Coverage On Ravidassia Sikh Brothers

[kdsingh80]

lol, the japanese are world leaders in the field of robotics. What is the point of a highly advanced civilization producing millions of people who will be unhappy working in low sector jobs?

Robots cannot go and vote,they don't have human rights.It is people who have.Happiness and unhappiness is rather a state of mind.I could show you plenty of mazdoors in India which are happy laughing and on the other hand many corporate workers which are severally depressed

As for the falling birth rate, this has more to do with the decline in the importance of the family in both those cultures, something which is a core part of sikhi

Really ,the way sikh families in India are declining ,it does not look to me as if it is a core part

Now there isnt even enough money to go round to give them all a good education and healthcare. Germany and Japan dont have these problems.

May be after 200 years children will be reading a chapter in their books about why Germany and Japanese civilisations became extinct ,at that time may this point that they don't give enough benefit to women could come

[HSD1]

Robots cannot go and vote,they don't have human rights.

Perfect. No communists, no revolutions, just machinery. If we did the same with farming, do you know what would happen? Yes, that's right, sikhs would have to get off the farms and start doing proper jobs that actually benefit society. No jatts, no pindus, no ruralism. If a machine can do your job as well as you, it's time to do something more productive with your life.

It is people who have.

And? Democracy works better in smaller groups. A falling population is actually better for democracy. Sikhs living in the hindu-majority india should know this best of all.

Happiness and unhappiness is rather a state of mind.I could show you plenty of mazdoors in India which are happy laughing and on the other hand many corporate workers which are severally depressed

Well I think if sikhs tried to achieve a high level of industry it would achieve a great purpose. Why? It allows kids to grow up and do what they want to do rather than taking the money route. Robotics isnt just to get everyone into the corporate sector. Can robots write poetry, paint masterpieces, compose songs, analyse history, write fiction and all the other things that humans do?

Really ,the way sikh families in India are declining ,it does not look to me as if it is a core part

I said sikhi not hindustani.

May be after 200 years children will be reading a chapter in their books about why Germany and Japanese civilisations became extinct ,at that time may this point that they don't give enough benefit to women could come

Or not. Britain needs plebs to work in her factories as she cant tolerate more immigration or fathom robotic technology (the anglos arent as inventive as they like to think they are). Do you honestly think that the germans and japanese are just going to sit there doing nothing if their population level falls to dangerous levels? Japan is overcrowded as it is, she only needs more people if their planning to invade someone. Same goes for germany. Issues like this are a lot deeper than what is put on a news website.

Edited February 11, 2011 by HSD 2

[kdsingh80]

Perfect. No communists, no revolutions, just machinery. If we did the same with farming, do you know what would happen? Yes, that's right, sikhs would have to get off the farms and start doing proper jobs that actually benefit society. No jatts, no pindus, no ruralism. If a machine can do your job as well as you, it's time to do something more productive with your life

You really have wild imaginations.If sikhs wil leave farming and start searching for other jobs then their will be massive civil unrest as there are not enough white collar jobs.Also there is nothing wrong in farming ,it is as respectable job as doing a white collar job

And? Democracy works better in smaller groups. A falling population is actually better for democracy. Sikhs living in the hindu-majority india should know this best of all.

In multi religious society It is numbers that count.small population is curse when you are surrounded by millions of people of other religions.Why only muslims as minority were able to get Pakistan? Why no countries were offered to other minorities ? The answer is simple they did not have numbers

It is because of

I said sikhi not hindustani.

And i said Sikh families not hindustani Families .Muslim families in India are doing fine in this subject.They were barely 10% after partition now they are 15% soon they will acheive their pre partition status of 25 %

[HSD1]

You really have wild imaginations.If sikhs wil leave farming and start searching for other jobs then their will be massive civil unrest as there are not enough white collar jobs.Also there is nothing wrong in farming ,it is as respectable job as doing a white collar job

LOL, I dont mean go out tomorrow and do it. Do you have any understanding of how societies and civilizations develop and why they do so? My points are more of a long term thing as Punjab is about 50 years behind most other industrialised places. As for farming, people moan we are too ruralised, then say farming is a good job. Yes it is, if you want to be a farmer. But the large number of farmers in Punjab with their ever shrinking holdings is not good for us in the long term. Say what you want about the Germans and Japanese, what are your lot going to do when there is not enough land to go around the next generation and foreign countries dont want dumb farmboys immigrating to their country?

In multi religious society It is numbers that count.small population is curse when you are surrounded by millions of people of other religions.Why only muslims as minority were able to get Pakistan? Why no countries were offered to other minorities ? The answer is simple they did not have numbers

It is because of

That's my point. Do Germany and Japan have large minorities who could overtake the ethnic majority? In Germany's case they are trying to sort out the turks. The japanese dont have any large minorities. That is why falling populations are good for democracy as each individual's vote counts for more. Thats why I talked about hindustan, if the population of hindus fell, wouldnt the minorities be able to take advantage as their votes count for more?

And i said Sikh families not hindustani Families .Muslim families in India are doing fine in this subject.They were barely 10% after partition now they are 15% soon they will acheive their pre partition status of 25 %

Did you read that in the same website that said Germany and Japan are going to disappear because they arent having children? Having children and a family is an important part of sikhi, our Gurus said as much. Just because the sikh family structure cannot survive in hindustan does not mean that its not part of our heritage or what our Gurus intended. In germany and japan, none of their belief systems advocate large families. The only times in their history when they did try to have large families was when they had ample resources and when they were colonizing others. There is no point having more sikhs if you cant even provide them a decent upbringing. Even if our birthrate increased, what would it achieve? 20 million wont turn into 1 billion anytime soon. To reach 100 million, sikhs would have to produce 10 children in each family and thats if everyone got married. I said it before and I'll say it again, these issues are far deeper than what you see or read from the outside.

Your problem is that you think everyone is like us sikhs. We see problems or opportunities and we are quiet (probably because we believe that it will all work out in the end!). When the problem hits us in the face or the opportunity dissapears forever, we suddenly become very vocal even though we know we cant do anything about it. Muslims are having more kids in india. Big deal. The hindustanis will deal with them the way they have been before. Germany and Japan have falling birth rates. Will it effect their economy? No. I have explained why and there are numerous other things both countries are doing, that arent in the news websites, to ensure their survival. They wont just sit there watching it all fall apart like we do and then start saying 'We should do something!' like we sikhs do after its too late.

