Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare

[CdnSikhGirl]

Nice try... re-read the second line... it states specifically that there is no problem that women can be Panj

Edited August 23, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[savinderpalsingh]

Nice try... re-read the second line... it states specifically that there is no problem that women can be Panj

hmm

why dont you try doing that in historical gurudwara lets see how it goes , or ask the sgpc itself?

i think its contradicting with itself, in the 3rd line , it says 5 darshani singh's

also

it was all in devine order

all of those 5 pyaare were bhagats in previous life

and they were boung to become panj pyaare in second life and take amrit

so honor that , and every aspect of it. No women mata sahib kaur ji, mai bhago etc never took part in amrit sanchar

because it was all in devine order

now when you see this maryada is man made by sgpc , it was made by a collection of 23-25 people

its not the one that is handed down by guru gobind singh ji

Edited August 23, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[CdnSikhGirl]

Here is the response from the SGPC Jathedar I know:

And I guess I know how u view women. As less than men because it's some divine order that men are better or more spiritual?? You actually suggested (not in exact words but its strongly intimated) that men are the form people are born into when they reach higher spirituality. Hence, without saying it, you came out and suggested women lack in spirituality compared to men.

it was all in devine order

all of those 5 pyaare were bhagats in previous life
and they were boung to become panj pyaare in second life and take amrit

That sounds very Brahministical to me!!! (women needing to be born first in a male 'joon' in before they can attain mukhti sounds like something from Hinduism) Sikhi teaches ANYONE can merge with God in THIS lifetime...Regardless of gender. You are acting like it's privilege or a reward to be born male. Perhaps you think women should all be barred from taking Amrit altogether, since you believe we can not fufill all duties of Khalsa, meaning women would never truly be fully Khalsa in this thinking, so why even allow us to take Amrit in the first place? Maybe Khalsa should be kept entirely as a boy's club??

Also DDT's Rehet Maryada is not entirely traceable to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Just because someone says it does, doesn't make it true... It's only entirely traceable back to Sant Sundar Singh Ji. I challenge you to prove otherwise with actual evidence!

Quoted from another site:

"Damdami Taksal maryada is maryada of Baba Gurbachan Singh. AKJ is of Bhai Sahhib Bhai Randheer Singh. Nanaksar is Baba Nand Singh and his chela Gurmukh SIngh or something and Akaal Takht is Panth Parvaanat made by the Panth. - Taksal maryada is not the maryada from Guru Ji. Taksal maryada has so many brahmnical rituals. How can it be from Guru Ji. Also if it was from Guru Ji. Why did the SGPC hold all those meetings and debates and discussions to make a new maryada. Maryada given by Guru Ji was lost. If Mahants were able to change Akaal Takht maryada, then what was Taksal? Taksal was nothing before Bhai Jarnail Singh. He stood up for Sikh rights and gave his martyrdom. That is how Taksal became popular but now they are taking it too far. They can try but the real Tat Gurmat will always be the way. It is in best interest of Taksal to apply Sikh Rehat Maryada given at www.sgpc.net at their deras. Else, all they are doing is hurting Sikh sentiments and going against Guru Ji.

And as I promised.... Here is the response direct from SGPC on the question of women and Panj Pyare (note that he also continued on to say any reference to "Singh" is not done to discriminate or allow participation based on gender. It was used more in the same light that we refer to Waheguru Ji as "he" when we know from Mool Mantra Waheguru Ji is beyond gender or form at all. It's also the same way we refer to "Khalsa" Women also can take Amrit... but we are all still called Khalsa even though it's male form of the word. To add on to that, like 'man' is used for 'mankind' in general terms. And also use of Singhni now in the same light.

And most of the historical gurdwaras are being run by those trained by DDT... hence they may state they use SGPC SRM, but in reality are using GRM. It's the same reason why SGPC SRM is SUPPOSED to be used at Sri Harmandir Sahib... but in reality DDT's RM has been followed there due to so many DDT members being in control.

This is direct from SGPC Jathedar regarding Panj Pyare:

Edited August 24, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[chatanga1]

And I guess I know how u view women. As less than men because it's some divine order that men are better or more spiritual?? You actually suggested (not in exact words but its strongly intimated) that men are the form people are born into when they reach higher spirituality. Hence, without saying it, you came out and suggested women lack in spirituality compared to men.

You always take the inference that to say something is different means one is better or weaker. It's really becoming a little tiring.

Also DDT's Rehet Maryada is not entirely traceable to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Just because someone says it does, doesn't make it true... It's only entirely traceable back to Sant Sundar Singh Ji. I challenge you to prove otherwise with actual evidence!

There are many aspects of Sikhi that cannot be based on actual evidence. I have already told you before that oral tradition and history plays a big part of Sikhi. Your challenge for this only shows your own silliness/immaturity on this subject, although i know that as you have been fraternising with the akj, you will be prone to the same (mis)views as them.

Please reconsider who you go to for information on Sikhi, as the akj are not one of the best to go to. Although it seems to me, that you mill around those that agree with what you believe Gurmat is.

[das]

Satkirin, Why handicapped persons cannot be Panj Payaras?? Isn't that denying their right, just as you're suggesting that there should be equality??

