Shastarvidiya.Org'S Sanatan Bull*&@!

[Kaljug]

Fateh!

It looks like this website is headed in the direction of the RSS version of Sikhi. It is a pity, because I actually enjoyed some of the content on the website.

Here Akal is described as any Sikh would underestand the word as a reference to Waheguru:

http://shastarvidiya.org/ideology6.jsp

On another part of the website Akal is regarded as a form of Shiva:

http://shastarvidiya.org/history14.jsp

If you point your mouse on the underlined word Braham Kavach it says "the Akali Nihangs .. see themselves as descendants of the ancient Indian Kshatriyas". The Kshatriyas were a Hindu Brahmin creation to defend their hegemony over other Indians.

Looking at earlier versions of the website on archive.org, there seems to be a definite change from orthodox Nihang views and RSS-inspired myths about "Hindu Sikhs".

What do you think of this? Can any of his students here conform that the whole site is authored by Niddar Singh? If so, what's with the contradictory messages? Some of the later updates seem like they were authored by our very own navjot.

By the way, this is nowt to do with Niddar Singh's shastar vidiya as martial art, this is about the views represented on his website.

K.

[Guest]

There used to be someone on this forum, who actually saved all the previous versions of shastarvidya website. I don't know his name. If some one have saved previous version of shastarvidya, it can be used to show comparison this change in thoughts.

[Ishraqi]

Kaljug wrote:

The Kshatriyas were a Hindu Brahmin creation to defend their hegemony over other Indians.

I thank God for having made you stupid. That's probably one of the most blatant lies I have ever heard. WOW. Ever heard of tri-functional Indo-European societies? Read George Dumézil and Max Weber. admin cut

[Kaljug]

I thank God for having made you stupid. That's probably one of the most blatant lies I have ever heard. WOW. Ever heard of tri-functional Indo-European societies? Read George Dumézil and Max Weber. admin cut

No, a blatant lie would be that some abused Arab chick who could not even defend herself from her hubby's slaps was the queen of heaven.

Go eat some dates. Looks like ramadan is not doing much for your temperament.

Edited: to placate the whining Muslims

K.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Kaljug

[Guest]

Guys, please stick to the topic. Otherwise I have no other choice to lock this thread until things ie- personal attacks/name calling cool off.

[Kaljug]

There used to be someone on this forum, who actually saved all the previous versions of shastarvidya website. I don't know his name. If some one have saved previous version of shastarvidya, it can be used to show comparison this change in thoughts.

Fateh!

You can see most of them yourself on archive.org. Just type in the webpage in the search box.

It seems to me that the author of the site is making up his history as he reads more about Indian martial systems, and the continual advancement to RSS theories is becoming more and more apparent as newer versions of the website are created. It would be interesting to know if this move away from Nihang tradition to Hindutva ideology was plannned from the outset or if it is just coincidence.

Edited: for the sake of our weak-stomached friends here

K.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Kaljug

[tonyhp32]

My view is that the transistion towards the RSS view of history was planned from the start. If the aim was to just put forward the Buddha Dal views then it is not difficult to stick to them. The aim had been to hoodwink impressionable youth with the photos of Nihangs and their 'warrior' lifestyle and then to gradually brainwash them with RSS bukwas. Could it be that all those people who were on this forum from when it first started in 2003 were right in their warnings about the shastarvidya website being RSS inspired?

[Matheen]

The worst thing about it is how easily his students fall for that bs. I once pointed out that the Buddha Dal Jathedars have very different views, and got the reply " I don't give a §£$% about what Baba Surjit Singh thinks..."

The Sarbloh site is even worse.

About the Kshatriya thing - I think it comes from a misinterpretation of " Shatri Ko Puth Hon, Bahman Ko Nahi".

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

How much more disgusting can Kaljug become? His responses make me feel physically sick, and other SIkhs turn a blind eye to what he writes. It is sickening. With people like him in Sikhi , it won;t be long before the outer form of SIkhi is destroyed. It won;t be long before he himself is destroyed you cannot have this attitude in spiritual matters you will be destroyed.

[shaheediyan]

"If you point your mouse on the underlined word Braham Kavach it says "the Akali Nihangs .. see themselves as descendants of the ancient Indian Kshatriyas". The Kshatriyas were a Hindu Brahmin creation to defend their hegemony over other Indians"

So what about Guru Gobind Singh Maharajs being descended from Sri Ramchandra and Sri Krishan Ji – both Suryavanshi Kshatris?

In my view – this lineage relates to the continuation of Dharm Yudh/Spirituality rather than blood line – this doe not make Sikhi subservient to any other school – it still remains nyaara and the most pure message from Parbrahm, but there is no denying that Sat principles existed with these previous avatars.

