GuptSingh1699 Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Why is there no Dasam Granth bir as prepared by Guru Ji, Bhai Mani Singh or Baba Deep Singh? Any Bir prior to 1740s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyhp32 Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 (edited) This Dasam granth debate is getting boring. An outsider would think that Sikhs have no pressing issues other than this. The authenticity or otherwise isn't going to be settled here on this forum. It's one of those issues best kept on hold until there is a panth pravanit Jathedar of Akal Takht and not the Badal chumcha we have at present. Also this thread will just give Singh2 another opportunity to sound off about Darshan Singh Ragi, Spokesman, Gurtej Singh IAS, Kala Afghana etc etc Edited March 7, 2010 by tonyhp32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuptSingh1699 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 It is a Big Issue of Sikhi. It has become like the Sunni and Shia divide of Islam. All traditional groups like DDT, AKJ, Nihangs, etc, who have difference in beliefs with each other, but believe in Dasam Granth have come togheter on one side. Missionaries, normal Sikhs are on other side. They too have differences in believes. Some of them believe Guru Sahibaan to be normal human beings (by which most Sikhs of this category disagree). Inder Singh Ghagga says 5th Guru fell unconcious on Tati Tavi, which I don't agree with. And many other issues. But there is this MAIN divide, Pro DG and Anti DG... And it is in no way good for the panth. Before I wasn't really speaking against DG but I had my doubts. Just because of that my pro DG people began pushing me n stuff. Once I became anti DG they started name calling me etc... Forcing me to post on net to reveal stuff about DG. Inder Sinh (singh2) keeps ranting same thing over and over again. So, ANY BIR from PRE-1740s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 "The authenticity or otherwise isn't going to be settled here on this forum." The agenda driven naastiks who oppose 10th Masters writings are not going to settle for anything less than what their agenda allows. So far most of the idiots who have been excommunicated from Akaal Takht, with blessings from all the traditional Panth. They are being made to look like bufoons in debates and continuously show they have no knowledge of Sri Dasam Granth - as well as having all sorts of wacky ideas like NITNEM, Rehraas etc is incorrect due to the large inclusion of Dasam Bani. Only ignorant people would side with these clowns (sorry to say). The authenticity is not a question for the large part of the Panth inc all Sant/Mahapurkhs/Sampryada. The debate may be getting boring for you Tony, but that is rich comng from someone whose heroes are those same people who tried to restore Sikhi to its pre 'corrupted' position and rid the Panth of anti-Gurmat practices. Is the call for removing 3/5ths of NITNEM/changing amrit sanchaar, Chaupai Sahib, Panthic Ardaas... not a modern day attemp at corruption? Is a few anpar idiots causing a divide in the Panth not a problem strong enough to consider your attention? The discussions that go on here are influencing a silent/confused audience, so are in fact very relevant. Correct parchaar is relevant on any Sikh platform - just because you obviously do not believe in the complete authenticity of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, no need to belittle the importance/priority shown by those that do or those that don't know and wnat to khoj. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GillAUS Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 It is a Big Issue of Sikhi. It has become like the Sunni and Shia divide of Islam. All traditional groups like DDT, AKJ, Nihangs, etc, who have difference in beliefs with each other, but believe in Dasam Granth have come togheter on one side. Missionaries, normal Sikhs are on other side. They too have differences in believes. Some of them believe Guru Sahibaan to be normal human beings (by which most Sikhs of this category disagree). Inder Singh Ghagga says 5th Guru fell unconcious on Tati Tavi, which I don't agree with. And many other issues. But there is this MAIN divide, Pro DG and Anti DG... And it is in no way good for the panth. Before I wasn't really speaking against DG but I had my doubts. Just because of that my pro DG people began pushing me n stuff. Once I became anti DG they started name calling me etc... Forcing me to post on net to reveal stuff about DG. Inder Sinh (singh2) keeps ranting same thing over and over again. So, ANY BIR from PRE-1740s? What do you mean by 'normal Sikhs'? I consider myself a 'normal' Sikh, and I fully and firmly believe in the authenticity of Sri Dasam Granth! So now you're saying that people that don't believe in Sri Dasam Granth are abnormal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuptSingh1699 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Is a few anpar idiots causing a divide in the Panth not a problem strong enough to consider your attention? Anparh? I don't think all of your traditional sant babas were PhD's either. Or even primary pass, for that matter What do you mean by 'normal Sikhs'? I consider myself a 'normal' Sikh, and I fully and firmly believe in the authenticity of Sri Dasam Granth! So now you're saying that people that don't believe in Sri Dasam Granth are abnormal? I meant normal sikhs, Sikhs who have affiliation to no organisation/Jathebandi, following not one particular thought such as