[CdnSikhGirl]

You don't realize it goes way beyond a mere rule. To say that only men can be panj is outright saying that women REQUIRE men for their spiritual progression while men do not require women. It's saying that women are somehow less spiritual or further from Waheguru Ji. So it's not just a matter of saying 'sorry dear men only' it goes to the core of women and how they are seen by our creator.

How would you feel if you were told your spiritual progression entirely depended on women because your gender is not good enough?

And I don't know why it's an issue anyway when SGPC states their position. Not AKJ, SGPC!! I already said I go by SGPC SRM and not ANY jatha.

I was responding to his post and refuting his sad attempt to ignore the second line in that section of SRM. And I provided actual response from SGPC Jathedar.

Oh the problem with oral tradition... Have you ever played the secret circle game when you were in school? Where someone starts the secret and it's passed around the circle and the final secret is nothing like the one that started. Written down is the only way...

[chatanga1]

Written down is the only way...

You are so naive if you beleive that, or have been unable to go past the sgpc(80 years old) or the akj ( 100 years old) for your knowledge.

[savinderpalsingh]

Your blind urge to proove every RM wrong and deny even DDT and other sect's Maryada is idiotic

Lets take your loved SGPC first

first let me make this very clear !!, there is no panth without DDT/Nihangs/ and other sects of sikhism . dont make it whole panth parvan when they dont even accept sgpc

even Delhi /patna /hazur sahib/damdama sahib . dont accept SGPC

how is it panth parvan?

how did SGPC came into role by britishers ! who wanted some relaxed like minded people to take control of gurudwara's

earlier it was under 5th takhat, Nihang singh's Budha dal

Then they provoked bibiyan , who went latter and broke jathedar's leg and by doing this jathedar of panth (nihang singh jathedar) was very hurt and agreed to sign that they are leaving Harmandir sahib !!

What is jathedar?

jathedar stands for general of army

what army does stupid SGPC has?

There is only one jathedar of whole panth , current one is

baba surjit singh ji 96 croori nighang singh ji

who is currently in jail by SGPC baddal's false charges

SGPC rehat maryada has been changed many times

here are following points which we dont like

..the original Maryada gives the definition of a Sikh as “Any human being who believes in all Sikh Gurus in One Immortal Being, (ii.) Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib, (iii.) Guru Granth Sahib, and the utterances and teachings of the 10 Gurus and baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh.

...the amended Punjabi version has deleted ‘Dassan’ (meaning all 10 from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh)

So this means that Naamdharis are accepted back now? They who rejected The Guru Granth Maharaj as their one and only Guru?

The amendment in the Sikh 60-year-old Rehat Maryada by the SGPC has evoked a strong reaction from Sikh intellectuals.

Why change it?

.the deletion of ‘plucking of gray hair’ from the new version of Maryada...

?!?! again, this is wrong. I swear there's a story where a Singh plucked a grey hair from his beard and was chastised by Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj for it.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060306/punjab1.htm#5

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/sgpc-and-damdami-taksal-lock-horns-over-maryada-in-punjab/1/302896.html

here's your SGPC didnt even stop Badal's daughter in law doing beadbi at gurudwara

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/75249-harsimrat-kumari-badal-refused-to-drink-langar-water-needs-bisleri/

Can you present the documents that states SGPC Rehat Maryada received the stamp as the final Rehat Maryada for all Sikhs? The Sikhs involved in making the big decision of whether to accept the SGPC Rehat were all broken up. Many Sikhs walked out on this decision and many expressed their view that thiis can never be the final Rehat Maryada for the Sikhs. The final decision that came out of this meeting was that this matter of Rehat Maryada will be taken up again at a later date. This later date never came and today many cunning Sikhs want rest of the Khalsa Panth to believe this is the final and only Rehat Maryada for Sikhs.

thanks to your so called "SGPC"

i think in a few years they may change it so we can wear chocolate Kachere and have carry catapaults instead of the Kirpan.

DamDami Taksal !!

http://www.damdamitaksal.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2&Itemid=3

the history itself speaks how the rehat was passed down !!

i laugh at your weird sense at saying how everything is related to bramhan wad etc

DDT wants to capture? gurudwaras?

here's Your SGPC taskforce , intitiating attack

your soo called SGPC , gave a saropa to general dwyer after all what he made a lot of sikhs suffer !! read it here http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publication/nightsoffalsehood/falsehood3.htm

the autenticity you should be worrying about is SGPC not DDT or other sects of sikhism

heres your beloved sgpc fighting haryana sikhs for not letting them make seperate committee for haryana and even without discussing with other takhats , handed out verdict to put them out of khalsa panth every haryana sikh is that logical?

where was your SGPC when this happened in saharanpur?

oh yes , nihangs came latter to give pehra

taksal has always been great and been led by Bhramgiani's

Edited August 26, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[savinderpalsingh]

you're wrong and lost in your own perception that there is inequality ! we respect women , but as per devine order there would be only panj singhs as panj pyaare

That sounds very Brahministical to me!!! (women needing to be born first in a male 'joon' in before they can attain mukhti sounds like something from Hinduism) Sikhi teaches ANYONE can merge with God in THIS lifetime...Regardless of gender. You are acting like it's privilege or a reward to be born male. Perhaps you think women should all be barred from taking Amrit altogether, since you believe we can not fufill all duties of Khalsa, meaning women would never truly be fully Khalsa in this thinking, so why even allow us to take Amrit in the first place? Maybe Khalsa should be kept entirely as a boy's club??