Kalyug, I have spoken to Nihangs in india who openly claim Kshatriya lineage via 10th Master and his writings – there is also a mention of this lineage in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib.

You need to stop focusing on the wallpaper and see what lies beneath – as with everything else Muslim or Hindu – that Guru Sahiban have used, they have used the correct/pure/original meanings of concepts long lost (but which once existed). Kshatryiya (outside of Muni Simritis) were Kings and Warriors both – is Khalsa not the same? Is Khalsa not also the true Brahman... (knower of Brahm)?

I have read old articles on Nihangs over 100 years old where Nihangs have openly stated they are Suryavanshi Khalsa – we shouldn’t always throw the baby out with the bath water.

I am not defending the website, but certainly, some aspects of it are representative. The problem is when silly fanatical youth go to India and present a version of events/details that they have interpreted using their new school knowledge and hate to Dal Panth – Dal Panth is only going to comment on the evidence presented in front of them...

The Suryavanshi that Khalsa belongs to is whole world apart from that of the India social system – it is a Kshatriya that Sudrai joined in Hundred and thousands if not millions – it is Vahegurus Kshatriya.

[Kaljug]

Fateh!

"If you point your mouse on the underlined word Braham Kavach it says "the Akali Nihangs .. see themselves as descendants of the ancient Indian Kshatriyas". The Kshatriyas were a Hindu Brahmin creation to defend their hegemony over other Indians"

So what about Guru Gobind Singh Maharajs being descended from Sri Ramchandra and Sri Krishan Ji – both Suryavanshi Kshatris?

In my view – this lineage relates to the continuation of Dharm Yudh/Spirituality rather than blood line – this doe not make Sikhi subservient to any other school – it still remains nyaara and the most pure message from Parbrahm, but there is no denying that Sat principles existed with these previous avatars.

Kalyug, I have spoken to Nihangs in india who openly claim Kshatriya lineage via 10th Master and his writings – there is also a mention of this lineage in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib.

Shatri Dharam as described in Sarbloh Granth and Dasam Granth is miles apart from what the author of the website is describing. Like Matheen veer ji says above, and you are saying here, Kshatriya as meant in Sikhi is a ruler and king in the spiritual sense and in the sense of martial valour.

However, the website hardly makes this use of the word clear. To my reading it seems the author is espousing the RSS view that Sikhs were created to protect Hindus (whereas the Kshatriya caste did this in the past. For example, even Guru Nanak Dev Ji is described as descending to earth to protect the Hindus. Guru Nanak Dev Ji manifested because he is pooran Guru avatar of Waheguru and because the whole of humanity was suffering, not just the members of a particular religion.

You need to stop focusing on the wallpaper and see what lies beneath – as with everything else Muslim or Hindu – that Guru Sahiban have used, they have used the correct/pure/original meanings of concepts long lost (but which once existed). Kshatryiya (outside of Muni Simritis) were Kings and Warriors both – is Khalsa not the same? Is Khalsa not also the true Brahman... (knower of Brahm)?

I have read old articles on Nihangs over 100 years old where Nihangs have openly stated they are Suryavanshi Khalsa – we shouldn’t always throw the baby out with the bath water.

The Suryavanshi that Khalsa belongs to is whole world apart from that of the India social system – it is a Kshatriya that Sudrai joined in Hundred and thousands if not millions – it is Vahegurus Kshatriya.

I understand what you are saying and agree completely by the way.

I am not defending the website, but certainly, some aspects of it are representative. The problem is when silly fanatical youth go to India and present a version of events/details that they have interpreted using their new school knowledge and hate to Dal Panth – Dal Panth is only going to comment on the evidence presented in front of them...

What do you think of his views of the connection between Nihangs and Shiva? Or his identification of Mahakaal as used in Dasam Granth with Shiva, and his belief that Akal is identical to Shiva?

Regards,

K.

[Kaljug]

How much more disgusting can Kaljug become? His responses make me feel physically sick, and other SIkhs turn a blind eye to what he writes. It is sickening. With people like him in Sikhi , it won;t be long before the outer form of SIkhi is destroyed. It won;t be long before he himself is destroyed you cannot have this attitude in spiritual matters you will be destroyed.

Great!

Now I'm going to go to hell and be destroyed, and all because one Muslim and a closet Muslim says so.

Thank God I don't believe in your peculiar religious nonsense.

K.

[Guest caveman]

What do you think of this? Can any of his students here conform that the whole site is authored by Niddar Singh? If so, what's with the contradictory messages? Some of the later updates seem like they were authored by our very own navjot.