Edited February 11, 2011 by HSD 2

[dalsingh101]

If we did the same with farming, do you know what would happen? Yes, that's right, sikhs would have to get off the farms and start doing proper jobs that actually benefit society. No jatts, no pindus, no ruralism. If a machine can do your job as well as you, it's time to do something more productive with your life.

Lets be frank, a fair portion of those farmers don't work the lands themselves at all. My own cousins are the same. So this is no solution because then everyone will start cutting each others neck over the white collar jobs and that nepotistic clan mentality will kick in turning that into a model of discrimination etc.

Besides, that global warming lark is a serious threat to Panjab's agricultural economy. You know those pendus don't think forward and are likely to get caught with their kutcha down in this one. Okay, "so what", you may say, "they always do on just about everything!"

But no, cocking up here will almost certainly guarantee having our children big bellied, with flies crawling all over their faces, crying for food in the media in future. Yes, I'm talking possible famine.

When you think about it like that, maybe we need to forget Panjab and start digging in deep outside?

Edited February 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

Lets be frank, a fair portion of those farmers don't work the lands themselves at all. My own cousins are the same. So this is no solution because then everyone will start cutting each others neck over the white collar jobs and that nepotistic clan mentality will kick turning that into a model of discrimination etc.

Lol, it's not all about the white collar jobs. We need thinkers, academics, artists and all sorts of other types of people if we are to be a people who can call themselves an independant nation rather than a dependant community.

Besides that global warming lark is a serious threat to Panjab's agricultural economy. You know those pendus don't think forward and are likely to get caught with their kutcha down in this one. Okay, "so what", you may say, "they always do on just about everything!"

But no, cocking up here will almost certainly guarantee having our children big bellied, with flies crawling on our faces, crying for food all over the media in future.

This is what I was alluding to in the first part of post #29. We made our bed, we have to lie in it. All I do know is that non-sikhs are going to piss themselves with laughter when this happens.

When you think about it like that, maybe we need to forget Panjab and start digging in deep outside?

Our communities all over the world are superfluous. In the non-anglo countries they are too small to survive in the long term. In England, most of us still live in the same towns our grandparents came to. They came to these places for the factory jobs, yet many sikhs havent bothered to concentrate themselves in better parts of the country after these jobs disappeared. In fact many sikhs live no better than chavs, even though they own hundreds of thousands pounds worth of land back in Punjab. Why does this matter? Well many of the areas our grandparents came to have shit schools. Sending your kids to the same places as the chavs and pakis do is just asking for trouble, as well as giving them a shit education. Why do you think the posh lot put so much effort into their private schools? Add to that the fact there are large paki communities wherever there are sikhs we just dont have any breathing space. As for canada and america i see some hope. But with the large scale hindu migration to these places I dont think it will be long before we are vilified and marginalised there too. Time to start thinking outside the box.

Edited February 11, 2011 by HSD 2

[dalsingh101]

It's time to get majorly arty-farty in my opinion.

Influence through the arts.

Edited February 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

It's time to get majorly arty-farty in my opinion.

Influence through the arts.

It's definitely one angle that we need to get our asses organized in and be clever with what we do. But it wont solve the problems we have with our community and the way it's structured, especially in the UK. People over here love their bhangra/drinking culture.

[dalsingh101]

Look at how people are susceptible like muppets to media influence, if it is presented in a glamorized fashion. That's what makes a lot of apneean switch be it to Holly or Bollywood. We need to present models, concepts and ideas in that way. Fight fire with fire.

Not the cheesy, poorly written, unintelligent, poorly acted corny crap we usually produce.

e.g.

Edited February 12, 2011 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

It aint all that bad:

At least these videos show some good ideas and production values.

[kdsingh80]

Germany and Japan have falling birth rates. Will it effect their economy? No. I have explained why and there are numerous other things both countries are doing, that arent in the news websites, to ensure their survival. They wont just sit there watching it all fall apart like we do and then start saying

Japan shows what happens when a country begins losing its ultimate resource. The country’s economic misfortunes, which began in the early 1990s after decades of post–World War II growth and have persisted with little relief, often get blamed on the bursting of the country’s real-estate bubble, government support of banks laden with bad loans, and a highly regulated and uncompetitive domestic economy. But as years went by and the Japanese economy failed to cycle out of its downturn, observers gradually realized that something even deeper afflicted it: not enough people. Japan was stuck in “the world’s first low-birth recession,” in the words of sociologist Yamada Masahiro.

The size of Japan’s workforce population peaked in the mid-1990s; since then, it has been shrinking—and aging. At Matsushita Electric Industrial, now Panasonic, for example, the age of an average worker increased from 31 in 1980 to 41 in 2002. This graying has caused a significant slump in Japan’s once-vaunted productivity. Older workers’ experience can be valuable, but they tend to be less productive than their younger counterparts because they generally work fewer hours, are more costly to employ (since their seniority-based wages are higher), and aren’t as adaptable or as up-to-date technologically. Japanese productivity (as measured by worker output per hour), once the envy of the industrialized world, is now just 70 percent of America’s and below the average of the 32 countries that make up the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

As aging Japanese workers poured ever more of their earnings into retirement accounts, consumer spending suffered, too. Between 1990 and 2000, average Japanese household spending actually shrank, once adjusted for inflation. While savings can lift an economy by providing more capital for business investment, Japanese producers viewed the increasing savings and the falling consumption as a sign of population stagnation, and they stopped investing at home, instead expanding in overseas markets like the U.S.

Japan’s economic doldrums seem semipermanent. Japan’s economy grew by a paltry 10 percent in the 1990s, or less than 1 percent a year, after averaging inflation-adjusted gains of 40 to 50 percent per decade during the 1970s and 1980s. After a brief growth spurt from 2004 through 2007, Japan’s economy has again contracted, is smaller today than it was a decade ago, and “will contract in size from now on,” Japanese economist Akihiko Matsutani predicts.

http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_1_birthrates.html

[chatanga1]

I don't ever think we are going to be on the same page on this issue.

we can be on the same page. all you have to do is agree with me.