your the only one who thinks that way , you sound like , anti dasam granth people

no where i said that women are less ,infact we worship the adh shakti aspect which is female and which is represented by power and shastars

again you're just putting words into my mouth which i never said , anyhow . people see or imagine things of what they are

neither i beilieve in sgpc , not your so called jathedar

the 2nd line about which you been so emphasising

it means there can be bibiyan as sewadar's to help female abhilakhi's but only 5 singhs can be panj pyaare.

its in reference that there should be atleast 5 singh's for amrit which is prooven in 3rd line of SGPC RM

and no !! your jathedar is not thinking correct . he is making simple gurmukhi complicated

again its simple,

the word panj pyaare it self means

5 singhs if it was mixed , it would be 5 sikhs

or for women only it would be panj pyaariyaan

Lol and the fateh would be different?

the word panj pyaare itself denies this

SGPC jathedar? dont make me laugh !! they say do only 3 baani's in morning

so here are few from older rehats

Bhai Gurmukh Singh of Punjab University published a book "Bhai Jaita Ji Tay Rachna" in which he gives references to hand written accounts. Bhai Jaita Ji was a Sikh of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji and brought Guru Sahib's Sees to Anandpur Sahib. Later he took Amrit in 1699 and became Bhai Jeevan Singh. He wrote down what he witnessed and the hand written account now resides in Faridkot.

"Five Singhs administer Amrit, to whose command you must take on your head to receive the boon of Amrit. The five narrate a discipline, which is to be thought of at all times and never forgotten."

(Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh ji)

paa(n)ch si(n)gh a(n)mrith jo dhaevai(n) thaa(n) ko sir dhhar shhak pun laevai ||apun mil paa(n)cho rehith jo bhaakhai thaa(n) ko man mae(n) dhrirr kar raakhai ||

Offer you head and take the Amrit prepared by five Singhs. The code of conduct (Rehat), which they bless you with, should be enshrined in one's heart.

Krith Bilaas Paathshahee Dasvee

the saints follow guru's Hukam

many bhramgiani's have said the same thing

you can read what guru sahib says about bhramgiani's in sukhmani sahib

also the rehat we use in hazur sahib, came from singhs from harmandir sahib long ago.

i will give you a biography of a bhramgiani's mahapurash sant

i forgot his name that mahapursh lived in nanded , hazur sahib

when he was a little kid, he insisted on taking amrit.

however as usual his parents denied

the kid went to jungle and kept crying alone and praying to waheguru

Then 5 Singhs panj pyaare came from sky and gave him amrit

same thing happened again when he wanted a farla

why did 5 singhs came , why not bibiyan in them? because that was devine order

Singh is not used in context , its exactly what it means, a singh , - no context

khalsa was used because there is no word as khalsi

since in gurmukhi we have words as "singhniyan, bibiyan, matawan, bhenaa" the the context concept goes out the window.

there have been many bhramgiani accounts which say , its out reflection of what we are as the soul goes

also

heres question from to a bhramgiani previous jathedar moni ji of hazur sahib

also to proove that eerything was in devine order !!
here it is written in baani khalsa moolmantar

So, in last again!!

i would say , that we regard women a lot, but we repect the devine order and the puratan rehatnama's given by guru gobind singh ji himself and the word or bhramgiani saints as well

we dont differentiate or belive they are any less, but as jarnail singh ji bhindranwale said

if women were at that time in panj pyaare, we would have no objection

Edited August 25, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[CdnSikhGirl]

Wow. you really sound brainwashed savinderpalsingh... the same divine light is in everyone, there IS no 'order' or heirarchies. That is a false precept and an illusion. Gurbani tells us this! You totally sound like you just want to be 'better than someone else' by putting women beneath yourself. Pur ego. How can you ever wish to surpass the cycle of births and deaths and meet God, with that thinking? It is my humble opinion that It would be beneficial for your soul to be reborn as a woman who is being discriminated, so that you can learn a thing or two.

Read the response from my friend on the other forum. Actually, wait I will copy it here, so everyone can read it. He consults Gurbani on the issue entirely. Not ego, not a desire to be better than others, not a desire of some sense of self entitlement being a male. And in this day and age, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the one true beacon we all have and must abide by.

The Issue Of Equality Of Women In Sikhi From The Standpoint Of Gurbani

By Dr. Kirpal Singh

University of London

Fellow Singhs, a disturbing trend has been emerging as of late, where we insist on excluding our Mothers, Sisters and Daughters from full participation in our faith. We must seriously ask ourselves where our desire to this is coming from. We seem to have this deep seated desire to exclude women from Panj Pyare seva, sukhasan seva, kirtan, palki seva at Darbar Sahib as if we consider ourselves to be above women and somehow more privileged.

Since we don’t truly know what Guru Ji intended regarding exclusion of women, as Sikhs we have two choices in this matter. And our choices should be based upon Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. Either way, we will be judged on whichever choices we make by Waheguru Ji when the time comes, so we should really think hard if we can justify our actions with Gurbani. Will Waheguru Ji be pleased with us or disappointed with us in the end?