AKJ, DDT, Nanaksari, etc. Most Belgian Sikhs are normal, belonging to no sect and are Anti Dasam Granth. We have got an anti Dasam Granth Gurdwara here too. So, no Dasam Granth Bir that is before 1740s? And where is the so called Bhai Mani Singh Bir? (compiled in 1720s as said by most of my Pro Dasam Granth brothers/sisters). Can we make this an intelligent discussion for once please? It gets ruined by all of the Nindiya (to whomever it is, pro or anti side, it is BAD). I want a normal discussion, it is not as if Nitnem or 'Amrit Sanchaar' is going to get changed if we discuss like brothers on this forum. And it isn't like that either, that we are going to stop question DG with your nindya. I won't call it Kanjar Kavita or anything bad if a normal discussion with arguments takes place instead of (false) allegations and slanderings. Anti Side Questions/Arguments. 1) Is there any Bir prior to 1740s ? 2) Where is the (so-called) Bhai Mani Singh Bir compiled by him in 1720s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khalistan_zindabaad Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Is the gurdwara sahib pro guru granth sahib jee? Do you have a good missionary influence in belgium? Have you all lost the plot? possibly Anparh? I don't think all of your traditional sant babas were PhD's either. Or even primary pass, for that matter I meant normal sikhs, Sikhs who have affiliation to no organisation/Jathebandi, following not one particular thought such as AKJ, DDT, Nanaksari, etc. Most Belgian Sikhs are normal, belonging to no sect and are Anti Dasam Granth. We have got an anti Dasam Granth Gurdwara here too. So, no Dasam Granth Bir that is before 1740s? And where is the so called Bhai Mani Singh Bir? (compiled in 1720s as said by most of my Pro Dasam Granth brothers/sisters). Can we make this an intelligent discussion for once please? It gets ruined by all of the Nindiya (to whomever it is, pro or anti side, it is BAD). I want a normal discussion, it is not as if Nitnem or 'Amrit Sanchaar' is going to get changed if we discuss like brothers on this forum. And it isn't like that either, that we are going to stop question DG with your nindya. I won't call it Kanjar Kavita or anything bad if a normal discussion with arguments takes place instead of (false) allegations and slanderings. Anti Side Questions/Arguments. 1) Is there any Bir prior to 1740s ? 2) Where is the (so-called) Bhai Mani Singh Bir compiled by him in 1720s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuptSingh1699 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 No. Guru's Kirpa on us Belgian Singhs. May Guru do Kirpa and get you guys (esp UK, Canada is doing good) out of HANERA (DARKNESS) of ignorance and Karam Kaands. Tat Gurmat is alive in Belgium Sikhs. We will make sure all youth of Belgium stays true to Gurmat (meaning only Believing and reading Bani out of SGGS, no other Granths). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Tat Gurmat is alive in Belgium Sikhs. We will make sure all youth of Belgium stays true to Gurmat (meaning only Believing and reading Bani out of SGGS, no other Granths). So are you saying you are going to influence them to stop reading Jaap Sahib, Svaye, and Chaupai sahib (3/5 nitnem banis)>?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 (edited) Gupt Singh, since you are the one challenging the Panth's traditional position, the onus is on you to provide proof that these birs do not exist. Edited March 7, 2010 by Xylitol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zulu Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 No. Guru's Kirpa on us Belgian Singhs. May Guru do Kirpa and get you guys (esp UK, Canada is doing good) out of HANERA (DARKNESS) of ignorance and Karam Kaands. Tat Gurmat is alive in Belgium Sikhs. We will make sure all youth of Belgium stays true to Gurmat (meaning only Believing and reading Bani out of SGGS, no other Granths). silly people then aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuptSingh1699 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Xylitol brother, It has been done. Most of the youth have stopped doing Dasam Granth Bani's. We only do Nitnem bani's which occur in SGGS before Sri Raag (1st raag). How so? You can't provide any Granths means there aren't. There is none, so you can't show any. How strange. No bir from Guru Gobind Singh. No bir compiled by Bhai Mani Singh. No Bir as written by Baba Deep Singh. No Birs before mid of 18th century... Zulu, Sikhs following only SGGS are silly? Then what are people following DG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zulu Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Xylitol brother, It has been done. Most of the youth have stopped doing Dasam Granth Bani's. We only do Nitnem bani's which occur in SGGS before Sri Raag (1st raag). How so? You can't provide any Granths means there aren't. There is none, so you can't show any. How strange. No bir from Guru Gobind Singh. No bir compiled by Bhai Mani Singh. No Bir as written by Baba Deep Singh. No Birs before mid of 18th century... Zulu, Sikhs following only SGGS are silly? Then what are people following DG? you like twisting things don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 The dates written within Sri Dasam Granth, by Guru Sahib, are enough proof. Besides, nobody has ever dated any of the old birs, whether of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Sri Dasam Granth - all forms of accurate dating are destructive and hence not used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuptSingh1699 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 (edited) What do I twist? Tell me where I twist. No Bir of Bhai Mani Singh exists, and you guys are doing "gol mol" since the thread started. Can't say that there is no Bir by Bhai Mani Singh... He never compiled one. Edited March 7, 2010 by GuptSingh1699 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zulu Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 What do I twist? Tell me where I twist. you twist your mucha? I meant about reading other granths.