[HSD1]

Japan shows what happens when a country begins losing its ultimate resource. The country’s economic misfortunes, which began in the early 1990s after decades of post–World War II growth and have persisted with little relief, often get blamed on the bursting of the country’s real-estate bubble, government support of banks laden with bad loans, and a highly regulated and uncompetitive domestic economy. But as years went by and the Japanese economy failed to cycle out of its downturn, observers gradually realized that something even deeper afflicted it: not enough people. Japan was stuck in “the world’s first low-birth recession,” in the words of sociologist Yamada Masahiro.

The size of Japan’s workforce population peaked in the mid-1990s; since then, it has been shrinking—and aging. At Matsushita Electric Industrial, now Panasonic, for example, the age of an average worker increased from 31 in 1980 to 41 in 2002. This graying has caused a significant slump in Japan’s once-vaunted productivity. Older workers’ experience can be valuable, but they tend to be less productive than their younger counterparts because they generally work fewer hours, are more costly to employ (since their seniority-based wages are higher), and aren’t as adaptable or as up-to-date technologically. Japanese productivity (as measured by worker output per hour), once the envy of the industrialized world, is now just 70 percent of America’s and below the average of the 32 countries that make up the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

As aging Japanese workers poured ever more of their earnings into retirement accounts, consumer spending suffered, too. Between 1990 and 2000, average Japanese household spending actually shrank, once adjusted for inflation. While savings can lift an economy by providing more capital for business investment, Japanese producers viewed the increasing savings and the falling consumption as a sign of population stagnation, and they stopped investing at home, instead expanding in overseas markets like the U.S.

Japan’s economic doldrums seem semipermanent. Japan’s economy grew by a paltry 10 percent in the 1990s, or less than 1 percent a year, after averaging inflation-adjusted gains of 40 to 50 percent per decade during the 1970s and 1980s. After a brief growth spurt from 2004 through 2007, Japan’s economy has again contracted, is smaller today than it was a decade ago, and “will contract in size from now on,” Japanese economist Akihiko Matsutani predicts.

http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_1_birthrates.html

Again with the random news web site links. Look, japan has over 100 million people. It is the worlds 3rd largest economy. In a normal world a country with a population that size wouldnt be so high in the rankings. Do you honestly think that a set of 4 small islands could continue at a ridiculous economic growth level? No. Earlier I quoted Germany and Japan because they were countries who suffered major defeats just like Punjab did. Are you honestly telling me that if Germany and Japan had done what the americans wanted and become agriculture based nations that they would now be better off today? This is why sikhs can never have a decent discussion as someone will always pick up on one little thing and try to bash everyone over the head with it. Germany and Japan may have falling birth rates but they also dont have a lot of other problems we do have. This topic was about caste and how to stop people moving away from sikhi. One point that causes others to leave are the economic incentives. Another is the caste politics of a rural people. All I'm saying is that others have got past this, not by sitting on farms and bickering but by industrialisation. Ok, so Punjabis might be too stupid to industrialise but just because a sick patient wont take the medicine doesnt mean there is something wrong with the medicine. At the end of the day you're entitled to your opinion but I have the right to disagree if all I see is you regurgitating things you have read on the web.

[chatanga1]

Ok, so Punjabis might be too stupid to industrialise...

punjabis have fought very hard for industrialisation but central govt wouldnt allow it. major factories were always given to other states, as central govt always used the excuse of panjab being a border state, that any major industry focused in panjab was very vunerable to pakistani attack, whereas the pakistanis have no such qualms about industry in their part of panjab.

Panjabis aren't too stupid, they just have always been on the recieving end of central govt bias. A strong panjab is not favourable to central govt.

[HSD1]

punjabis have fought very hard for industrialisation but central govt wouldnt allow it. major factories were always given to other states, as central govt always used the excuse of panjab being a border state, that any major industry focused in panjab was very vunerable to pakistani attack, whereas the pakistanis have no such qualms about industry in their part of panjab.

Panjabis aren't too stupid, they just have always been on the recieving end of central govt bias. A strong panjab is not favourable to central govt.

lol, I was referring to the sikhs who are too stupid to see the importance of industry in Punjab rather than the ones who are trying but failing to get more industry in Punjab. The fact that the indian govt wont give it to us should be a sign to sikhs of how important it is to get. We all know that a state full of sikhs is probably the best place to be in case of a paki attack. The govt just talk rubbish and everyone accepts it.

[chatanga1]

lol, I was referring to the sikhs who are too stupid to see the importance of industry in Punjab...

are there any sikhs that stupid? ive never came across any sikh or panjabi that didnt see the importance of industry in panjab?

[Mithar]

Japan shows what happens when a country begins losing its ultimate resource. The country’s economic misfortunes, which began in the early 1990s after decades of post–World War II growth and have persisted with little relief, often get blamed on the bursting of the country’s real-estate bubble, government support of banks laden with bad loans, and a highly regulated and uncompetitive domestic economy. But as years went by and the Japanese economy failed to cycle out of its downturn, observers gradually realized that something even deeper afflicted it: not enough people. Japan was stuck in “the world’s first low-birth recession,” in the words of sociologist Yamada Masahiro.

The size of Japan’s workforce population peaked in the mid-1990s; since then, it has been shrinking—and aging. At Matsushita Electric Industrial, now Panasonic, for example, the age of an average worker increased from 31 in 1980 to 41 in 2002. This graying has caused a significant slump in Japan’s once-vaunted productivity. Older workers’ experience can be valuable, but they tend to be less productive than their younger counterparts because they generally work fewer hours, are more costly to employ (since their seniority-based wages are higher), and aren’t as adaptable or as up-to-date technologically. Japanese productivity (as measured by worker output per hour), once the envy of the industrialized world, is now just 70 percent of America’s and below the average of the 32 countries that make up the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

As aging Japanese workers poured ever more of their earnings into retirement accounts, consumer spending suffered, too. Between 1990 and 2000, average Japanese household spending actually shrank, once adjusted for inflation. While savings can lift an economy by providing more capital for business investment, Japanese producers viewed the increasing savings and the falling consumption as a sign of population stagnation, and they stopped investing at home, instead expanding in overseas markets like the U.S.