So our two choices are:

1. Allow women to participate equally, assuming that Guru Ji;s silence on the issue intended everyone to be treated as equals, recognizing the divine light within all and the genderless nature of our soul; or
2. Exclude women from full participation and exclude them from Panj Pyare seva. In this case we are assuming that Guru Ji intended to restrict women under men, as some sort of divine order where one gender has privilege over the other.

Let’s look now to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our ONLY guru, for guidance on our choices:

Are all humans considered equal?

Page 93, Line 18
ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਸਮ ਦਲ ਸਮਝਾਵੈ ਕੋਊ ॥੩॥
Raviḏās sam ḏal samjẖāvai ko▫ū. ||3||
O Ravi Daas, one who understands that the Lord is equally in all, is very rare. ||3||

Page 20, Line 8
ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥
Gẖat gẖat joṯ niranṯrī būjẖai gurmaṯ sār. ||4||
One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||

Page 96, Line 9
ਏਕੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਮਾਟੀ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈਆ ॥
Ėko pavaṇ mātī sabẖ ekā sabẖ ekā joṯ sabā▫ī▫ā.
There is only one breath; all are made of the same clay; the light within all is the same.

Page 1323, Line 10
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈ ਤਤੁ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਕਾਢਿ ਲਈਜੈ ॥੧॥
Rām nām hai joṯ sabā▫ī ṯaṯ gurmaṯ kādẖ la▫ījai. ||1||
In just the same way, the Lord's Name is the Light within all; the Essence is extracted by following the Guru's Teachings. ||1||

** So Gurbani tells us that every human is made of the same clay, and all contain the same divine light within equally. It also states that one who understands this is rare (no doubt, just look at this thread!).

So what does Gurbani say specifically about excluding people:

Page 349, Line 13
ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਨ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਤੀ ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Jāṇhu joṯ na pūcẖẖahu jāṯī āgai jāṯ na he. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause||

Page 67, Line 13
ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਬੇਤੇ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਗਵਾਈ ॥
Barahm ke beṯe sabaḏ pacẖẖāṇėh ha▫umai jāṯ gavā▫ī.
Those who know God and recognize His Shabad lose their ego and class consciousness.

Page 142, Line 15
ਜਾਤੀ ਦੈ ਕਿਆ ਹਥਿ ਸਚੁ ਪਰਖੀਐ ॥
Jāṯī ḏai ki▫ā hath sacẖ parkẖī▫ai.
What good is social class and status? Truthfulness is measured within.

** When people are being restricted from participation in seva (or anything) based on gender, then that is applying a status to gender; a social hierarchy with women beneath men. Yet Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our only Guru warns against this! Further, it’s telling us that those who truly know God, lose their Ego and class consciousness. They no longer think in terms of ‘Me vs You” or “Men vs Women” as ALL are seen as ONE. They recognize that same divine light of God in everyone equally, and that there are no classes or status in God’s eyes.

So what specifically does it say about the female gender?

One of the reasons given to restrict women has to do with the fact that that men see women as unclean or impure because of certain biological functions. Let’s see what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has to say on this subject:

ਜਿਉ ਜੋਰੂ ਸਿਰਨਾਵਣੀ ਆਵੈ ਵਾਰੋ ਵਾਰ ॥

Ji▫o jorū sirnāvaṇī āvai vāro vār.

As a woman has her periods, month after month,

ਜੂਠੇ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥

Jūṯẖe jūṯẖā mukẖ vasai niṯ niṯ ho▫e kẖu▫ār.

so does falsehood dwell in the mouth of the false; they suffer forever, again and again.

ਸੂਚੇ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਜਿ ਪਿੰਡਾ ਧੋਇ ॥

Sūcẖe ehi na ākẖī▫ahi bahan jė pindā ḏẖo▫e.

They are not called pure, who sit down after merely washing their bodies.

ਸੂਚੇ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥

Sūcẖe se▫ī nānkā jin man vasi▫ā so▫e. ||2||

Only they are pure, O Nanak, within whose minds the Lord abides. ||2||

*** So we are told that pureness is not dependent upon any physical factors at all. Someone can be false and yet wash their physical body, but they will not be pure. Similarly, women experiencing a normal biological function are not considered impure if within their mind the Lord abides… in fact it’s outright telling us that is the only requisite to determine if someone is ‘pure’.

So what does it say about the human physical body in general?

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥

Bẖa▫ī parāpaṯ mānukẖ ḏehurī▫ā.

This human body has been given to you.

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥

Gobinḏ milaṇ kī ih ṯerī barī▫ā.

This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.

** Notice it doesn’t say this to only men. Women have equal chance to meet God in this lifetime, (and without dependence on men to do so) as we have already seen that all humans possess the same divine light equally. Therefore both genders have the chance to surpass this physical reality equally. To put women in a position where their spiritual advancement is entirely dependent on the male gender (as Sikhs we are all to strive for taking Amrit), this does not reflect Guru Ji’s teachings at all!

