (Shakti) is seen as Akal's (Siva- as you cited) greatest servant/devotee.

These are all reerences to Akal purakh and not to any deity. We do not need any pandit to tell us.

Per hindu mythology Durga is absolute power. In dasam granth Durga is creation of God whose attributes are in mool mantra.

Her dimensions have been changed by Guru sahib.

It is all praise of akal purakh who is creator of these deities. Read below

SWAYYA

ਤਾਰਨ ਲੋਕ ਉਧਾਰਨ ਭੂਮਹਿ ਦੈਤ ਸੰਘਾਰਨ ਚੰਡਿ ਤੁਹੀ ਹੈ ॥

तारन लोक उधारन भूमहि दैत संघारन चंडि तुही है ॥

Thou art the same Chandika, who ferries across the people; Thou art the redeemer of the earth and destroyer of the demons.

ਕਾਰਨ ਈਸ ਕਲਾ ਕਮਲਾ ਹਰਿ ਅਦ੍ਰਸੁਤਾ ਜਹ ਦੇਖੇ ਉਹੀ ਹੈ ॥

कारन ईस कला कमला हरि अद्रसुता जह देखे उही है ॥

Thou art the cause of the Shakti of Shiva, Lakshmi of Vishnu and Parvati, the daughter of Himavan, wherever we see, Thou art there.

ਤਾਮਸਤਾ ਮਮਤਾ ਨਮਤਾ ਕਵਿਤਾ ਕਵਿ ਕੇ ਮਨ ਮਧਿ ਗੁਹੀ ਹੈ ॥

तामसता ममता नमता कविता कवि के मन मधि गुही है ॥

Thou art Tams, the quality of morbidity, mineness and modesty; Thou art poetry, latent in the mind of the poet.

ਕੀਨੋ ਹੈ ਕੰਚਨ ਲੋਹ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਪਾਰਸ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਾਇ ਛੁਹੀ ਹੈ ॥੪॥

कीनो है कंचन लोह जगत्र मै पारस मूरति जाइ छुही है ॥४॥

Thou art the philosopher`s stone in the world, which transforms the iron into gold that it touches.4.

Chandi Charitra Ukti bilas

Edited August 8, 2009 by singh2

[Matheen]

singh2: some good posts, I think you've made your point wery well, backed up with Gurbani.

Navjot: how would you write Siva in Gurmukhi? Also, sri Gur Katha has not suddenly appeared out of nowhere. It's been known of in traditional taksals for a very long time, just never published or translated. Just because you haven't heard of it before doesn't make it suspicious.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Matheen

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and Navjot2 Jee!

Thanks for your posts. A true seeker may ponder over your questions.

Reverend Gurus have used words like Siv, Sivaa. Nowhere they said, they are Hindus. Some Sikhs are but not able to get rid of Hindu Gods.

God and His Activities are not Hindus or Sikhs.

Balbir Singh

[navjot2]

So you hardly know the histroy of zafarnama as your top line indicates. You are a google scholar oterhwise you would have known what is the link of zafarnama with Bhai mani singh ji.

Bhai mani singh compiled a combined bir of SGGS and Dasam granth. Since zafarnama was written after compilation of hazuri bir, it was included in Bhai mani singh's bir. Zafarnama is also

mentioned in rehtanamas.

At least that guy gives details. You are just giving me some fairy story about what Bhai Mani Singh did without any explanation. Am i reading this right? Are you saying that Zafarnama was written after the 'Hazuri Bir' so some sikh at some popitn just added it to it?

That proves heritage of sikhs and those who are sikhs feel proud of their past.

good for you! but this has not value to this discussion at all.

[navjot2]

What kind of a sikh you are who is attributing something to Guru sahib what he never said.

are you denying he used the word Sivaa?

[singh2]

are you denying he used the word Sivaa?

He used the word siva for akal purakh who was there before Durga, is there and will always be there.

Edited August 8, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

At least that guy gives details. You are just giving me some fairy story about what Bhai Mani Singh did without any explanation. Am i reading this right? Are you saying that Zafarnama was written after the 'Hazuri Bir' so some sikh at some popitn just added it to it?

Dasam Granth banis were different compositions written at different time. Zafarnama was written

later after Guru sahib left Anandpur sahib. That was added by mani singh ji to other compositions

of Guru sahib when he compiled his bir.

[navjot2]

Oh so now Mahdeo is a reference to the 'Hindu' Shiva yet Shivaa isnt 'Hindu' Durga? How strangely selective! so it refers only to a Hindu Deva when it suits your argument? By the way, are you aware that Sadashiv is actually a single word? Some people think the word 'sada' is seperate as in 'continuous', but how do they know it is not the word 'Sadashiv' being used here?

And the Shiva you think is being descrbied in Chandi di Vaar is Akal and is someone different from the Shiva mentioned elsewhere in Gurbani? Strange! And how do you determine which is which? Whatever suits your fancy?

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What you quoted also- Yes those words refer to Krishna. Otherwise how is Akal Purakh, who I assume is Nirgun, being described as with a Flute (murraray) or the slayer of demon Madhu? Isnt that sakhi fo Krishna slaying Madhu?... Is it perhaps that It is Akal who is in Essence Krishna? And vice versa? GASP!

Words like Madhusudan and Krishan Murraray refer specifically to Krishna. This may not make sense to you but is a Vaishnava reads it they will get it straight away that it refers to Akal. Only they call It Krishna.

You and your ideological buddys may be fixated on the word 'Akal' but Gurus weren't. sorry. the truth is that there is more than one way of looking at things. 'aapay ek aapay anek'. You people want to formulate an conceptual God in order to feel self satified but it seems to me that Gurbani warns us about trying to limit God to anything.

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First you are saying that Shivaa is refering to Akal Purakh and not Durga even though it is a name of Durga and in the text Itself it describes this same 'Shivaa' living on mount Kailash, who rides a lion. So you cannot run away that this Shivaa is that same Chandi who is wielding the sword (i.e. Durga).

To Hindus Durga is: 1. union of shiva and shakti (where Shiva means Akal and Shakti means power of nature) 2. the protector of the Devas (which is what is happening in the story- Indra has sought out a Devi named who lives on Mount Kailash). 3. Power of Shiva (what you call Akal). (That is my understanding anyway).

So you can say make up whatever little explanations you want (which frankly anyone can do, be they RSS, Kala Afghana, Charlie Chaplins descendents etc etc) it doesnt mean anything.

Saying that Durga, Chandi etc are in essence forms of Akal Purakhs splendour is not something I am argueing with. but whereas I see it as marvellous you appear to see it in some bigoted fashion.

You can selectively quote from the Dasam Granth all you want. I can do the same. so you can spare me your 'quoting' games.

Edited August 8, 2009 by navjot2