Japan’s economic doldrums seem semipermanent. Japan’s economy grew by a paltry 10 percent in the 1990s, or less than 1 percent a year, after averaging inflation-adjusted gains of 40 to 50 percent per decade during the 1970s and 1980s. After a brief growth spurt from 2004 through 2007, Japan’s economy has again contracted, is smaller today than it was a decade ago, and “will contract in size from now on,” Japanese economist Akihiko Matsutani predicts.

http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_1_birthrates.html

Great article. Japan and Germany both are facing a demographic problem with their shrinking population which is getting older and older. Russia was facing a similar problem about a decade ago, but thanks to Putin, it is experiences a positive population growth rate for the first time since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Problem with Punjab and Sikhs in particular is that Sikhs have the lowest birth rate in India grouped together with Sikhs wanting to leave India to go abroad. This is all spelling a future demographic disaster for the Sikhs. Our grand parents generation had very large families, in fact they used to praise large families, but for some strange reason our parents and also our generation have had very low birth rates. I think the problem is Sikhs of today view babies/children as being a social and financial burden to their own lifestyle, which is also a reason why most Sikhs don't even have a problem with murdering their own children (Abortion). Problem is with our thinking, we have become very selfish and worldly. Today every Sikh family you see in Punjab has only 1 or 2 children. We have a negative birth rate, which can take decades to recover from. Sikhs need to have more babies.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Mithar

[dalsingh101]

megalol@

we can be on the same page. all you have to do is agree with me.

Oh, well, at least you put a smile on my face.

[kdsingh80]

Again with the random news web site links. Look, japan has over 100 million people. It is the worlds 3rd largest economy. In a normal world a country with a population that size wouldnt be so high in the rankings. Do you honestly think that a set of 4 small islands could continue at a ridiculous economic growth level? No. Earlier I quoted Germany and Japan because they were countries who suffered major defeats just like Punjab did. Are you honestly telling me that if Germany and Japan had done what the americans wanted and become agriculture based nations that they would now be better off today? This is why sikhs can never have a decent discussion as someone will always pick up on one little thing and try to bash everyone over the head with it. Germany and Japan may have falling birth rates but they also dont have a lot of other problems we do have. This topic was about caste and how to stop people moving away from sikhi. One point that causes others to leave are the economic incentives. Another is the caste politics of a rural people. All I'm saying is that others have got past this, not by sitting on farms and bickering but by industrialisation. Ok, so Punjabis might be too stupid to industrialise but just because a sick patient wont take the medicine doesnt mean there is something wrong with the medicine. At the end of the day you're entitled to your opinion but I have the right to disagree if all I see is you regurgitating things you have read on the web.

Take chill pill HSD and let me reply to your points 1 by 1

1)The reason I posted this article because you said that low birth rate is not affecting growth of those countries ,while the reality is Japan is fast losing its ground because of lower birth rate.

2)Germany and Japan became puppets of USA after 2nd world war.could you honestly believe that they have same amount of influence on world what it was prior to war.Both countries are at total mercy of USA if some aggressive country try to invade them.After second war they have been robbed of their pride ,self respect and they just choose themselves to become note printing machines and even lost their family values Do you believe this model is good for sikhs?

3)Now coming to industrilisation I am not saying Punjab should not be industrilised ,but the big question is ,are Punjabi's willing to work like other third world countries with third world conditions at third world wage .let me tell you wages,salaries in India are not so good unless You are crazily smart and working for high profile organistaions.So first thing is Punjabi's need to revert back simple living,hard working attitude .There is no way Punjab could provide the lifestyle or facilities what you people are receiving in canada ,Uk or USA

4)You also mentioned about going off topic discussion.I admit that this thread has gone off topic but look at other threads on this .majority of threads on this site where there are good discussion have gone off topic.Already SA has very limited participation what matter is discussion and people express their views without getting personal at each other

5)now coming to farming.Farming is not a bane for sikhs but a boon in 21st century.With so many countries short of Farmers ,they have no choice but to invite expert farmers from other countries .In this way Sikhs have much better chance of earning money rather than working like slave chinese worker and merely getting 8000-10000 rupees per month

6)

[dalsingh101]

So first thing is Punjabi's need to revert back simple living,hard working attitude.

I think this doesn't get discussed enough in my opinion. If you analyse it, KDS and HSD are suggesting two diametrically opposed solutions to the same issue. Now, the way I see it, the root of the problem is closely linked to Panjabis (especially and particularly the jatts for cultural reasons that we should already be aware of), strong desire for not only mod cons but also ways to exhibit their status. This drives much of what they do. It looks like they have put this at the centre of their 'culture'.

Now HSD seems to be seeking means/methods to allow them to achieve these materialistic desires. On the other hand KDS, in his statement above seems to be implying that Panjabis in general need to tone down these materialist aspirations and learn to accept living more humbly and within means.

Now, I know for a fact, that Sant Jarnail Singh's whole ethos actually caused peasants to adopt the latter type of lifestyle and they prospered by saving money, doing lots of work themselves and not spending it on booze, drugs and other unnecessary luxuries. So it isn't actually something that hasn't been tried before.

I think the rewriting of history on an egocentric plank that contends all jatts were 'sardars' and somehow have some birthright to greatness, (that certain pillocks like to subtly and not so subtly imply using popular songs and even motivated written work), plays a big part in too many jatts over stretching their ambition to unrealistic and frankly stupid aspirations. This has led to a hordes of lazy, good for nothing idiots being abound who have an aversion to do the very work their forefathers were so proud of. Hence we have reliance on bhaiyas like never before.

Given the current situation I think that KDS's solution is the better of the two suggested. I know other communities have subsistence farmers (hell, even in Italy, a so called 1st world nation!), who eat and live well. An old Lebenese lecturer of mine showed me subsistence farmers from her neck of the woods that looked well and ate and lived well.

Note, when I say subsistence here, they also sold any surplus for additional funds. Point is, farmers do and can live well like this. But when you've got people whose heads are filled with all sorts of stupid crap, they can't help but do stupid things.