Page 219, Line 6
ਝੂਠਾ ਤਨੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨਿਓ ਜਿਉ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਰੈਨਾਈ ॥੧॥
Jẖūṯẖā ṯan sācẖā kar māni▫o ji▫o supnā rainā▫ī. ||1||
The body is false, but they believe it to be true; it is like a dream in the night. ||1||

Page 760, Line 13
ਕਾਚੀ ਦੇਹਾ ਵਿਣਸਣੀ ਕੂੜੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਧੰਧੁ ਜੀਉ ॥
Kācẖī ḏehā viṇsaṇī kūṛ kamāvai ḏẖanḏẖ jī▫o.
His body is false and transitory; it shall perish. And still, he entangles himself in false pursuits.

Page 1354, Line 2
ਮਿਥ੍ਯ੍ਯੰਤ ਦੇਹੰ ਖੀਣੰਤ ਬਲਨੰ ॥
Mith▫yanṯ ḏehaʼn kẖīṇanṯ balanaʼn.
The body is false; its power is temporary.

Page 1186, Line 7,8

ਸਾਧੋ ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਜਾਨਉ ॥

Sāḏẖo ih ṯan mithi▫ā jān▫o.

O Holy Saints, know that this body is false.

ਯਾ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਜੋ ਰਾਮੁ ਬਸਤੁ ਹੈ ਸਾਚੋ ਤਾਹਿ ਪਛਾਨੋ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Yā bẖīṯar jo rām basaṯ hai sācẖo ṯāhi pacẖẖāno. ||1|| rahā▫o.

The Lord who dwells within it - recognize that He alone is real. ||1||Pause||

*** Knowing the body to be false (both male and female), and only the Lord that dwells with it as real, how can any human be excluded in any sort of hierarchy? How can we exclude or deny the Lord, our Creator in any form, from full participation?

And what of the physical world in general?

Gurbani tells us that this reality is an illusion (including the physical body) in which we are deluded by egotism:

Page 536, Line 13
ਮ੍ਰਿਗ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਜਿਉ ਜਗ ਰਚਨਾ ਯਹ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ॥
Marig ṯarisnā ji▫o jag racẖnā yėh ḏekẖhu riḏai bicẖār.
The created world is like an illusion, a mirage - see this, and reflect upon it in your mind.

Page 581, Line 15
ਜਿਉ ਬਾਜੀਗਰੁ ਭਰਮੈ ਭੂਲੈ ਝੂਠਿ ਮੁਠੀ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੋ ॥
Ji▫o bājīgar bẖarmai bẖūlai jẖūṯẖ muṯẖī ahankāro.
Like the juggler, deceiving by his tricks, one is deluded by egotism, falsehood and illusion.

Page 812, Line 11
ਮਤ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਜਨ ਮਾਇਆ ਭਰਮਾਇਆ ॥
Maṯ bẖūlahu mānukẖ jan mā▫i▫ā bẖarmā▫i▫ā.
Don't be fooled, O mortal being, by the illusion of Maya.

** Perhaps the best instruction given to us on this subject:

Page 924, Line 9
ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦਿ ਮਾਤਾ ਹੋਛੀ ਬਾਤਾ ਮਿਲਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਭਰਮ ਧੜਾ ॥
Mā▫i▫ā maḏ māṯā hocẖẖī bāṯā milaṇ na jā▫ī bẖaram ḏẖaṛā.
Intoxicated with the wine of Maya, the mortal babbles on about trivial affairs; giving in to the illusion, he cannot meet the Lord.

*** So we are told that the illusion of Maya breeds EGO and that separates us from the ONE Lord through duality. EGOtism causes us to babble on about trivial affairs (such as who can be Panj Pyare), and separate humans into classes and status in a hierarchy. EGO causes us to think in terms of I AM vs YOU ARE – or HE IS vs SHE IS. But this hierarchy is a false precept of the illusion; One that we are told over and over to surpass.

Is it really OUR privilege as men to decide whether or not women have less status than us, when we really do not know what was intended? Is it really up to us as mere (male) humans to decide on behalf of our Creator, what was intended for our Mothers, sisters and daughters, who also contain that same divine light of Waheguru Ji equally, as stated in SGGSJ? Or is it just our EGO speaking to our desires to be better than someone else?

Definition of EGO:

The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.

Definition of EGOTISM:
Egotism is the drive to maintain and enhance favorable views of oneself, and generally features an inflated opinion of one's personal features and importance. It often includes intellectual, physical, social and other over estimations.

Let’s look specifically at what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says on the matter of EGO:

Page 1044, Line 2
ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਪਾਈ ॥
Ha▫umai mā▫i▫ā vicẖe pā▫ī.
Egotism was instilled into the illusion of Maya.

Page 1, Line 10
ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
Nānak hukmai je bujẖai ṯa ha▫umai kahai na ko▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. ||2||

Page 19, Line 9
ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਮੋਹਣੀ ਸਭ ਮੁਠੀ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Ha▫umai mamṯā mohṇī sabẖ muṯẖī ahaʼnkār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Egotism and possessiveness are very enticing; egotistical pride has plundered everyone. ||1||Pause||

Page 31, Line 4
ਇਹੁ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਪੁਤਲਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੁਸਟੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
Ih sarīr mā▫i▫ā kā puṯlā vicẖ ha▫umai ḏustī pā▫ī.
This body is the puppet of Maya. The evil of egotism is within it.

*** So we are again told that this body is a puppet of Maya, which contains egotism. And that egotism causes false constructs in society of social class and statuses, of hierarchies (including gender hierarchy) in which we rank ourselves against others. But we are told this is not the path to God. One who understands his command (hukam) does not speak in ego.