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Guptsingh, how do you know who compiled the old birs we have - do you expect to find signatures of the compiler? I mentioned in another thread how no bir, whether Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Sri Dasam Granth, has been accurately dated. The reason is that accurate dating methods are all destructive. Many of the banis within Sri Dasam Granth have dates written in them, by Guru Sahib. For Sikhs who have faith in Guru Ji, that is enough proof. Can you explain to me which teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji you follow and which ones from Sri Dasam Granth you don't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuptSingh1699 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 @ Zulu, hanji, muchan ta twist karda Got them recently haha. Hmm other granths... Well its true isn't it? @ Matheen, Exactly, thats why I ask if there is any pre 1740/1750 Bir. But Bhai Mani Singh Bir is the "so called" first bir of DG ever, how come that it is untraceable? Well if we see datings, in Avtar section it is 1688 then 1687 then 1688... How come? And btw, the dates could have been inserted later on, don't you think so? I follow the whole of Guru Granth Sahib Maharaaj... I used to be Pro whole of DG. I had on my pc all Banian, present Dasam Granth, other compositions such as 8 deleted ones by Sodhak Comittee, Uggardanti, Sadd Lakhi Jungle etc... I had doubts from beginning, but love for Shaheeds was stopping me from questioning it. When I did, I felt bad. Then I read whole of Charitropakhyan and turned anti Chaupai. Slowly slowly I have become anti whole of Dasam Granth... So whole of SGGS and none of DG is the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuptSingh1699 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Dating is done easily. Inder Singh (lakhwinder singh of usa aka singh2 on this site) and Lamba have claimed that there is a 1698 Dasam Granth Bir, its Tatkara pic is on Patshahi10.org. It is fake, how do we know? I got pic of same bir where Zafarnama is written in same ink and handwriting, which shows that the Bir couldn't have been compiled anytime before 1706. This is dating and puts the fake date of samvat 1755 in Tatkara wrong and shows bir as fake. Then there is this Bhai Mani Singh bir. Nobody knows where it was before 1818. So important bir, and yet we don't know in whose posession it was before 1818, strange? It is Banno version of SGGS, showing scribe can't be Mani Singh. Biggest mistake in it is that a Dohra of Kavi Alam is attributed to Guru Gobind Singh. This is how we can do 'parkh' of asli and naqli my brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menu ke patha Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 wow, so much shanka, so much lack of sharda wow unbelieveable, belgium sikhs stop doing all other baneea(n)m only b4 siree raag! vah vey vah guptsingh veerejee, r u sunnybond guy on SS, daas used to think you were bare chardeekalaa!..challo bhanaa... vaahigurooo maharaj jee bakkshoo loo!! maharaaj jee! vaahiguroojee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 mod note: any discussion regarding dating is to be kept to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuptSingh1699 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Hanji Bhaji I am the same Sunny Singh from SikhSangat. I think I wasn't Chardikalla reading all those DG compositions. Why didn't Guru Ji put 4 Banian before Sri Raag (1st raag) in raags? Because THAT is our Nitnem. Tankhahnama amongst some other Puratan sources also agrees on the fact that we should read Japuji in morning, Rehraas in evening and Sohila before sleeping. Sharda doesn't mean that we should take anything where Patshahi 10 is written on and worship it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 (edited) Now you want to make a new Nitnem? How will you guys do Amrit Sanchar? You speak of unity..... You also say you follow Guru Sahib's teachings - how did you become a Sikh of Guru Sahib, what initiation did you undergo? Do you wake up at Amritvela, have ishnan and do Simran? Edited March 7, 2010 by Matheen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuptSingh1699 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Don't go off topic please. Yes I do get up at early in the morning to do Japji Sahib and Anand Sahib. Stick to topic please. Any Bir dating before 1740s or by Bhai Mani Singh or Baba Deep Singh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Dating is done easily. Inder Singh (lakhwinder singh of usa aka singh2 on this site) and Lamba have claimed that there is a 1698 Dasam Granth Bir, its Tatkara pic is on Patshahi10.org. It is fake, how do we know? I got pic of same bir where Zafarnama is written in same ink and handwriting,...... Got a link to the photos? Have you seen the bir yourself? Where in Guru Sahib does it say to wake up and read JapJi Sahib and Anand Sahib? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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