Farming is not a bane for sikhs but a boon in 21st century.With so many countries short of Farmers ,they have no choice but to invite expert farmers from other countries .In this way Sikhs have much better chance of earning money rather than working like slave chinese worker and merely getting 8000-10000 rupees per month.

I agree, farming is an honourable job. But being a farmer and imagining you are some sort of higher overlord is a mugs game, as many are finding out. They need to get back to the humble roots of their faith more than ever I reckon. All these 'modern' vibes aren't doing them any favours. And all of this plays into their attitudes towards people like Ravidasias.

Edited February 13, 2011 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

1)The reason I posted this article because you said that low birth rate is not affecting growth of those countries ,while the reality is Japan is fast losing its ground because of lower birth rate.

Again you're not linking together what I'm saying. Germany and Japan will get over their population issues. Just because you've read something somewhere doesnt matter, papers 50 years ago were filled with predictions on trends which never came true. The same is true for papers 100 years ago. Japan is a crowded island, which does not need a massive population for the same reason as Russia (to hold territory). In fact the japanese are pushing non-labour intensive technology to levels that will be apparent one day. The government over there are also looking into why young people are not getting married and having children. When they complete that research they will take measures to correct it. To say that in one century nations like Japan and Germany will disappear is just crazy.

Germany and Japan became puppets of USA after 2nd world war.could you honestly believe that they have same amount of influence on world what it was prior to war.Both countries are at total mercy of USA if some aggressive country try to invade them.After second war they have been robbed of their pride ,self respect and they just choose themselves to become note printing machines and even lost their family values Do you believe this model is good for sikhs?

Again you miss my point. America wanted to turn both countries into agricultural economies. But a peasant society was more susceptible to communism, which forced america to allow both countries to develop. Punjab had the same thing with the British. They destroyed our factories, foundries and schools as well as most of the other defensive infrastructure in Punjab. They also confiscated all mechanical farm equipment in order to make farming more labour intensive. If sikhs were farming then they wouldnt be fighting the british. The British created the obsession with land. The british had no need to keep any of the Punjabi infrastructure in place as they could just import anything they needed from britain. America needed industrial bases in Japan and Germany to fight communism. Why the hell you think that the germans and japanese dont have it better than the sikhs is beyond me. But if you believe that the germans and japanese have been hard done by and we sikhs havent then you are welcome to your views.

As for the status of both countries, are we sikhs not also under a deluge of foreign culture from those who have beaten us? Are we also not reliant on others for our protection from foreign threats? A long time ago a man in germany saw how Prussia was a small country who would never have the power of britain/france or russia because germans were disunited. He used the threat of the french to unify germany and turn her into a nation that could wage war against her numerous enemies. Over the century it didnt go quite to plan for his country, but what would have happened if germany hadnt united and industrialised? They would have been the playthings of the french or russians.

The japanese were no different. They spent centuries living in isolation as they didnt want anything to do with the outside world. Then foreign countries sent their ships into her harbours forcing Japan to trade with the outside world. Ships with more cannons than a large japanese castle. The japanese werent stupid, they knew what they had to do. They modernised and took back their soveriegnty and national dignity (something sikhs should learn a bit about!). Of course they lost WW2 as well. But what if they hadnt bothered modernising a century before? They would have been colonised sooner, their culture would have disappeared quicker and today we wouldnt even know their rich history. Did the japanese for a minute think that they should go back to being samurai with katanas and do a bit of praying to ward away all their problems? Of course not, they're not stupid.

Now coming to industrilisation I am not saying Punjab should not be industrilised ,but the big question is ,are Punjabi's willing to work like other third world countries with third world conditions at third world wage .let me tell you wages,salaries in India are not so good unless You are crazily smart and working for high profile organistaions.So first thing is Punjabi's need to revert back simple living,hard working attitude .There is no way Punjab could provide the lifestyle or facilities what you people are receiving in canada ,Uk or USA

Is that true for all Punjabis though? Or even people from other states who would be willing to come and work in Punjab? Plenty of freshies work in sweatshops around the uk, they dont seem to mind.

now coming to farming.Farming is not a bane for sikhs but a boon in 21st century.With so many countries short of Farmers ,they have no choice but to invite expert farmers from other countries .In this way Sikhs have much better chance of earning money rather than working like slave chinese worker and merely getting 8000-10000 rupees per month

If farming is so good, why are punjabi farmers leaving the Punjab? The truth is that in the rest of the world farms have got bigger and bigger due to technology and the people growing up on farms deciding to do something they're good at or interested in rather than something they are used to. Being a bunch of farmers will get the sikh nation nowhere. As long as the majority of sikhs dwell on farming or that whole mindset we can kiss goodbye to having the manpower in other areas.

I think this doesn't get discussed enough in my opinion. If you analyse it, KDS and HSD are suggesting two diametrically opposed solutions to the same issue. Now, the way I see it, the root of the problem is closely linked to Panjabis (especially and particularly the jatts for cultural reasons that we should already be aware of), strong desire for not only mod cons but also ways to exhibit their status. This drives much of what they do. It looks like they have put this at the centre of their 'culture'.

So non-jatts dont like technology or improving their lifestyle? What do you wnat us to do? Go back to being nomads likes its 1700?

Now HSD seems to be seeking means/methods to allow them to achieve these materialistic desires. On the other hand KDS, in his statement above seems to be implying that Panjabis in general need to tone down these materialist aspirations and learn to accept living more humbly and within means.

I'm talking about improving a nation as a whole. Like we would have developed if we hadnt been overrun by the british. The native americans were pretty humble and spiritual and where did it get them? Casinos? That was worth it.

Now, I know for a fact, that Sant Jarnail Singh's whole ethos actually caused peasants to adopt the latter type of lifestyle and they prospered by saving money, doing lots of work themselves and not spending it on booze, drugs and other unnecessary luxuries. So it isn't actually something that hasn't been tried before.

So where am I advocating drug taking, drinking or materialism. It's becoming apparent many people just cant read properly without trying to form baseless opinions and weird theories.

Given the current situation I think that KDS's solution is the better of the two suggested. I know other communities have subsistence farmers (hell, even in Italy, a so called 1st world nation!), who eat and live well. An old Lebenese lecturer of mine showed me subsistence farmers from her neck of the woods that looked well and ate and lived well.