*** If most of us do not even understand ego vs our true nature, then how can we spout off our beliefs as being true or what Guru Ji intended?

ਜਾ ਹਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਤਾ ਕਿਆ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਹੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਵਾ ॥

जा हउ नाही ता किआ आखा किहु नाही किआ होवा ॥

Jā ha▫o nāhī ṯā ki▫ā ākẖā kihu nāhī ki▫ā hovā.

Since I am no one, what can I say? Since I am nothing, what can I be?

ਕੀਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਕਥਨਾ ਭਰਿਆ ਭਰਿ ਭਰਿ ਧੋਵਾਂ ॥

कीता करणा कहिआ कथना भरिआ भरि भरि धोवां ॥

Kīṯā karṇā kahi▫ā kathnā bẖari▫ā bẖar bẖar ḏẖovāʼn.

As He created me, so I act. As He causes me to speak, so I speak. I am full and overflowing with sins-if only I could wash them away!

ਆਪਿ ਨ ਬੁਝਾ ਲੋਕ ਬੁਝਾਈ ਐਸਾ ਆਗੂ ਹੋਵਾਂ ॥

आपि न बुझा लोक बुझाई ऐसा आगू होवां ॥

Āp na bujẖā lok bujẖā▫ī aisā āgū hovāʼn.

I do not understand myself, and yet I try to teach others. Such is the guide I am!

ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧਾ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਦਸੇ ਰਾਹੈ ਸਭਸੁ ਮੁਹਾਏ ਸਾਥੈ ॥

नानक अंधा होइ कै दसे राहै सभसु मुहाए साथै ॥

Nānak anḏẖā ho▫e kai ḏase rāhai sabẖas muhā▫e sāthai.

O Nanak, the one who is blind shows others the way, and misleads all his companions.

ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਮੁਹੇ ਮੁਹਿ ਪਾਹਿ ਸੁ ਐਸਾ ਆਗੂ ਜਾਪੈ ॥੨॥

अगै गइआ मुहे मुहि पाहि सु ऐसा आगू जापै ॥२॥

Agai ga▫i▫ā muhe muhi pāhi so aisā āgū jāpai. ||2||

But, going to the world hereafter, he shall be beaten and kicked in the face; then, it will be obvious, what sort of guide he was! ||2||

*** So in the end do we make our choices based on what Gurbani teaches about equality, inclusiveness, the divine light within all, or do we base our choices on ego and pride, and our desire to better than someone else?

Consider this, if we make our choice based on equality, inclusiveness, and all humans as ONE, would Waheguru Ji really be angry with us, even if we erred?

However, if we make our choice based on our own desires to be superior to someone else, or to exclude because we think we are more entitled than others, in the face of Gurbani telling us that we humans are ALL absolute equals, and it is the same divine light in everyone… if we are wrong in this case, how do you think Waheguru Ji will react? Would our Creator think our hearts and intentions were in the right place? The answer is of course not!!

Our intentions are far more important than our actions.

Page 171, Line 3
ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਤਿਨ ਕੂਰੇ ਗਾਢਨ ਗਾਢੇ ॥
Jin ka▫o parīṯ riḏai har nāhī ṯin kūre gādẖan gādẖe.
Those who do not have love for the Lord within their hearts, harbor only false intentions and goals.

*** Only those who remove ego, treat everyone as equal, and recognize the Lord equally within every heart can possibly harbor true intentions. This is what we are instructed through Gurbani.

So please fellow Singhs, consider all of this and act from your heart and not your ego.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[savinderpalsingh]

penji no i am not branwashed ,

and i full heartidly agree with guru sahib , however rehat is rehat

wont change my opinion on it

i never said females dont attain freedom from life cycles

and i am in no way discriminating against females.

there have been many bhramgiani females in sikhism , all heed to rehat never opposed it

but as my guru says

rehat pyaari mujko sikh pyaara nahi

i heed to it . i dont need many answers from guru granth sahib to clarify it .

and by rehat i dont mean the ones constructed by sgpc ,

[CdnSikhGirl]

if women were at that time in panj pyaare, we would have no objection

Is it really male privelege to object?

Again, Amrit is not a mere reenactment of the first, or else the castes that were absent would also be barred. This reasoning is only based on "Well, the first was this so then for all time it has to be this eaactly..." but low and behold... its not exact! Bits have been picked and choosen over other bits. As in, all castes can participate even though several castes did not volunteer their heads that day. Nobody contests it. Nobody says that because a shoemaker did not volunteer that day to give their head, that no shoe makers can ever be Panj Pyare. Also same for colur, etc. So it's not an exact reenactment is it? Its only gender that is being excluded. And its only human (males) who are doing the objecting and trying to say that's what Guru Ji intended, even in light of Gurbani, and even in light of Guru Ji's 52 hukams and silence on the issue of gender.