This website is privately created, funded, and maintained by Nihang Teja Singh. speak to the webmaster about it.

who is ''navjot''????

guidance

[singh2]

This website is privately created, funded, and maintained by Nihang Teja Singh. speak to the webmaster about it.

who is ''navjot''????

guidance

But it gives flawed version of sikhism.Whosoever has created it he is quoting bani of dasam granth out of context.It is misrepresentation.

He quotes from Brahma avtar a verse saying Guru gobind singh said it. That verse is " Devo bach" means demigod speech and not Guru gobind singh's speech.What business he has to pick verses at random and quote our of context. That is distortion of sikhism. may we know why?

below is speech of Guru sahib in Brahma avtar and leaves no doubt of status of these demigods in a sikh's mind.

ਜੇ ਜੀਵ ਜੰਤ ਅਨੇਕ ॥ ਤਿਹ ਮੋ ਰਹੇ ਰਮ ਏਕ ॥ ਬਿਨ ਏਕ ਦੂਸਰ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ ਜਗ ਜਾਨ ਲੈ ਜੀਅ ਮਾਹਿ ॥੭॥

जे जीव जंत अनेक ॥ तिह मो रहे रम एक ॥ बिन एक दूसर नाहि ॥ जग जान लै जीअ माहि ॥७॥

That One Lord is pervading all the created beings and the whole world should know that there is none else except Him.7.

ਭਵ ਗੜਨ ਭੰਜਨ ਹਾਰ ॥ ਹੈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕਰਤਾਰ ॥ ਬਿਨ ਏਕ ਅਉਰ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਸਭ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗੀ ਸੋਇ ॥੮॥

भव गड़न भंजन हार ॥ है एक ही करतार ॥ बिन एक अउर न कोइ ॥ सभ रूप रंगी सोइ ॥८॥

The One Lord is the creator as well as the Destroyer of the whole world and there is one other in all the colours and forms.8.

ਕਈ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪਾਨ ਪਹਾਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੇਦ ਉਚਾਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਬੈਠ ਦੁਆਰ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ॥ ਕਈ ਸ਼ੇਸ਼ਨਾਗ ਅਸੇਸ ॥੯॥

कई इंद्र पान पहार ॥ कई ब्रहम बेद उचार ॥ कई बैठ दुआर महेश ॥ कई शेशनाग असेस ॥९॥

Many indras are in His service, many Brahmas recite the Vedas, many Shivas sit at His Gate and many Sheshnagas remain present in order to become His bed.9.

ਕਈ ਸੂਰ ਚੰਦ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ ਕਈ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਕੀ ਸਮ ਭੂਪ ॥ ਕਈ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਉਪਿੰਦ੍ਰ ਮੁਨਿੰਦ੍ਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਮੱਛ ਕੱਛ ਫਨਿੰਦ੍ਰ ॥੧੦॥

कई सूर चंद सरूप ॥ कई इंद्र की सम भूप ॥ कई इंद्र उपिंद्र मुनिंद्र ॥ कई म्छ क्छ फनिंद्र ॥१०॥

Many kings like Surya, Chandra and Indra and many Indras, upendras, great sages, the Fish incarnation, the Tortoise incarnation and sheshnagas remain ever present before Him.10.

ਕਈ ਕੋਟ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਰਾਮ ਬਾਰ ਬੁਹਾਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਮੱਛ ਕੱਛ ਅਨੇਕ ॥ ਅਵਲੋਕ ਦੁਆਰ ਬਿਸੇਖ ॥੧੧॥

कई कोट क्रिशन अवतार ॥ कई राम बार बुहार ॥ कई म्छ क्छ अनेक ॥ अवलोक दुआर बिसेख ॥११॥

Many Krishna and Rama incarnation sweep His Door many Fish and Tortoise incarnations are seen standing at His special gate.11.

ਕਈ ਸ਼ੁਕ੍ਰ ਬ੍ਰਸਪਤ ਦੇਖ ॥ ਕਈ ਦੱਤ ਗੋਰਖ ਭੇਖ ॥ ਕਈ ਰਾਮ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਰਸੂਲ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਮ ਕੋ ਨ ਕਬੂਲ ॥੧੨॥

कई शुक्र ब्रसपत देख ॥ कई द्त गोरख भेख ॥ कई राम क्रिशन रसूल ॥ बिनु नाम को न कबूल ॥१२॥

There are many Shukras, Brahaspatis, Datts, Gorakhs, Rama Krishnas, Rasult ect, but none is acceptable at His gate wightout the remembrance of His Name.12.