Great idea. The land not needed by punjabi families can be sold to the indian govt so they can set up the collectives they so desperately want, farmed by dopey sikhs with no aspiration beyond being a simpleton. Has it ever occured to anyone why there tends to be more intelligent people in more developed nations but not so much in the rural 3rd world? No? Well think about it.

[dalsingh101]

So non-jatts dont like technology or improving their lifestyle? What do you wnat us to do? Go back to being nomads likes its 1700?

That's where you and me differ, you see it as improving their lifestyles yet even a cursory study of non whites who adopt white culture styles around the globe indicates that doing this leads to all manner of psychological, social and physical problems. What the people are aspiring to may well be 'modern', but that doesn't mean that it is an improvement. It is plainly maya (illusion) that is making them think that it is. What we need to be asking is why we aren't putting more energy into developing our own models for progression that fit into our own native religious framework (without the dogma). Of course there are good ideas we can learn from the west, but a lot of their ideas are now proving to be VERY detrimental to society and the environment. I'm just suggesting more creativity and discernment on our part that's all. Industrialisation is a part of the solution but over industrialising a tiny area like Panjab will only shift the environmental problems from a rural source to an industrial one. Sorry but there are no simple clear solutions here.

I'm talking about improving a nation as a whole. Like we would have developed if we hadnt been overrun by the british. The native americans were pretty humble and spiritual and where did it get them? Casinos? That was worth it.

There is no way of telling what direction our society would have gone in under those circs. To presume they would have taken the industrial revolution route is presumptuous to an extreme. What way do you imagine our society would have gone?

In regard to your comments about the Indians. Well, we are yet to see where whiteys kartootaan are going to lead them in the long run. But from where I am standing it looks pretty bleak for them. Their sun is setting and pretty soon they will either have to learn to humble themselves globally or get into a REALLY dirty, ugly war outside. Time will tell. But it certainly isn't sunny for them. God knows where their collective karma is going to lead them. The main thing they have is their ability to cause mass destruction with their weapons.

So where am I advocating drug taking, drinking or materialism. It's becoming apparent many people just cant read properly without trying to form baseless opinions and weird theories.

I think some of your theories are over projections and weird and don't really take into account the very nature of our people (especially back home). But they are interesting to hear none the less. You'd better get used to people questioning what you say, and offering alternative viewpoints.

I'm not saying that YOU are advocating those things. What I'm saying is that when you introduce modernisation and wealth to our people they seem to totally abuse it through showing off, getting high drunk, fancy celebrations etc. Thinking logically/chronologically we need to remove that stupid characteristic before we introduce them to more wealth, or else they'll just do dumb shit with it. Like they mainly do now.

Great idea. The land not needed by punjabi families can be sold to the indian govt so they can set up the collectives they so desperately want, farmed by dopey sikhs with no aspiration beyond being a simpleton. Has it ever occured to anyone why there tends to be more intelligent people in more developed nations but not so much in the rural 3rd world? No? Well think about it.

You are so off the ball on this point it is unbelievable. I've met a few VERY clever whites from rural England who smash it academically in technology, arts, sciences.

You know why, because they have the leisure and time to really stretch themselves intellectually in their slow paced environments and have access to books, literature etc and are encouraged along those ways.

If our pendus were simply given higher aspirations, other than imagining themselves to be 'sardars' and acting on some bullshit fantasies, they could do this too. But you probably know yourself, many rural Panjabis have an aversion to real education, really bettering themselves. Sure they'll do it raise their status, try and get a fancy job, or improve marriage prospects and again, try and exalt their status over others in a very egocentric way. But the concept of education to simply improve oneself and one's society just doesn't exist amongst us. Instead you will almost invariably get pendus covering their tracks by quoting bani (out of context) to put down education and educated people.

Things have to flow in a chronological, sequential order for us to improve. Jumping to a later stage without nailing an earlier one often just simply turns a perceived advantage into a disadvantage in the long scope of things. Look at us with the so called recent 'Green revolution' and even the massive funds our faith generates in donations. We had plenty of wealth, prosperity, but we didn't have the worldlywiseness (duniyadhari) to use it to strengthen and improve our society. Look at the net result. Pollution, drug addiction, foeticide, mass exodus etc. etc . etc.

Right now the emphasis should be on turning us from a shallow, savage, materialistic, soulless, egocentric community into a cohesive, hardworking, intelligent, disciplined, morally upright people. If you analyse it, this is exactly what the earlier Gurus strove to achieve BEFORE they commenced on any grand scheme to take on the Moghuls. Really this Ravidasia thing is just one symptom (of many) that result from a failure to do this.

It's just common sense. The revolution we desperately need right now is a social one between ourselves. Then it must spread outside. That is EXACTLY how our Gurus did it.

Edited February 13, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

Again you're not linking together what I'm saying. Germany and Japan will get over their population issues. Just because you've read something somewhere doesnt matter, papers 50 years ago were filled with predictions on trends which never came true. The same is true for papers 100 years ago. Japan is a crowded island, which does not need a massive population for the same

I don't think you have tried to understand the article which I posted.Japan is facing shortage of younger population.It is a fact that older population need the support of younger to sustain them.In coming years Japan

may see Industries going to countries Like India ,vietnam , Bangladesh etc.

Again you miss my point. America wanted to turn both countries into agricultural economies. But a peasant society was more susceptible to communism, which forced america to allow both countries to develop.

Well I have read about it and I think it was idea of few people not of entire American Leaders.Germany already had investment of american businessmen.It had trained workforce which was working in Factories so Germany attracted investment

Punjab had the same thing with the British. They destroyed our factories, foundries and schools as well as most of the other defensive infrastructure in Punjab. They also confiscated all mechanical farm equipment in order to make farming more labour intensive

I don't think this comparison is right.Punjab did not have any kind of modern factories at the time of maharaja Ranjit singh. Also Punjab was muslim majority so One cannot say that Sikhs were the only victims of Britishers and whatever Destruction they did to economy of Punjab hurted more to muslims than Sikhs.Where they really dented us was they just tamed us and used us to Fight their wars.

Why the hell you think that the germans and japanese dont have it better than the sikhs is beyond me.