It really sounds to me like you have a complex.

penji no i am not branwashed ,

and i full heartidly agree with guru sahib , however rehat is rehat

wont change my opinion on it

i never said females dont attain freedom from life cycles

and i am in no way discriminating against females.

there have been many bhramgiani females in sikhism , all heed to rehat never opposed it

but as my guru says

rehat pyaari mujko sikh pyaara nahi

i heed to it . i dont need many answers from guru granth sahib to clarify it .

and by rehat i dont mean the ones constructed by sgpc ,

Well at least agree that since different Sikhs will arrive at different conclusions, there will always be different Rehet Maryadas... So you are free to follow one, but don't push it down others throats. The end fact is that those who oppose women can hang with DDT, while those who believe in true equality can follow SGPC SRM. Easy... in the end I am confident my choices of equality and same divine light in all, will win over egotistical mindset in Guru Ji's eyes.

Quoted from my friend Dr. Kirpal Singh

"SGGSJ is the highest authority we can look to for guidance, (This was stated by Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself.) How can you even suggest that RMs which differ between different Jathas, can be higher than Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? RMs are made by humans, while we are supposed to treat SGGSJ as our ONLY and living Guru!

In fact, the rehet maryada anyone should follow is the one passed to them by the panj pyare at the time they take Amrit. Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave this authority to the Panj Pyare himself. So in that light, what happened at the very first no longer holds anyway! The authority was given to the Panj themselevs!!! So for those Panj Pyare who follow SGPC SRM, any Sikhs who receive Amrit from them, are BOUND by THAT RM. End of story. Their authority on the matter comes from Guru Ji himself and is divinely ordained."

Edited August 25, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[savinderpalsingh]

sorry i wont believe anything that stupid sgpc does , end of story

jarnail singh ji himself said

the people or women who have shradha dont question rehat

its that simple rehat was not made so that you go and look for answer from guru sahib

those people who question rehat have no love for guru and are nastik .

anyone who loves doesnt question.

jarnail singh ji himself said in that video

Edited August 25, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[CdnSikhGirl]

sorry i wont believe anything that stupid sgpc does , end of story

And you are free to follow whatever version of Sikhi if you wish... that's your right as a human being. But don't try to say that others can not do the same.

And if you are not yet married... good luck finding a girl who will ever be happy always playing second fiddle to you.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[savinderpalsingh]

And you are free to follow whatever version of Sikhi if you wish... that's your right as a human being. But don't try to say that others can not do the same.

And if you are not yet married... good luck finding a girl who will ever be happy always playing second fiddle to you.

its upto akal purakh and how my singhnie will be .

people see golden temple and sgpc as panth lol

while leaving huge amount of other sects and takhats .

who dont even believe in sgpc.

no one does after what they are doing now

[chatanga1]

And its only human (males) who are doing the objecting and trying to say that's what Guru Ji intended,...

Bhenji, it has been pointed out to you several times, that after the passing of the 10th Guru, the 2 remaining wives of Guru Sahib, played a frontal role in the Panth, upto the point of issuing Hukamnamas. But yet in the 20 odd years they remained alive after Guru Ji, why was there not 1 sinchar done involving females?

So you see, males are not the only ones "objecting" so please don't write this again.

It really sounds to me like you have a complex.

He may have, but what do you have ? The same argument in light of reasoned response.

Well at least agree that since different Sikhs will arrive at different conclusions, there will always be different Rehet Maryadas... So you are free to follow one, but don't push it down others throats.

Exactly, if the SRM maryada states that women can be part of it, I am not going to argue with it. Same as I don't want anyone arguing with me, because I am not a vegetarian.

In the same vein, I would politely ask that you don't write/say anything again ever about keski being a kakkar, as this is against Panth Parwaan SRM, unless of course someone tries to state it is. Then you will be in a position to correct them.

I don' t think Savinderpal, or yourself are going to change your minds, and you are both going round in circles.

The end fact is that those who oppose women can hang with DDT,...

Now you are being deliberately offensive.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Now you are being deliberately offensive.

Only in response to his deliberate offensiveness... and for that I apologize. I should be better than that.

And I never said I agree with keski being kakkar? Just that I can see their point of view... but there is nothing written supporting it, so I don't personally say it is a kakkar.

My personal belief on dastar being for both male / female doesn't stem from AKJ. Why I tie a dastaar: It's from SGGSJ where it states to let your total awareness be the turban on your head. It is not directed at men only... so I follow Gurbani on that in my decision to tie dastar. Please don't tell me that you disagree with Singhnis tying dastaars too? And also that Khalsa are supposed to be in Guru Gobind Singh Ji's roop... turban was part of that. So that's why I tie one and its a personal choice.

As for your eating meat, I am vegetarian, but not vegan. I eat dairy and eggs. I do not consider eggs to be killing something since over here, they are never fertilized, so in that sense they are a product of animals but not an animal... some would say that I am doing wrong by eating eggs. So I also respect your decision to eat meat, especially as long as it's not killed ritualistically (Mulsim way and by extension also kosher Jewish) as per SRM. My being vegetarian is also a personal choice.

[osingh1]

Bhenji satkirin kaur jee, waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!

I have read some of this thread and the views i have read are what i expect for this forum which is generally anti-akj.

You have raised some good points and it is great that you are defending the right for women to wear keski and the rehat of akj in general. However i am very surprised that you say that you are vegetarian but you also eat eggs. Eggs are definitely not vegetarian, fertilized or un-fertilized, I would strongly advise you to give up eating eggs so that you do not compromise your Gurmat rehat.