ਬਿਨੁ ਏਕ ਆਸ੍ਰੈ ਨਾਮ ॥ ਨਹੀ ਔਰ ਕੌਨੈ ਕਾਮ ॥ ਜੇ ਮਾਨ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ॥ਤੇ ਜਾਨ ਹੈ ਅਨਭੇਵ ॥੧੩॥

बिनु एक आस्रै नाम ॥ नही और कौनै काम ॥ जे मान है गुरदेव ॥ते जान है अनभेव ॥१३॥

No other work is appropriate except the support of the one Name; those who will believe in the one Guru-Lord, they will only comprehend His myself.13.

ਬਿਨ ਤਾਸ ਅਵਰ ਨ ਜਾਨ ॥ ਚਿਤ ਆਨ ਭਾਵ ਨ ਆਨ ॥ ਇਕ ਮਾਨਿਯੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ॥ ਜਿਤ ਹੋਇ ਅੰਤ ਉਧਾਰ ॥੧੪॥

बिन तास अवर न जान ॥ चित आन भाव न आन ॥ इक मानियै करतार ॥ जित होइ अंत उधार ॥१४॥

We should not know anyone else except Him and none other should be kept in mind; only one Lord should be worshipped, so that we may be redeemed at the end.14.

Brahma avtar, dasam granth

[Maha Singh]

Maybe if the above posters read the website with an open mind they would see what is trying to be said, rather then cunjure up what they think it says.

The warfare depicted within it, is mostly of the Sanatan Indian Hindu demigods, goddesses, 'Avtar' (incarnations of 'Vishnu' and 'Shiva' primarily) and 'Yodha'. These beings are seen as the devotees of 'Akal', and thus, are fully respected but not worshipped, though some times the line between this respect and worship is very fine.

For example, what may be seen as seemingly to contradict the above said quote if one did not appreciate the 'Virod Pash' nature of 'Dasam Guru Durbar', as Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh exclaims:

'One Vishnu fully focuses upon me [the Supreme Being speaking to 'Brahma'].

With great service he has pleased me.

What boon he desired. I have given such?

Between him and I is no difference.

All the world has known him as such [confused him with the Immortal Being].

He is recognized as the creator by all the worlds, netherworlds and mountains.'

(Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh, Brahma Avatar, Dasam Guru Durbar)

Edited September 8, 2009 by Maha Singh

[Kaljug]

Maybe if the above posters read the website with an open mind they would see what is trying to be said, rather then cunjure up what they think it says.

Fateh!

Perhaps if you actually read the posts above, and in particular the pages on the shastarvidiya website that are being discussed, you might see the contradictions that we are questioning.

K.

[Matheen]

Maybe if the above posters read the website with an open mind they would see what is trying to be said,

What is trying to be said?

[amardeep]

Kaljug:

Try to listen to Sant Maskeen Singh ji's katha on Gyan Khand where he talks about how people on this level can do satkar and even pooja of devi devtas because in their mind they know that they are only krit of akal purakh. It can be found online

[Kaljug]

Kaljug:

Try to listen to Sant Maskeen Singh ji's katha on Gyan Khand where he talks about how people on this level can do satkar and even pooja of devi devtas because in their mind they know that they are only krit of akal purakh. It can be found online

Fateh!

Thanks, I'll look into it, but I don't believe that Gurbani promotes worship of Devatay, whatever khand one is in. It might be fine for Hindus who need to worship God with form, but it is forbidden to Sikhs.

Do you have a link for the katha?

Regards,

K.

[singh2]

Maybe if the above posters read the website with an open mind they would see what is trying to be said, rather then cunjure up what they think it says.

All the episodes of different avtars are to be read keeping in mind the invocation of Chaubis avtar that is written by Guru sahib.It has 38 chhands and all those praise only akal purakh.There is no special treatment or status for avtars.

ਜੋ ਚਉਬੀਸ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥

जो चउबीस अवतार कहाए ॥

Those who are called twenty-four incarnations;

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤੁਮ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਨਿਕ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥

तिन भी तुम प्रभ तनिक न पाए ॥

O Lord ! they even could not realise thee in a small measure;

ਸਭ ਹੀ ਜਗ ਭਰਮੇ ਭਵ ਰਾਯੰ ॥

सभ ही जग भरमे भव रायं ॥

They became kings of the world and got deluded;

ਤਾ ਤੇ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਅੰਤ ਕਹਾਯੰ ॥੭॥

ता ते नाम बिअंत कहायं ॥७॥

Therefore they were called by innumerable names.7.

Chaubis avtar

Now the following website talks of sanatn hindu sikh shashtras. I have some questions on so called hindu shashtras.

http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

1) Mahmood Ghaznavi came all the way to Somnath temple. He beheaded idols and took valubles of the temple to Kabul. Where were these weapons and their wielders?

2) Moghals ruled over India for more than 1000 years. Where were the weapons that time when Indian women were being taken to harems of middle east.

It was creation of khalsa a saint-soldier who reined in these tyrants. It was khalsa who combined bhagti with shakti to become invincibles and blocked khyber pass.

Nihungs of India do not follow any sanatan sikhi as is being said on this website.

Edited September 9, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

Fateh!

Thanks, I'll look into it, but I don't believe that Gurbani promotes worship of Devatay, whatever khand one is in. It might be fine for Hindus who need to worship God with form, but it is forbidden to Sikhs.

Do you have a link for the katha?

Regards,

K.

No not at all. I may clarify that neither Nihungs in India glorify these demigods.This site is giving a bad image to traditional Nihungs.

[amardeep]

http://sikhsangeet.com/albumid196-Sant-Singh-Maskeen-Japji-Sahib-Veechaar.html

i recommend that you also listen to the katha of Dharam Khand. They are absolutely brilliant containing so much wisdom!

Gyan Khand is pauri 35...

Edited September 8, 2009 by amardeep

[Vicky Singh]

All the episodes of different avtars are to be read keeping in mind the invocation of Chaubis avtar that is written by Guru sahib.It has 38 chhands and all those praise only akal purakh. o special treatment for avtars.

ਜੋ ਚਉਬੀਸ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥

जो चउबीस अवतार कहाए ॥

Those who are called twenty-four incarnations;

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤੁਮ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਨਿਕ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥

तिन भी तुम प्रभ तनिक न पाए ॥

O Lord ! they even could not realise thee in a small measure;

ਸਭ ਹੀ ਜਗ ਭਰਮੇ ਭਵ ਰਾਯੰ ॥

सभ ही जग भरमे भव रायं ॥

They became kings of the world and got deluded;

ਤਾ ਤੇ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਅੰਤ ਕਹਾਯੰ ॥੭॥

ता ते नाम बिअंत कहायं ॥७॥

Therefore they were called by innumerable names.7.

Chaubis avtar

Now the following website talks of sanatn hindu sikh shashtras. I have some questions on so called hindu shashtras.

http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

1) Mahmood Ghaznavi came all the way to Somnath temple. He beheaded idols and took valubles of the temple to Kabul. Where were these weapons and their wielders?

2) Moghals ruled over India for more than 1000 years. Where were the weapons that time when Indian women were being taken to harems of middle east.

It was creation of khalsa a saint-soldier who reined in these tyrants. It was khalsa who combined bhagti with shakti to become invincibles and blocked khyber pass.

Nihungs of India do not follow any sanatan sikhi as is being said on this website.

I think it is correct.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Vicky Singh

[Kaljug]

Kaljug:

Try to listen to Sant Maskeen Singh ji's katha on Gyan Khand where he talks about how people on this level can do satkar and even pooja of devi devtas because in their mind they know that they are only krit of akal purakh. It can be found online

Fateh, veera!

Are you sure you mean Pauri 35? I just listened to the katha again, and it described how one who reaches this avastha realises that there are crore of rishis, devis, maheshes, kuberas, krishans etc, and behind each krishan is another krishan, behind which is another krishan etc etc.

At around 15 minutes in he mentions one who reaches this stage realises that the avatar for whom he has satkar and who he does does puja of, is one of many and is kirat of Kartar - the avatar does not act or create itself - and that the Creator creates many of them and send them to earth. This does not mean that a Sikh is supposed to start doing puja of particular avatars.

The katha on the previous pauri, in which Maskin ji discusses Sidh Gosht, describes what the Sikh methodology is for reaching this stage and beyond.

Thanks for being responsible for making me listen to the katha again. I'd forgotten how much knowledge there is in them.

Regards,

K.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Kaljug

[singh2]

Fateh, veera!

Are you sure you mean Pauri 35? I just listened to the katha again, and it described how one who reaches this avastha realises that there are crore of rishis, devis, maheshes, kuberas, krishans etc, and behind each krishan is another krishan, behind which is another krishan etc etc.

At around 15 minutes in he mentions one who reaches this stage realises that the avatar for whom he has satkar and who he does does puja of, is one of many and is kirat of Kartar - the avatar does not act or create itself - and that the Creator creates many of them and send them to earth. This does not mean that a Sikh is supposed to start doing puja of particular avatars.

The katha on the previous pauri, in which Maskin ji discusses Sidh Gosht, describes what the Sikh methodology is for reaching this stage and beyond.

K.

We are to focus our consciousness on shabad Guru during meditation and not on anything else.