Of course they are better than us in economic sense but Do you really think shortage of money is the main problem of Sikh quom? Sikhs are still one of the prosperous communities of India ,what they are losing is their Religion ,their martial spirit ,their family values.Shortage of money is not something which is one of the major problem of sikhism at this time.

Is that true for all Punjabis though? Or even people from other states who would be willing to come and work in Punjab? Plenty of freshies work in sweatshops around the uk, they dont seem to mind.

People fromm other states migrate to Punjab because Punjabi's are not ready to work at the wage which these people are ready to work.also doing menial job in Punjab or even in India will reduce their izzat.On the other hand same people are ready to work same job in UK because 1 pound = 80 rupees .even if they send 3000 pounds in India it will become 2.5 lakh rupees which is very difficult to earn here in India

If farming is so good, why are punjabi farmers leaving the Punjab? The truth is that in the rest of the world farms have got bigger and bigger due to technology and the people growing up on farms deciding to do something they're good at or interested in rather than something they are used to

Punjabi Farmers are leaving Punjab because they want the lifestyle what people in UK ,USA or canada are getting.When their relatives visit Punjab they see the wealth in their hand, then they too start dreaming that they will earn same amount of wealth if they move to abroad.

Even if you industrialize Punjab with third world wage rate you will see more people from other states of India migrating to Punjab and working at cheap wage rate rather than sikhs working in it.Of course you will see Price rise of land around industries which Punjabi's will use to sell and then again moving to abroad.

Edited February 13, 2011 by kdsingh80

[HSD1]

That's where you and me differ, you see it as improving their lifestyles yet even a cursory study of non whites who adopt white culture styles around the globe indicates that doing this leads to all manner of psychological, social and physical problems. What the people are aspiring to may well be 'modern', but that doesn't mean that it is an improvement. It is plainly maya (illusion) that is making them think that it is. What we need to be asking is why we aren't putting more energy into developing our own models for progression that fit into our own native religious framework (without the dogma). Of course there are good ideas we can learn from the west, but a lot of their ideas are now proving to be VERY detrimental to society and the environment. I'm just suggesting more creativity and discernment on our part that's all. Industrialisation is a part of the solution but over industrialising a tiny area like Panjab will only shift the environmental problems from a rural source to an industrial one. Sorry but there are no simple clear solutions here.

Urrgghh. You were the one who raised improving lifestyles in your earlier post about it being linked to jattism and punjabism. My point is that it is not just unique to those subgroups. It's hard to have a discussion when people are not seeing what is being talked about and jumping on individual sentences. The rest of your paragraph makes sense even though you may have confused the effects of imperialism on colonies with countries out for self determination. As for industrialisation, everything in moderation. Punjab needs industry. I am not advocating factories all over the place or corporate irresponsibility. Unless I overtly say I want these, can people just use their brains and know that the implementation of these ideas needs a bit of sense. Not all of us are that basic that we need every consequence pointed out to us, maybe just maybe, the person already knows.

There is no way of telling what direction our society would have gone in under those circs. To presume they would have taken the industrial revolution route is presumptuous to an extreme. What way do you imagine our society would have gone?

I know because that is the way it goes: adapt or die. History is the same all over the world. Once Italy was a collection of states, so was Germany, Japan used to be a bunch of Shogunates, England was a collection of shires, china was divided into 5 states. Maharaja ranjit singh just did to the Punjab what others had done to their respective countries: unified, centralised power and built up the nation state. If we had not built up our army like we did in the early 19th century then the british would have invaded sooner. If you dont agree, please explain why.

Unfortunately for us our politics was rubbish with a republican yet easily bought Khalsa on one side and a pissed off aristocracy on the other. In other countries this situation led to constitutional monarchies. For us it didnt as the british intervened. Game over.

What alternative would there have been if we hadnt had land reform or industrialised? We would have been overrun by those who had, whether it was the brits or someone else. Can you give me any example in history where an agricultural state has beaten an industrialised power? Now you might ask why does this matter. If you cant defend your nation state then you will be subject to those who can invade and rule you. It's that simple.

In regard to your comments about the Indians. Well, we are yet to see where whiteys kartootaan are going to lead them in the long run. But from where I am standing it looks pretty bleak for them. Their sun is setting and pretty soon they will either have to learn to humble themselves globally or get into a REALLY dirty, ugly war outside. Time will tell. But it certainly isn't sunny for them. God knows where their collective karma is going to lead them. The main thing they have is their ability to cause mass destruction with their weapons.

Talk about over simplification. In europe all we are seeing is the same thing that the arabs went through 500 years ago: collapsing empires due to the inability to control world trade. Even then Germany and Russia wont be too affected. Britain and France on the other hand have a long way to fall considering how well off they once were. As for the north americans, well they have plenty left in them. I wonder how many times sikhs have sat around thinking something will happen just because of 'how it looks from here', without taking into account trends or a variety of sources.

I think some of your theories are over projections and weird and don't really take into account the very nature of our people (especially back home). But they are interesting to hear none the less. You'd better get used to people questioning what you say, and offering alternative viewpoints.

I dont have a problem with people dissecting what I say. What I dont like is trying to explain the same thing again and again for people to take one thing they dont quite get and go off at a tangent.

I'm not saying that YOU are advocating those things. What I'm saying is that when you introduce modernisation and wealth to our people they seem to totally abuse it through showing off, getting high drunk, fancy celebrations etc. Thinking logically/chronologically we need to remove that stupid characteristic before we introduce them to more wealth, or else they'll just do dumb shit with it. Like they mainly do now.

And I'm saying that the present conditions and world wont let you get very far. Chicken or egg?

You are so off the ball on this point it is unbelievable. I've met a few VERY clever whites from rural England who smash it academically in technology, arts, sciences.

Your ability to misread my post is even more unbelievable. I said 'Has it ever occured to anyone why there tends to be more intelligent people in more developed nations but not so much in the rural 3rd world? Is urban england a developed nation and rural england part of the 3rd world? No. I was comparing countries. Why the hell you thing that people from farms in england are 3rd world and people from cities represent the developed nations I dont know. I think you need to read a bit deeper into what I'm saying. PEOPLE FROM RURAL ENGLAND HAVE THE SAME ACCESS TO EDUCATION AS THE REST OF THE ENGLISH. Do people from the rural 3rd world have access to good education? No. So why is it that developed nations have better education systems and clever people? Could it be, a very, very, very slim possibility that part of their development led to this system and the need for clever people?!

If our pendus were simply given higher aspirations, other than imagining themselves to be 'sardars' and acting on some bullshit fantasies, they could do this too. But you probably know yourself, many rural Panjabis have an aversion to real education, really bettering themselves. Sure they'll do it raise their status, try and get a fancy job, or improve marriage prospects and again, try and exalt their status over others in a very egocentric way. But the concept of education to simply improve oneself and one's society just doesn't exist amongst us.

So all 20 million sikhs are like this? There is massive diversity in each nation. Having the majority of us on small farms doesnt help with getting people educated. At the moment we are just leeching off the whites or hindus. Our fortunes follow their fortunes. Making sikhs more spiritual or self aware will be pointless if they dont have the institutions to be pushed to their limits. I'm not saying that my idea of change will turn all young sikhs into people who follow their strengths or interests, but it will give those who want to a chance. Even when we were sovereign most sikhs just did what they thought would be 'good' jobs. If you want to talk about the times of our Gurus then it was different back then - we were much smaller and tighter as a nation. This is the 21st century where things are a bit more serious, running around like its still the 1600s wont help anyone in the end.

Right now the emphasis should be on turning us from a shallow, savage, materialistic, soulless, egocentric community into a cohesive, hardworking, intelligent, disciplined, morally upright people. If you analyse it, this is exactly what the earlier Gurus strove to achieve BEFORE they commenced on any grand scheme to take on the Moghuls. Really this Ravidasia thing is just one symptom (of many) that result from a failure to do this.

20 million people. You wont even get close to a majority of that. Especially without the infrastructure of a community/nation/state.

Things have to flow in a chronological, sequential order for us to improve. Jumping to a later stage without nailing an earlier one often just simply turns a perceived advantage into a disadvantage in the long scope of things. Look at us with the so called recent 'Green revolution' and even the massive funds our faith generates in donations. We had plenty of wealth, prosperity, but we didn't have the worldlywiseness (duniyadhari) to use it to strengthen and improve our society. Look at the net result. Pollution, drug addiction, foeticide, mass exodus etc. etc . etc.

And the rest of the world will be happy to just sit back and let us sort ourselves out?

Instead you will almost invariably get pendus covering their tracks by quoting bani (out of context) to put down education and educated people.

All the people I have met like this come from religous families, not rural ones.

Edited February 13, 2011 by HSD 2

[HSD1]

I don't think you have tried to understand the article which I posted.Japan is facing shortage of younger population.It is a fact that older population need the support of younger to sustain them.In coming years Japan

may see Industries going to countries Like India ,vietnam , Bangladesh etc.

I understood it. You on the other hand dont have much sense. Just because it is newsworthy doesnt make it what will happen. Go and read predictions 50 or 100 years ago and see how off they are from today's realities or what happened. Read this article:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/robotics/2008-03-01-robots_N.htm/

Well I have read about it and I think it was idea of few people not of entire American Leaders.Germany already had investment of american businessmen.It had trained workforce which was working in Factories so Germany attracted investment

I dont know where you got that idea from but again you're wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

I don't think this comparison is right.Punjab did not have any kind of modern factories at the time of maharaja Ranjit singh. Also Punjab was muslim majority so One cannot say that Sikhs were the only victims of Britishers and whatever Destruction they did to economy of Punjab hurted more to muslims than Sikhs.Where they really dented us was they just tamed us and used us to Fight their wars.

So you're saying we didnt have any modern factories or foundries then? So can you tell me where we got all our cannons from? Where were the uniforms for all the troops made? Where was gunpowder produced? Where was the ammunition for all the cannons and guns made? We did have factories and foundries that were similar or better than the ones in europe at the same time - not like factories that are around today. We would never have been able to build the world's greatest army of the early 19th century without the industrial base to support it. When the EIC gave 2 howitzers to Maharaja Ranjit Singh just before his death, the sikh artillery officer who received them scoffed that he had an entire gun park of bigger howitzers. Were did they all come from?

As for the muslims, why did they side with the british in the 2nd war then? The Khalsa found it couldnt even traverse the parts of the country which were predominantly muslim because so many of them had joined uprisings instigated by british political agents and led by british officers. The fact we treated them like shit and we werent muslim added to their sense of shame.

Of course they are better than us in economic sense but Do you really think shortage of money is the main problem of Sikh quom? Sikhs are still one of the prosperous communities of India ,what they are losing is their Religion ,their martial spirit ,their family values.Shortage of money is not something which is one of the major problem of sikhism at this time.

It's not just the money, but money plays a part. The size of their economy lets them build institutions, carry out research, change society, build armies and all the other stuff that they need. Not all change in a nation can come from the grass roots. Sometimes it has to come from the top-down. If you play the grass roots card all the time, the people at the top who cause these problems will do the same things they have done before to beat us. It doesnt matter if we are more spiritual or more united (though it might help) because they can just play the attrition card or buy us off. Our so called leaders and the heavy handed tactics of nonsikhs show this. Trying to maintain the values you talk about in the modern world will be near impossible whilst you're still in the system.

People fromm other states migrate to Punjab because Punjabi's are not ready to work at the wage which these people are ready to work.also doing menial job in Punjab or even in India will reduce their izzat.On the other hand same people are ready to work same job in UK because 1 pound = 80 rupees .even if they send 3000 pounds in India it will become 2.5 lakh rupees which is very difficult to earn here in India

Economic migrants can also be a source of new converts. But as long as most sikhs are on farms we wont even have the manpower to do anything.

Punjabi Farmers are leaving Punjab because they want the lifestyle what people in UK ,USA or canada are getting.When their relatives visit Punjab they see the wealth in their hand, then they too start dreaming that they will earn same amount of wealth if they move to abroad.

Even if you industrialize Punjab with third world wage rate you will see more people from other states of India migrating to Punjab and working at cheap wage rate rather than sikhs working in it.Of course you will see Price rise of land around industries which Punjabi's will use to sell and then again moving to abroad.

So what's the problem?