I do not know if you have taken amrit, but if you take from akj organised amrit sanchaar then they will definitely forbid meat/fish and eggs. Gursikhs abstain from eating maas and eggs but do consume products dairy products such as milk and yoghurt. If you have any more queries please ask the panj piare in amrit sanchaar.

Since you are interested in akj rehat then i would advise to read posts on forums such as gurmatbibek.com and tapoban.org.

As for ddt view here is a video and in the first few seconds the singh advises against meat and eggs:

Here is another video of bhai hari singh randhawa of ddt defending the anti-meat stance of Gursikhs against missionary sikhs:

Bhul chuck maaf jee.

Edited August 26, 2014 by osingh1

[chatanga1]

Eggs are definitely not vegetarian, fertilized or un-fertilized, I would strongly advise you to give up eating eggs so that you do not compromise your Gurmat rehat.

As for ddt view here is a video and in the first few seconds the singh advises against meat and eggs:

The SRM maryada does not uphold either view as binding on the Panth. If one wishes to follow the SRM then they should with honest intention, and as yourself who follows the akj rehat, so should you with honest intention follow that. To pick and choose at SRM and try to force it on the panth is wrong.

Eating eggs only compromises rehat in your view. Its very arrogant to strongly advise giving up eggs.

[hsingh135798642]

I personally do not eat any kind of meat or eggs..

. ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥

Kabeer Bhang Mashhulee Sura Pan Jo Jo Pranee Khanhi ||

कबीर भांग माछुली सुरा पानि जो जो प्रानी खांहि ॥

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine

1 ਅਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਗੁਟਕਾ: ਪੰਨਾ ੬੫੭ ਪੰ. ੧
Salok Bhagat Kabir Page:657 Line: 1

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ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥

Theerathh Barath Naem Keeeae Thae Sabhai Rasathal Janhi ||233||

तीरथ बरत नेम कीए ते सभै रसातलि जांहि ॥२३३॥

- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

But that doesn't mean I look down upon Sikhs who do.... I think its fine as long as they eat the meat according to Maryada... (Jhatka)

I do NOT agree with those that go to McDonalds and consume hamburgers and stuff like that.

But going back to the subject at hand....

The above posters bring up a very important point. If it wasn't against Maryada for woman to be Panj Pyare then why didn't the remaining 2 Wives of Guru Ji Take part?

[hsingh135798642]

Also SatkirinJi I am still wondering what you think of the Jathedars of DDT... Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, Sant Kartar Singh Ji. Because you have claimed that DDT as a whole are sexist. So what do you think of them? "The end fact is that those who oppose women can hang with DDT,.."

[hsingh135798642]

I personally do not eat any kind of meat or eggs..

. ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥

Kabeer Bhang Mashhulee Sura Pan Jo Jo Pranee Khanhi ||

कबीर भांग माछुली सुरा पानि जो जो प्रानी खांहि ॥

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine

1 ਅਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਗੁਟਕਾ: ਪੰਨਾ ੬੫੭ ਪੰ. ੧

Salok Bhagat Kabir Page:657 Line: 1

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ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥

Theerathh Barath Naem Keeeae Thae Sabhai Rasathal Janhi ||233||

तीरथ बरत नेम कीए ते सभै रसातलि जांहि ॥२३३॥

- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

But that doesn't mean I look down upon Sikhs who do.... I think its fine as long as they eat the meat according to Maryada... (Jhatka)

I do NOT agree with those that go to McDonalds and consume hamburgers and stuff like that.

But going back to the subject at hand....

The above posters bring up a very important point. If it wasn't against Maryada for woman to be Panj Pyare then why didn't the remaining 2 Wives of Guru Ji Take part?

To be clear the above about meat and eggs is my personal opinion not asking anyone to follow me...

[CdnSikhGirl]

hsingh ji, those same members on here who have posted that the rehet maryada of damdami taksal is THE infallible rehet maryada directly from Guru Gobind Singh Ji, I have posted a very interesting post on it here:

The fact is, Damdami Taksal view women as subordinate to men, and beneath them... period. It's blatently obvious when you actually read the Gurmat Rehet maryada. I was giving some the benefit of the doubt before...

It's not only Panj Pyare seva that women are restricted from. It's nearly ALL seva - no matter what some earlier in this thread have said about women being treated equally aside from Panj Pyare seva - My information came from Damdami Taksal's own website, and their own copy of the Gurmat Rehet Maryada.

It is DDT who oppose women not only as Panj Pyare, but also as Granthi, Paathis, Ragees, nearly all seva. The rehet maryada several members on here try to say is THE maryada of Guru Ji himself, instructs women to see their husband as God, while the husband is instructed to see his wife as a faithful 'follower' (subordinate).

The reasoning has nothing to do with the original five... it has to do with twisting of Gurbani as I clearly show in the other post.

...and I started out reading GRM as a means to become more educated on it. After reading it I am only angry.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[hsingh135798642]

Lol Still wondering what you think of the Jathedars of DDT...?


As far as woman are restricted in DDT... Sant Ji made it clear in the video in the OP that women should not be restricted in any other seva.

[CdnSikhGirl]

I think he gave his life for Sikhi for that I respect him but I don't have to agree with everything he says, as other Sants and him disagree on points so it makes them still human.

Please read my other post

Edited August 26, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur